Euro 2004 Discussion

[Katon]

Random thoughts from Portugal-Greece:

* Luis Figo has a major attitude problem
* Ferreira's give-away just before the first goal was one of the most spectacular brain freezes I've ever seen in a major tournament. He stopped dead, the ball kept rolling
* For a team with 60% possession, Portugal sure were short on attacking threats
* A well organized team of lesser players can beat an incoherent team of talented basket cases nine times out of ten (see also the 2003-04 Champions' League). This, of course, makes my pick of Holland to reach the final really, really stupid

[sachmo71]

What sport are you talking about?

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Katon

Random thoughts from Portugal-Greece:

* Luis Figo has a major attitude problem
* Ferreira's give-away just before the first goal was one of the most spectacular brain freezes I've ever seen in a major tournament. He stopped dead, the ball kept rolling
* For a team with 60% possession, Portugal sure were short on attacking threats
* A well organized team of lesser players can beat an incoherent team of talented basket cases nine times out of ten (see also the 2003-04 Champions' League). This, of course, makes my pick of Holland to reach the final really, really stupid

Ronaldo and Deco should have started. And they should have subbed out their useless strikers at halftime. And watching Portugal was kind of like watching an NBA game.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Ronaldo and Deco should have started. And they should have subbed out their useless strikers at halftime. And watching Portugal was kind of like watching an NBA game.

Care to elaborate for someone who isn't on the same continent as the NBA?

Deco and Ronaldo were certainly much more useful than Rui Costa and Simao, although I'm not sure how good an idea it was to move Deco out right and Figo into the middle. Most of Ronaldo's crosses kept needing someone to show up at the far post and Deco wasn't doing that.

Watching Spain-Russia now and Spain look a much better side than Portugal - the class of the group. How many good wingers do they have, anyway? Vicente and Exteberria have been their most threatening players, they've got Joaquin on the becnh . . .

[atatange1]

How is Real player's Euro Pass working for everyone? I didn't think I would get it but for $15 i figured why not. Its has been one pain in the ass so far. For me atleast.

[MIJB#19]

Interesting Scenario in group A now.
Scores:
Portugal 1-2 Greece
Spain 1-0 Russia

Standings:
1. Greece 3 pt (2-1)
2. Spain 3 pt (1-0)
3. Portugal 0 pt (1-2)
4. Russia 0 pt (0-1)

Next up:
Greece-Spain
The winner advances if the team they beat today doesn't lose.
Spain ned a victory to be able to beat Greece on tiebreakers.
In case of a draw the Greeks have a goal scored more at the moment.
Greece have a mental advantage over their better head-to-head in the qualifiers.
Both teams know that draws in the two remaining games are enough to advance into the last 8.
MIJ scenario: 0-0 draw
Spain know Greece's strenght and won't be upset, yet feel the pressure to win to stay ahead of Portugal and don't have to beat the host. Greece dare to settle for a draw having their relative easiest opponent left with Russia.

Russia-Portugal
The loser is eliminated if the team that beat them loses.
Portugal have the most credit to lose, as if they still have credit.
Additionally, Portugal have a chemistry problem.
Russia have a reputation to only play well in game three of group play.
A victory is very much needed for each team, no doubt.
Two victories look like the only escape for either team to head into the last 8.
MIJ scenario: depends on other game
If Spain beat Greece, Russia could dare to settle for a draw and gamble on beating Greece. In this scenario, I could see the game end up in a 1-1 draw.
With a draw in the other game, Portugal will be motivated knowing they still have a shot at winning the group. In this scenario, I can see Portugal win 2-0.
If Greece upset Spain, Portugal will think they need to win by 2 or more to make the goal difference count, while Russia should know that they need a victory to keep it in own hands, but I bet the Russians will focus on counter attacks. In the end, I project Portugal to in by one, like 2-1.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Katon

Deco and Ronaldo were certainly much more useful than Rui Costa and Simao, although I'm not sure how good an idea it was to move Deco out right and Figo into the middle. Most of Ronaldo's crosses kept needing someone to show up at the far post and Deco wasn't doing that.

Deco and Ronaldo really did seem to add a spark when they came on. Although in both games today, all the teams seemed to really show the Portugese heat in the second halves so some of that is down to tired legs. Figo disappoints me with his pouting (although it shouldn't, he did the same thing at the World Cup two years ago). He is the captain of the team, and he was pouting after the first 15 minutes. His mood is the mood of the team, and they all showed very little fight in the first half. Did anyone else think that the Greek team looked like a big blue wall?

Originally Posted by Katon

Watching Spain-Russia now and Spain look a much better side than Portugal - the class of the group. How many good wingers do they have, anyway? Vicente and Exteberria have been their most threatening players, they've got Joaquin on the becnh . . .

Spain's wide players are awesome. They provided room in the middle for Raul and Morientes to work, but Baraja and Albelda were still back at mid-field so they had problems up there by themselves. I kept waiting for Spain to score another goal. They are going to need it in this group. Oh, and Puyol can play in my team any day!

A note on the upcoming matches in this group. Unfortunately the referee in the second match has made an attempt to determine the outcome of the next matches. His flurry of yellow cards was a disgrace. Shirt tugs and 50-50 tackles do not deserve yellow cards. Now, Russia, already looking for centerbacks in the crowd, are in deep trouble. And the yellow cards to Baraja and Albelda could take some of the teeth out of Spain's midfield.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Katon

Care to elaborate for someone who isn't on the same continent as the NBA?

I meant that it seemed liked Portugal would have 10 guys standing around while one guy, mainly Figo then Ronaldo, dribbled around and tried to cross the ball or get a shot off. No team action, like was mentioned. Kind of like the NBA offenses of today where someone stands around dribbling and then goes one on one against a double team.

In other news, does anyone else think that Spain has at least 2-3 Mullet of the Tournament candidates? I think Torres could take World Mullet of the Year.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I meant that it seemed liked Portugal would have 10 guys standing around while one guy, mainly Figo then Ronaldo, dribbled around and tried to cross the ball or get a shot off. No team action, like was mentioned. Kind of like the NBA offenses of today where someone stands around dribbling and then goes one on one against a double team.

In other news, does anyone else think that Spain has at least 2-3 Mullet of the Tournament candidates? I think Torres could take World Mullet of the Year.

Ah. Yes, that is a fair description - see the above comment about nobody being at the far post for Ronaldo's crosses, which the BBC commentators were obsessing about. If Portugal don't get their act together for the Russia game, they won't win it and might very well lose, which would leave them completely eliminated. Of course, even if they do win, they would still need a result from the Spain match which it's kind of hard to see them getting.

And yes, Torres does have a quite spectacular mullet. Great player, but really silly hair. *

[Chief Rum]

The BBC is broadcasting this? I get the BBC on my cable system.

I thought it was all PPV (besides that Euro Internet deal).

CR

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The BBC is broadcasting this? I get the BBC on my cable system.

I thought it was all PPV (besides that Euro Internet deal).

CR

I think you are thinking of BBC America. Two different channels, and the American version is not broadcasting it unfortunately.

Also, as to the internet pass, I purchased it, and every time I go to log in to the service, it tells me the Real Player has encountered an error, and it closes the program. I have tried re-installing a couple times, and keep getting that message Nice waste of 15 bucks to this point.

[Katon]

Switzerland-Croatia just finished. More card-happy refereeing, one of the most boring matches I can remember seeing at a major finals, and neither side looks to have a hope in hell of keeping France or England out of the knockout stages.

[MikeVic]

WOW. Zidane.. wow...

[atatange1]

France 2 - England 1. I think Beckham might be in a bit of trouble for missing that penalty.

[Katon]

And don't forget Heskey for giving away that free kick. There's also the question of what Gerrard thought he was doing with that last backpass.

More general comments to follow at some point tomorrow.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

WOW. Zidane.. wow...

same here, WOW

Else great defense by england (except on the last action of course )

[ice4277]

For those who have not been able to follow the game:

England led 1-0 thanks to a first-half goal by Frank Lampard off a nice David Beckham free kick. Cut to the second half, and England are awarded a penalty kick, however, Beckham misses and it is still 1-0 with about 15 mins left to go. Early in stoppage time, a foul by England gave France a free kick on the edge of the box, which Zidane took and converted into a goal for a late equalizer, 1-1. However, they weren't done yet, as France quickly came back down, lazy defending by England causing James to come out and foul one of the French players (Henry?) and the ref awards a penalty. Zidane converts, the ref blows the whistle for full-time, and France completes one of the more unexpected combacks of all-time, with two goals in the extra time. Think Man U/Bayern Munich, only crazier. Wow.

[scooter]

Actually Beckham didn't miss the penalty, Barthez saved it (and a yard or two off his line too, but they never call that anyway!). I think it's a case of one too many practice penalties against each other back in their ManU days.

Heskey's foul was foul. You've got to give him credit for tracking back to play some defense, but Viera wasn't really going anywhere. I knew when they gave him the foul, France were going to score. Zidane is a master in those situations.

Gerard's back pass was a major brain fart. I still don't know why he didn't boot the ball upfield like they had done the last 200 times. You had to think that passing back to Calamity James in injury time of this game would rank pretty close to the top of the list of things not to do. Credit though to James, he had played a decent game up to that point.

I didn't see Euro2000, but I've heard enough stories about the final to know that France can never be counted out of a game. Didn't they trail Italy 0-1 until injury time, score in injury time, and then win the tournament on a golden goal in overtime? I kept thinking that they only needed half a chance.

This is going to be a real test for England to recover from this result. This is a heart-wrenching loss. Hopefully they can get back on track and win the next two. Focus on the way they played in the first 90 minutes.

Finally, pay-per-view isn't all it's cracked up to be. My cable company had a "problem" this morning with the first game, and I never saw it (doesn't sound like I missed much). I better be getting a credit when the bill comes.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by atatange1

How is Real player's Euro Pass working for everyone? I didn't think I would get it but for $15 i figured why not. Its has been one pain in the ass so far. For me atleast.

So far I'm fairly underwhelmed. Haven't been able to get any of the daily news things to work, continually get sent to the screen where I have to log in, and the webcast stalls alot.

On the plus side are the historic highlights, which are pretty impressive. Seeing Panenka's penalty that won the 1976 final for Czechoslovakia v Germany was worth the $15 alone for me.

And isn't it sad that there are millions of poor Englishmen crying into their lukewarm beer as we speak.....

[Critch]

Dola........

Actually, the 10 minute highlight package for each game is quite good, if you get it working ok.

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by Critch

Dola........

Actually, the 10 minute highlight package for each game is quite good, if you get it working ok.

I see you are having the same problems I am. I continually get stuck in a loop of having to log in, then when I go to click on the highlight, it tells me I am not logged in, and sends me to the login screen again Also, sometimes when I try to log in, RealPlayer tells me there is an error, and shuts down. Then I have to re-install the program to get it to work again. So far, I'm not happy at all. I would actually be happier if it didn't work at all, I've spent a lot of time trying to get it right and it is pissing me off.

[Sharpieman]

ESPN actually showed the highlights of the game. Great save by Barthez. England relies on Beckham to do everything, someone else should have taken the penalty.

[Desnudo]

I was excited because I have Zidane in my fantasy pool, but after the match I really felt for the England side. Especially since the announcers (Sir Bobby Robson as analyst? Or was that someone else?) were so deflated. Up until Zidane's first goal they had been so excited about England beating France I felt like I was watching the movie Victory. As a lifelong Red Sox fan, I know the feeling of having the rug yanked from under you.

This match definitely made the entire PPV worth it.

[Mac Howard]

I shouldn't really post - I'm feeling so gutted (just watched my taped recording of the England/France game about 30 minutes ago) that I'm not in charge of what I say. That was the cruelest finish to a game I can ever remember (I have some feeling now for the Bayern fans in 1999).

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey

But, that's what happens when you decide to defend a one goal lead for half the match - a silly mistake, a bad refereeing decision (Silvestre should have been off!), one piece of skill from an opposition player etc - and it's gone.

Grumble, grumble, grumble ..............

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

I shouldn't really post - I'm feeling so gutted (just watched my taped recording of the England/France game about 30 minutes ago) that I'm not in charge of what I say. That was the cruelest finish to a game I can ever remember (I have some feeling now for the Bayern fans in 1999).

That's one of three games it reminded me off.
The other two were the 2002 Dutch cup final (Ajax equalised in the last minute of injury time on an offside goal and scored the golden goal 3 minutes into extra time) and the 2002 WC qualifier Portugal-Netherlands, where Portugal came back from 0-2 down with the 1-2 with about 5 mins left and a penalty kick from Figo in injury time to tie the score and decrease our team's odd of qualifying.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group B.
Scores:
Switzerland 0-0 Croatia
France 2-1 England

Standings:
1. France 3 pt (2-1)
2. Croatia 1 pt (0-0)
3. Switzerland 1 pt (0-0)
4. England 0 pt (1-2)
Croatia hold tiebreakers over Switzerland based on WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifying results.

Next up:
England-Switzerland
England will be knocked-out if they lose.
England need to win to stay in contention, especially since they could see a scenario with France already qualified and giving away 3 points to the Swiss.
England should know that two victories in the remaining games are mean a ticket into the quarterfinals.
Switzerland need to win to get past Croatia, however, they could face an already qualified France and with a draw agianst England, they'd be through with a win over France's reserves.
The Swiss will miss another key player with Johan Vogel's suspension over a red card.
MIJ scenario: 2-0 England
Switzerland is even weak then I expected and England have something to correct. 2-0 might even be a little low, yet this is the early evening game, when the heat is a bigger factor.

Croatia-France
Croatia have a clear mission now, beat England and they have a shot at reaching the last eight,but only if they avoid losing to France.
For Croatia losing isn't lethal, yet it does mean that Switzerland will play the French reserves and that could make the Croatia-England game irrelevant.
France have as simple a goal as: win and advance to the last eight.
Even if France lose, a victory over the Swiss will help them to the last eight.
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
With both teams more focussed on not losing then winning, this could be a defensive game. The French won't underestimate Croatia's striker Dado Prso. Somehow I expect that the French will be a little bit exhausted and the relative weak Croatians take advantage to score a late equalizer.

[MIJB#19]

Tie-breakers rules in the group stages in case of same number of points:

1. number of points in head-to-head matches
2. goal difference in head-to-head matches
3. goals scored in head-to-head matches
4. goal difference in all games
5. goals scored in all games
6. better results in qualifying rounds for Euro2004 and WC2002

For the last tie-breakers, here are the orders per group:
Group A
1. Portugal
2. Spain
3. Russia
4. Greece

Group B
1. France
2. England
3. Coratia
4. Switzerland

Group C
1. Sweden
2. Italy
3. Denmark
4. Bulgaria

Group D
1. Czech Republic
2. Germany
3. Netherlands
4. Latvia

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey

Couldn't agree more. Useless Red Shites. You pull the Roone (a solid Everton lad) for Heskey and it all goes to shit. Not too surprising...

[Marc Vaughan]

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey

Heskey coming on was what changed the match for England - while Rooney was on he held the ball up and eased pressure on the defense/setup counter attacks ... once Heskey was on the pitch we were under constant pressure.

(not going to post any more for a bit - need to ease my blood pressure )

[MIJB#19]

Four games, seven goals.
2 penalty kicks, 1 free kick, 1 headed in free kick, 1 headed in corner kick.
That's five out of seven goals scored from standard situations.

I really hope this isn't a tone set for the complete tournament.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Four games, seven goals.
2 penalty kicks, 1 free kick, 1 headed in free kick, 1 headed in corner kick.
That's five out of seven goals scored from standard situations.

I really hope this isn't a tone set for the complete tournament.

I reckon, you're right, because if it ever comes down to penalties... You're f*cked.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Four games, seven goals.
2 penalty kicks, 1 free kick, 1 headed in free kick, 1 headed in corner kick.
That's five out of seven goals scored from standard situations.

I really hope this isn't a tone set for the complete tournament.

Heh...and Buffon and Kahn haven't even played yet...ouch...

CR

[Mac Howard]

The first round matches are always like this. Everyone's afraid of losing because that brings so much pressure on the last two games. I think (hope) we'll see more exciting stuff in the subsequent matches.

If the England lads feel anything like me - cheated and angry - then see them take it out on the Swiss - unless Swedish stoicism takes the passion out of their play

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

The first round matches are always like this. Everyone's afraid of losing because that brings so much pressure on the last two games. I think (hope) we'll see more exciting stuff in the subsequent matches

Having watched almost all the games of the last 3 world cup tournament and last 2 european championships, this is not the experience I have from seeing the first round of matches in group play.
I do remember that the first few games have less goals (barring Germany's 8-0 over Saudi Arabia two years ago), but they weren't decided on "dead ball" situations.

I know, it's what the "experts" have been proclaiming for the last three years that top football would become more like a game of winning terrain and 75% of the goals scored from penalty kicks, free kicks and corner kicks.
It's just not my cup'o'football.

[Mac Howard]

Yes, I was referring to the number of goals not the manner of them.

I guess as coaching in the game becomes more sophisticated then there may be a shift towards set piece goals simply because you can rehearse and perfect these in training while creativity is stiffled by improved defensive play. Hope not

[Coder]

Ok.. time to stop mourning about what's happened and start biting your nails for Sweden! Swedish stoicism? We'll see.. I just have this eerie feeling I'll be disappointed tonight .

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Heskey coming on was what changed the match for England - while Rooney was on he held the ball up and eased pressure on the defense/setup counter attacks ... once Heskey was on the pitch we were under constant pressure.

(not going to post any more for a bit - need to ease my blood pressure )

Exactly. We weren't playing much football in the second half, but what threat we had was coming from Rooney. Sven's obssession with Heskey is getting downright silly - it's a good thing he didn't join Chelsea or we'd probably have to put up with him at club level too.

[Mac Howard]

>I just have this eerie feeling I'll be disappointed tonight

If the Swedish lads feel the same way then they're a goal down already.

They'll beat Bulgaria (that's scuppered them with my prediction record )

[MIJB#19]

Rooney was important to pressure the French defence, but wasn't he exhausted by the 75th minute? I didn't like his physical attitude, he was asking for a yellow card with his behaviour.
A bigger problem is how the English midfield couldn't reach Owen at all. Or should that be credited to the French defenders?

[Coder]

Thanks Mac.. I feel much better now!

Unfortunately it seems as if we'll start with our usual lawnmower crew in midfield rather than Anderlecht's Wilhelmsson and AC Rennes' Kim Källström we'll start Mikael Nilsson on the right wing and Anders Svensson as the attacking midfielder.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Liverpool players! I've shot 'em! Heskey gives away a totally unnecessary freekick, Gerrard plays the best through ball France had all night and Owen was a complete nonentity. No wonder they struggled to make the CL qualifiers. I'll bet it was Houllier who advised Eriksson to replace Rooney with Heskey

Hey now, Liverpool got rid of Heskey ... can't blame us for him anymore!

Owen is nothing w/out getting some solid service ... but Gerrard - what the heck happened? He's played exceedingly well all year with a new found maturity and then he gifts France at the worst possible moment. Ugh.

Benitez might want to keep his options open.

[Alf]

Thank you England. You did play a good conservative football with great counter-attacks, but Zidane is a real killer.

England has really dominated this game but Barthez saving Beckham penalty kick was the turn of the game. Then Zidane came ... and scored twice in extra-time !

The bad thing is that if we finish 1st, we are going to face Portugal who is likely to finish 2nd of their group now.

[scooter]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Rooney was important to pressure the French defence, but wasn't he exhausted by the 75th minute? I didn't like his physical attitude, he was asking for a yellow card with his behaviour.
A bigger problem is how the English midfield couldn't reach Owen at all. Or should that be credited to the French defenders?

I think Rooney's behavior was a major reason he was brought off. He had gotten into a couple scuffles with French d-men. I could see that France was getting frustrated and they were trying to bait him. At first he seemed to be reacting to it. But after about 5 minutes, he seemed to settle down and play with maturity. I wonder if Sven had gotten Heskey warmed up at those first signs of retaliation, and then just decided to bring in some fresh legs to help defend. Rooney continues to impress me every time I see him play.

Owen really needs those magic thru-balls and over-the-top passes to take advantage of his speed. Unfortunately, that isn't a mystery to anyone anymore. France's defense was taking that avenue away from England. I saw a number of times where England's midfield tried to get him the ball with his back to goal, and he just got knocked off the ball. you could see the frustration in his face when he came off. Vassell was a nice swap though. He added a little spark there and bloodied Barthez' nose with that knuckle ball shot.

[Desnudo]

It seems like everyone in the world but the people who matter, know that Heskey is pants. Something about him, a little keystone cops in him, makes me laugh a little anytime I see him run on the field.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by scooter

Owen really needs those magic thru-balls and over-the-top passes to take advantage of his speed. Unfortunately, that isn't a mystery to anyone anymore. France's defense was taking that avenue away from England. I saw a number of times where England's midfield tried to get him the ball with his back to goal, and he just got knocked off the ball. you could see the frustration in his face when he came off. Vassell was a nice swap though. He added a little spark there and bloodied Barthez' nose with that knuckle ball shot.

Hmmm, that reminds me.
When Owen played together with Shearer, didn't Owen play around Shearer, like Rooney plays around Owen?

[3ric]

Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
... \o/ \o/ \o/

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson, Henrik Larsson is the King of Kings...
... \o/ \o/ \o/

Fast Forward:
"And that is the final whistle! What an exciting comeback, Bulgaria wins 4-3. we suspect somebody out there jinxed the Swedish team."

[3ric]

Bite me. Zlatan just upped the score to 4-0.

[Coder]

5-0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coder]

Dola.. I'm still in amazed... I felt like we were losing the game.. 1-0 didn't feel deserved after 45 minutes, but with Nilsson going down on defense and Wilhelmsson coming in on the right midfield slot really we really got things going.

Larsson's 2-0 is an amazing goal.. how can a 4 foot dwarf get that diving header?!???! 3-0 one minute later, also by Larsson.. then Zlatan with the penalty kick and Allbäck with that great shot in the 90th... I'm still in chock.. what a second half!!