Ping: Marc V

[Crapshoot]

Im getting a little frustrated with the FM Ai - especially the 2d engine. For the second time in as many games, my striker upon being clear through on goal alone, decides to pass across to the wing (on the side he was on) and gets it intercepted meaning 2 straight losses. More and More, Im getting a little frustrated by what I percieve as some major flaws - be it the striker passing back, or the fact that on throw ins, 3 players will mark someone leaving a guy in front of them open (always down the wing), or defenders engaging in back passing when all out attack is on- its little things which are more irritating when Im losing (admittedly), but it ruins a good game.

[Crapshoot]

Let me second it by the saying that the kickoff bug (1 kick, pass score) is happening again and again. I was under the impression that this was fixed - It seems to be happening again and again.

[Marc Vaughan]

Which version of the game are you running? (and can you please indicate a little about the tactics and team you're using)

[bhlloy]

This happens IRL, especially at poor standards of football. Even in the Premiership you see strikers shooting when they should pass, and sometimes you see passes that make you think "WTF?"

Shit happens... you should probably get some players with better mental attributes.

For what it's worth I think the 2D is much improved post-patch, maybe not enough goalmouth scrambles and there are still too many one on ones missed, but to me it looks like a very intelligent representation of a soccer match.

[bhlloy]

DOLA - an example from a recent Cardiff game (real life). Poor long throw to edge of box, first Derby player rises and completely misses a free header, second Derby player in position falls over, ball bounces to Cardiff striker in the six yard box who heads past helpless keeper.

A text sim could probably tell you that without you thinking much is amiss, however put it into 2D and you will have 40 people screaming "bug, bug". In 15 years watching soccer I've seen players go to sleep and forget to mark, strikers shooting over from 2 yards out, an unbelievable amount of passes to nobody even in the most critical and uncomprehensible situations, keepers throwing the ball at their own goal, keepers missing back passes etc etc etc. It's a sport where a lot of unpredictable stuff happens.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

DOLA - an example from a recent Cardiff game (real life). Poor long throw to edge of box, first Derby player rises and completely misses a free header, second Derby player in position falls over, ball bounces to Cardiff striker in the six yard box who heads past helpless keeper.

A text sim could probably tell you that without you thinking much is amiss, however put it into 2D and you will have 40 people screaming "bug, bug". In 15 years watching soccer I've seen players go to sleep and forget to mark, strikers shooting over from 2 yards out, an unbelievable amount of passes to nobody even in the most critical and uncomprehensible situations, keepers throwing the ball at their own goal, keepers missing back passes etc etc etc. It's a sport where a lot of unpredictable stuff happens.

Yes, things don't always work perfectly. Often times all-out attack situations are where you see the most back passes because the defense has the entire team in the box. I've seen plenty of times when the ball goes from near the 18 all the way back to the keeper. You see that happen a lot when a team is trying to score in the final minutes.

[bhlloy]

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's perfect and there aren't things to be tweaked. I'm just saying you see a lot of people complaining about "bugs" in the 2D where really it's just frustration that they aren't doing well. The game is a challenge and for me that's the best part - at first all my teams sucked, now I have a pretty decent team but even now the team just doesn't perform or I make a boneheaded move and we lose games we should win. Infinitely prefereable IMO to earlier versions where a good team was easy to assemble and once you had a good setup you could win the Premiership with a D3 team.

With regards to the all out attack - yes obviously back passes to the keeper in this situation shouldn't be happening and I'm sure it will be sorted for the next patch. But all out attack against a team that is all out defending often doesn't result in a flurry of chances - see United vs Liverpool this weekend. Liverpool were 11 vs 10 for the last 20 minutes and were "all out attacking" for a good 10-15 minutes of that after they threw on Biscan... they ended the game with 2 shots on goal. The only good chance they had was Carragher from the free kick in the last minute.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy here, just from my perspective the 2D engine has got so much better and now I'm really nitpicking if I try to find major repetetive faults with it, and there still seems to be as many people complaining because their teams aren't winning. Often these people are using default tactics and haven't really thought about what they want their teams to be doing, and still think they should be taking the league by storm. Not necessarily a pop at Crapshoot, but look around the various FM forums and you see quite a few people like that.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's perfect and there aren't things to be tweaked. I'm just saying you see a lot of people complaining about "bugs" in the 2D where really it's just frustration that they aren't doing well. The game is a challenge and for me that's the best part - at first all my teams sucked, now I have a pretty decent team but even now the team just doesn't perform or I make a boneheaded move and we lose games we should win. Infinitely prefereable IMO to earlier versions where a good team was easy to assemble and once you had a good setup you could win the Premiership with a D3 team.

With regards to the all out attack - yes obviously back passes to the keeper in this situation shouldn't be happening and I'm sure it will be sorted for the next patch. But all out attack against a team that is all out defending often doesn't result in a flurry of chances - see United vs Liverpool this weekend. Liverpool were 11 vs 10 for the last 20 minutes and were "all out attacking" for a good 10-15 minutes of that after they threw on Biscan... they ended the game with 2 shots on goal. The only good chance they had was Carragher from the free kick in the last minute.

I'm not trying to be a fanboy here, just from my perspective the 2D engine has got so much better and now I'm really nitpicking if I try to find major repetetive faults with it, and there still seems to be as many people complaining because their teams aren't winning. Often these people are using default tactics and haven't really thought about what they want their teams to be doing, and still think they should be taking the league by storm. Not necessarily a pop at Crapshoot, but look around the various FM forums and you see quite a few people like that.

Well said.

[Crapshoot]

Oh I agree, I think its extremely likely I was frustated. But I reckon Im fairly good with the game, and Im using a souped version of the 4-4-2 with a playmaker running from the left side of the midfield, with a holding midfielder cleaning up in the middle.

That being said, certain things (like the kickoff thing, which has been discussed many times in the past) are known problems. With the throw ins, 30-40% of the time a person is open down the wing where the throw in is from- unmarked- both on my side and the computer's. Zonal marking should ensure that the fullback or winger is out there marking them, but they aren't - and that's frustrating. Its easy to dismiss this as frustation only, but I hate scoring goals (or conceding them) when things that dont seem to be skill/talent based but rather the AI failing.

Marc, 5.0.2 is the version- British version.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Oh I agree, I think its extremely likely I was frustated. But I reckon Im fairly good with the game, and Im using a souped version of the 4-4-2 with a playmaker running from the left side of the midfield, with a holding midfielder cleaning up in the middle.

That being said, certain things (like the kickoff thing, which has been discussed many times in the past) are known problems. With the throw ins, 30-40% of the time a person is open down the wing where the throw in is from- unmarked- both on my side and the computer's. Zonal marking should ensure that the fullback or winger is out there marking them, but they aren't - and that's frustrating. Its easy to dismiss this as frustation only, but I hate scoring goals (or conceding them) when things that dont seem to be skill/talent based but rather the AI failing.

Marc, 5.0.2 is the version- British version.

I know what you're talking about on set plays. You can almost rack it up as a goal as soon as you see that guy unmarked on a throw-in. It's like it's part of the AI goal scoring routine.

[bhlloy]

Couple of thoughts:

The marking from throw in logic probably needs to be tweaked, it's the one thing I have noticed. However, expecting wingers to do a good job of marking is unrealistic. Expecting zone marking to work like a football cover 2 or cover 3 isn't going to happen. You will find weaknesses in the midfield areas because you are going to have attacking minded players there, especially on the wings. If the players are being left free down the line nearer the box then that is a big problem, but I haven't noticed it.

Goals from kickoff happen. Especially when the home team goes a goal down if the crowd gets behind them instead of on top of them. I've seen it a good number of times at Cardiff City matches.

Saying there is AI scripted goals is frankly BS... if every time a winger gets free you concede then you need to look at some of your defensive settings.

[Mac Howard]

What Marc and his team are doing with the 2d display in FM is one of the most difficult simulations ever tried. A complete aircraft simulation is peanuts by comparison. That's why it's taken 20 years plus for someone to make the effort.

The reason is that you cannot put this stuff into mathematical form. You're trying to simulate human intelligence, psychology and even the disruption between the brain and the nervous system (the limitations on the body's ability to do what the brain tells it to ). Add to this the intertaction of several intelligent entities - each responding to the behaviour of the other 21 recursively - and the complexity of the movement that defines sensible soccer and you have an impossible situation.

So you will get anomolies, events that may not occur in the real world. But it will improve as techniques are developed and honed. FM is much better than CM4 and I'm sure FM2006 (possibly CM5/6 etc) will see further improvements.

Give the guys a little slack

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Couple of thoughts:

The marking from throw in logic probably needs to be tweaked, it's the one thing I have noticed. However, expecting wingers to do a good job of marking is unrealistic. Expecting zone marking to work like a football cover 2 or cover 3 isn't going to happen. You will find weaknesses in the midfield areas because you are going to have attacking minded players there, especially on the wings. If the players are being left free down the line nearer the box then that is a big problem, but I haven't noticed it.

Goals from kickoff happen. Especially when the home team goes a goal down if the crowd gets behind them instead of on top of them. I've seen it a good number of times at Cardiff City matches.

Saying there is AI scripted goals is frankly BS... if every time a winger gets free you concede then you need to look at some of your defensive settings.

I didn't say every time a winger gets free I concede. What I did mean is that, on set plays, meaning throw ins, if a player is left wide open it leads to a goal 90% of the time. I also said it was "like" the AI scripts goals, not that they do. Take a little time to read thoroughly, eh?

And my wingers are high in work rate, tackling, and marking. Not everyone uses attacking wingers in their formation and I don't have a problem with conceding on wing attacks.

[Crapshoot]

Billy, I've been playing the game in some form for 6-7 years - I dont appreciate the perception on your part that Im some newbie to this. Neither Desnudo nor I talked about scripting but rather the fact that if a winger is left unmarked by miles down a touchline, odds are that he will get in a good cross, leading to a great scoring event. More so the point is that it happens a vast majority of the time - whatever the marking scheme (me and my AI).

[PilotMan]

Crap! I just lost a game when my N. Irish National keeper lost the game with 5 min to play when he fell down at the exact moment that the Millwall striker fired a long, hopeless shot, only to have it go by the sadly prone keeper.

ARRRGH!

[bhlloy]

Last post on this because I don't want it to turn into a flame war - either somebody is exagerrating or we are playing a different game to each other.

Let's do some math - 30-40% of the time on a throw in somebody is free (Crapshoot) and 90% of the time this happens a goal occurs (Desnudo) I don't have the numbers for throw ins in a game but lets say conservatively 40 times a game (wild guess)

How many goals are you two guys seeing in your games? Shouldn't it be 14-13 every game by your assertations? Or are you just exaggerating to try and back your point up?