If Peyton and the Colts win the Superbowl....

[Greyroofoo]

Will he be considered the best qb ever?

[Pyser]

well, best season ever, for starters.

best qb ever, he needs to do more. montana won 4, after all...

[Draft Dodger]

I think there's enough backlash against him both for his excessive audibling and his severe overexposure on TV (is there ANY commercial he and his agent turn down?) to keep him from being considered best ever. yet.

[temley06]

Not yet, but he is on his way.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Let's ask this question in 20 years when we know how it turned out. Right now he is on his way.....but who knows what the next few years will bring.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I think there's enough backlash against him both for his excessive audibling and his severe overexposure on TV (is there ANY commercial he and his agent turn down?) to keep him from being considered best ever. yet.

At least he can act. 99% of NFL player commercials are horrifyingly bad.

[Draft Dodger]

btw, on a related note, Peyton Manning is going to make a HELL of an offensive co-ordinator some day (if he wants to)

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

btw, on a related note, Peyton Manning is going to make a HELL of an offensive co-ordinator some day (if he wants to)

I disagree. In much the same way that most great players make lousy coaches because they don't understand why the player just can't "do" it, I bet Manning would go nuts trying to get a young QB to read and react to defenses.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I disagree. In much the same way that most great players make lousy coaches because they don't understand why the player just can't "do" it, I bet Manning would go nuts trying to get a young QB to read and react to defenses.

I think that arguement would say he'd be a bad position coach, but he clearly has an excellent understand of what plays to call when, and why he should be calling them.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

I disagree. In much the same way that most great players make lousy coaches because they don't understand why the player just can't "do" it, I bet Manning would go nuts trying to get a young QB to read and react to defenses.

I disagree, but it's a good point.
Something tells me, though, that it's moot - somehow, I don't see him going into coaching.

[Cap Ologist]

Heck, if he invests wisely, he could own a team 20-30 years from now. I'm sure you could get a pretty good rate for 98 million.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I think that arguement would say he'd be a bad position coach, but he clearly has an excellent understand of what plays to call when, and why he should be calling them.

But his understanding is after getting to the line and reading a defense. An offensive coordinator doesn't have the luxury of the audible.

Not saying that he will or won't make a good coach. It's just that what he does isn't something that can be coached.

[spleen1015]

Let's go Insurance Adjusters, let's go!

[Joe]

cut that meat! cut that meat!

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I think there's enough backlash against him both for his excessive audibling and his severe overexposure on TV (is there ANY commercial he and his agent turn down?) to keep him from being considered best ever. yet.

What's wrong with him to do commericals? Peyton's a classy guy, like Farve (I hate the Packers, but I can't seem to not like Farve) and he's smart for doing commericals if they are the right ones. I actually really haven't seen him do commericals until the last year or so. I rather watch his VISA commericals then Trump's.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

Heck, if he invests wisely, he could own a team 20-30 years from now. I'm sure you could get a pretty good rate for 98 million.

I'm sure he and his bro could team up together with the money (if Eli turns out to be even close to his bro's success), they could buy it. Ryan Leaf I think is doing pretty well with his money he got in his short-lived NFL career.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

But his understanding is after getting to the line and reading a defense. An offensive coordinator doesn't have the luxury of the audible.

Not saying that he will or won't make a good coach. It's just that what he does isn't something that can be coached.

I disagree. First of all, his audibleing is the result of what I can only assume is a LOT of film study, and, of course, the free reign to be able to change plays like that. I don't believe the former aspect is unique to him by any means...but certainly no one else has the latitude to change plays like that.

In other words, yes, what he does CAN be coached...it just isn't. There are other smart QBs who could have success like that, if given the opportunity and proper guidance.

[Havok]

He's the best QB i've ever seen and i've been watching football since around 1991. Elway was awsome, Young was awsome, Favre was awsome, but watching Manning is just frightening.

[Eaglesfan27]

He is definitely on the way to being the best, but who knows what will happen over the next few years. He needs to do this for at least a few more years to unseat some of the greats.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I think there's enough backlash against him both for his excessive audibling and his severe overexposure on TV (is there ANY commercial he and his agent turn down?) to keep him from being considered best ever. yet.

Sorry, but if people are judging his ability as a QB based on the commercials he has been in, they need to get out of the ability-judging business. That's just ludicrous.

I mean, I think the thing that will keep him back is he is way too blond.

Or he has way too many relatives who have been quarterbacks in the NFL.

Or he spent way too many years sleeping at night, the bastard.



I don't know, could we come up with some more irrelevant information to apply as critieria?

CR

[Pumpy Tudors]

One of my friends followed Eli Manning's car around New Orleans for about 15 minutes yesterday. Eli bought some McGriddles. I think we're all pretty sure that Eli is not the greatest quarterback ever.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sorry, but if people are judging his ability as a QB based on the commercials he has been in, they need to get out of the ability-judging business. That's just ludicrous.

I mean, I think the thing that will keep him back is he is way too blond.

Or he has way too many relatives who have been quarterbacks in the NFL.

Or he spent way too many years sleeping at night, the bastard.



I don't know, could we come up with some more irrelevant information to apply as critieria?

CR

Chief, don't you know he needs to feed his family with the commerical money?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

Chief, don't you know he needs to feed his family with the commerical money?

heh heh if that's what he needs to do...

Honestly, though, how many commercials he does should have absolutely nothing to do with his legacy as a star quarterback on the football field.

CR

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

heh heh if that's what he needs to do...

Honestly, though, how many commercials he does should have absolutely nothing to do with his legacy as a star quarterback on the football field.

CR

I agree.

[Desnudo]

If he manages to get the Colts to the Super Bowl, I'd change my opinion of him since they would have gone through two excellent teams to do it, assuming the Steelers win. Even if they win it all, I still would think Montana is the best money QB in history though. Until they win it, he's just an upgraded Dan Marino.

[Honolulu Blue]

It's too early to talk about Peyton for the Hall. If he were to blow out his knee, rotator cuff, or contract the dread Repetitive Concussion Syndrome, I'd give it a little thought.

Three of my favorite Peyton lines:

"You're my favorite accountant!"

"I am NEVER washing this hand!"

and #1 on the list...

"I'm Peyton Manning, and this is what I play for..."

[Yossarian]

Not wanting to turn this into a 'do you need the bowl' thread but its surprises me just how much people count 'winning the big one' in their evaluation of a QB.

Say Peyton was a full red bar candidate, and the closest guy was a 50% redbar guy. Then assume that because you had paid peyton so much you could only hire undrafted rookies to fill the rest of your roster and thus never won the big one.

Is the 50% guy (who won two bowls) better than your 100% red bar stud?

NO!

Red Bar Payton is the best qb ever in your universe.

now, i know this is Real Life (tm) and not FOF but the same principle applies, talent and ability define 'greatness' not success.

Success is a product of talent and ability but there are other factors NOT RELATED TO QB GREATNESS that can influence and ultimately define the success.

Thus, winning the big one really doesnt have a direct one to one relationship between who's the greatest qb.

[Desnudo]

That depends on your definition of greatness. Mine includes being a clutch performer who can be counted on to be at their best when the stakes are highest. It's why the MVP awards in sports usually go to players from winning teams.

[Yossarian]

That depends on your definition of greatness. Mine includes being a clutch performer who can be counted on to be at their best when the stakes are highest

Mine includes that too. Becaust it is a talent to play well under pressure.
Still, put any stud QB on a truly and utterly shit team and he'll not win any titles.

[Hoya1]

I think the difference between Manning and Montana is that we are now in the "salary cap era". Those 49er teams were stacked with talent. I'm not saying that Manning doesn't have the offensive talent, but the defensive talent is not the same.
What Manning has done since he's been in the league is unprecidented. He's had 6 consecutive 4100+yd seasons and thrown for over 25TDs

[rkmsuf]

how could he be considered the best ever? silly.

[TroyF]

He goes down right now, he's probably going to make the HOF. The Colts have their core locked up for the next few years. I just can't see him falling back down. I think we are going to be looking at a situation in a few years where one of his bad years will look like last season (4200 yards, 29 TD's)

[Tekneek]

If Peyton wins the Super Bowl this time, he will be half as good as Tom Brady...or at least that is what every Patriots fan will claim...and he may finally pass Trent Dilfer on the "Best QBs of all time" list.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Honolulu Blue

"I'm Peyton Manning, and this is what I play for..."

Which, oddly enough, turned out to be true this year.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

Mine includes that too. Becaust it is a talent to play well under pressure.
Still, put any stud QB on a truly and utterly shit team and he'll not win any titles.

True, but that's true about any position. And that's too bad, but unfortunately, as clutch performance is a measure of greatness, you don't qualify as great unless you've shown you can get it done in the playoffs.

[Suicane75]

Dont forget, we obviously all live in the here and now, but chances are he has 7-10 more seasons left in him.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

If Peyton wins the Super Bowl this time, he will be half as good as Tom Brady...or at least that is what every Patriots fan will claim...and he may finally pass Trent Dilfer on the "Best QBs of all time" list.

I would grant him a 3/4 share. He still has a way to go to reach Dilfer though.

[rkmsuf]

Who calls him just Peyton outside of his friends and parents?

[korme]

I DO

Who calls you rkmsuf outside of your internet life?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Who calls him just Peyton outside of his friends and parents?

I call him P-ing.

[Ragone]

I'd say if he won a superbowl this year he'd punch his ticket to Canton for sure..

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

I DO

Who calls you rkmsuf outside of your internet life?

calling him peyton is queer. calling any of these guys by there first name just doesn't do it for me.

Oh, Tom had such a fabulous game. I love Tom. bah.

It's Brady, fools. It's Manning.

Don't even argue with me; I know these things.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

calling him peyton is queer. calling any of these guys by there first name just doesn't do it for me.

Oh, Tom had such a fabulous game. I love Tom. bah.

It's Brady, fools. It's Manning.

Don't even argue with me; I know these things.

So you mean, you'd say "I can't believe some guy named Earthwind Moreland picked Manning off four times in the end zone," instead of "I can't believe some guy named Randall Gay picked Peyton off four times in the end zone?"

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

So you mean, you'd say "I can't believe some guy named Earthwind Moreland picked Manning off four times in the end zone," instead of "I can't believe some guy named Randall Gay picked Peyton off four times in the end zone?"

Absolutely. You are quick on the uptake sir.

[Yossarian]

True, but that's true about any position. And that's too bad, but unfortunately, as clutch performance is a measure of greatness, you don't qualify as great unless you've shown you can get it done in the playoffs

That statement isn't quite consistent. You say that clutch performance is a measure of greatness. I have no quarrel with that.

But getting it done in the playoffs isn't down to one guy (which is the entire core of my point).

Say P Manny, throws fantastic balls this week coming. Every ball lands as soft as a feather perfectly placed in his reciever's hands. Say those players run after the catch and on every single play run almost the lenght of the field (because manning threw them just perfectly).

Then assume that for some reason, each one got tackled at the 1 yard line and fumbled.

Now yeah, i know this is a farcical scenario. But bear it out..

So Mr PM throws for some 612 yards (thus getting the record for yards in an NFL sanctioned game) but because his recievers are total dolts, his team loses.

Is that an indication of his ability? NO!!!! Not in the slightest. He DID give a clutch performance. Others let him down

Ergo playoff performance OF THE TEAM cannot be taken as a wholesale indicator of one player.

If he threw every ball perfectly and the recievers got hit in the numbers with each pass but somehow dropped every ball, is that his fault? NO!!! Vis a Vis, playoff performance (of the team) cannot be taken as a wholesale indicator of the QB's performance.

Finally, if he threw for 10 touchdowns this week, and nobody could believe their eyes, yet the special teams unit allowed every single kick off to be returned for a TD and somehow the Colts lost, would that in somehow reflect upon his performance? NO!!!! Concordantly, team performance in teh playoffs is not an indicator in a QB's 'greatness'

Sure, for a QB to be considered great, he has to bring the goods in the play offs. I am not arguing that point (i'm not arguing the clutch thing you mention). But he only plays one position. If the rest of the team fucks up, it bears no relation on his greatness or othewise.

THAT is the reason Trent Dilfer is not a better QB than Dan Marino.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

That statement isn't quite consistent. You say that clutch performance is a measure of greatness. I have no quarrel with that.

But getting it done in the playoffs isn't down to one guy (which is the entire core of my point).

Say P Manny, throws fantastic balls this week coming. Every ball lands as soft as a feather perfectly placed in his reciever's hands. Say those players run after the catch and on every single play run almost the lenght of the field (because manning threw them just perfectly).

Then assume that for some reason, each one got tackled at the 1 yard line and fumbled.

Now yeah, i know this is a farcical scenario. But bear it out..

So Mr PM throws for some 612 yards (thus getting the record for yards in an NFL sanctioned game) but because his recievers are total dolts, his team loses.

Is that an indication of his ability? NO!!!! Not in the slightest. He DID give a clutch performance. Others let him down

Ergo playoff performance OF THE TEAM cannot be taken as a wholesale indicator of one player.

If he threw every ball perfectly and the recievers got hit in the numbers with each pass but somehow dropped every ball, is that his fault? NO!!! Vis a Vis, playoff performance (of the team) cannot be taken as a wholesale indicator of the QB's performance.

Finally, if he threw for 10 touchdowns this week, and nobody could believe their eyes, yet the special teams unit allowed every single kick off to be returned for a TD and somehow the Colts lost, would that in somehow reflect upon his performance? NO!!!! Concordantly, team performance in teh playoffs is not an indicator in a QB's 'greatness'

Sure, for a QB to be considered great, he has to bring the goods in the play offs. I am not arguing that point (i'm not arguing the clutch thing you mention). But he only plays one position. If the rest of the team fucks up, it bears no relation on his greatness or othewise.

THAT is the reason Trent Dilfer is not a better QB than Dan Marino.

I was going to make this same point. Manning doesn't have to win a Super Bowl to be considered great. If the rest of his career is at a 70% level of this year, he gets into the argument of greatest QB of all time.

Doyou think less of Barry Sanders because he never won a Super Bowl? Hell no. Why should it be any different for QBs?

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

calling him peyton is queer. calling any of these guys by there first name just doesn't do it for me.

Oh, Tom had such a fabulous game. I love Tom. bah.

It's Brady, fools. It's Manning.

Don't even argue with me; I know these things.

So how do you know what Manning you are talking about then, if you call them by their last name?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SunDancer

So how do you know what Manning you are talking about then, if you call them by their last name?

In this case I think it's pretty clear since he's the only one in the playoffs.

If it gets the point where it's potentially confusing you are allowed to use "Peyton Manning" or "Eli Manning". Peyton or Eli alone is not allowed.

[Yossarian]

or Ricky...

[korme]

Not even Favre gets first name honors in the NFL. It's a tough crowd.