Bill Cosby ruffles some feathers.

[Ben E Lou]

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0504/21cosby.html

Cosby stuns crowd with politically incorrect speech

Washington Post
Published on: 05/21/04


WASHINGTON — Bill Cosby was anything but politically correct in his remarks at a Constitution Hall bash commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown vs. Board of Education decision. To astonishment, laughter and applause, Cosby mocked everything from urban fashion to black spending and speaking habits.

"Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal," he declared Monday night. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids — $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' ...

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"They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English," he exclaimed. "I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. ... You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"

Cosby also turned his wrath to "the incarcerated," saying: "These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, (saying) 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"

When Cosby finally concluded, Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert, NAACP President Kweisi Mfume and NAACP legal defense fund head Theodore Shaw came to the podium looking stone-faced. Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African-American, and many of the problems his organization has addressed in the black community were not self-inflicted.

[cthomer5000]

I can understand his point of view.

[Warhammer]

I find it funny, I work at a plant where we have several blacks that work out in the warehouse. Occasionally we get phone calls for some of these workers. Most of the time it is a bunch of mumbling until you can pick out a name that you can pass the phone too.

One time this guy calls, and I can not make out a word of what he was saying. I ask him three times who he is calling for and can not understand him. Finally, he starts cursing and says, "You're going to make me talk English? IS TONY THERE?" Plain as day, opened my eyes a bit too.

[sachmo71]

Good for him.

[Huckleberry]

Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African-American...

I should certainly hope not. African-Americans are only 13% of the US population (12.9 including mixed race people in the 2000 census).

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

African-Americans are only 13% of the US population (12.9 including mixed race people in the 2000 census).

I've seen that statistic many times before, yet it is still difficult for me to fathom, having lived in Georgia all my life, which is almost 30% black. There's actually a good sidebar discussion about integration that we could have based on those stats. I'll bring that one up when I get back in town and have time to participate.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I've seen that statistic many times before, yet it is still difficult for me to fathom, having lived in Georgia all my life, which is almost 30% black.

Idaho and Montana even the numbers out.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by cartman

Idaho and Montana even the numbers out.

Not really. Without looking, I'd venture to guess that there are as many black people in Metro Atlanta alone as there are white people in either of those states.

[Tekneek]

Wow. Bill Cosby has always seemed like an individual, though, who does not consider himself a part of any group or classification. Those things cut both ways, though. It is less about race, IMHO, and more about how a lot of people in this country don't have their priorities in order and would prefer to blame others for their troubles.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Not really. Without looking, I'd venture to guess that there are as many black people in Metro Atlanta alone as there are white people in either of those states.

And there's about as many left-handed lesbian Eskimos in Atlanta as there are..... oh never mind!

[Noop]

I don't understand that? Why should black people conform to speak english? Is it because is it the so called civilized? Tis the human condition of the member of the have-nots...

[Easy Mac]

there's a difference between conformity and speaking the official language of the country. Why should I have to learn how to play football just so I can join the Carolina Panthers team?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

there's a difference between conformity and speaking the official language of the country. Why should I have to learn how to play football just so I can join the Carolina Panthers team?

Technically, we have no offiical language.

[Noop]

Easy that seems like to different things to me. One is sports the other is your life... what I am say is because I say Wuz Up instead of How do you do... I am not educated? I just find it odd and interesting that speaking proper english is considered civilized.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Noop

I don't understand that? Why should black people conform to speak english? Is it because is it the so called civilized? Tis the human condition of the member of the have-nots...

All people are free to speak any way they please. However refusing to speak proper english will certainly limit your choices and opportunities in life. When you walk into a job interview you will be judged on everything about you. They will take into account how you look, how you speak, how you write etc. In corporate america the guy in the suit who is speaking proper english is goign to get the job far more often than the guy in a t-shirt and jeans who isn't speaking proper english. Regardless of race.

So I believe black people and all people should feel free to talk however they like. However the reality of the world is by choosing not to speak "properly" you might be closing doors on opportunities and you never want to limit your choices in life.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Noop

Easy that seems like to different things to me. One is sports the other is your life... what I am say is because I say Wuz Up instead of How do you do... I am not educated? I just find it odd and interesting that speaking proper english is considered civilized.

I think it's a matter of working within the system you are a part of. If people want to speak slang/street, they shouldn't be surprised when they are judged for doing so.

[Easy Mac]

actually, one is sports, the other is words. If I wanted to play football all my life, then I guess it would be my life. But I still don't want to learn the rules and how to play... I just want to play.

And seeing as how you spend at least 12 years being educated in proper english, I am that you would consider it an affront when people expect you to use the language.

[cthomer5000]

we posted at the same time, but I think primelord made my point a little more eloquently.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by primelord

All people are free to speak any way they please. However refusing to speak proper english will certainly limit your choices and opportunities in life. When you walk into a job interview you will be judged on everything about you. They will take into account how you look, how you speak, how you write etc. In corporate america the guy in the suit who is speaking proper english is goign to get the job far more often than the guy in a t-shirt and jeans who isn't speaking proper english. Regardless of race.

So I believe black people and all people should feel free to talk however they like. However the reality of the world is by choosing not to speak "properly" you might be closing doors on opportunities and you never want to limit your choices in life.

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired? I would dress the part because it is required as a dresscode but to change how i speak around my boss or coworkers just seems odd. And you speak about the reality of the world, if one does not chose to speak so called properly they won't get far. Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I've seen that statistic many times before, yet it is still difficult for me to fathom, having lived in Georgia all my life, which is almost 30% black. There's actually a good sidebar discussion about integration that we could have based on those stats. I'll bring that one up when I get back in town and have time to participate.

The East Coast is quite unique when it comes to African American population. I did a project for work a couple of years ago and the distributino was surprising to us. The Highest concentrations are in Baltimore and Washington, DC and Atlanta. California is below the national average with only 8% of LA and 9% of the Bay Area. Other large cities that drive the average down are Boston, Phoenix, Seattle, Minneapolis, San Diego and Denver.

Todd

[Easy Mac]

well, there's not much you can say when a person has a chip on their shoulder... carry on with your plight big man. Meanwhile, me and my boyz a be workin.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Noop

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired? I would dress the part because it is required as a dresscode but to change how i speak around my boss or coworkers just seems odd. And you speak about the reality of the world, if one does not chose to speak so called properly they won't get far. Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.

Or, they just think someone speaking like that will lose them a lot of potential clients.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Noop

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired?

You're not going to be well qualified for many jobs if you cannot effectively communicate with clients, coworkers, etc. I worked for a company based out of Montreal for a few years and accepted the fact that certain promotions were going to be out of my reach because I couldn't speak French fluently. It's a part of life...

[John Galt]

All of this is "part of life" and necessary for client interaction, but it also attests to the fact that language is not "neutral." It is only because "proper" English is practiced by the largely white majority that other forms of English are held in lower regard. And it is also a regional effect (ie a Southern accent can cut both ways depending where you are living). While it is easy to say that you should learn "proper" English if you want to succeed, I think it is also important that those of us who use "proper" English recognize that those who use other forms of the language are no less qualified or intelligent.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Or, they just think someone speaking like that will lose them a lot of potential clients.

How so? If I am a lawyer I would defend my client the very same way some who is equal to me but instead choses to speak proper english. Another point you will lose potential clients by not hiring the best people no matter what... Business is all about profit because if you not in it for profit you need a new career.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Noop

Thats my point. If I am well qualified for a job shouldn't I be hired? I would dress the part because it is required as a dresscode but to change how i speak around my boss or coworkers just seems odd. And you speak about the reality of the world, if one does not chose to speak so called properly they won't get far. Now if I am not mistaken one of the goals of slavery(I hate to bring up) was to atleast make you accept whatever it was master told you and don't try to do your own thing even though you may do it as good as the next guy. In my opinion hearing slang scares them because they could be speaking coded language.

I don't disagree with you that if you are qualified for the job that you should be hired. Along the same lines I think that if someone is qualified for a job that doesn't really rely on their writing skills and they have a few grammar mistakes on their resume that shouldn't always be held against them either. Again the reality of the situation is that it's going to be held against them.

You said that you will dress the part because it is required, but how is that any different. I would assume that if you were working in an environment that required a suit and tie that you wouldn't also be wearing that in your free time. I know I don't. Does the way I dress affect how well I perform in my job? Absolutely not. I have no interactions with customers so it really has no bearing at all on my job performance. However there is an exepected level of dress in my office and that is just the way it is.

Again if you feel that strongly about speaking a certain way then it is certainly your right to continue doing so. However it will absolutely close doors for you in the future. They may not be opportunities you were interested in anyway, and that doesn't mean at all that you can't or won't be successful in life. But I will say again you always want to give yourself as many choices as possible in life. And whether or not it is fair or right, by not speaking proper english it will limit your opportunities.

Edit: I missed an ' in it's and I didn't want Quik's head to explode.

[Cuckoo]

I disagree John. While it certainly does not indicate substandard intelligence, improper use of the "proper" English language will often times signify a less qualified person if the job, as a great many do, require effective communication with coworkers, clients, etc. as VPI pointed out. Seems to me that the fact that the majority utilizes "proper" English is precisely the reason that qualification can be determined by its use.

[Warhammer]

Funny you mention that statistic SkyDog, I have lived in Memphis, TN for the last 20 yrs. and Memphis is roughly 60% black. I used to travel a lot for work a few years back, and found myself in Tulsa. Something just seemed odd about the town and I could not put my finger on it. Then it dawned on me, everyone there was white...

It seemed odd...

[kserra]

Ever heard a teenager girl talk? Like, um, well, yeah, like, well, um...

The point is, once we grow up, go into the "real" world of no more summer vacations, bills to pay, and work to be done, we have to cast aside the slang of our youth for the language of our profession.

I no longer can drop a "dude" or "rad" or "wicked" into my conversation at work...

Fair or not, you are being judged all the time...people that dress well and speak well are going to make a more positive impression than those who do not...it does not mean they are necessarily better people, but we often only have a few moments to make that impression...we don't have the time to sit down and get to know the "real person" behind the facade...

besides, white teens now speak slang that has much in common with black teens slang, and they too will be judged based on their language skills as they mature and grow up...

tru dat...

Kevin

[The Afoci]

Noop, the problem is that you are limiting yourself to those who communicate in the same way and there is just far more that speak 'normal' english. It would be like hiring someone who only speaks spanish to work the drive thru at a McDonalds because they are good at it.

That isn't to say that a business that was focused towards that type of language wouldn't work, because it probably would. The music stores in Fargo are a completely different set of people, pierced, tattooed druggies, but they are highly successful.

[wig]

I love Bill Cosby now.

[RendeR]

awe shit, now I agree with WIG? wtf is the world coming to?

[Warhammer]

Effective communication skills is essential in today's workforce. Someone could develop Hyperspace Travel today, but unless he can effectively communicate his discovery to others, his breakthrough will not see the light of day.

Effective communication can be done in a variety of ways. Speaking and writing are the two most frequently used methods of communication in the workplace today. If you cannot use either form to communicate in a way that your co-workers, clients, or vendors can understand, then you will not be very succesful.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I disagree John. While it certainly does not indicate substandard intelligence, improper use of the "proper" English language will often times signify a less qualified person if the job, as a great many do, require effective communication with coworkers, clients, etc. as VPI pointed out. Seems to me that the fact that the majority utilizes "proper" English is precisely the reason that qualification can be determined by its use.

I never denied that not using "proper" English has an effect in the "real world." My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy. I'm not saying that you should ignore the "real world" effects just that we should also fight the prejudice created by believing that "proper" English is the only way to speak.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Effective communication skills is essential in today's workforce.

They is essential?

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I never denied that not using "proper" English has an effect in the "real world." My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy. I'm not saying that you should ignore the "real world" effects just that we should also fight the prejudice created by believing that "proper" English is the only way to speak.

Okay, I think you made your point more clearly that time. To me, it seemed like before, while you were admitting the "real world" effects, you said that it should not be used to determine qualification. My point was that it should be used to determine qualification. I do agree though, that the "qualification" is based on a type of discrimination, although I would classify it as one of the more innocuous of prejudicial forms.

[Warhammer]

Good catches primelord? :P

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I do agree though, that the "qualification" is based on a type of discrimination, although I would classify it as one of the more innocuous of prejudicial forms.

Agreed. As long as speaking "proper" English is in the best interests of companies trying to maximize profit, those who don't speak it will be "discriminated" against.

[Fidatelo]

I just have one thing to say to Mr. Cosby....

What the problem is?!?

[Ben E Lou]

From the time I was very young, my parents made it very clear that it was fine to talk "black" around the kids in the neighborhood, etc., but in order to be successful we needed "learn how to talk around white folks." (That was exactly how they put it.) That seems so simple to me.

A funny anecdote: a few months after I started on Young Life staff, my brother called me at the office one day. When I got off the phone, I noticed a co-worker looking at me with a puzzled look. I asked what was up, and I could tell he was a little uncomfortable, but finally he just said, "I had no idea you could talk black!" I busted out laughing when I realized that when on the phone with family, I just naturally moved from one "language" to the other without even knowing it.

Shortly after we started dating, my wife commented on the same thing about me. Even funnier to her is that when she is the only white person present, everyone in my family talks very "black", but when we're in majority white settings, we'll all use standard English. She commented that she figured it would be the case but it was still very "different" for her to hear my brothers and sister speaking erudite standard English after hearing, "Ben, why you ain't called me in like two months? You be too busy to talk to yo' own sistah?" for example. The final moment in her "education" in this area was a couple of months ago. She used to be a branch manager for a large bank. The V.P. who hired her was black, and often worked out of an office in the branch that she managed. (As is so happens, he grew up in the same home town as I did and was friends with my older siblings...) One Sunday recently, we visited the church that he attends, so we were in a virtually all-black environment. It was a quite a surprise for her to her to hear an MBA-Bank-VP-dot-every-I-cross-every-T guy like him speaking as "black" as her often-uneducated birth mothers that she works with now.

[kserra]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I never denied that not using "proper" English has an effect in the "real world." My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy. I'm not saying that you should ignore the "real world" effects just that we should also fight the prejudice created by believing that "proper" English is the only way to speak.

man, this is a slippery slope...

so when my students tell me that the way I grade their papers is prejudice against teen slang (age discrimination) they are right?

The English language is spoken by whites, blacks, and every shade in between...to think that "proper" English is a "white" thing is insulting...so what about some African nations where English is either the primary or secondary language spoken (and often in old English form)???

People always speak differently in different company...with my buddies, I still sound like a college guy...with my grandparents, I sound like an old man...at my work, I try to sound like a professional...

Kevin

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by John Galt

My point is that the reason it has an effect is based on a form of prejudice. Not hiring someone because clients/coworkers/customers feel uncomfortable communicating with someone who speaks with a Southern/Hispanic/Ebonic/Northern/French/East African/Asian accent supports a form of discrimination by proxy.

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't agree with it.

Let's say a trial in Kingston features a Jamaican lawyer arguing his point against a Scottish lawyer...Assuming that they are equally skilled in their craft, it's not a reach to say that the Jamaican lawyer will have a easier time in communicating his point to the jury. Is that because Jamaicans are prejudiced against people with Scottish accents?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Okay, I think you made your point more clearly that time. To me, it seemed like before, while you were admitting the "real world" effects, you said that it should not be used to determine qualification. My point was that it should be used to determine qualification. I do agree though, that the "qualification" is based on a type of discrimination, although I would classify it as one of the more innocuous of prejudicial forms.

I would disagree that it is innocuous. Especially for Americans who speak Spanish this has been a contentious and often litigated issue. Many companies started passing "English only" rules that made English the only allowable language to be spoken in the workplace. While this made sense in a few isolated cases (like in a hospital emergency room), it was being adopted in places where there was no legitimate argument. The result was often 100's of Hispanic Americans being fired from jobs (while their White counterparts who may use a "foreign" word were allowed to stay). Language norms because race norms and it created environments hostile to non-white Americans.

I think there are a lot of other cases as well where language is used as a proxy for race (see the Ebonics controversy). Ultimately, we can't deny the importance of clear communication, but I think Americans really need to realize that language/accent discrimination (rationalized as necessary for business) often cloaks race discrimination.

And notice the house of cards effect. Company A says it needs "proper English" speakers so it can interact with Companies B, C, and D. Companies B, C, and D say they need "proper English" speakers so they can interact with Companies A, E, F, and G. The cycle continues because "proper English" is the privileged form.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by VPI97

I see what you're trying to say, but I don't agree with it.

Let's say a trial in Kingston features a Jamaican lawyer arguing his point against a Scottish lawyer...Assuming that they are equally skilled in their craft, it's not a reach to say that the Jamaican lawyer will have a easier time in communicating his point to the jury. Is that because Jamaicans are prejudiced against people with Scottish accents?

Yes, I would say it is a form of prejudice. That is a form we all naturally have. My only point is that we should try to fight that natural prejudice toward the familiar and learn to accept a wide varieties of English.

[wig]

People act like a little discrimination is a bad thing.

[Celeval]

Personally, my opinion of a potential hire falls dramatically with grammatical errors on his/her resume. To me, it shows a lack of attention (or a lack of caring about) detail, which is important in nearly EVERY career path.

[Warhammer]

John,

While I understand your position, I think it is flawed. When you speak to a customer or a vendor at work, do you use expletives? When you go to the store and ask to speak to a customer service representative, do you want someone who speaks the "King's" English, or someone that speaks colloquially?

In 10 years of work in sales, I have spoken to people around the world. Let me tell you, it is very difficult to speak to people from other parts of the world. There are different accents on the words, different tones of voice, and even different sentence structure. It is very difficult to talk these people (not a bad thing, it just takes a lot of work to listen to them). Which is funny because the other people from the office would say, "It's a foreigner, let's give it to John." They didn't want to deal with it.

When looking for a job, selling a product, talking to a friend, and giving a speech, you must tailor your message to the crowd you are talking to. This has nothing to do with prejudice or discrimination, it is about effectively communicating with your audience. If you make it easier for them to listen, it is easier to get your message across and leave them with something to think about.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by kserra

man, this is a slippery slope...

so when my students tell me that the way I grade their papers is prejudice against teen slang (age discrimination) they are right?

The English language is spoken by whites, blacks, and every shade in between...to think that "proper" English is a "white" thing is insulting...so what about some African nations where English is either the primary or secondary language spoken (and often in old English form)???

People always speak differently in different company...with my buddies, I still sound like a college guy...with my grandparents, I sound like an old man...at my work, I try to sound like a professional...

Kevin

Whoa there. No one said "proper English" shouldn't be taught. I think creating language uniformity is VERY important. My issue is that language unifromity doesn't exist and until it does we can't ignore the real world effects of language discrimination.

As for the "insulting" point by me. I NEVER said that only whites speak "proper English." My point was that as long as whites are the majority (especially in the business world) and they predominantly use "proper English," it will be the preferred and privileged form in our society. Note however that within various subcultures create different preferred forms (ie the rap world doesn't prefer "proper English").

And I won't even point out that the slippery slope is a fallacy.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by John Galt

The cycle continues because "proper English" is the privileged form.

Excuse me, but that is a great big steaming pile of pure bullshit. My father grew up in utter poverty, and my mother wasn't well-off, either. They grew up in the South as poor black folks in the 20's and 30's. No one anywhere can ever make any claim that there was anything "privileged" about my parents. Somehow, they learned to use this "privileged form," though, and made dadgum sure that their children learned to use it as well.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Yes, I would say it is a form of prejudice. That is a form we all naturally have. My only point is that we should try to fight that natural prejudice toward the familiar and learn to accept a wide varieties of English.

Agree to disagree, I guess. My definition of prejudice would include phrases like "irrational conclusions" and "unreasonable judgements". I don't see how a natural preference to be able to smoothly communicate with another human being falls under irrational or unreasonable.