Official "wah" Beltre got robbed thread

stevew · 11-16-2004, 01:58 PM

Maybe we can separate out the crying over Beltre losing from other threads.

FBPro · 11-16-2004, 01:59 PM

Beltre did his own work.

Bomber · 11-16-2004, 02:01 PM

Beltre wasn't walked a lot so his numbers aren't inflated. Plus God hate him.

Vince · 11-16-2004, 02:03 PM

I don't think SackAttack is bemoaning the fact that he didn't win...just bemoaning the fact that he's not getting much recognition for putting together one of the best offensive seasons ever by a 3B.

Desnudo · 11-16-2004, 02:05 PM

I think Manny Ortiz was robbed.

Anthony · 11-16-2004, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince

I don't think SackAttack is bemoaning the fact that he didn't win...just bemoaning the fact that he's not getting much recognition for putting together one of the best offensive seasons ever by a 3B.

and what kind of recognition should he have received the last several years when it was looking like he was a bust? what kind of recognition should he get now that he put up great humbers in a contract year?

stevew · 11-16-2004, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think Manny Ortiz was robbed.

Vince · 11-16-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

and what kind of recognition should he have received the last several years when it was looking like he was a bust? what kind of recognition should he get now that he put up great humbers in a contract year?

Here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince

And I do think it sucks that Beltre is getting dismissed...but Beltre also has never done what he did before. If he can continue it, he'll get the respect he deserves. Look at Pujols -- he's had to deal with this for his entire career...but everyone knows him now because he's keeping it up.

He should get a little recognition. It's one of the best single seasons ever, for a 3B. People should look at that and say "Wow, that was good." Nobody really is.

Blackadar · 11-16-2004, 02:33 PM

Wow, that was good. Nice season. Enjoy the FA market.

Bonds is better.

SackAttack · 11-16-2004, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince

I don't think SackAttack is bemoaning the fact that he didn't win...just bemoaning the fact that he's not getting much recognition for putting together one of the best offensive seasons ever by a 3B.

Not just by a 3B, but in Dodger history.

Other than that, Vince nailed it. I'd have loved to see Beltre win. I can accept that Bonds won. What I have trouble parsing is the definition of "Most Valuable" that people seem to be using, where gaudy personal numbers > team achievement, but less-gaudy personal numbers + team achievement = dismissal.

Blackadar · 11-16-2004, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Not just by a 3B, but in Dodger history.

Other than that, Vince nailed it. I'd have loved to see Beltre win. I can accept that Bonds won. What I have trouble parsing is the definition of "Most Valuable" that people seem to be using, where gaudy personal numbers > team achievement, but less-gaudy personal numbers + team achievement = dismissal.

Huge difference in personal numbers > small difference in team achievement

In addition, since it's a personal award, that outweighs the team achievement in any case. Only a huge difference in team achievement overcome even a small difference in personal numbers.

stevew · 11-16-2004, 02:42 PM

Schmidt's 48 homers in 1980 are a helluva lot more impressive than Beltre's 48 homers in 2004.

The_herd · 11-16-2004, 03:18 PM

2nd in the MVP voting with 6 first place votes even though Bonds had the best offensive season in baseball history isn't recognition?

VPI97 · 11-16-2004, 03:20 PM

He's no Chipper Jones

VPI97 · 11-16-2004, 03:20 PM

dola -

JonInMiddleGA · 11-16-2004, 04:56 PM

Somewhere along the way, somebody just has to bring up the regular point about whether it is the player "most valuable" (presumably to his team) or if it's "the best/ most productive player" of the season. And then there's the point about how really "valuable" a player can be if his team isn't winning?

Although, in this case, as much as I can't stand Bonds, I don't know if he doesn't win on at least the first two counts anyway.

clintl · 11-16-2004, 06:31 PM

The Dodgers won one more game than the Giants during the regular season. And I guarantee that Bonds was responsible for a lot more Giants' wins than Beltre was responsible for Dodgers' wins. That makes Bonds more valuable. I really don't see how it's even debatable. Beltre had one of the greatest seasons ever for a 3B, but Bonds had possibly the greatest season ever by anyone.

johnnyshaka · 11-16-2004, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Not just by a 3B, but in Dodger history.

What does this have to do with anything??? Voters don't care about Dodger history, nor should they.

SackAttack · 11-16-2004, 07:45 PM

Considering they've played the last 40+ years in what has historically been one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball, I'd say that makes his season in the context of Dodger history relevant.

Draft Dodger · 11-16-2004, 07:56 PM

all the debate about the definition of the award, and no mention that teammates Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds were the 3rd, 4th and 5th most valuable players in the NL?

Glengoyne · 11-16-2004, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Schmidt's 48 homers in 1980 are a helluva lot more impressive than Beltre's 48 homers in 2004.

Was that in a strike shortened year? If not, why do I think that?

Draft Dodger · 11-16-2004, 08:23 PM

81 was the strike year, I think.

stevew · 11-16-2004, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Was that in a strike shortened year? If not, why do I think that?

Cause the next year he hit 31 over 101 games, and was on pace for another monster season.

MrBug708 · 11-16-2004, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintl

The Dodgers won one more game than the Giants during the regular season. And I guarantee that Bonds was responsible for a lot more Giants' wins than Beltre was responsible for Dodgers' wins. That makes Bonds more valuable. I really don't see how it's even debatable. Beltre had one of the greatest seasons ever for a 3B, but Bonds had possibly the greatest season ever by anyone.

Go ahead and prove it. I'm willing to listen....

MrBug708 · 11-16-2004, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

and what kind of recognition should he have received the last several years when it was looking like he was a bust? what kind of recognition should he get now that he put up great humbers in a contract year?

I like when you can call a 24 year old a "bust"

clintl · 11-16-2004, 10:25 PM

Win Shares:

Bonds 53
Beltre 37

Beltre isn't even the top 3B in baseball in win shares. Rolen is.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/wsnlpos

MrBug708 · 11-16-2004, 11:43 PM

No

Try again?

clintl · 11-16-2004, 11:47 PM

I think the burden is on you to prove why, in the face of overwhelming contrary statistical evidence, Beltre was more valuable than Bonds, if that's what you believe. Every way you look at the numbers, Bonds not only did more, he did a lot more, whether you're looking at OPS, Win Shares, OBP, or Slugging %. It's just not even a close call.

stevew · 11-16-2004, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

No

Try again?

Bug, you seem like a nice guy, but you may be the biggest homer on the planet.

Neuqua · 11-16-2004, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Bug, you seem like a nice guy, but you may be the biggest homer on the planet.

I can vouch for this being completely, absolutely, 100% true.

Glengoyne · 11-17-2004, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Bug, you seem like a nice guy, but you may be the biggest homer on the planet.

Definately in the running.

Sharpieman · 11-17-2004, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomber

Beltre wasn't walked a lot so his numbers aren't inflated. Plus God hate him.

I know your saying that as a joke, but Beltre's numbers WERE inflated, he was in a contract year.

MizzouRah · 11-17-2004, 06:45 AM

Another MVP who's team goes nowhere.

Todd

Samdari · 11-17-2004, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I like when you can call a 24 year old a "bust"

He's from Latin America, so he's actually 30, but has a false birth certificate saying he is 24.

MrBug708 · 11-17-2004, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samdari

He's from Latin America, so he's actually 30, but has a false birth certificate saying he is 24.

Well no, the Dodgers got in trouble for signing him when he was too young.

And homer I might, but what can I say My teams just win...

MrBug708 · 11-17-2004, 07:17 AM

Dola

SoCal teams have won Titles in Basketball, Baseball, College Football, MLS Soccer, Woman's Basketball, the Vaunted XFL, and even a Stanley Cup Appearance in hockey, all with the past 3 or 4 years

Just used to winning is all...

Samdari · 11-17-2004, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Well no, the Dodgers got in trouble for signing him when he was too young.

That is because his agent screwed up and falsified the certificate too young. Just wait until he is '28' and his body starts going south like someone in his mid-30's.

MrBug708 · 11-17-2004, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samdari

That is because his agent screwed up and falsified the certificate too young. Just wait until he is '28' and his body starts going south like someone in his mid-30's.

That would be pretty funny if true

Crapshoot · 11-17-2004, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Well no, the Dodgers got in trouble for signing him when he was too young.

And homer I might, but what can I say My teams just win...

Yes, The 1999-2003 period was bountiful.

The_herd · 11-17-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Dola

SoCal teams have won Titles in Basketball, Baseball, College Football, MLS Soccer, Woman's Basketball, the Vaunted XFL, and even a Stanley Cup Appearance in hockey, all with the past 3 or 4 years

Just used to winning is all...

Congrats, one of the most richest, most populous areas in the world can win titles in pro sports.

DeToxRox · 11-17-2004, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Dola

SoCal teams have won Titles in Basketball, Baseball, College Football, MLS Soccer, Woman's Basketball, the Vaunted XFL, and even a Stanley Cup Appearance in hockey, all with the past 3 or 4 years

Just used to winning is all...

two words..

DDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOIIIIITTTTTTTT

BASKETBALLLLLLLLLLLLL

11-16-2004, 01:59 PM	#2
FBPro College Starter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SE	Beltre did his own work. __________________ GM RayCo Raiders-est. 2004-2012 Charter member of the IHOF-RayCo GM GM Tennessee Titans PFL 2011-2014 GM Tennessee Titans FOWL 2020-2025

11-16-2004, 02:03 PM	#4
Vince Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Willow Glen, CA	I don't think SackAttack is bemoaning the fact that he didn't win...just bemoaning the fact that he's not getting much recognition for putting together one of the best offensive seasons ever by a 3B. __________________ Every time a Dodger scores a run, an angel has its wings ripped off by a demon, and is forced to tearfully beg the demon to cauterize the wounds.The demon will refuse, and the sobbing angel will lie in a puddle of angel blood and feathers for eternity, wondering why the Dodgers are allowed to score runs.That’s not me talking: that’s science. McCoveyChronicles.com.

11-16-2004, 03:18 PM	#13
The_herd College Starter Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Fort Lackland, Texas (San Antonio)	2nd in the MVP voting with 6 first place votes even though Bonds had the best offensive season in baseball history isn't recognition? __________________ Oakland Raiders: HFL's 1970 AC West Champs

11-16-2004, 03:20 PM	#14
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	He's no Chipper Jones __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

11-16-2004, 03:20 PM	#15
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	dola - __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

11-16-2004, 02:01 PM	#3
Bomber High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2004	Beltre wasn't walked a lot so his numbers aren't inflated. Plus God hate him.

11-16-2004, 02:05 PM	#5
Desnudo Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Here and There	I think Manny Ortiz was robbed.

11-16-2004, 02:33 PM	#9
Blackadar Retired Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fantasyland	Wow, that was good. Nice season. Enjoy the FA market. Bonds is better.

11-16-2004, 02:42 PM	#12
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Schmidt's 48 homers in 1980 are a helluva lot more impressive than Beltre's 48 homers in 2004.

11-16-2004, 04:56 PM	#16
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Somewhere along the way, somebody just has to bring up the regular point about whether it is the player "most valuable" (presumably to his team) or if it's "the best/ most productive player" of the season. And then there's the point about how really "valuable" a player can be if his team isn't winning? Although, in this case, as much as I can't stand Bonds, I don't know if he doesn't win on at least the first two counts anyway. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

11-16-2004, 06:31 PM	#17
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	The Dodgers won one more game than the Giants during the regular season. And I guarantee that Bonds was responsible for a lot more Giants' wins than Beltre was responsible for Dodgers' wins. That makes Bonds more valuable. I really don't see how it's even debatable. Beltre had one of the greatest seasons ever for a 3B, but Bonds had possibly the greatest season ever by anyone.

11-16-2004, 07:45 PM	#19
SackAttack Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Green Bay, WI	Considering they've played the last 40+ years in what has historically been one of the best pitcher's parks in baseball, I'd say that makes his season in the context of Dodger history relevant.

11-16-2004, 07:56 PM	#20
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	all the debate about the definition of the award, and no mention that teammates Pujols, Rolen and Edmonds were the 3rd, 4th and 5th most valuable players in the NL? __________________ Mile High Hockey

11-16-2004, 08:23 PM	#22
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	81 was the strike year, I think. __________________ Mile High Hockey

11-16-2004, 10:25 PM	#26
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	Win Shares: Bonds 53 Beltre 37 Beltre isn't even the top 3B in baseball in win shares. Rolen is. http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/wsnlpos

11-16-2004, 11:43 PM	#27
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	No Try again?

11-16-2004, 11:47 PM	#28
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	I think the burden is on you to prove why, in the face of overwhelming contrary statistical evidence, Beltre was more valuable than Bonds, if that's what you believe. Every way you look at the numbers, Bonds not only did more, he did a lot more, whether you're looking at OPS, Win Shares, OBP, or Slugging %. It's just not even a close call.

11-17-2004, 06:45 AM	#33
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	Another MVP who's team goes nowhere. Todd

11-17-2004, 07:17 AM	#36
MrBug708 Head Coach Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Whittier	Dola SoCal teams have won Titles in Basketball, Baseball, College Football, MLS Soccer, Woman's Basketball, the Vaunted XFL, and even a Stanley Cup Appearance in hockey, all with the past 3 or 4 years Just used to winning is all... Last edited by MrBug708 : 11-17-2004 at 07:17 AM.

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