Rock vs. Country vs. Rap

[Bubba Wheels]

Channel surfing earlier and saw yet another new country song very pro-military regarding our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan (something about a letter a dad sends to his son) and contrasted this with the total non-support and actually hostility that rock and rap are cranking out to our overall involvment in general (M&M and such). Any reflection regarding this?

Is country just naturally more patriotic than rock or rap? And if so, why?

[gottimd]

Well then how do you categorize that new country/rock/rap black cowboy that is out now, Cowboy Troy? He is combining all 3 genre's.

[Franklinnoble]

Simple. People who listen to country generally support the war. Pro-war country albums make money.

People who listen to rock and rap are generally against the war. Anti-war albums in that genre make money.

No big moral statement here. It's just money.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

No big moral statement here. It's just money.

Yup.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Simple. People who listen to country generally support the war. Pro-war country albums make money.

People who listen to rock and rap are generally against the war. Anti-war albums in that genre make money.

No big moral statement here. It's just money.

Makes sense to me, but is the divide really that wide? And does it just keep getting wider between the two sides? I mean in all things.

[Ksyrup]

I think it goes much deeper than just support for "the war." Southerners are more conservative and also tend to show their patriotism more. There are tons of patriotic country songs that have nothing to do with the war. This is just an extension of that.

As an aside, I thought from the title this was going to be a takeoff on the "how many 5 year olds can you take?" thread. I'd grab country by the redneck and pound the shit out of rap.

[stkelly52]

Remember when the Dixie Chicks expressed thier disapproval of the war several stations stopped playing their music. People who listen to country tend to very much be strong conservative Republicans.

That said there are not many country songs that actually supports the war [only one comes to mind (Have You Forgotten) and it actually supports the action in Afganistan]. Most of them are expressing their support for the soldiers involved, which is different.

[Lathum]

I think when it comes to rap alot of these artists and their fan base grew up defying authority so they naturally rebel against anything the government does.

When it comes to rock I think they are pretty nuetral, I don't hear to many songs that make an opinion either way.

[Desnudo]

Country has always had more family oriented, traditional values-type stuff. Look at the Grand Old Opry. Patriotism in the songs isn't anything new. There's an old classic (1969) by Merle Haggard, about an "Okie From Muskogee" that's a good example.

[Klinglerware]

I would add that the artists are also a product of their roots...

Many of the country artists tend to be from more conservative parts of the country. Country artists that aren't from the south or mountain west (Mary-Chapin Carpenter and Shania Twain come to mind) seem to avoid singing about the war altogether.

Rap artists tend to be from inner cities that tend to be much more liberal...

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Well then how do you categorize that new country/rock/rap black cowboy that is out now, Cowboy Troy? He is combining all 3 genre's.

He's no Beck.

[Raiders Army]

He's no Kid Rock either.

[tanglewood]

Kid Rock's no Beck.

[judicial clerk]

I don't know about rock kicking ass on country. I witnessed a confrontation between the two and country won.

I was at my county fair. My friends and I were at the grandstand watching some event. Sitting right below my frineds and I were a family that consisted of a farmer (skoal ring, john deer type of hat, western shirt and blue jeans), his wife, and two daughters. in front of them was a walkway with a railing.

Halfway through the event, these rocker dudes com and lean on the railing in front of us. They are all decked out in denim and leather with long hair and goatees and tatoos. half of the six or so guys don't have their shirts on.

So the farmer and his family can't see the arena any more. So the farmer gets up and asks the guys if they could move or sit down b/c he can't see. Farmer asks in a friendly way. The rockers kind of ignore him, but maybe one says "sure we will move in a minute" or something. Now there is plenty of seating in the area right in front of the rockers, but none of them move.

The girls start complaining to the farmer and he and his wife are whispering and the farmer gets up and asks the leader of the rockers to please move. It turns into more of a statement because the rockers kind of ignore him again.

Farmer goes back to his seat, and now he is starting to get upset. The rockers are talking amongst themselves, and taking their shirts on and off, and doing things rockers do, all the while completely oblivious to how rude they are being. My friends and I are about a quarter liquored up and we notice that the farmer is getiing quite agitated. We talk amongst ourselves and decide that if the shit goes down, we are going to jump in on this farmers side.

So finally the farmer has had enough. He gets up, goes over to the lead rocker, says "you are in my families way, thank you for sitting down." While he says this, he grabs the lead rocker, turns him to face the stage, and pushes him onto the bench seating. The lead rocker acted all pissed and he was looking around as if to find out who had just manhandled him. He looked everywhere but at the farmer, who was ready to go. Also of importance, the rocker did not stand back up, but sat in his seat until him and his rocker friends left.

If they were in prison the rocker would have been the country farmer's "bitch"

No word on if the farmer and his family were stabbed to death in the parking lot.

[Raiders Army]

Beck's no Kid Rock.

[Ksyrup]

They're both nothing special.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Beck's no Kid Rock.

Becks Kids Rock, no?

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

They're both nothing special.

Sez you.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

They're both nothing special.

I can't speak for the Beck fans, but at least Kid Rock was in a major motion picture...Joe Dirt with that enormous Hollywood superstar, David Spade.

[Ksyrup]

Kid Rock was in a movie with Denzel Washington. I never saw the movie, but David Ryan Harris has a couple of songs on the soundtrack.

[AgustusM]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Country has always had more family oriented, traditional values-type stuff. Look at the Grand Old Opry. Patriotism in the songs isn't anything new. There's an old classic (1969) by Merle Haggard, about an "Okie From Muskogee" that's a good example.

a better Merle example (at least relative to Patriotism) is "The Fightin' Side Of Me"

Your basic 1960's Silent Majority Anthem

I hear people talkin' bad,
About the way we have to live here in this country,
Harpin' on the wars we fight,
An' gripin' 'bout the way things oughta be.
An' I don't mind 'em switchin' sides,
An' standin' up for things they believe in.
When they're runnin' down my country, man,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

I read about some squirrely guy,
Who claims, he just don't believe in fightin'.
An' I wonder just how long,
The rest of us can count on bein' free.
They love our milk an' honey,
But they preach about some other way of livin'.
When they're runnin' down my country, hoss,
They're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

Yeah, walkin' on the fightin' side of me.
Runnin' down the way of life,
Our fightin' men have fought and died to keep.
If you don't love it, leave it:
Let this song I'm singin' be a warnin'.
If you're runnin' down my country, man,
You're walkin' on the fightin' side of me.

[Cringer]

I dunno, is rock really anti-war?


Propaghandi - Stick The Fucking Flag Up Your Goddam Ass, You Sonofabitch

my father told me "son, it's futile to resist,
You can topple ideology but not the armies they enlist."
I questioned the intentions of the boy scouts chanting war.
"well that's the sound of freedom, son" he said.
(free to say no more.)
But wait a minute dad, did you actually say freedom?
Well, if you're dumb enough to vote,
You're fuckin dumb enough to believe him.
Cuz if this country is so goddam free.
Then i can burn your fucking flag wherever i damn well please,
And i will stick the fucking flag up your ass
I carried their anthem, convinces it was mine.
Rhymeless, unreasoned conjecture kept me in line.
But then i stood back and wondered what the fuck had they done to me.
Made accomplice to all that i'd promised i would never fucking be.
Never be.
You carry their anthem convinces that it's yours.
Invitation to honor. invitation to war.
Bette midler now assumes sainthood.
Romanticize murder for moral.
Tie a yellow ribbon round the oak tree my friend,
And "gee wally, that's swell!"
Fuck the troops to hell!

Ok, maybe sometimes.....

[Young Drachma]

I love when people - this happens a lot on FOX - when they're trying to point out how bad a certain type of music is, find the most obscure and generally bad group in that genre and say, "See, see...that's why xyz" is bad. No one argues that country doesn't promote all kinds of awful things, because that's "okay." But with rock and rap, it's always a problem, since those forms of music have always been steeped in rebellion and are largely the fair of youngins - even if older people listen to it.

I don't think it's a big statement either, no more than say, PGA tour golfers voting for the GOP because they want less taxes so they get to keep more of their money. It's all about catering to those who cater to you.

[Bubba Wheels]

Since I posted this originally, I have seen both another country song (They Also Serve) about the families saying goodbye to their dads, sons, fathers as they go to war...And AOL's new post about Springsteen's new anti-war song (l'll try to post the lyrics to it.) Just seems to reinforce my initial thought about this divide.

[Bubba Wheels]

http://music.channel.aol.com/franchise/firstlisten.adp

[Cringer]

I just put "pro war songs" into google....first thing to pop up is this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5174757/

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Country music artists are hardly united in their support of the war in Iraq — but you’d never know it from listening to the radio.

While Toby Keith, Darryl Worley and Charlie Daniels have scored hits with patriotic, war-themed songs, others such as Willie Nelson, Merle Haggard and Nanci Griffith released anti-war, or at least questioning, songs that went nowhere.

“Country radio does enough research that they understand listeners are supportive of the military in Iraq and just don’t want to get involved with those songs,” said John Hart, president of Nashville-based Bullseye Marketing Research.

“I work with 32 stations, and I have not seen one test any of these anti-war songs.”

Patriotic tunes on the wane?
But the patriotic tunes that were everywhere at the beginning of the military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq have slowed. John Michael Montgomery’s touching “Letters from Home” is the only current chart hit with a war theme, and it is neither an angry call to arms nor a love letter to America.

Hart believes the flag-waving songs reached a saturation point. He also says the continuing hostilities in Iraq and recent prison abuse scandal may have tempered the enthusiasm expressed early in the conflict.

“I think right now the labels and radio feel they have come to a line in the sand where they need to slow down,” Hart said. “And the artists are hesitant to release anything right now that they think might be overkill.”

Patriotism is a strong undercurrent to this week’s Country Music Association Music Festival, which runs Thursday through Sunday in Nashville.

In addition to donating tickets to soldiers in the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell, CMA will also hold a reunion of entertainers who performed for troops in Iraq last December. Guests at the Friday event include Worley, whose “Have You Forgotten” remains a conservative rallying cry, as well as liberal comedian and author Al Franken and “JAG” actress Karri Turner.

Franken said the backlash against the Dixie Chicks after lead singer Natalie Maines criticized President Bush on a London stage last year had “a chilling effect on what people felt they could or couldn’t say” in country music.

“And that’s too bad,” Franken said. “I think people should be free to express their politics.”

Worley, too, cited the Dixie Chicks’ incident.

“They made a pretty strong statement about the president, and we haven’t heard much of them on country radio either. There is a silent majority in this country, and it is a whole lot stronger than people might think.”

No place on the radio for alt-country
Country artists are regarded as more conservative than those in other genres, but there are exceptions. Alt-country icons Emmylou Harris, Steve Earle, Rosanne Cash and Lucinda Williams lent their names to a petition by the protest group Musicians United to Win Without War. Respected songwriters Rodney Crowell and The Mavericks’ Raul Malo have been frank about their opposition to the president. A new group called the Music Row Democrats formed this year to give a political voice to country songwriters, musicians, producers and record executives.

Still, the few country songs that have express reservations about Iraq have failed to click.

Worley believes some of that has to do with the artists releasing them, noting that veteran singers such as Nelson and Haggard have had trouble cracking the charts with any kind of song in recent years.

But market researcher Hart thinks it is more than that. He says an anti-war song by a hot contemporary artist would fizzle as well because of the conservative tilt of country audiences.

“I’ve been in country music since 1972, and I think every conflict is that way,” said Hart, a Vietnam veteran. “Every time we bomb somebody it’s ‘Hell yeah!’ Let’s kick their ... ’ That’s where country music is coming from.”

Singer Kenny Rogers, whose group The First Edition had one of the most poignant hits of the Vietnam era with “Ruby,” a dark tale about a crippled Vietnam veteran whose woman is cheating on him, says the political climate today is much different than in the 1960s and ’70s.

“People are afraid to write about it, and people are afraid to play it,” Rogers said. “Everybody is so afraid now to be politically correct.

“I don’t know of a successful song that has said ‘We need to stop this,”’ he said. “But I do think if one were written well and had an honest thought process behind it and was not strictly politically driven, radio would play it.”

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Come to think of it, the jazz industry seems to be avoiding the war altogether...

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

Come to think of it, the jazz industry seems to be avoiding the war altogether...

Who do those bastards think they are, Switzerland?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I can't speak for the Beck fans, but at least Kid Rock was in a major motion picture...Joe Dirt with that enormous Hollywood superstar, David Spade.

Beck was in an episode of Futurama, does that count?

[Ksyrup]

I've never understood why Beck is so popular - I can't stand his music, personally - but now that I've learned he's a scientologist...geez, what more could I learn about him that would turn me off of his music any more than I already am?

[Calis]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I've never understood why Beck is so popular - I can't stand his music, personally - but now that I've learned he's a scientologist...geez, what more could I learn about him that would turn me off of his music any more than I already am?

Oh wow, didn't know he was a scientologist.

I'm the same way though, I always hear people raving about him, and a lot of the times it's people who I generally agree with musically, but I don't get it.

I just can't get into it. Tried time and time again, and nothing.

Still I give the guy more credit than I do Kid Rock.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Calis

Still I give the guy more credit than I do Kid Rock.

Well that kinda goes without saying...! I give Biz Markie more credit than Kid Rock.

[Gallifrey]

It isn't that rock bands don't speak out in support. They just may have a different way of doing it than country artist.
Check out track 13 "USA Reply".

http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/readysetgo

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I've never understood why Beck is so popular

Cause people like his music, perhaps?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Cause people like his music, perhaps?

Yes, but why? And why do people buy into his "I'm such a nerd I'm hip" act? It would be one thing if it was divorced from his music, but it comes through in the music as well, which just disgusts me. He's to dorks what Marilyn Manson is to goths. The guy almost singlehandedly brought back 70's fashion in the mid-to-late 90's. That's unforgiveable.