Does it bother anyone that...

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 03:24 PM

...if I submit a gameplan for a game with 100% runs, the opposing coach will not adjust and put 9 or 10 men in the box to stop the run? They will just consistently get pounded for 4 yards a carry. To me it's just unrealistic, I mean in the NFL if a team came out and ran the ball every single time, the opposing coach would adjust and stop it very quickly.

Football is a game of adjustments. The chess match is one of the greatest aspects of the sport. But has it been lost in FOF?

albionmoonlight · 11-19-2003, 03:29 PM

It may be that the AI can adjust, but not to values so extreme that they would never occur IRL.

VPI97 · 11-19-2003, 03:29 PM

Is it realistic for the opponent to know what gameplan you're going to run when he gameplans for the matchup? Because that's what it sounds like you want to happen.

I'd say it's more realistic that if you run 100% of the time, the computer adjusts during the game and your run attack become less effective. ...and based on what I've read, I believe that 's what happens now.

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 03:34 PM

Well what I mean is, if you go to an NFL game and through three quarters Team A has ran the ball 53 times and thrown it 0 times, wouldn't Team B's defense pretty much stuff the run for no gain or minus yards every time?

I haven't found that the cpu adjusts to 100% run gameplans during games, either. I did it for an entire season and went 10-6. That wouldn't happen IRL.

cthomer5000 · 11-19-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SCJenkins81
Well what I mean is, if you go to an NFL game and through three quarters Team A has ran the ball 53 times and thrown it 0 times, wouldn't Team B's defense pretty much stuff the run for no gain or minus yards every time?

I haven't found that the cpu adjusts to 100% run gameplans during games, either. I did it for an entire season and went 10-6. That wouldn't happen IRL.

Try it for a few more seasons, I'll be shocked if you make the playoffs again.

It seems the Ravens are trying your gameplan in real life though.

JAG · 11-19-2003, 03:37 PM

It depends. If you've run it 53 times and thrown it 0 times, but you keep putting two wide receivers split wide, what are you going to do, not cover them? Then maybe you'd throw an easy TD to one. Sure, they'll cheat more towards the run, no question.

You're correct, you wouldn't go 10-6 in real life with a gameplan like this, but would you see a gameplan with 100% runs in real life either?

henry296 · 11-19-2003, 03:40 PM

At the end of the game, everyone knows that Team A is almost certain to run the ball, but Team A sometimes is still successful at yet. It may not be 100% certainty but at least 75% in the last 2 minutes.

Todd

TroyF · 11-19-2003, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SCJenkins81
Well what I mean is, if you go to an NFL game and through three quarters Team A has ran the ball 53 times and thrown it 0 times, wouldn't Team B's defense pretty much stuff the run for no gain or minus yards every time?

I haven't found that the cpu adjusts to 100% run gameplans during games, either. I did it for an entire season and went 10-6. That wouldn't happen IRL.

If you decide to play the game in an unrealistic fashion, you are going to get unrealistic results.

You say "that wouldn't happen IRL" to going 10-6 while running the ball 100% of the time. You are right. It also goes the other way. The AI isn't Godlike. It isn't going to be able to stand up to every extreme gameplan you throw at it.

TroyF

Easy Mac · 11-19-2003, 03:54 PM

Here is what I got with 100% run

Code:

Front Office Football 2004
2003 Summary for Dallas Cowboys
   
Record: 0-16
Winning Pct.: .000
   
Dallas Cowboys          Team      Rank  
Rushes                  818       1           
Rushing Yards           2925      1           
Yards Per Carry         3.57      31          
Pass Attempts           59        32          
Completions             26        32          
Passing Yards           369       32          
Yards Per Attempt       6.25      28          
3rd Down Conversions    30.7      32          
Points Per Game         8.4       32          
Turnovers               8         1           
Turnover Margin         +21       1           
   
Opponents               Team      Rank  
Rushes                  462       21          
Rushing Yards           1776      12          
Yards Per Carry         3.84      7           
Pass Attempts           480       3           
Completions             324       13          
Passing Yards           3595      11          
Yards Per Attempt       7.48      24          
3rd Down Conversions    43.7      29          
Points Per Game         21.0      15 (T)      
Turnovers               29        12 (T)      
   
Week  Team  Versus        Oppnt  
1     10    ATL           17      
2     13    at NYK        28      
4     6     at NJY        10      
5     13    ARI           14      
6     13    PHI           21      
7     13    at DET        27      
8     3     at TBY        31      
9     6     WAS           10      
10    14    BUF           21      
11    0     at NED        10      
12    6     CAR           10      
13    6     MIA           27      
14    7     at PHI        24      
15    15    at WAS        21      
16    3     NYK           34      
17    7     at NOS        31      
   
Passing             Pos   Att   Comp  Yards Y/Att TD    Int  
17 Carter           QB    59    26    369   6.25  2     3       
**Team              ---   59    26    369   6.25  2     3       
   
Rushing             Pos   Att   Yards Y/Att TD  
22 Shapiro          RB    376   1221  3.24  3       
42 Hambrick         RB    277   997   3.59  1       
20 Anderson         FB    117   562   4.80  1       
**Team              ---   818   2925  3.57  5

Sidhe · 11-19-2003, 03:57 PM

Yeah I thought there was code to prevent this from happening. When you call a play too often, don't you see a "the defense looked awfully familiar with that play" tag?

Edit: Well here's your problem:

Quote:

Passing Pos Att Comp Yards Y/Att TD Int
17 Carter QB 59 26 369 6.25 2 3
**Team --- 59 26 369 6.25 2 3

If you hadn't had those 59 pass attempts, clearly you woulda gone 10-6!

RPI-Fan · 11-19-2003, 03:57 PM

FTR, the word from Jim on this is that the AI can adjust pretty well to fairly extreme (maybe 85-90%) plans, but it's a problem to code for the AI to correct for punks who try to do anything and everything within or not within the realm of possiblity to beat the engine.

~rpi-fan

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 05:42 PM

Here is where I'm going with this. Stay with me now! Say I am in a multiplayer league. There is a guy in the league who is in first place and all he has is 3 gameplans. Gameplan A, which is 100% runs, Gameplan B, which is 50-50 run/pass, and Gameplan C, which is 100% pass. How do you gameplan against a guy like that? If you try and guess with him, there is only a 33% chance that you will guess right. This means that the other 67% of the time, you will guess wrong and he will probably win. And as we all know, a .667 winning % is not bad.

Now, this guy is doing what it takes to win. It may not be realistic, but if a league is set up, the goal is to win the league. I'm one of those competitive types where, as long as it is within the rules of the league, do what you can do to win. That's the goal. And even if you set up a rule for the league that says "try to stay realistic", you just know there will be people in the league who will bend the rules just enough so that they will win. And in most cases, that is why the decent hearted people in the league will lose. And what kind of a league is that?? Rewarding people for bending rules?? This is why I just wish it would be built in to the game. In-game adjustments, they're a big part of football but they seem to have been forgotten. The ole chess match. I love that. As far as Easy Mac's league, I don't know how you finished 0-16, I hope that is the norm; and it would make me feel better. But it could be because you have Dallas' subpar o-line and backs. The league I went 10-6 in, I had Ahman Green and a very good o-line. But even with Ahman and a great o-line, nobody would go 10-6 running the ball every down of their season.

I don't know, maybe I'm just a perfectionist. Maybe I'll never be satisfied. I just was wishing for in-game adjustments because I know there will be people who submit unrealistic-enough gameplans to rip off the multi-player leagues.

Chubby · 11-19-2003, 05:46 PM

SC - Easy, gameplan your D against the 50/50. Just because someone runs every play or passes every play doesn't mean they will always get 1st downs or tds.

panerd · 11-19-2003, 05:53 PM

I remember playing a Tecmo Super Bowl season once with the Bears and having Neal Anderson run about 98% of the time. I think I led the league in rushing by about 2000 yards. The sad part is that my friend was in the league with me and during head-to-head matchups wouldn't ever pick the right run. (Plus Anderson was at one of those Hulk stages where his ratings were all close to 100) He ended getting injured at the end of the season and I had to start counting on some scrub like Wendall Davis.

Easy Mac · 11-19-2003, 05:57 PM

This is what happens when I set the Rams to 100% pass:

Code:


Front Office Football 2004
2003 Summary for St. Louis Rams
   
Record: 4-12
Winning Pct.: .250
   
St. Louis Rams          Team      Rank  
Rushes                  36        32          
Rushing Yards           131       32          
Yards Per Carry         3.63      25 (T)      
Pass Attempts           908       1           
Completions             511       1           
Passing Yards           6173      1           
Yards Per Attempt       6.79      18          
3rd Down Conversions    32.5      28          
Points Per Game         20.3      18 (T)      
Turnovers               45        31          
Turnover Margin         -20       30          
   
Opponents               Team      Rank  
Rushes                  530       32          
Rushing Yards           2021      31          
Yards Per Carry         3.81      8 (T)       
Pass Attempts           568       21          
Completions             364       29          
Passing Yards           4331      31          
Yards Per Attempt       7.62      31          
3rd Down Conversions    42.5      32          
Points Per Game         28.7      32          
Turnovers               25        18 (T)      
   
Week  Team  Versus        Oppnt  
1     17    at NYK        37      
2     10    SFO           13      
3     7     at SEA        54      
4     42    ARI           34      
6     21    ATL           24      
7     20    GBY           30      
8     14    at PIT        28      
9     13    at SFO        20      
10    28    BAL           40      
11    31    at CHI        37      
12    23    at ARI        10      
13    34    MIN           31      
14    14    at CLE        30      
15    21    SEA           19      
16    14    CIN           27      
17    17    at DET        26      
   
Passing             Pos   Att   Comp  Yards Y/Att TD    Int  
13 Warner           QB    706   393   4714  6.67  28    27      
10 Bulger           QB    188   113   1411  7.50  11    7       
**Team              ---   908   511   6173  6.79  39    36      
   
Rushing             Pos   Att   Yards Y/Att TD  
**Team              ---   36    131   3.63  1       
   
Receiving           Pos   Targ  Catch Yards Y/Ctc YAC   TD  
81 Holt             WR    225   128   1844  14.4  392   11      
80 Bruce            WR    193   102   1596  15.6  335   9       
28 Faulk            RB    146   97    808   8.3   335   4       
84 MdDonald         WR    117   61    740   12.1  55    8       
87 Cleeland         TE    107   59    476   8.0   55    4       
82 Furrey           WR    80    39    586   15.0  92    1       
**Team              ---   907   511   6173  12.0  1305  39

Easy Mac · 11-19-2003, 06:01 PM

Here is my redo of the running 100% with a good running team, the Steelers (Bettis is great in the game):

Code:


Front Office Football 2004
2003 Summary for Pittsburgh Steelers
   
Record: 3-12-1
Winning Pct.: .218
   
Pittsburgh Steelers     Team      Rank  
Rushes                  895       1           
Rushing Yards           3452      1           
Yards Per Carry         3.85      24          
Pass Attempts           54        32          
Completions             32        32          
Passing Yards           498       32          
Yards Per Attempt       9.22      1           
3rd Down Conversions    40.9      16          
Points Per Game         13.1      32          
Turnovers               15        1 (T)       
Turnover Margin         +3        11 (T)      
   
Opponents               Team      Rank  
Rushes                  424       11 (T)      
Rushing Yards           1738      14          
Yards Per Carry         4.09      15          
Pass Attempts           502       5           
Completions             329       18          
Passing Yards           3710      17          
Yards Per Attempt       7.39      26 (T)      
3rd Down Conversions    39.4      12          
Points Per Game         19.6      9           
Turnovers               18        32          
   
Week  Team  Versus        Oppnt  
1     10    BAL           15      
2     3     at KCY        27      
3     31    at CIN        34      
4     10    TEN           31      
5     13    CLE           0       
6     13    at DEN        23      
8     14    STL           17      
9     9     at SEA        33      
10    3     ARI           10      
11    6     at SFO        10      
12    19    at CLE        9       
13    17    CIN           17      
14    18    OAK           21      
15    0     at NJY        27      
16    24    SDO           17      
17    20    at BAL        24      
   
Passing             Pos   Att   Comp  Yards Y/Att TD    Int  
8 Maddox            QB    52    31    495   9.51  4     3       
**Team              ---   54    32    498   9.22  4     3       
   
Rushing             Pos   Att   Yards Y/Att TD  
36 Bettis           RB    793   3081  3.88  12      
8 Maddox            QB    43    130   3.02  1       
21 Zereoue          RB    36    176   4.88  1       
**Team              ---   895   3452  3.85  14      
   
Receiving           Pos   Targ  Catch Yards Y/Ctc YAC   TD  
**Team              ---   52    32    498   15.5  34    4

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 06:02 PM

Hey now, some scrub like Wendell Davis was a stud WR at LSU! And if it weren't for a freak knee injury, he would have been mentioned in the same breath as Tim Brown and Sterling Sharpe. Seriously he was one of the greats pre-injury.

Chubby, see I don't know if that would work. I would think that a team with 100% runs or pases would beat a 50-50 defense most of the time. But that example I just came up with in 5 seconds. Imagine what someone hellbent on winning could come up with when they have 5 weeks to think up something.

I'm just worried that in multiplayer leagues people will abuse the fact that there are no in-game adjustments.

Easy Mac · 11-19-2003, 06:05 PM

and now a tewam at exactly 50, that is about average in both passing and running, the Bills:

Code:


Front Office Football 2004
2003 Summary for Buffalo Bills
   
Record: 12-4
Winning Pct.: .750
   
Buffalo Bills           Team      Rank  
Rushes                  532       1           
Rushing Yards           2344      1           
Yards Per Carry         4.40      5           
Pass Attempts           423       32          
Completions             260       32          
Passing Yards           3173      30          
Yards Per Attempt       7.50      8           
3rd Down Conversions    38.1      17          
Points Per Game         21.2      15          
Turnovers               21        7 (T)       
Turnover Margin         +3        14 (T)      
   
Opponents               Team      Rank  
Rushes                  442       15          
Rushing Yards           1536      6           
Yards Per Carry         3.47      2           
Pass Attempts           528       12 (T)      
Completions             312       9 (T)       
Passing Yards           3288      6           
Yards Per Attempt       6.22      4           
3rd Down Conversions    38.1      12 (T)      
Points Per Game         16.5      2           
Turnovers               24        22 (T)      
   
Week  Team  Versus        Oppnt  
1     16    NED           20      
2     34    at JAX        6       
3     16    at MIA        9       
4     24    PHI           5       
5     29    CIN           27      
6     10    at NJY        31      
7     30    WAS           9       
8     22    at KCY        20      
10    16    at DAL        9       
11    24    HOU           10      
12    29    IND           21      
13    9     at NYK        22      
14    14    NJY           13      
15    17    at TEN        23      
16    30    MIA           27      
17    20    at NED        13      
   
Passing             Pos   Att   Comp  Yards Y/Att TD    Int  
11 Bledsoe          QB    409   254   3067  7.49  22    9       
**Team              ---   423   260   3173  7.50  24    9       
   
Rushing             Pos   Att   Yards Y/Att TD  
20 Henry            RB    367   1606  4.37  5       
31 Morris           RB    76    334   4.39  0       
**Team              ---   532   2344  4.40  9       
   
Receiving           Pos   Targ  Catch Yards Y/Ctc YAC   TD  
84 Campbell         TE    90    62    622   10.0  159   7       
80 Moulds           WR    103   61    999   16.3  227   10      
20 Henry            RB    75    50    465   9.3   244   1       
81 Shaw             WR    65    37    540   14.5  71    4       
**Team              ---   423   260   3173  12.2  788   24

Easy Mac · 11-19-2003, 06:05 PM

So it seems that playing 50/50 on offense gives you a higher chanceo f winning that doing straight 100%.

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 06:06 PM

Ok you guys are starting to make me feel a little bit better. 100% runs and passes pretty much only gave y'all a 7-24-1 record. I guess my 10-6 was in fact a freak thing. I'm gonna try it again when I get the chance.

So maybe in-game adjustments are there. Any takers?

TroyF · 11-19-2003, 06:08 PM

SC,

A ton of problems with your worry.

Lets say a person does use three game planes. 100% run, 100% pass, 50/50.

You CANNOT assume that he'll be able to do all three with the same type of success. If he has a good O-Line, no QB, below average wide outs and a great RB, how well do you think the 100% pass option is going to work?

Before giving that explanation, I also need to know how solid my defense is. Do I have a great D-Line? Can I get pressure without blizting? Are my LB's good run stuffers? My CB's? How well do my guys diagnose plays?

You have one season where your team ran the ball 100% and went 10-6. Another person here just posted an 0-16 effort. We still do not know how the strategy would hold up long term against the computer AI. Against a human AI, my guess is you'd be murdered.

TroyF

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 06:09 PM

Another thing. Are there game logs that we could look at in multiplayer leagues? Like if I'm about to play the Rams and I notice that they throw it every single time on 1st down, and I could scheme my defense to look for the pass on 1st down.

That's the thing I like about football simulations. The game of adjustments and scheming.

Easy Mac · 11-19-2003, 06:10 PM

Yeah, chances are your commish would download Fido's soon to be released sweet util that turns logs into html. Then they could just post it to the website.

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 06:13 PM

Easy Mac, you and friends have officially re-sold me on FOF2K4. And as it happens, that 10-6 all run season was flawed from the start: Turns out that I had the "Coaches re-do gameplan after every game" option turned on. What an idiot I am. Now that I've done some re-simulating here in the last few minutes, I'm getting 0-16 records coming out of my ears. This is great.

Let the chess matches begin!

sabotai · 11-19-2003, 08:08 PM

The is one other crazy thing that just might work to stop extreme gameplans. The commish could just not allow extreme game plans to be submitted. The league could come up with some standard rules (so no more then 75% run in this situation or less than 15% in this situation)

It'll take leg work, sure, but a good quality multiplayer league takes leg work.

SCJenkins81 · 11-19-2003, 10:13 PM

I was hoping that FOF2k4 would sort of do the "leg work" for you as far as extreme gameplans are concerned. And it seems they have. It looks like extreme gameplans might not work the way I was worried they would work.

Suicane75 · 11-19-2003, 10:27 PM

Isn't Wendell Davis the dude who blew out both his knees on the same play on the Veterans Stadium turf? I remeber going to the vet in 1983 for picture day and it was so crowded that you really couldn't see in front of you, I was on the field a good 20 steps before I realized I was on the field, I thought we were still on the concrete stepping, It freaked me out that people actually played on that.

sabotai · 11-20-2003, 03:26 PM

I remember walking on the turf at Veterans Stadium too. I couldn't beleive people played on it either.

Maple Leafs · 11-20-2003, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SCJenkins81
Well what I mean is, if you go to an NFL game and through three quarters Team A has ran the ball 53 times and thrown it 0 times, wouldn't Team B's defense pretty much stuff the run for no gain or minus yards every time?

Didn't the Raiders start off with something like 21 straight runs a game or two ago?

Huckleberry · 11-20-2003, 04:18 PM

In-game adjustments are a part of football now?

Wow. You certainly haven't been watching enough Texas Longhorns football games.

Subby · 11-20-2003, 04:22 PM

Extreme game plans are the kind of things that a human opponet will absolutely crush. It might work in one extreme (say running) for a week or two - but if you try and swing to the complete opposite extreme (say, passing) it is really doubtful that you will have the personnel to do both in an on-line league.

Besides - if you keep running the same plays in FOF5, you get the old, "the defense seemed very familiar with that play" line.

Bonegavel · 11-20-2003, 04:48 PM

hehe... I just simmed a season with 100% running and I have 2 backs over 1500 yards.

Oh, I went 1 - 15.

Funniest thing to me is that every player was shown to be content the entire season (1 or 2 disgruntled at most). Explains that performance has zero to do with attitude, but rather simply the fact that they are playing. Interesting, yet expected.

Went 4-12 the second 100% Rushing season and only 2 guys over 1000, the top RB coming in 2nd in the league with 1421.

Bonegavel · 11-20-2003, 04:50 PM

I don't see 100% gameplans being used for anything but self abuse.

MJ4H · 11-20-2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Huckleberry
In-game adjustments are a part of football now?

Wow. You certainly haven't been watching enough Texas Longhorns football games.

zing.

Rhone Ranger · 11-20-2003, 04:59 PM

I think what SCJenkins81 is asking for is something like this:

Your team's defense should stick precisely to your game plan in the 1st quarter. But as the game goes along, the game plan should slowly change to match the proportion of run/pass actually executed by the opposing offense. This would be a weighted thing, with the weight given to the original game plan decreasing as the game progresses.

For example (keeping this really simple) let's say that the weight of the original game plan should be 100% on the first snap, decreasing to 60% by the end of the game. Your defensive game plan is initially 50/50 run/pass, but you play a wacky offense that runs the ball 100% of the time.

In the 1st quarter, your defense sticks to the original plan of 50/50 run/pass because the "weight" of the game plan is 100%.

By the end of the game, the original game plan's "weight" is only 60%, with the other 40% mirroring the opponent's actual play calling so far in the game. So, late in this example game, your defense would call plays as:

Original Game Plan: 50/50 run/pass, weight=60%
Opponent's actual calls: 100/0 run/pass, weight=40%

So late in the game your defense would call a run defense 70% of the time. (50% run defense weighted 60%, plus 100% run defense weighted 40%).

Of course it would have to be more complicated that this in the real game, because you can't simply look at the opponent's offense in terms of just run/pass. The opponent might have run the ball a lot because he found himself in a lot of short yardage situations. So you wouldn't want your game plan to adapt to this "pattern" when the opponent is in a long yardage situation. So likely the algorithm would have to track the run/pass breakdown in all the various combinations of down and yards-to-go, much like the game plans are organized. And only apply this "adaptive" weighting if a statistically significant number of plays have been called at that particular combination of down and yards-to-go.

It would be neat if you could set the maximum "weight" you want this adaptation to receive by late in the game. In my example I used 40%, but you could set it to anything you want, including zero which would indicate that you want to stick entirely to your original defensive plan and not be "adaptive" at all.

In a nutshell, it would be as if your AI coach is trying to reverse-engineer the opponent's offensive game plan by observing the opponent's playcalling, and then weights this information into his own defensive gameplan as the game progresses.

11-19-2003, 03:29 PM	#3
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	Is it realistic for the opponent to know what gameplan you're going to run when he gameplans for the matchup? Because that's what it sounds like you want to happen. I'd say it's more realistic that if you run 100% of the time, the computer adjusts during the game and your run attack become less effective. ...and based on what I've read, I believe that 's what happens now. __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining"

11-19-2003, 03:40 PM	#7
henry296 College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Pittsburgh, PA	At the end of the game, everyone knows that Team A is almost certain to run the ball, but Team A sometimes is still successful at yet. It may not be 100% certainty but at least 75% in the last 2 minutes. Todd __________________ "It's a great day for hockey" - "Badger" Bob Johnson

11-19-2003, 03:57 PM	#11
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	FTR, the word from Jim on this is that the AI can adjust pretty well to fairly extreme (maybe 85-90%) plans, but it's a problem to code for the AI to correct for punks who try to do anything and everything within or not within the realm of possiblity to beat the engine. ~rpi-fan __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

11-20-2003, 04:18 PM	#30
Huckleberry College Starter Join Date: Dec 2001	In-game adjustments are a part of football now? Wow. You certainly haven't been watching enough Texas Longhorns football games. __________________ The one thing all your failed relationships have in common is you. The Barking Carnival (Longhorn-centered sports blog) College Football Adjusted Stats and Ratings

11-20-2003, 04:22 PM	#31
Subby lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: sans pants	Extreme game plans are the kind of things that a human opponet will absolutely crush. It might work in one extreme (say running) for a week or two - but if you try and swing to the complete opposite extreme (say, passing) it is really doubtful that you will have the personnel to do both in an on-line league. Besides - if you keep running the same plays in FOF5, you get the old, "the defense seemed very familiar with that play" line. __________________ Superman was flying around and saw Wonder Woman getting a tan in the nude on her balcony. Superman said I going to hit that real fast. So he flys down toward Wonder Woman to hit it and their is a loud scream. The Invincible Man scream what just hit me in the ass!!!!! I do shit, I take pictures, I write about it: chrisshue.com

11-19-2003, 03:29 PM	#2
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	It may be that the AI can adjust, but not to values so extreme that they would never occur IRL.

11-19-2003, 03:34 PM	#4
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	Well what I mean is, if you go to an NFL game and through three quarters Team A has ran the ball 53 times and thrown it 0 times, wouldn't Team B's defense pretty much stuff the run for no gain or minus yards every time? I haven't found that the cpu adjusts to 100% run gameplans during games, either. I did it for an entire season and went 10-6. That wouldn't happen IRL.

11-19-2003, 05:42 PM	#12
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	Here is where I'm going with this. Stay with me now! Say I am in a multiplayer league. There is a guy in the league who is in first place and all he has is 3 gameplans. Gameplan A, which is 100% runs, Gameplan B, which is 50-50 run/pass, and Gameplan C, which is 100% pass. How do you gameplan against a guy like that? If you try and guess with him, there is only a 33% chance that you will guess right. This means that the other 67% of the time, you will guess wrong and he will probably win. And as we all know, a .667 winning % is not bad. Now, this guy is doing what it takes to win. It may not be realistic, but if a league is set up, the goal is to win the league. I'm one of those competitive types where, as long as it is within the rules of the league, do what you can do to win. That's the goal. And even if you set up a rule for the league that says "try to stay realistic", you just know there will be people in the league who will bend the rules just enough so that they will win. And in most cases, that is why the decent hearted people in the league will lose. And what kind of a league is that?? Rewarding people for bending rules?? This is why I just wish it would be built in to the game. In-game adjustments, they're a big part of football but they seem to have been forgotten. The ole chess match. I love that. As far as Easy Mac's league, I don't know how you finished 0-16, I hope that is the norm; and it would make me feel better. But it could be because you have Dallas' subpar o-line and backs. The league I went 10-6 in, I had Ahman Green and a very good o-line. But even with Ahman and a great o-line, nobody would go 10-6 running the ball every down of their season. I don't know, maybe I'm just a perfectionist. Maybe I'll never be satisfied. I just was wishing for in-game adjustments because I know there will be people who submit unrealistic-enough gameplans to rip off the multi-player leagues.

11-19-2003, 05:46 PM	#13
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	SC - Easy, gameplan your D against the 50/50. Just because someone runs every play or passes every play doesn't mean they will always get 1st downs or tds.

11-19-2003, 05:53 PM	#14
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	I remember playing a Tecmo Super Bowl season once with the Bears and having Neal Anderson run about 98% of the time. I think I led the league in rushing by about 2000 yards. The sad part is that my friend was in the league with me and during head-to-head matchups wouldn't ever pick the right run. (Plus Anderson was at one of those Hulk stages where his ratings were all close to 100) He ended getting injured at the end of the season and I had to start counting on some scrub like Wendall Davis.

11-19-2003, 06:02 PM	#17
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	Hey now, some scrub like Wendell Davis was a stud WR at LSU! And if it weren't for a freak knee injury, he would have been mentioned in the same breath as Tim Brown and Sterling Sharpe. Seriously he was one of the greats pre-injury. Chubby, see I don't know if that would work. I would think that a team with 100% runs or pases would beat a 50-50 defense most of the time. But that example I just came up with in 5 seconds. Imagine what someone hellbent on winning could come up with when they have 5 weeks to think up something. I'm just worried that in multiplayer leagues people will abuse the fact that there are no in-game adjustments.

11-19-2003, 06:05 PM	#19
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	So it seems that playing 50/50 on offense gives you a higher chanceo f winning that doing straight 100%.

11-19-2003, 06:06 PM	#20
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	Ok you guys are starting to make me feel a little bit better. 100% runs and passes pretty much only gave y'all a 7-24-1 record. I guess my 10-6 was in fact a freak thing. I'm gonna try it again when I get the chance. So maybe in-game adjustments are there. Any takers?

11-19-2003, 06:08 PM	#21
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	SC, A ton of problems with your worry. Lets say a person does use three game planes. 100% run, 100% pass, 50/50. You CANNOT assume that he'll be able to do all three with the same type of success. If he has a good O-Line, no QB, below average wide outs and a great RB, how well do you think the 100% pass option is going to work? Before giving that explanation, I also need to know how solid my defense is. Do I have a great D-Line? Can I get pressure without blizting? Are my LB's good run stuffers? My CB's? How well do my guys diagnose plays? You have one season where your team ran the ball 100% and went 10-6. Another person here just posted an 0-16 effort. We still do not know how the strategy would hold up long term against the computer AI. Against a human AI, my guess is you'd be murdered. TroyF

11-19-2003, 06:09 PM	#22
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	Another thing. Are there game logs that we could look at in multiplayer leagues? Like if I'm about to play the Rams and I notice that they throw it every single time on 1st down, and I could scheme my defense to look for the pass on 1st down. That's the thing I like about football simulations. The game of adjustments and scheming.

11-19-2003, 06:10 PM	#23
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	Yeah, chances are your commish would download Fido's soon to be released sweet util that turns logs into html. Then they could just post it to the website.

11-19-2003, 06:13 PM	#24
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	Easy Mac, you and friends have officially re-sold me on FOF2K4. And as it happens, that 10-6 all run season was flawed from the start: Turns out that I had the "Coaches re-do gameplan after every game" option turned on. What an idiot I am. Now that I've done some re-simulating here in the last few minutes, I'm getting 0-16 records coming out of my ears. This is great. Let the chess matches begin!

11-19-2003, 08:08 PM	#25
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	The is one other crazy thing that just might work to stop extreme gameplans. The commish could just not allow extreme game plans to be submitted. The league could come up with some standard rules (so no more then 75% run in this situation or less than 15% in this situation) It'll take leg work, sure, but a good quality multiplayer league takes leg work.

11-19-2003, 10:13 PM	#26
SCJenkins81 n00b Join Date: Oct 2003	I was hoping that FOF2k4 would sort of do the "leg work" for you as far as extreme gameplans are concerned. And it seems they have. It looks like extreme gameplans might not work the way I was worried they would work.

11-19-2003, 10:27 PM	#27
Suicane75 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NJ	Isn't Wendell Davis the dude who blew out both his knees on the same play on the Veterans Stadium turf? I remeber going to the vet in 1983 for picture day and it was so crowded that you really couldn't see in front of you, I was on the field a good 20 steps before I realized I was on the field, I thought we were still on the concrete stepping, It freaked me out that people actually played on that.

11-20-2003, 03:26 PM	#28
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	I remember walking on the turf at Veterans Stadium too. I couldn't beleive people played on it either.

11-20-2003, 04:48 PM	#32
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	hehe... I just simmed a season with 100% running and I have 2 backs over 1500 yards. Oh, I went 1 - 15. Funniest thing to me is that every player was shown to be content the entire season (1 or 2 disgruntled at most). Explains that performance has zero to do with attitude, but rather simply the fact that they are playing. Interesting, yet expected. Went 4-12 the second 100% Rushing season and only 2 guys over 1000, the top RB coming in 2nd in the league with 1421. __________________ Last edited by Bonegavel : 11-20-2003 at 04:48 PM.

11-20-2003, 04:50 PM	#33
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	I don't see 100% gameplans being used for anything but self abuse. __________________

11-20-2003, 04:59 PM	#35
Rhone Ranger n00b Join Date: Nov 2003	I think what SCJenkins81 is asking for is something like this: Your team's defense should stick precisely to your game plan in the 1st quarter. But as the game goes along, the game plan should slowly change to match the proportion of run/pass actually executed by the opposing offense. This would be a weighted thing, with the weight given to the original game plan decreasing as the game progresses. For example (keeping this really simple) let's say that the weight of the original game plan should be 100% on the first snap, decreasing to 60% by the end of the game. Your defensive game plan is initially 50/50 run/pass, but you play a wacky offense that runs the ball 100% of the time. In the 1st quarter, your defense sticks to the original plan of 50/50 run/pass because the "weight" of the game plan is 100%. By the end of the game, the original game plan's "weight" is only 60%, with the other 40% mirroring the opponent's actual play calling so far in the game. So, late in this example game, your defense would call plays as: Original Game Plan: 50/50 run/pass, weight=60% Opponent's actual calls: 100/0 run/pass, weight=40% So late in the game your defense would call a run defense 70% of the time. (50% run defense weighted 60%, plus 100% run defense weighted 40%). Of course it would have to be more complicated that this in the real game, because you can't simply look at the opponent's offense in terms of just run/pass. The opponent might have run the ball a lot because he found himself in a lot of short yardage situations. So you wouldn't want your game plan to adapt to this "pattern" when the opponent is in a long yardage situation. So likely the algorithm would have to track the run/pass breakdown in all the various combinations of down and yards-to-go, much like the game plans are organized. And only apply this "adaptive" weighting if a statistically significant number of plays have been called at that particular combination of down and yards-to-go. It would be neat if you could set the maximum "weight" you want this adaptation to receive by late in the game. In my example I used 40%, but you could set it to anything you want, including zero which would indicate that you want to stick entirely to your original defensive plan and not be "adaptive" at all. In a nutshell, it would be as if your AI coach is trying to reverse-engineer the opponent's offensive game plan by observing the opponent's playcalling, and then weights this information into his own defensive gameplan as the game progresses.

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