General tells it like it is.

[Ben E Lou]

General warned to watch his words

By JOHN J. LUMPKIN
Associated Press
Published on: 02/04/05

WASHINGTON — A decorated Marine Corps general said, "It's fun to shoot some people" and poked fun at the manhood of Afghans as he described the combat action U.S. troops are seeing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The commandant of the Marine Corps said Thursday the comments reflected "the unfortunate and harsh realities of war," but the general has been asked to watch what he says in public.



Lt. Gen. James Mattis, an infantry officer now in charge of developing better ways to train and equip Marines, made the comments Tuesday at an Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association conference in San Diego.

According to an audio recording, he said, "Actually, it's a lot of fun to fight. You know, it's a hell of a hoot. . . . It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right upfront with you, I like brawling."

He added, "You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil. You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."

His comments were met with laughter and applause from the audience. They were reported by television station KNSD.

Thursday, Gen. Mike Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps, issued a statement saying, "Lt. Gen. Mattis often speaks with a great deal of candor. I have counseled him concerning his remarks and he agrees he should have chosen his words more carefully."

[Raiders Army]

This is great. I know some people will have problems with this, but it's absolutely true.

[yabanci]

He's actually just quoting jesus christ. I think it was the sermon on the mount where jesus said it's fun shooting people.

[albionmoonlight]

My cousin is a marine who returned from Afghanistan, and he said that one of the hardest things to get used to was how poorly they treated women over there. Feeling much like this general, he said you really just wanted to knock some sense into these guys who were walking around with their wives and daughters cowering behind them all of the time.

[Galaril]

Being a retired Air Force officer, I read what the General had to say and it sounds a lot worse how some media are reporting this out of context. But, that being said he should of shown better judgement and kept his comments to himself. The last thing anyone wants is shit like this or a "Bring it on comment" to fuel more anger against troops in the field. This is like bulletin board material for the insurgents.Just my 2 cents.

[ISiddiqui]

It's nice to see members of our military saying it's fun to kill people. Now that doesn't indicate some sort of mental problems or anything... I wonder if he's going to be taking his killing show to areas of domestic violence in the US.

[sachmo71]

Patton reborn.

[Ben E Lou]

I appreciate someone throwing the freakin' politics out the window and just saying what he really thinks.

[ISiddiqui]

Even when he shows himself to be a psychopath?

[ISiddiqui]

Um.. Skydog... people who enjoy killing, actual killing, are basically defined as psychopaths. It's not an opinion, it is considered a mental disease.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Now that doesn't indicate some sort of mental problems or anything....

Do you seriously think that? If there isn't any element of fun in seeing the bad guys die, then why do you think action movies and violent video games are so popular?

[Crapshoot]

More Rednecks in power - good thing. I love the marines as some sort of moral authority bit.

[HighandOutside]

A culture of life...yes...we must promote a culture of life because God loves each and every one of us...But, geez, it sure is fun killing people.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by HighandOutside

God loves each and every one of us...


But, geez, it sure is fun killing people.

The sarcastic responses in this thread would indicate that some of you think that two things are mutually exclusive. Even if you wanted to try to make the argument that God doesn't want us to go to war to mete out justice, in this case, I'd still respond as such: there are plenty of things that are forbidden by God that are fun.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Um.. Skydog... people who enjoy killing, actual killing, are basically defined as psychopaths. It's not an opinion, it is considered a mental disease.

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Do you seriously think that? If there isn't any element of fun in seeing the bad guys die, then why do you think action movies and violent video games are so popular?

you don't see any difference between watching make believe killing and shooting someone dead yourself and enjoying it?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

there are plenty of things that are forbidden by God that are fun.

{and from the corner}

Amen !

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Chubby

you don't see any difference between watching make believe killing and shooting someone dead yourself and enjoying it?

Sure, there's a difference. Ultimately, I'm convinced that most people aren't honest with themselves with regard to the depths that they're capable of sinking, though.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

Then why haven't you? You say this now in a message board or even among friends, but when push comes to shove, I doubt you'd be a vigilante. Normal people do not enjoy killing other human beings and will only kill when it is needed.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

Wow.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Then why haven't you?

Because I think it is wrong, and do not believe that I should break the law. Doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it, though. Can you not see the difference there?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Because I think it is wrong, and do not believe that I should break the law. Doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it, though. Can you not see the difference there?

... That's really sick, and frankly tell me if you enjoy it after you actually perform the deed. I suppose you may have a different opinion if you actually witness it happening.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

tell me if you enjoy it after you actually perform the deed.

Ummmm....are you not reading what I'm saying??? I'd never, ever perform the deed. No chance.

[HighandOutside]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The sarcastic responses in this thread would indicate that some of you think that two things are mutually exclusive. Even if you wanted to try to make the argument that God doesn't want us to go to war to mete out justice, in this case, I'd still respond as such: there are plenty of things that are forbidden by God that are fun.

I don't claim to know whether God wants us to go to war or not. I'll leave that to you guys who seem to know him/her so well. However, I would be disappointed in God if he endorsed all of us giggling about how much fun it is to kill.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by HighandOutside

I don't claim to know whether God wants us to go to war or not. I'll leave that to you guys who seem to know him/her so well. However, I would be disappointed in God if he endorsed all of us giggling about how much fun it is to kill.

Where did anyone say (or imply) that He would endorse it?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Ummmm....are you not reading what I'm saying??? I'd never, ever perform the deed. No chance.

Ummm... I am reading what you are saying. Are you reading what I'm saying? I said that it is easy to say that on a message board or among your friends. If you actually did it, you'd be singing a different tune, I'm sure. You wouldn't be talking about how enjoying it was.

[Yossarian]

Doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy it, though

That's really fucked up.

You'd enjoy killing a man. wow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

... and will only kill when it is needed.

I suspect the number of people that "need killing" is just one of the variety of things we'd disagree about completely.

Rules of law, both God's and man's, are the only reason a lot of people I can think of are alive today.

[flere-imsaho]

Is it that you'd enjoy the actual killing of another human being, or that you'd enjoy bringing "justice", via vengenance, to bear?

[Yossarian]

Personally, I can see why people like shooting guns and stuff, I like games, I like paintball and I can imagine the thrill of the chase and the pleasure of sucessfully beating an opponent.

I wouldnt enjoy the actual act of killing though. Y'know, as you make that fatal blow or whatever. That's just about the opposite of fun IMO.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Guess I'm a psychopath then, because there's no question in my mind that I'd enjoy giving justice to brutal murderers, child molesters, rapists, and others.

Count me psycho as well.

Originally Posted by Yossarian

That's really fucked up.

You'd enjoy killing a man. wow.

I'd enjoy killing Bin Laden and Zarqawi. I guess I'm fucked up. But it's not like that's news or anything

[Yossarian]

I'd enjoy killing Bin Laden and Zarqawi.

You'd enjoy killing them? or you'd feel you were doing a service to the world?

Different sides of a coin.
One may be the "right thing" but a pleasureable act?

[flere-imsaho]

Humans, in general, enjoy performing acts of vengeance, in my opinion. I think that's what we're talking about here.

I don't think anyone (at least I hope not) is saying they'd enjoy killing for killing's sake, or that they'd enjoy killing some random person. I don't even think people are saying they'd enjoy the act, per se. I think what people are saying is that they would get satisfaction out of ending the life of a brutal terrorist. I think that's reasonable.

I think others are saying that they wouldn't enjoy any act of killing, even if they were ending the life of a brutal terrorist. I think that's also reasonable.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ummm... I am reading what you are saying.

Well, you said it in such a way as to indicate that you actually thought that I might go vigilante one day. Ain't gonna happen.

Are you reading what I'm saying? I said that it is easy to say that on a message board or among your friends. If you actually did it, you'd be singing a different tune, I'm sure. You wouldn't be talking about how enjoying it was.

Well, obviously, there's no way to know for sure, but I'm not so sure if confronted with someone who needed killin', that I wouldn't enjoy the deed. Maybe I'm naive, but my guess is that I'd feel remorse due to the punishment, but not due to the deed. I've observed too many people who felt bad that they were *caught* doing whatever, rather than felt bad about what they actually did, to think any differently about the human condition. Again, I think it is something that many aren't honest with themselves about. Oftentimes, people are remorseful not because of what they DID, but because they had to be punished for it.

To give a personal example, when I was a teenager, I got caught once for driving somewhere my parents didn't want me to go. I was punished. I was upset that I got punished; I wasn't upset over what I had done--and I did it again, taking more careful steps to make sure I wouldn't get caught.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

I'd enjoy killing Bin Laden and Zarqawi.

I'd think it was needed, ie if I was in a room with them, but I wouldn't enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Skydog

I got caught once for driving somewhere my parents didn't want me to go. I was punished. I was upset that I got punished; I wasn't upset over what I had done--and I did it again, taking more careful steps to make sure I wouldn't get caught.

Killing a person is on an entirely different level than getting punished by your parents for driving somewhere. A lot of veterans, for example, while they feel what they did was necessary, they never enjoyed ending someone else's life and for some it still haunts them.

[sachmo71]

To give a personal example, when I was a teenager, I got caught once for driving somewhere my parents didn't want me to go. I was punished. I was upset that I got punished; I wasn't upset over what I had done--and I did it again, taking more careful steps to make sure I wouldn't get caught.

I don't think the analogy quite works, especially for someone who believes in a rewarding afterlife.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Uh, I didn't write that.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

You'd enjoy killing them? or you'd feel you were doing a service to the world?

I'd enjoy watching them beg for their lives knowing all the death and destruction they caused has now come back to them. I'd relish their sense of "martrydom" knowing that there aren't 72 virgins waiting for them where I'm sending them. I'd take pleasure in them spitting on me because I'm a lowly zionist female.

If given the chance, I wouldn't hestitate to pull the trigger, and I would be thankful for the opportunity to do so.

It's not just killing for killing's sake, or the enjoyment out of taking the life of another human. I would give my life if it meant I could take them out at the same time. I guess it must be my need to deliver justice.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A lot of veterans, for example, while they feel what they did was necessary, they never enjoyed ending someone else's life and for some it still haunts them.

And a lot of veterans (and not just those with post-war psychological problems) didn't have a problem with it. I've talked to enough WW2 veterans to know that.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I don't think the analogy quite works, especially for someone who believes in a rewarding afterlife.

Well, at the time, I didn't.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

I'd enjoy killing Bin Laden and Zarqawi.

How would you do it? Would you use a method that would heighten your enjoyment of the act?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

And a lot of veterans (and not just those with post-war psychological problems) didn't have a problem with it. I've talked to enough WW2 veterans to know that.

And I've spoken to plenty who simply don't want to think about it. People realize that taking another person's life is not a thing to enjoy, but something that may have been needed at the time. Did any of the WW2 vets you spoke with enjoy killing others?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Uh, I didn't write that.

Ooops, that is what happens when you are trying to quote multiple posts... sorry your name got there.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

How would you do it? Would you use a method that would heighten your enjoyment of the act?

What, you mean like torture by sending them through a plastic shredder? Something to prolong their deaths? No.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Did any of the WW2 vets you spoke with enjoy killing others?

Yes. They told stories and shared laughs about killing Nazis.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Well, at the time, I didn't.

Oh, I thought you were talking in the present.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Yes. They told stories and shared laughs about killing Nazis.

This proves nothing. There are also plenty of WW2 vets who came back with serious problems because they killed people, even when some of those people were evil SS officers.

I don't understand why the two sides here can't understand that each side has valid points. Some people couldn't bring themselves to kill anyone, no matter what the justification. Many of these types of people ended up suffering outrageously in WW2 (and other wars) because of this "built-in" psychological make-up. There are whole tomes of military study devoted to this "problem" inherent in some soldiers (especially conscripts).

The other side has no problem with ending the life of wrong-doers, and believes they would be able to do it themselves. That's perfectly valid as well, because it too, is human, for better or for worse.

But, as I pointed out in my post above which you all seem to have ignored, there's a difference between enjoying the act of killing itself, with all context removed, and enjoying the act of killing because it's an act of vengeance. I think that's a crucial distinction people are neglecting to consider here.

[Fritz]

I don't enjoying or not enjoying killing is something inherent to a person. I think it is heavily infualnced by their cultural makeup. Most of us are taught "kiing is wrong" and thus we are messed up if we think otherwise.

However, we must have tools (military, cia, etc) that act otherwise. They are trained to have a different culture. This does not make them psycopathic.

There are plenty of historic examples of cultures that embrased killing, and I don't think all had a mental disorder.

[Klinglerware]

Also, didn't somebody do a study that suggested that only a minority of combat soldiers in WWII actually fired their weapon at an enemy?

I'm sure there were quite a few "Nazi hunters" in the day, but I wouldn't doubt that there aren't a few tall tales in the mix. Kind of like all the millions of people who say they were at Woodstock...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

This proves nothing. There are also plenty of WW2 vets who came back with serious problems because they killed people, even when some of those people were evil SS officers.

Sure, it proves nothing. My point in saying it was to respond to the notion that because lots of veterans had serious problems, then it is a serious problem. Lots of veterans had serious problems, but lots didn't. I don't think it is fair to say that either group was psychopathic, though. That was my whole point in making the comment.

I don't understand why the two sides here can't understand that each side has valid points. Some people couldn't bring themselves to kill anyone, no matter what the justification. Many of these types of people ended up suffering outrageously in WW2 (and other wars) because of this "built-in" psychological make-up. There are whole tomes of military study devoted to this "problem" inherent in some soldiers (especially conscripts).

I completely understand that. I'm not arguing that they should feel the same way I do, merely that the notion that I'm proposing isn't as far-out-there and psycho as some would like to think.

But, as I pointed out in my post above which you all seem to have ignored, there's a difference between enjoying the act of killing itself, with all context removed, and enjoying the act of killing because it's an act of vengeance. I think that's a crucial distinction people are neglecting to consider here.

No, I didn't ignore it at all. I agreed with it, but thought that the point was so obvious that it didn't require a reply.