OT: Hold'em - One more play along hand

[primelord]

I had another hand I was involved in that I found interesting and wanted to see how you guys would have played it. This is a different table though. UTG had shown himself to be very loose aggressive. The rest of the table seemed to be slightly loose aggressive.

2/4 Hold'em 10 handed

Preflop: Hero is the CO with Ad, Kd
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero re-raises, Button calls, SB caps, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Again I figure everyone would have 3 bet and called the cap so not really much reason pause here.

Flop: (25 sb) 7d, 6c, 3s (6 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero....

[primelord]

Apparently our hero left the table.

[SirFozzie]

Heh. Just saw this.

I have a hard time calling a 2 bet here. We have 6 outs, and from the betting pattern, it's going to cost us 4 bets and 8 Big Bets to see it through.

Fold.

[Simms]

This is why I hate loose-aggressive players (in spite of the money that can be made from them). It's probably just as equally likely that he's holding AA or KK as it is him holding something like A4 or 98 and seeing the straight draw on the flop. You really only saw him make one move pre-flop since both you and the SB re-raised. I'd probably put the SB on pocket pairs TT or higher. UTG, though, who the hell knows.

I generally bet fairly conservatively, so if I'm in this position, I probably call here, as long as I'm prepared to see the SB re-raise again. Not sure I'm comfortable capping here, but for two bets, I'd probably pay to see the turn.

Then again, with UTG and the SB going at it, I imagine every street will end up being capped. You need runner-runner for a flush draw, and if you give either of them any credibility whatsoever, an A or a K in the next two cards probably won't help you all that much.

I might be willing to pay to see the turn, but unless something great hits, and the other two quit their pissing match, I'd bail shortly thereafter. Of course, I hate playing AK for precisely this reason (AQ, too), so I'm usually inclined to throw it away in the face of aggression more often than I should.

[primelord]

Some very interesting thoughts there. One thing I want ot make sure everyone considers here is the insane size of the pot. We are getting 14:1 on the money here for a call with two over cards and the backdoor nut flush draw.

Simms - I had a similar read on the SB in this hand. So I figure the only hands we have to worry about him holding are AA and KK. And if he is holding KK we still have 3 ace outs and the back door flush draw. I realize that isn't a ton of outs, but he may have a lower pair and the pot is huge.

SirFozzie - The general theory is that you should count a back door flush draw as an additional 1.5 outs when deciding if you have the odds to call. So if you say we have 7.5 outs we only need to be getting about 5.25:1 on our money to make a call correct.

[primelord]

Preflop: Hero is the CO with Ad, Kd
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero re-raises, Button calls, SB caps, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (25 sb) 7d, 6c, 3s (6 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB re-raises, UTG caps, Hero calls, SB calls.

Again I didn't want to pause on the second call. I assume after the first cold call that we all agree you have to call the cap there.

Turn: (18.5 BB) Qd (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets (UTG is all-in), Hero...

[Huckleberry]

Raises, baby!

[Radii]

Raise, see how the SB likes his hand when he has to cold call 2. See who else stays in the pot. See who caps it(will anyone else cap it or only UTG)

I really don't think you can fold this before the turn.

It's unlikely you're up against AA or KK, thought certainly possible, I have no reason to believe it yet. Very possible that you dominate at least one of the hands in there, and very likely that all of your outs are good, I don't think you can fold just yet here.

[Radii]

quickdola, my post was referring to the flop, not the turn, hang on.

[Radii]

Raise the turn, UTG all in is nice, SB just showed some weakness, a raise by you might scare out SB's JJ or TT, etc.

[cthomer5000]

definitely raising since the other guy is all in.

[primelord]

Yeah I thought I should probably raise the turn as well. I didn't of course, but I thought I should. The SB has to think I have a hand at this point and seems to be scared of the Q so he might fold and let me get it heads up. I of course called. I suck.

Preflop: Hero is the CO with Ad, Kd
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero re-raises, Button calls, SB caps, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (25 sb) 7d, 6c, 3s (6 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB re-raises, UTG caps, Hero calls, SB calls.

Again I didn't want to pause on the second call. I assume after the first cold call that we all agree you have to call the cap there.

Turn: (18.5 BB) Qd (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets (UTG is all-in), Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (21.5 BB) 5d (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 23.5 BB

SB shows Js, Jh
UTG shows 3c, 4c
Hero plays good.

[primelord]

Since we were discussing actions in a large pot in the other thread I thought this one would be interesting since I thought there would be some people who might advocate throwing the hand away on the flop.

[Huckleberry]

This was a good hand to analyze, and not just because of your play. It shows us that if we're in the SB with the Jacks in that situation after the Q hits that a bet isn't a bad play just to get a read on the other players, right?

Of course, he was probably still screwed because with that much money in the pot you would have called the 1 bet. But it's interesting to think about.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

This was a good hand to analyze, and not just because of your play. It shows us that if we're in the SB with the Jacks in that situation after the Q hits that a bet isn't a bad play just to get a read on the other players, right?

Of course, he was probably still screwed because with that much money in the pot you would have called the 1 bet. But it's interesting to think about.

Yeah I am not certain why the Q scared him. There are quite a few hands not containing a Q that an average user might 3 bet preflop. And you can't give the UTG player credit for really anything.

You are right though with that much money in the pot I would have never folded. At that point I would have been getting 20.5:1 on my money. Anyone with as little as 3 outs would be correct in calling.