Barry making an ass of himself

[Eaglesfan27]

He is doing what I think is a live news conference right now on ESPN. I've always been fairly indifferent to him, but he is coming across really badly today. I'm finding myself actively disliking him now.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

Actually, now it appears that this news conference might have been earlier today.

[Franklinnoble]

Slugger sidesteps questions, chastises media
Associated Press

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. – Barry Bonds angrily sidestepped questions about his role in baseball's steroid scandal upon his arrival at spring training Tuesday, pronouncing himself weary but ready for another season.

In the 40-year-old Bonds' first public comments since his grand jury testimony was leaked to the San Francisco Chronicle and reported in December, he had nothing to say about it, citing legal constrictions. But he had harsh words for the media and fans still consumed by the circumstances of his record-setting home run binge.

"You guys are like re-running stories," Bonds said to the huge group of reporters in attendance. "This is old stuff. It's like watching 'Sanford and Son.' ... It's almost comical, basically."

Bonds, who has 703 homers, also is on the verge of catching Babe Ruth on baseball's career list.

"The sad part, I just want to go out there and play baseball," Bonds said. "I don't even care about the record part so much. The best is whatever you get out of yourself. That's all I'm trying to do."

According to that grand jury testimony, Bonds testified in December 2003 that he used a clear substance and a cream given to him by a trainer who was indicted in a steroid-distribution ring, but said he didn't know they were steroids.

Bonds repeatedly refused to speak directly about it, but he castigated everyone from the media to Jose Canseco, whose recently released book described a rampant culture of steroid abuse in baseball.

"I don't know Canseco, besides hello and goodbye. I don't put any weight into what he says," Bonds said. "Mark McGwire was a big boy in college. To me, Canseco, you've got to come with a whole lot more. ... It's to make a buck, that's all it is.

"I don't know Jose. I was better than Jose then, and I've been better than him his whole career. If he wants to go make money, go ahead. ... For somebody who brags about what he did, I don't see any of your records."

[MikeVick7]

He's such a bitter man.

[Greyroofoo]

must be the steroids

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

"You guys are like re-running stories," Bonds said to the huge group of reporters in attendance. "This is old stuff. It's like watching 'Sanford and Son.' ... It's almost comical, basically."

Where's SkyDog?

[Swaggs]

Does he look visibly smaller?

[Draft Dodger]

he still deserves some props though - after all, he's hit more homers than any other steroid user in the history of the game.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

He sounds like a man who is very insecure about how his testicles have shrunk to almost nothing due to excessive steroid usage.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

"You guys are like re-running stories," Bonds said to the huge group of reporters in attendance. "This is old stuff. It's like watching 'Sanford and Son.' ... It's almost comical, basically."

Is there anything more fun than watching an athelete play the "there's no story here" card? Apparently there are only 100 people in the world who care about this story, and they all happen to be reporters covering Giants spring training.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Does he look visibly smaller?

Looked alot less bloated in the face to me, but maybe I'm just looking for it now.

BTW - one reporter asked him directly if he took steriods and a Giants staff person stepped in and said 'he's not answering that'.

[KWhit]

*

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

he still deserves some props though - after all, he's hit more homers than any other steroid user in the history of the game.

Classic.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by KWhit

*

Agreed. If they can pull that shit on Roger Maris (and he did NOTHING wrong), Barry ought to have one.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Agreed. If they can pull that shit on Roger Maris (and he did NOTHING wrong), Barry ought to have one.

Bonds fan and all I can't argue with that.

[sooner333]

Who is to say that steroids haven't been used in earlier eras...my dad heard about steroids when he was in middle school in the 50's, and when he asked his gym teacher, he got really defensive.

Also, I'm not trying to defend Bonds or any other steroid user. But, I would like to know if steroids were against the rules in baseball. I know they didn't test, but was it against the rules.

Either way, I for one am against an asterisk. History will always remember the situation of the athletes of the 90's and early 2000's. Ruth doesn't have asterisks, but people still talk about how he didn't compete against the black athlete. Gibson doesn't have an asterisk because the mound has since been lowered, and McClain doesn't get 5 games knocked off of his Win total either. Look, technoligy advances and rules are changed and altered in response. We have better capabilities of protection, allowing batters to more fearlessly crowd the plate. We have legal supplements that athletes of the past had no access to. It's a changing world and a changing game. I'm a traditionalist more so that a progressive in baseball, but at the same time, we can't say that the only thing that changed between Ruth and Bonds, or even Aaron and Bonds is steroids.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Also, I'm not trying to defend Bonds or any other steroid user. But, I would like to know if steroids were against the rules in baseball. I know they didn't test, but was it against the rules.

Possessing steroids is a crime (unless prescribed by a doctor for official medical purposes.) Anyone that benefited from an illegal activity should not be viewed as the greatest ever. At the very least, Barry deserves an Asterik.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Possessing steroids is a crime (unless prescribed by a doctor for official medical purposes.) Anyone that benefited from an illegal activity should not be viewed as the greatest ever. At the very least, Barry deserves an Asterik.

So, should someone who illegally obtains adderol to study for a test have his grade stricken? I have never done that, but know some who have, with and without a perscription. Just where do you end up drawing the line. I mean, right now the only thing we have is illegally obtained testimony that says that Bonds unknowingly took the cream and the clear. We can guess that he probably did take it, and probably willingly. But I could probably also guess that McGwire, Sosa, Greg Vaughn, and Brady Anderson did as well...what do we do with them? I say, forget the past, get a hard steroid testing policy (like the olympics), and give people at most two strikes with the first strike a year suspension without pay.

Also, steroids or not, he isn't the best ever.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Possessing steroids is a crime (unless prescribed by a doctor for official medical purposes.) Anyone that benefited from an illegal activity should not be viewed as the greatest ever. At the very least, Barry deserves an Asterik.

Were amphetamines legal back when every player took them?

[Swaggs]

Just saw the press conference on ESPN. Bonds' face did look slimmer to me, as well.

Asteriks are such a stupid idea. I love stats and records as much as anyone, but the players play the game and produce the stats. They are what they are. Who am I, or you, or a sportswriter to interpret them differently based on whatever factors are currently going on? Should we put an ampersand for players who played during WWI and WWII because the talent pool was thinned out? Maybe put an "@" by players who used "greenies." And put plus signs by teams that may have won World Series with players who used "greenies" on their rosters. I just don't see how you can change stats--they are what they are.

[Sharpieman]

lol, his face didn't look slimmer at all. He looks the same. If you've ever seen Barry with his shirt off, you knows hes kinda fat. Although he does have muscle on his arms and shoulders. I think you guys are trying to hard. I would endorse an * if he sucks this year. Then it would be obvious that he used steroids more than a couple of times. I would just wait it out, see what happens this year and then make conclusions about how hes the only one in the MLB and only his stats should have a *.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by sooner333

So, should someone who illegally obtains adderol to study for a test have his grade stricken? I have never done that, but know some who have, with and without a perscription. Just where do you end up drawing the line. I mean, right now the only thing we have is illegally obtained testimony that says that Bonds unknowingly took the cream and the clear. We can guess that he probably did take it, and probably willingly. But I could probably also guess that McGwire, Sosa, Greg Vaughn, and Brady Anderson did as well...what do we do with them? I say, forget the past, get a hard steroid testing policy (like the olympics), and give people at most two strikes with the first strike a year suspension without pay.

Also, steroids or not, he isn't the best ever.

Using Adderall is a crime if done without a doctor's prescription. Adderall is abused by thousands if not tens of thousands of college students. I don't think they should have their grades counting if they abused stimulants (any non-medical use is abuse.) Why should I or any student who didn't cheat and use stimulants be compared unfairly to those students who did cheat by committing a crime?

I think Bonds took Steroids knowingly. I don't believe any world class athlete would dare to allow substances to be given to him without knowing what that substance was. I also think McGwire, Sosa, and Anderson all likely cheated as well. I think the power numbers of the entire era need an asterik and this has seriously dampened my joy of baseball.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

I'm not saying that an official asterik has to be placed. I think in my mind (and I would guess quite a few other fans), there is an asterik. The fact is that this is stain on baseball even if there are plenty of people who don't care.

[Axxon]

Hey, would any of you guys object to using an asterisk instead?

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

[EagleFan]

Why does anyone think that he would stop usnig them? He is at the end of his career and if he is using them, and they are what has helped him keep his career going, why would he stop using them.

The benefit would be greater if he wer to take his chances. If he were to stop and then suddenly turn out a Giambi type of season, his career would have a permanent black mark. Everyone would point to that and say he didn;t deserve the numbers.

If he gets caught, he retires. His supporters will then continue the whole, he still needed the skill to do it crap (though not taking into accuont the fact that his last X number of years have included no extended slumps due to being worn down, which any player not taking steroids has happen. Especially odd for someone his age to not have any of those instances).

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Hey, would any of you guys object to using an asterisk instead?

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

My bad.

[SnowMan]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Hey, would any of you guys object to using an asterisk instead?

Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine.

One of our instructors at work calls them "astridges." Now THAT'S annoying.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Why does anyone think that he would stop usnig them? He is at the end of his career and if he is using them, and they are what has helped him keep his career going, why would he stop using them.

The benefit would be greater if he wer to take his chances. If he were to stop and then suddenly turn out a Giambi type of season, his career would have a permanent black mark. Everyone would point to that and say he didn;t deserve the numbers.

If he gets caught, he retires. His supporters will then continue the whole, he still needed the skill to do it crap (though not taking into accuont the fact that his last X number of years have included no extended slumps due to being worn down, which any player not taking steroids has happen. Especially odd for someone his age to not have any of those instances).

I've always said that I really think that he wouldn't have done it voluntarily or at least knowingly. Maybe that makes me naive. But, I really don't believe that the godson of Willie Mays and son of Bobby Bonds - who grew up respecting the sport and around the greats, would feel the need to knowingly cheat.

If he uses steroids now - and I don't believe he is - he'd take the risk of getting caught and then having them castigate him. Does he care about that? Hell no. But he does care about his family and I doubt he'd want to see them go through that, having his name dragged in the mud.

And even if he did, all the people we're talking about aren't playing baseball right now. So, if McGwire, Canseco and Giambi (well, he's playing..but that's nominal at best) were playing, then you could argue that it's helped him be a better player than say, the rest of MLB. But if so many players are supposedly juiced, why aren't they doing what Barry has?

Because he's better. Not best of all time. But better.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

Were amphetamines legal back when every player took them?

Of course not. But since Mickey Mantle who was beloved took them, he gets a pass, but Bonds, who isn't liked, gets raked over the coals. Forget the fact that both greenies in the 50s and steroids in the 90s were not banned, even though they were illegal.

If you put an asterisk by Bonds, be consistent. Go put one on Mantle and Mays and the rest of the 50s and 60s crew.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course not. But since Mickey Mantle who was beloved took them, he gets a pass, but Bonds, who isn't liked, gets raked over the coals. Forget the fact that both greenies in the 50s and steroids in the 90s were not banned, even though they were illegal.

If you put an asterisk by Bonds, be consistent. Go put one on Mantle and Mays and the rest of the 50s and 60s crew.

thank you, they should put one on McGuire too because of the stuff he took.

[Bad-example]

I will continue rooting for Bonds. I enjoy following the Giants so much that I refuse to allow these rumors to taint the experience.

I will let history judge Barry and cheer like hell every time he comes to the plate.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I will continue rooting for Bonds. I enjoy following the Giants so much that I refuse to allow these rumors to taint the experience.

I will let history judge Barry and cheer like hell every time he comes to the plate.

Why not? It's always fun to root for the bad guy.

Bonds is a cheater and a first-rate prick, and I won't hesitate to say so. I don't want my kids to idolize that asswad or grow up to be like him, so I sure as hell won't root for him.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I will continue rooting for Bonds. I enjoy following the Giants so much that I refuse to allow these rumors to taint the experience.

I will let history judge Barry and cheer like hell every time he comes to the plate.

I will too and I'm not a Giants fan. Bonds is a helluva talent and always has been.

Everyone knows that steroids have been a part of baseball for a long time. MLB buried their head in the sand. MLBPA did the same. I think that Ken Caminiti was right - at least 50% of the guys were/are on something. I also think that players in the 50s were on amphetamines. Players in the 70s on coke. Players in the 30s didn't have to face black players. So on and so forth. Baseball has always been this way. I just accept it.

[oykib]

There was never any asterisk on Maris' record.

Really, the only story here is if Bonds and his BALCO boys were the only players using.

If the number is even 20 or 30%, which doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility, then the real story is that MLB covered this up in order to juice the hitting stats and attendance.

But something I've rarely heard in these arguments is the fact that steroids are available to pitchers too.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by oykib

But something I've rarely heard in these arguments is the fact that steroids are available to pitchers too.

This is something that is rarely talked about, because the correlation between steroids and results is harder to "see" in pitchers, I guess.

One of things I've always wondered about, given the fact that steroids might have made a big splash in MLB in the 80's, is the decline of 250+ innings starters during the latter half of the 80s. And all of the arm injuries. I've never quite understood how guys who came up in the late 60's and 70's had arms that could go 300 innings year, and then all of a sudden, guys couldn't throw more than 200+ innings for a couple of years without needing surgery starting in the 80's and on through until now.

Maybe that's a coincidence, but maybe building up the muscles in the arms takes its toll in ways that are less obvious.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Sharpieman

thank you, they should put one on McGuire too because of the stuff he took.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, in my book there's a big difference between taking a legal substance (that was not against the rules at the time) and an illegal substance.

If it comes out that McGwire or anyone else took illegal steroids then they should be treated differently.

And even if 50% of the players were taking illegal steroids, we shouldn't do anything about it (asterick's etc.) unless we have proof. If there's proof of Bonds, Giambi, and anyone else from Balco or otherwise, then I firmly support an asterick for illegal cheating.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Y'know, maybe we all just know each other too well or something, but I can't believe I'm the only person who read through this thread & had several flashes of "I knew he would have that position, it's just like him to think that."

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This is something that is rarely talked about, because the correlation between steroids and results is harder to "see" in pitchers, I guess.

One of things I've always wondered about, given the fact that steroids might have made a big splash in MLB in the 80's, is the decline of 250+ innings starters during the latter half of the 80s. And all of the arm injuries. I've never quite understood how guys who came up in the late 60's and 70's had arms that could go 300 innings year, and then all of a sudden, guys couldn't throw more than 200+ innings for a couple of years without needing surgery starting in the 80's and on through until now.

Maybe that's a coincidence, but maybe building up the muscles in the arms takes its toll in ways that are less obvious.

Well, if you ask any scout, there are more guys who throw in the 90s (MPH) than ever before. What can we attribute that too other than working out. If working out improves ones ability to pitch (as it is attributed to in the case of say... Roger Clemens), why wouldn't steroids help them too.

People only see one side. The number of strikeouts per year has increased much more than the number of homeruns has in the past 40 years. Mantle used to lead the league with 100 strikeouts. Guys today strike out twice as much. But nobody hits 100 homeruns.

You're one of the only people I've run acroos that seems to want to even entertain the idea, though.

As to the illegal drug-> asterisk argument: It's likely that BALCO was giving these guys designer growth hormone that might not have been scheduled by the FDA. If that's the case, is it okay?

The problem is guys having an unfair advantage over their competition.

If these Balco guys were the only steriod/enhancement, that's a problem.

If they were among a group that made up a large chunk of the players in MLB, then the problem is with MLB.

[Ksyrup]

I agree. I don't recall where I read it, but I swear I just read a story in which it said that the top 21 strikeouts per 9 innings seasons have all been recorded in the past 25 years (relievers included). Or something like that. Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing - either pitchers are striking out more guys, because more guys are swinging for the fences, or maybe more guys are striking out because the pitchers are throwing harder than ever before. It's just easier to identify a cause-and-effect relationship when looking at the hitters, I think.

[oykib]

I think it's inter-related. But there's as much evidence that the pitchers are juiced as there is that the batters are.

It's just that people decided without evidence that home runs were out of contraol. Now, they seize on whattever 'evidence' comes up to support their arguments.

It's like the McGwire-Bonds thing. There was just as much circumstancial evidence that Mac was a user. But people like him more than Bonds. So we see who's protected more.

Another one of these arguments is the watered down league argument. First, it doesn't hold water. Next, even if it did, why would only the pitching be watered down.

[oykib]

I think it's inter-related. But there's as much evidence that the pitchers are juiced as there is that the batters are.

It's just that people decided without evidence that home runs were out of contraol. Now, they seize on whattever 'evidence' comes up to support their arguments.

It's like the McGwire-Bonds thing. There was just as much circumstancial evidence that Mac was a user. But people like him more than Bonds. So we see who's protected more.

Another one of these arguments is the watered down league argument. First, it doesn't hold water. Next, even if it did, why would only the pitching be watered down?

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Possessing steroids is a crime (unless prescribed by a doctor for official medical purposes.) Anyone that benefited from an illegal activity should not be viewed as the greatest ever. At the very least, Barry deserves an Asterik.

That's a really dangerous precedent to set. What if Mark McGwire drove over the speed limit on his way to every game in 1998? What if Sosa bought a new home gym and illegally wrote it off on his taxes? You can't start erasing records based on what a player does in his private life if it doesn't break the rules of the game.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's a really dangerous precedent to set. What if Mark McGwire drove over the speed limit on his way to every game in 1998? What if Sosa bought a new home gym and illegally wrote it off on his taxes? You can't start erasing records based on what a player does in his private life if it doesn't break the rules of the game.

Agreed. If following the law determined whether records were legit, there are a lot of records that wouldn't be recognized. The rules of the game should determine the records.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's a really dangerous precedent to set. What if Mark McGwire drove over the speed limit on his way to every game in 1998? What if Sosa bought a new home gym and illegally wrote it off on his taxes? You can't start erasing records based on what a player does in his private life if it doesn't break the rules of the game.

Talk about a reach. Good lord.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Agreed. If following the law determined whether records were legit, there are a lot of records that wouldn't be recognized. The rules of the game should determine the records.

Since there's someone who actually agrees with this ridiculousness, I'll play along.

You sell computers. You're damn good at it. Last month, you sold the most computers, earning you a $1000 bonus and a very nice plaque.

On January 26th, at 8:51 AM, you failed to use your blinker while pulling into a parking space at work. Go give back your bonus and plaque, you law-breaking bastard.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That's a really dangerous precedent to set. What if Mark McGwire drove over the speed limit on his way to every game in 1998? What if Sosa bought a new home gym and illegally wrote it off on his taxes? You can't start erasing records based on what a player does in his private life if it doesn't break the rules of the game.

I think that Eaglesfan meant breaking a law to take advantage of a sporting league - not just any law. Pete Rose broke a gambling law and baseball rule that impacted the crediblilty of the sport. As a result he is 'banned' for now from the game and the hall of fame.

In Bonds defense, there was no baseball rule against steriods, but he did (assuming the leaked testimony is true) take an illegal action that took advantage of the sport. Maybe this sounds hypocritical, but since he didn't break the baseball rule, I have no problem with inducting Bonds in the hall of fame. But if he did compromise the game with illegal activities, though I would be in favor of an asterick or some other type of punishment.

[rafini]

Originally Posted by oykib

But something I've rarely heard in these arguments is the fact that steroids are available to pitchers too.

If steroids have helped Bonds lengthen his career and put up crazy numbers over the last 3-4 years without getting hurt, then how's Roger Clemens doing the same thing at the same age, but nobody's questioning him?

It's kinda of funny, but people say to compare pictures of Bonds when he was a rookie and now, and look at the difference in his body size. Do the same with Clemens - it looks like he's added 30-40 pounds since his early days.

But people like Clemens and they don't like Bonds, so only one of them is under the microscope (I personally don't like either of them, I just find this situation funny).

[miked]

Originally Posted by rafini

If steroids have helped Bonds lengthen his career and put up crazy numbers over the last 3-4 years without getting hurt, then how's Roger Clemens doing the same thing at the same age, but nobody's questioning him?

It's kinda of funny, but people say to compare pictures of Bonds when he was a rookie and now, and look at the difference in his body size. Do the same with Clemens - it looks like he's added 30-40 pounds since his early days.

But people like Clemens and they don't like Bonds, so only one of them is under the microscope (I personally don't like either of them, I just find this situation funny).

Clemens has a well documented off season workout and anyone who knows him is fairly confident in his training. Clemens had good numbers, but really his NYY stats weren't all that impressive. The main reason he dominated so much last year was the move to the NL. Batting in the NL isn't nearly as good, and you get to face a joke batter every time through the lineup. The NL is where tired AL pitchers go to dominate.

Bonds on the other hand was trained by alleged felons, trained with admitted steroid users and puts up eye-popping numbers when nobody else his age does. Doesn't take a rocket surgeon.

[rkmsuf]

What was the purpose of that whole news conference?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

What was the purpose of that whole news conference?

To get people to like him more.

It's never a good idea to say hi to the reporters as you walk up and ask them (Pedro Gomez, specifically) if they are still "lyin'." Just bizarre. This guy must have Michael Jackson's PR firm.