Moderation

[Chief Rum]

Suicane. sabotai. Shorty. Marmel. Cringer.

That's a list of some of our top posters, our largest presences here. Few posters have contributed as much as these have, and they are the kinds of posters with names like Quiksand, JeeberD, Fritz, maybe myself (if I might be so bold).

And all of the posters at the top have sworn they will never post here again.

Is this the way we want this community run? Should moderation come without checks and balances? Does it need to? At what point, does the statement "for the good of the community" itself become a shield for actions that hurt this community?

I have a lot of respect for our headmaster here. I know he has to deal with a lot of shit. And I am pretty sure how he will react to this thread as well.

That said, I feel compelled to start this thread, because I hope that if this community can respond strongly enough, Ben will see we aren't posting threads to grandstand or troll, as he insists, but because we are longstanding members of this community who are very concerned about the direction it is going.

If you feel as I do, and want to engage in a discussion of the moderation of this community, I would welcome your opinions here, even if it largely agrees with SkyDog's take on things. I think we could use an airing out of greievances at the moment, because right now I fear for the eventual abandonment of this community, which I consider to be one of the best on the Internet.

I also want Ben to know that although my starting this thread is motivated for dissatisfaction with actions he took this weekend, I by and large agree with the basic actions he took, as sovereignstar certainly deserved a banning for posting under fofplaya when he was suspended, and also that I understand protecting Fido (although I think it is to a degree further than required).

I also think it's very sad that I have to learn of many things that happened here on another board entirely.

Anyway, I welcome any comments and hope this thread will be allowed to stay, so we can hopefully have a discussion that can improve this community.

Chief Rum

[sterlingice]

I don't really feel like getting into a protracted debate the night before finals weeks starts, but haven't we had enough of these threads? And while I do put a little extra weight behind them if they're started by someone who's a "regular", the "regulars" are starting to sound like a bunch of malcontent honors kids who are mad because one of their clique got in detention when they thought they were above reproach.

I've had disagreements with Skydog in the past and he's been fairly good about PM'ing me when I've PM'd with my complaints. Personally, I think that's the avenue all of these should have taken and you'd think after the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th person got fed up with SD penalty box'ing the previous one, making a thread like this, only to have the same thing happen, people would have learned.

But when people start threads like this, it really does look like the "grandstanding" word that we're all sick of seeing this weekend and when dirty laundry is aired in public, there is no way it can get smoothed over behind the scenes with cooler heads prevailing.

EDIT: Can we take the soap opera elsewhere? There's sports going on somewhere in the world that we can be discussing and I can get back to studying for finals.

SI

[Alan T]

Unfortunatly there is only a few ways to handle this type of thing. People can either discuss their differences like adults, or alot of people will just move along.

There is apparently enough interest from enough people for some form of public forum on this topic to be had. It takes a big person though to admit that they might have been wrong and change their mind on something for the better good.

I would urge Skydog to listen to the mass number of people who have problems with things over this weekend, and while not necessarily agreeing with other people's point of view on the situation, at least understand there is a need to discuss the topic more.

Even if you have said everything that you can possibly think of saying, right now it appears that alot of people feel that you are supressing the masses or using gestapo type tactics of entirely supressing a point of view that you differ with. In an educated society, people often will be able to hear both sides of a story and come to their own conclusions.

Unlike most of the people that have posted, I havent heard any of the details from other boards, and I am not sure that i really care. What I do care about is such a great community being split over the thought that a good number of people's opinions are being supressed. I am pretty confident that was not your intentions, and instead you were looking to try to put out a fire that might cause a whole bunch of trolling or other problems in your mind, but it appears clear that it opened pandora's box. Now that we have let loose this monster, we have no choice but to deal with it.

I am trying to be pretty impartial in this matter, and would hope that you will be a bigger man like I have seen you be in the past and take a step back to see the forest so to speak...

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

maybe myself (if I might be so bold)

You may.

As for this thread, what is there to discuss? The issue that is currently on the minds of many of those expatriates (gleaned from posts around the FOF community) seems to be whether SD was right in what he did and whether or not SD is fit to be moderator of this board. But at this point, what's the point of discussing either? After all, there's only two possible outcomes...both of which are going to split this community.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by VPI97

But at this point, what's the point of discussing either? After all, there's only two possible outcomes...both of which are going to split this community.

Exactly my point above. No good can come from rehashing this over and over again. Yet here we are again.

SI

[MikeVick7]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I don't really feel like getting into a protracted debate the night before finals weeks starts, but haven't we had enough of these threads? And while I do put a little extra weight behind them if they're started by someone who's a "regular", the "regulars" are starting to sound like a bunch of malcontent honors kids who are mad because one of their clique got in detention when they thought they were above reproach.

I've had disagreements with Skydog in the past and he's been fairly good about PM'ing me when I've PM'd with my complaints. Personally, I think that's the avenue all of these should have taken and you'd think after the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th person got fed up with SD penalty box'ing the previous one, making a thread like this, only to have the same thing happen, people would have learned.

But when people start threads like this, it really does look like the "grandstanding" word that we're all sick of seeing this weekend and when dirty laundry is aired in public, there is no way it can get smoothed over behind the scenes with cooler heads prevailing.

EDIT: Can we take the soap opera elsewhere? There's sports going on somewhere in the world that we can be discussing and I can get back to studying for finals.

SI

A. MEN.

I was typing out my own long-winded contribution to this but then decided to refresh to see if anyone had added to it. And SI pretty much captured it in my opinion.

[ISiddiqui]

I mostly agree with what you've said. I disagree on how this particular situation with sovereignstar should have been handled (a longer suspension is the better way to deal with such a thing first). I think that open discussion of moderation decisions is the way to go. Clamping down on discussion and dissent doesn't do good things for the community as a whole and may ultimately destroy it.

One of the problems here is that while most people may support the original actions taken by the moderating crew, very few, I've seen, support this 'gag-order' (If I may call it that) on the issue. And, in particular, may feel that it was a little of an overreaction.

If a discussion because just hostile with no real substance, then shut it down sure, but close it, don't delete it. I think everyone should see what happened rather than what happened here when a great deal of posters (me included) wondered what the Hell was going on and got it solely from the other side. Closing threads intended to enlighten the rest the community with just a 'I said so' post makes more people turn against the moderation rather than understanding the issue.

You can make your decision known and why you made it and say that you won't change it, but having people discuss it afterwards, as long as it doesn't develop into a flamewar, hurts nobody, IMO.

This, on the other hand... well..

[Chief Rum]

Alan: Thanks, you hit the nail on the head pretty good there. Go play OOTP6 and join an online league or two.

SI: If it matters any, I don't have any particular relationships wiht the posters mentioned. Although I am in an online league with Marmel and Shorty, I think they would agree I am more "around" than I am directly conversing and being friendly with everyone in those leagues. I have no prior connection to Suicane, Cringer or sabotai at in any form. So these aren't my "expatriates" as you would say. I am truly concerned about this community and all that dwell therein, not in bringing those specific posters back.

VPI: I am hoping we don't split this community, but instead have an adult discussion that either leads to change where needed as a consensus of the board, or keeping the status quo (if that is, in fact, the board's desire).

Personalyl, I think Sky Dog is the best moderator I have ever run into (well, you're pretty close ), and I think this is simply an area on which he and I have a difference of opinion. That said, I wouldn't have bothered with this thread if I didn't feel that the majority of the community would agree with me on the need to cease supressing opinion and discussion here.

CR

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by VPI97

You may.

As for this thread, what is there to discuss? The issue that is currently on the minds of many of those expatriates (gleaned from posts around the FOF community) seems to be whether SD was right in what he did and whether or not SD is fit to be moderator of this board. But at this point, what's the point of discussing either? After all, there's only two possible outcomes...both of which are going to split this community.

Agreed. If you want to bring about change then PM Skydog, like he has mentioned numerous times, but the fact of the matter is that he is the mod.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I am hoping we don't split this community, but instead have an adult discussion that either leads to change where needed as a consensus of the board, or keeping the status quo (if that is, in fact, the board's desire).

That's a nice intention, but from the opinions I've read, there's no chance of reaching a consensus on anything regarding this weekend. On one hand you have a group that seems to have always had issues with the way SD handles things and feel that the latest misstep is just the breaking point...on the other, you have a group that seems to think that even if SD mishandled things, the overall good that he has done as a moderator of this board gives him the leeway to not be perfect all of the time. None of those opinions are going to change.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Agreed. If you want to bring about change then PM Skydog, like he has mentioned numerous times, but the fact of the matter is that he is the mod.

But does that mean his moderation cannot be discussed? Is that the sort of community we want this to be?

I would imagine you would think of this differently if this community was exhanged with country, and Sky Dog with George Bush. What do you think the outcry would be if discussion of Bush's actions were suppressed? And keep in mind, I am someone who by and large supported Bush.

As for accusations of grandstanding, I can noyl say if anyone thinks I am doing this as some sort of cry for attention, then you must not have paid much attention to my posts for the past four years. I generally speak my mind and don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about it; there's evidence I don't really care to cater to the community's opinions of me. If I did, I would have a much "nicer" history, I am sure.

CR

[Tigercat]

My two cents, first of all i think SkyDog is a very good moderator, both in terms of his actions and the thought he puts behind his actions. He seems to be a smart and thoughtful guy. I think 95%+ of the people on this board stand and will continue to stand behind him as a great moderator.

Its for that very reason that i almost think its unessassary for him to be so heavy handed about issues like this. Its seems like open discussion of moderation issues is only a bad thing when the moderator has something to hide or a position that is not easily defendable. i don't think Ben will ever be in that sort of extreme position.

I think topics like this and others have their place in this community, because when people that are mainstays in the community leave, it is understandable that people want to talk about the change in their community.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by VPI97

That's a nice intention, but from the opinions I've read, there's no chance of reaching a consensus on anything regarding this weekend. On one hand you have a group that seems to have always had issues with the way SD handles things and feel that the latest misstep is just the breaking point...on the other, you have a group that seems to think that even if SD mishandled things, the overall good that he has done as a moderator of this board gives him the leeway to not be perfect all of the time. None of those opinions are going to change.

I think that's a polarized view of the community that might not actually bear out with further discussion. I believe we have a diverse neighborhood here, and we will see an opinion range that runs the gamut from the stances you stated, and even beyond both points.

I suppose maybe I am being optimistic, but I do think we can have a discussion that may convince Ben to ameliorate at least some small aspect of his moderation, at least with respect to his handling of discussions of the handling of this board.

CR

[LionsFan10]

Well,

I may not have a whole shit load of posts here, but I've been around since the beginning. Back when FOF had it's very first message board. I've seen people come and go from this community for a long, long time and while I don't believe EVERYTHING SkyDog does is perfect or correct in my opinion, I do believe the only reason this community has stayed so tight knit and close, as well as lasted so long is because of the no-nonsense policy that the moderators such as SkyDog and those before him have had up until this point. Like I said, that doesn't mean I believe or agree with every decision the mod's make, I do believe it is because of them that we still have this place.

Just my $0.02

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But does that mean his moderation cannot be discussed? Is that the sort of community we want this to be?

I would imagine you would think of this differently if this community was exhanged with country, and Sky Dog with George Bush. What do you think the outcry would be if discussion of Bush's actions were suppressed? And keep in mind, I am someone who by and large supported Bush.

As for accusations of grandstanding, I can noyl say if anyone thinks I am doing this as some sort of cry for attention, then you must not have paid much attention to my posts for the past four years. I generally speak my mind and don't give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about it; there's evidence I don't really care to cater to the community's opinions of me. If I did, I would have a much "nicer" history, I am sure.

CR

It's really up to him to decide. It's not fair to compare an internet message board to running the country. One is a democracy, the other is run by a fair and benovolent dictator . My feelings on the subject are that anyone who is not an idiot knows where SkyDog's boundaries are because he is very clear about where they are, and anyone who chooses to press them knows full well what they are getting into. That would include discussing the reasons for the banning of people. Have all the bannings been perfectly fair? I'm sure they haven't, but that's between the bannee and the mod. Allowing discussion of it on the board only creates animosity and undermines the whole point of banning the person in the first place.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I suppose maybe I am being optimistic, but I do think we can have a discussion that may convince Ben to ameliorate at least some small aspect of his moderation, at least with respect to his handling of discussions of the handling of this board.

Is that what we're looking to accomplish? To have SD change his style of moderating? If we're looking for a resolution that would make the major participants happy, I don't think that's it. I mean if some are saying that they'll only return is SD is removed, then a change of his 'style' isn't the end result that they want.

Now if you want to write off those posters as acceptable losses and move onto how SD's style should be for the remainder of us, then I really think that's an issue that SD needs to determine for himself.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

It's really up to him to decide. It's not fair to compare an internet message board to running the country. One is a democracy, the other is run by a fair and benovolent dictator . My feelings on the subject are that anyone who is not an idiot knows where SkyDog's boundaries are because he is very clear about where they are, and anyone who chooses to press them knows full well what they are getting into. That would include discussing the reasons for the banning of people. Have all the bannings been perfectly fair? I'm sure they haven't, but that's between the bannee and the mod. Allowing discussion of it on the board only creates animosity and undermines the whole point of banning the person in the first place.

I agree that open animosity is certainly a risk in any discussion, be it about board moderation, religion, college football playoff systems or the proper coloring of Skydog's patriotic undies.

But discussions bring benefits with them as well. It can lead to harmony and understanding of decisions. It can eliminate or at least severely minimalize the behind the scenes back talk that is at this very moment undermining the strength of this community, spreading on other boards. It can set a precedent for free and open discussion here at FOFC, which in the past has been a strong point not found on too many other Internet boards. Animosity is not a given--but I see many of these other benefits as far more likely to occur. So keeping the lid on most discussions (of which I think this is one) is detrimental to the longterm health of the community.

As for your very last point, I disagree that discussion undermines the banning decision. SkyDog is here to make those decisions, and no one is calling for him to reverse those bannings (at leats no one yet here). Discussion here has no effect on the banning, nor should it. Ben should stand by his decision to ban, as I am sure he will, for to do less calls into question his ability as a moderator.

The discussion is not to overturn past decisions, so much as to give Skydog at least some window into the community's opinion of that decision, where he can properly evaluate it and, if needed, make changes to his moderation in the future so that it better fits with the majority opinion of this community, which last I checked he is technically serving in this capacity.

To suppress that discussion not only inhibits the exchange of ideas here, it can alienate a good percentage of the community and make it a shell of itself when people stop posting here, and it can remove Skydog from his link with the community, putting him out of touch with the community consiousness.

CR

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Is that what we're looking to accomplish? To have SD change his style of moderating? If we're looking for a resolution that would make the major participants happy, I don't think that's it. I mean if some are saying that they'll only return is SD is removed, then a change of his 'style' isn't the end result that they want.

Now if you want to write off those posters as acceptable losses and move onto how SD's style should be for the remainder of us, then I really think that's an issue that SD needs to determine for himself.

My goal is to ask the community to supply their opinions on the matter, so that Ben can get a read on our opinion of what he did, and if necessary, to consider making any changes in small aspects of his approach to moderating this board.

I'm not even concretely certain Ben needs to change a single thing--I just feel suppressing discussion of his decisions and deleting whole threads and posts are not the way to do so. If few others feel as I do, then Ben will go on his way, I'll be suspended at least, return in a few days, and we'll go on from there. Needless to say, I am hoping for better than that, though.

I'm not seeking a decision to make those five or others banned happy. I'm seeking an effect on future decisions that will aid the continued growth and community here at FOFC. If that includes those five, that is up to them. If they won't return until Skydog is gone, well, then, they are as good as gone, because I for one support SkyDog moderating this forum, and I don't think he should have to acquiesce to please them.

As for your second paragrapg, obviously that is the crux of the situation I am looking at, but as it stands right now, I don't believe Ben is inclined to even consider changes to his approach. So my hope in this discussion is to present a community opinion that suggests he might consider ameliorating his decisions with regards to how he handles discussions of his moderation of the board.

CR

[Eaglesfan27]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with a Bruin, but I agree with just about everything you stated in this thread CR.

I think Ben is the best moderator I've ever seen, but I think you bring up some very valid points in this thread.

[stevew]

Prediction

Thread: Deleted
Rum:Possibly in the Box
Alphabet:Worked to death by Chief



(nice fleecing of andy the other day BTW)

[Cringer]

OK, i will put a few things here and then exit stage left again. First off, I have not completely ropped of these boards. Cutting way back? Yes. My main purpose for remaining here is in order to be able to post in the MP Matchmaking Forum when the Imperial League has an opening. Now, on to a couple of the reasons I have a big problem with Skydog in this thing.

1. Understand that there are special and rare circumstances surrounding the post and thread deletions. Y'all should know by now that I *VERY* rarely delete a single post around here, much less an entire thread. If something needs to be taken down, I just edit the most egregious stuff. Understand that this is an extreme rarity of a situation.

Special and rare circumstances? Yes, I guess that it is not every day someone makes a smart-ass comment about Fido. Well someone did, so what? Smart ass comments are made all the time here, and this was not some hate filled rant. "That is not the kind of ass kissing that is going to bring back Fido." That was what sovereignstar put, and he was suspended for it. I think that is jumping the gun. When I found out why he jumped the gun, because HE wants a utility for the game, I thought it was a joke. Anyways, we then get pots deleted from myself and Suicane that were trying to tell others who got suspended and why? These were deleted. I can only assume these were deleted because he did not want what was said by sovereignstar anywhere on the board, because why? Fido might happen to pick this day to stop by and give out his utility? I am sorry, but going to such lengths to protect a guy who choose to leave and does not really come back at all is just a little over the top. If it was 5 or 6 posts of hate filled B.S. then fine, that is not needed. This is one of my big gripes, the protection of someone's feelings at such great lengths, someone who does not come to this board any more.

4. I missed a setting on Cringer's minor punishment, and his PM ability has now been restored. I told him that a certain type of stuff wasn't going to be allowed to be posted, and so he put it in his signature line rather than "posting" it. Again, knowing that there are special circumstances here that he doesn't fully understand, my intention was to give him a very minor penalty: no usage of signatures for a few days until this blows over. The PM removal was an accident related to the way usergroups work in the admins' control panel. His PM ability has now been restored. My bad on that one.

Did anyone know that if you made a smartass remark about Fido you then got suspended? That is what i figure he is talking about when he says there were special circumstances that I did not understand. Sorry, I missed the "No Fido Talk" warning in the stickied thread at the top. On to what he says he told me. I like this one because I remember being told of nothing. Whatever I posted was deleted, simple as that. If he said not to post something in one of these threads, then he must have deleted the whole thread to fast for me to see it. I would bet a pretty large sum of money though that nowhere did he tell me I can not say anything about Fido, or about what was said about Fido. That right there is my next big gripe, I was never told this stuff yet he says he did.

I have never had any kind of grudge with Skydog before this, I was fairly nuetral. He was pretty much just one of the guys on this board to me. SO this is not a personal thing. And I can not say that I completely want him removed. Perhaps a change in policy that a smartass remark about someone does not lead to someones suspension. Perhaps a change in policy that you simply delete a post and then suspend that person without saying a word to anyone about it or the reason why, this includes the people suspended.

If it was not for a completely ludicrous suspension in the first place sovereignstar never would have been banned, and that is something that is being looked past as well here. I know there is a camp that feels the way Skydog does, that this damn utitlity is so freaking important that who cares who bites the dust in our quest to get him and it back, and that is pretty sad to me. So lets keep deleting posts whenever someone has something bad to say about Fido. I can guarantee that if the next 10 guys called me an asshole as I walk out the door here for the next week, not one of them would be suspended. I have been called names before here and nothing has been done, as well as have others. Thats fine though, I hope you get your utility.

One last note. This is not about Fido himself, I have no problem with him. I have the same connection with him as I do any of you guys, that we all post here and enjoy it. He just happens to be the subject of the protection going on here. I know there are those who love the guy, and those who do not like him. I am not in either of those, I simply do not like what has happened.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Cringer

OK, i will put a few things here and then exit stage left again. First off, I have not completely ropped of these boards. Cutting way back? Yes. My main purpose for remaining here is in order to be able to post in the MP Matchmaking Forum when the Imperial League has an opening. Now, on to a couple of the reasons I have a big problem with Skydog in this thing.


Special and rare circumstances? Yes, I guess that it is not every day someone makes a smart-ass comment about Fido. Well someone did, so what? Smart ass comments are made all the time here, and this was not some hate filled rant. "That is not the kind of ass kissing that is going to bring back Fido." That was what sovereignstar put, and he was suspended for it. I think that is jumping the gun. When I found out why he jumped the gun, because HE wants a utility for the game, I thought it was a joke. Anyways, we then get pots deleted from myself and Suicane that were trying to tell others who got suspended and why? These were deleted. I can only assume these were deleted because he did not want what was said by sovereignstar anywhere on the board, because why? Fido might happen to pick this day to stop by and give out his utility? I am sorry, but going to such lengths to protect a guy who choose to leave and does not really come back at all is just a little over the top. If it was 5 or 6 posts of hate filled B.S. then fine, that is not needed. This is one of my big gripes, the protection of someone's feelings at such great lengths, someone who does not come to this board any more.



Did anyone know that if you made a smartass remark about Fido you then got suspended? That is what i figure he is talking about when he says there were special circumstances that I did not understand. Sorry, I missed the "No Fido Talk" warning in the stickied thread at the top. On to what he says he told me. I like this one because I remember being told of nothing. Whatever I posted was deleted, simple as that. If he said not to post something in one of these threads, then he must have deleted the whole thread to fast for me to see it. I would bet a pretty large sum of money though that nowhere did he tell me I can not say anything about Fido, or about what was said about Fido. That right there is my next big gripe, I was never told this stuff yet he says he did.

I have never had any kind of grudge with Skydog before this, I was fairly nuetral. He was pretty much just one of the guys on this board to me. SO this is not a personal thing. And I can not say that I completely want him removed. Perhaps a change in policy that a smartass remark about someone does not lead to someones suspension. Perhaps a change in policy that you simply delete a post and then suspend that person without saying a word to anyone about it or the reason why, this includes the people suspended.

If it was not for a completely ludicrous suspension in the first place sovereignstar never would have been banned, and that is something that is being looked past as well here. I know there is a camp that feels the way Skydog does, that this damn utitlity is so freaking important that who cares who bites the dust in our quest to get him and it back, and that is pretty sad to me. So lets keep deleting posts whenever someone has something bad to say about Fido. I can guarantee that if the next 10 guys called me an asshole as I walk out the door here for the next week, not one of them would be suspended. I have been called names before here and nothing has been done, as well as have others. Thats fine though, I hope you get your utility.

One last note. This is not about Fido himself, I have no problem with him. I have the same connection with him as I do any of you guys, that we all post here and enjoy it. He just happens to be the subject of the protection going on here. I know there are those who love the guy, and those who do not like him. I am not in either of those, I simply do not like what has happened.

Dude, all the asskissing in the world is not gonna bring SovStar back

[Chief Rum]

While I welcome Cringer's contribution to this thread, why do I get the feeling his post has moved this thread from a 70-30 chance of being deleted to a 99-1 chance?

That said, I support your right to post it, Cringer.

CR

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by stevew

Prediction

Thread: Deleted
Rum:Possibly in the Box
Alphabet:Worked to death by Chief



(nice fleecing of andy the other day BTW)

lol...it was a good deal. As a team policy, I refuse to make any other comments about that trade.

My guess is your prediction is 100% true, and if so, I'll take my lumps and move on (from the discussion, not the community).

CR

[Honolulu_Blue]

Wow. A lot has happened. I have no idea about any of this draaaama. I am not even sure I know who Fido is. Exciting times. Have we become the Los Angeles Lakers of the internet?

Whatever...

[dawgfan]

First off, many thanks to CR for starting this thread and expressing his feelings in a civilized and well-thought-out manner.

I'm troubled by SkyDog's actions as I mentioned to him in a PM. Not necessarily for banning sov, but for his locking of any and all threads that discussed the situation and called into question his actions. That to me was the biggest issue - that he was not going to tolerate any discussion about his moderating decisions.

I fully understand that moderating a forum is a tough job and you're never going to have everybody agree with everything you do. For the most part I think he's done a very good job, but to squelch any public discussion of his performance doesn't sit right with me. My understanding is that this is a public forum and that it's not SkyDog's forum - just that he (and Ryan S) have been given the trust of the community to oversee the moderation of it. Suppression of public discussion of his actions to me only invites greater scrutiny of what he's done - why should such discussions have to be conducted in private? So long as the discussions are civil and don't devolve into flame wars, why the need to keep them under wraps? Had he simply allowed people to talk about this situation from the start without locking and deleting threads, this discussion would likely not even be taking place right now.

As I pointed out to Ben in my PM to him, I find it ironic and a bit hypocritical that he has actively engaged in observing other public squabbles on this board, yet when discussion turns to his own decisions and actions, he terms it grandstanding and trolling and quashes it.

It is interesting to hear Cringer's side of the story and the reason why sov was put in the penalty box in the first place, and I admit I'm troubled by the implications put forth. I'd like to hear Ben's counterpoint.

I hope that he softens his stance and realizes the value in allowing civilized discussion of his decisions. If such threads turn into flame wars and trolling, fine - then lock the threads (but don't delete them - let them stay visible so all can see for themselves why the thread needed to be locked). I hope this thread remains civilized as well, and I will be deeply disappointed if it remains so and SkyDog still feels a need to lock it.

[Ben E Lou]

Look, there is nothing sinister going on here. All I wanted was to keep from setting Fido off again, because I want an updated version of FOF Reporter. The ONLY reason that I didn't want the matter discussed publicly afterward because I know that he lurks here from time to time. Based on his past behavior, I have a pretty good idea that seeing such a discussion would have brought back up the thread in which he was criticized, and bringing back up said thread was/is a surefire way to pretty much assure that FOF Reporter is dead. I had a very specific standard for which posts I deleted and thread that I locked: if this continues, will it lead back to Fido discussion? There were some things that I let stay in the locked threads; that's why. Ultimately, I don't mind civilized discussion of my decisions, as was said above, but in this case, even civilized discussion would have brought back up the Fido drama--the very thing I was trying to prevent. That's why I did what I did. Nothing more. Nothing less. I just wanted the damn utility. I figured that, like any other of the "drama" situtions that have shown up, this one would die out once the weekend was over, get pushed to the bottom, and Fido would never have to see it.

Obviously, I was incorrect in that assessment.

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.

All accounts have been restored to their pre-Friday status, with the exception of sovereignstar. The fact remains that he posted while under suspension. Due to mitigating circumstances, I've reduced his punishment from banning to an extra 12 hours, and that time will expire at 7:00AM EST today.

I'm sorry.

--Ben

(EDITED FOR TWO MINOR TYPOS)

[SirFozzie]

That's the action of a big man, Ben.

I have my own opinion on this whole thing, but I'll keep my mouth shut, and hope that we can return to the status quo quickly.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Look, there is nothing sinister going on here. All I wanted was to keep from setting Fido off again, because I want an updated version of FOF Reporter. The ONLY reason that I didn't want the matter discussed publicly afterward because I know that he lurks here from time to time. Based on his past behavior, I have a pretty good idea that seeing such a discussion would have brought back up the thread in which he was criticized, and bringing back up said thread was/is a surefire was to pretty much assure that FOF Reporter is dead. I had a very specific standard for which posts I deleted and thread that I locked: if this continues, will it lead back to Fido discussion. There were some things that I let stay in the locked threads; that's why. Ultimately, I don't mind civilized discussion of my decisions, as was said above, but in this case, even civilized discussion would have brought back up the Fido drama--the very thing I was trying to prevent. That's why I did what I did. Nothing more. Nothing less. I just wanted the damn utility. I figured that, like any other of the "drama" situtions that have shown up, this one would die out once the weekend was over, get pushed to the bottom, and Fido would never have to see it.

Obviously, I was incorrect in that assessment.

It is now clear that this isn't going to die, because I went too far this time. My bad. I had tunnel vision on this one, and didn't see the bigger picture. I shouldn't have valued Fido's utility over the rest of the community. My deepest, most sincere apologies all around, and I highly doubt something like this will happen again, as I've learned much from it.

All accounts have been restored to their pre-Friday status, with the exception of sovereignstar. The fact remains that he posted while under suspension. Due to mitigating circumstances, I've reduced his punishment from banning to an extra 12 hours, and that time will expire at 7:00AM EST today.

I'm sorry.

--Ben

Well, I am still lost and missed all this hub-bub, but I think I'm pretty happy that way. But I must say, SkyDog, admitting that what you did was wrong, your response, and keen sense of self speak highly of your character. Something that no one who has been around here for too long should be all that surprised of. Well done, it's not an easy thing to do. Let's hope everyone else involved can a deep breath, realize what happened for what it really is (not all that much), and come back to the community.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and incidentally, in the midst of all of this, I realized late yesterday that I am not receiving any e-mails on my bellsouth account--the one that most of you have and the one that my PM/Message notifications come to from this board. I've read all my PM's, but if any of you e-mail me after around 3:45AM Sunday (the last bellsouth e-mail I received), then I haven't seen it yet. Until you hear otherwise, use the ben AT benelou.com to e-mail me (but once you hear otherwise, go back to benlewis AT bellsouth.net, because I only check the benelou e-mail from my home desktop machine. The bellsouth one is my main account, and gets checked every minute from home and the office).

--Ben

[Axxon]

Great post Skydog.

This is the reason why I support your moderation of this site 100%. We can't always make the right decisions in the heat of battle and it takes a big man to reevaluate his choices, own up to the wrong ones then correct them.

If more people acted this way, maybe I wouldn't hate people so much.

For the record, I pretty much nailed what had happened here and told a couple of people in PM's. The only thing is, I said you really didn't have a good way out of the situation but I was wrong. Honesty worked really good and the situation should hopefully be over now.

Keep up the good work.

[Icy]

I must admit i was pissed after reading here something about good members banned without being able for the rest of us to know the reasons, i had to read about it this orning at other boards as couldn't find here the whole info and didn't know what was going on. I think that was the worst mistake, to limit the freedom of speach. I have my own opinion about Fido and if i consider him more or less important than other fofc members who don't develop utilities but contribute a lot to this community. What makes me come back here everyday is not a a football game and it's mods but the community we have here.

Now after reading Skydog post i'm happy again, you need to have big nuts to recognice in public that you were wrong and Skydog did it so he has my full respect again. To be a mod over a great board must be a huge work for sure and also an easy way to make enemies as not everybody will agree with your decisions, but nobody should use his power to limit the freedom of speach as long as it keeps out of trolling or badmouthing without sense. I hope we all learned something from this and that the old members who are thinking or already left the board will come back as they are a big part of this community as all us are like the community word means.

Skydog walked the first step, now is the time for the others that were into this fight to show that they can act the same way. We have the best online community here, let's keep it that way.

[MIJB#19]

Classy post, SD.

[Blackadar]

I don't know what happened, but SkyDog is the MAN and has my full support. I'm going back to playing Worlds of Warcraft now. See you in a couple more weeks.

[Flasch186]

I have tears in my eyes, literally...is that pathetic?

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I have tears in my eyes, literally...is that pathetic?

yes

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by Icy

Skydog walked the first step, now is the time for the others that were into this fight to show that they can act the same way. We have the best online community here, let's keep it that way.

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

My opinion is this:

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

I have tears in my eyes, literally...is that pathetic?

You dramatic types are just so... dramatic.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

Agreed. Thank you, Skydog. I agree with the others who say we've got a great community here, one of the best out there. Problems have and will occur, but I sincerely hope we can press through them so that FOFC will remain at the top of my bookmarks list for a long time.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

My opinion is this:

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

Well stated, Buzz.

But this incident is only the tip of the iceberg around here, in my opinion. I’ve felt for sometime now that the board was in the midst of a general spiral downward. It really became clear to me with the spiteful shit that flew during the election lead-up, but the signs were already there prior to that, and they remain still. Too little respect, too much selfish crap. Whatever happened has become imbedded in the fabric of this community. It has truly soured the experience.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

Here's the thing - and this is coming from someone who thinks SD should be praised for doing such a thankless job so conscientiously, and would not want him replaced - the "my moderation decisions cannot be discussed publicly" stance is just plain wrong. He continually locks/deletes threads that criticize his decisions, meanwhile talking out of the other side of his mouth that all opinions are welcome here as long as they are stated in a civil manner. Quieting public dissention is rule #1 in the dictator's guide to keeping power. Not that I think SD is trying to truly trying to be a dictator here, but that particular policy certainly smacks of it. While I agree wholeheartedly that what Ben brings to this board as a moderator and member far outweighs the negative, I think that this policy does the board more harm than good, especially when it encourages valued members to leave.

Ben, whether you want it to be the case or not, moderation decisions are a legitimate topic of discussion. They are part of what happens in our community, and we should be able to express dissenting opinions, if we truly want an open forum.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

Thats ok, but then it would be on them and not becuase of an issue. Like Ben said, he learned from this, not is coalescing to demands, but actually sees that perhaps he didnt handle this the best way possible. Thats what is wonderful about being an adult, being able to learn from your mistakes and move forward with new knowledge.

If some people hold a grudge than that is their own fault. Forgiveness must be given before it can be gotten. I think it is a beautiful thing and will make our communtiy stronger....utilities shmootilities, its us that make the FOFC this huge (i guess there is a game out there to that some of us like but...) its us that make it big.

We can come in here and tell stories about our lives with abbreviations, its us that can post pictures of our shaved heads in support of our father, its us who can post pictures of ourselves in our undies, its us who say prayers for eachother when something terrible happened or might, its FOFC that can smack eachother around a bit when we get drunk and start fights, its FOFC that can tell us how long to wait before calling the girl, its FOFC that can tell us what parts we need to make our new computer, its FOFC that can tell us why our political views are wrong, its FOFC that can let us trade games, and finally its FOFC that can bring all people of shapes sizes religions ages together. That is what the FOFC is about.....in essence we have transcended utilities and, no offense Jim, a game.....were a family. This was just simply, our Holiday squabble.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

See, there's the problem. SkyDog did admit that what he did was wrong, and apologized for it. However, those who took the most offense are the ones who will carry a grudge. You will see an attitude from them that if they hadn't squawked, then SkyDog would have just swept everthing under the rug. They will not see that SkyDog admitted he was wrong and tried to make amends for his actions. They will only focus on the negative, and will continue to directly or indirectly call for SD to step down.

My opinion is this:

SkyDog was wrong and admitted it. It took time and a strong reaction from the community for him to realize that his actions were inappropriate. However, he did realize his error, admitted it, and has made an effort to correct the wrong. Seems like the kind of moderator I'd like to have - one that can admit mistakes, who listens to the community as a whole rather than just a few individuals, and acts accordingly. The events of this weekend are a black mark on SkyDog's resume, but the overall good that SkyDog brings to this community, as a poster and as a moderator allow me to tolerate a fuck up every once in a while. Those who disagree with SkyDog's style of moderation will continue to do so, but I hope they can at least realize that while SD may not be perfect, he's a whole hell of a lot better than many alternatives.

I understand your point. However, if certain posters are going to use this as an excuse for SkyDog to "step down", then they can get out. It's his site, period, and he decides when he's had enough.

WSU, I agree the election stuff got out of hand. That's why, for the most part, I stopped visiting election threads. However, I think that was indiciative of the election in general across the entire country.

[Flasch186]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Well stated, Buzz.

But this incident is only the tip of the iceberg around here, in my opinion. I’ve felt for sometime now that the board was in the midst of a general spiral downward. It really became clear to me with the spiteful shit that flew during the election lead-up, but the signs were already there prior to that, and they remain still. Too little respect, too much selfish crap. Whatever happened has become imbedded in the fabric of this community. It has truly soured the experience.

well I havnt been here long but I was involved in much of the political debate and I guess Ill say on that note you didnt have to read it. I feel closer to those I debated with than not. I didnt take it personally, I found it fun and enlightening....its a shame you didnt.

HOWEVER, without having the past to consider, I find this to be a wonderful community and outside of mistakes that perhaps Ben made this weekend, wouldnt change a thing.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

Thats ok, but then it would be on them and not becuase of an issue. Like Ben said, he learned from this, not is coalescing to demands, but actually sees that perhaps he didnt handle this the best way possible. Thats what is wonderful about being an adult, being able to learn from your mistakes and move forward with new knowledge.

If some people hold a grudge than that is their own fault. Forgiveness must be given before it can be gotten. I think it is a beautiful thing and will make our communtiy stronger....utilities shmootilities, its us that make the FOFC this huge (i guess there is a game out there to that some of us like but...) its us that make it big.

We can come in here and tell stories about our lives with abbreviations, its us that can post pictures of our shaved heads in support of our father, its us who can post pictures of ourselves in our undies, its us who say prayers for eachother when something terrible happened or might, its FOFC that can smack eachother around a bit when we get drunk and start fights, its FOFC that can tell us how long to wait before calling the girl, its FOFC that can tell us what parts we need to make our new computer, its FOFC that can tell us why our political views are wrong, its FOFC that can let us trade games, and finally its FOFC that can bring all people of shapes sizes religions ages together. That is what the FOFC is about.....in essence we have transcended utilities and, no offense Jim, a game.....were a family. This was just simply, our Holiday squabble.

Remember this thread?

[Draft Dodger]

I'm impressed - I would have never expected SD to realize his mistake, and to admit it publicly. So, now I guess I can save my goodbye post.

Classy move Ben - you went a long way to restoring my faith in your ability to moderate this board.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Well stated, Buzz.

But this incident is only the tip of the iceberg around here, in my opinion. I’ve felt for sometime now that the board was in the midst of a general spiral downward. It really became clear to me with the spiteful shit that flew during the election lead-up, but the signs were already there prior to that, and they remain still. Too little respect, too much selfish crap. Whatever happened has become imbedded in the fabric of this community. It has truly soured the experience.

As someone who stays mainly over in the dynasty section, im didn't know who fido was, and dont really have a close affiliation with many of the people involved. I value the friendship of a select few here on the board, and i take everything they say with much more weight then others. WSU is one of those people, and to hear him say that makes me think. I have noticed similar patterns within the board, but the reasons behind it are unclear to me. Ive been with this board for 4 years now, and ive lost interest in the general discussion. It seems the logical debates and friendly conversations have become less and less likely as compred to some drama about some member getting his feelings hurt over a comment i didnt think was that bad. I have really only gotten involved in one drama issue ever, so id prefer to stay out of this one if possible. But id like to consider my views unbiased as i know little about either soverign or fido. It seems things like this are becoming more common, and unless it is changed(i dont know how, because i feel new membership has spurred this, and dont take that to mean if your new it you) i may stay permanantly over on the Dynasty Side. Many of the people i joined and spoke with for years have left over these events, and i fear that i may as well eventually if the ship is not righted. I have always disliked SkyDog as a moderator due to some very questionable decisions in my mind, and without knowing full well what happened this weekend i will withhold my comments on it. I just feel like the drama, or at least Skydog's view of drama has been increased....and then he stops any questioning. I understand full well the need for order and the moderator to be respected(which i do, dont get me wrong...especially after his post above), but i think part of what draws me here is the wealth of people with great insights into issues that i didnt ever see before. Hearing WSU complain, as well as privately speaking with 2 other members i hold in high regard, i just worry about the current direction. Im not sure any other person could do a better job overall, and ive been happy with Sky Dog since the day i joined...i just worry for the board about everything that has happened. We have lost many of our best over the past year, and i hope we can keep what we have left from that group. I have no solution, so i understand full well the task ahead for all of us, but i think EVERYONE(including those lie soveringstar) need to work on improving this. Understand that not everyone has the same sense of humor, think about what you say before typing it up, and i think we can really cut this stuff down. Hopefully we can restore this board to the respected forum it once was rom the state of degenerating into "just another board" it is becoming. Alright, im done, and i didnt take my own advice and re-read so we shall see how my jumbled thoughts came out.

[daedalus]

Good response, Ben. I have not always agreed with all you or your actions as a moderator but recent events have not changed my opinion of you as a moderator: you're a fairly hands off mod like Blackie was and a damn good one, like he was. I will say that I disagreed with closing up or locking all the threads that could have discussed this issue. Locking up kingjerkoff's thread, I have no problem with since, unlike Matthijs, I have no positive impression of him. All I see is an attempt to be the usual jackass he has always been (I doubt you will remember how back-and-forth discussion of whether or not people like him are worthwhile on a message board back in the old board's days). I think it would have been better to have left at least one up for the back and forth debate to have gone on. But, alas, that is an opinion of someone who was not in the line of fire and, thus, have a FAR easier time being neutral. Ultimately: dude, you may have and probably did screwed up some this time but, in light of what you have to deal with and how you have always been, fuck it. I'd rather have you and the way you mod fucking up now and again (you ARE human, right?) than some uptight, self-righteous jerkoff (see: SI's board) any day. The apology, though not directed at me nor involving me any, is greatly appreciated.

Good post and good discussion, Chief. Your efforts and patience in keeping the discussion going and on-topic is greatly appreciated. Good show. (Where are my dysnasties, though? Please? PLEASE?!?!!!!!! )

As for the rest of the crap that went on . . . Sorry, but sovereignstar isn't a real big loss in my eyes. Dude has constantly been attempting to push the envelope of the dos/don'ts the whole damn time he's here. C'mon. Give it a f'n rest already. There's a significant difference between "Oops, I screwed up. Sorry, guys." and "Let me see if I can push the boundary of what I can and cannot do and see how far I can get." It's old.

Much as I respect you, Cringer, putting shit in the signature line when Ben specifically ask you to not post about it is lame and 5th grade as all Hell.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by daedalus

Much as I respect you, Cringer, putting shit in the signature line when Ben specifically ask you to not post about it is lame and 5th grade as all Hell.

Ben should not be dictating to members what topics they comment on, period.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

Classy move Ben - you went a long way to restoring my faith in your ability to moderate this board.

I've always thought Ben has done an excellent job, but that thought was slipping pretty fast after the present incident - now I'm like DD on this one.

I would NEVER, EVER, want to moderate a forum, especially one as diverse as FOFC.


Todd