On topic: FOF and TCY question on defensive personnel

Vegas Vic · 10-19-2003, 03:59 PM

I'm trying to emulate a Mike Stoops/Brent Venables type of defensive scheme in FOF and TCY, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the personnel assignments.

The base defense is a 4-2-5, reverting to a standard 4-3 in more likely running situations. There's not much choice as far as the settings -- I set nickel to "99", and hope that gets me there with enough frequency (although probably not enough). The cornerstone of this type of defense is the hybrid strong safety/linebacker, popularized by the legendary Roy Williams. I want him at strong safety in the 4-3, and I want him at the "hybrid back" position in the 4-2-5. I've come to the conclusion that this can be probably be done in FOF, but it's not possible in TCY. In FOF, I would set the hybrid as the starting SS, and also list him as the nickel cornerback. Hopefully, he would move to nickel corner in the 4-2-5 (with SS#2 moving to SS).

Question: Does anyone know if this dual setting will work?

Second question: Does the nickel back take the place of the SLB?

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 04:26 AM

Bump.

Heaven forbid an "on topic" post would get a response, but how about it, guys?

Ben E Lou · 10-22-2003, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vegas Vic
I'm trying to emulate a Mike Stoops/Brent Venables type of defensive scheme in FOF and TCY, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the personnel assignments.

The base defense is a 4-2-5, reverting to a standard 4-3 in more likely running situations. There's not much choice as far as the settings -- I set nickel to "99", and hope that gets me there with enough frequency (although probably not enough). The cornerstone of this type of defense is the hybrid strong safety/linebacker, popularized by the legendary Roy Williams. I want him at strong safety in the 4-3, and I want him at the "hybrid back" position in the 4-2-5. I've come to the conclusion that this can be probably be done in FOF, but it's not possible in TCY. In FOF, I would set the hybrid as the starting SS, and also list him as the nickel cornerback. Hopefully, he would move to nickel corner in the 4-2-5 (with SS#2 moving to SS).

Question: Does anyone know if this dual setting will work?

Second question: Does the nickel back take the place of the SLB?

I'm pretty sure if you list him at nickel corner then he'll be on the field, but I'm not sure how often and which LB he replaces.

Buzzbee · 10-22-2003, 06:51 AM

Vic - In our Kitty Hawk Group Think Dynasty we posed a similar question. Our Defensive coordinator (albionmoonlight) set our blitz percentages very high for the WLB. We noticed that our nicelback was getting an unusually high number of sacks.

I ran a test. I set the blitz percentage to 100%. I then specified the WLB as the only one to blitz. I then called each and every defensive play, calling for a nickel package everytime.

What I found was that the WLB is pulled for the nickelback. Also, the nickelback assumes the blitz percentages of the WLB. I did this in a 4-3, and also in a 3-4. We were hoping the WILB would be pulled in the 3-4, but alas, it is always the WLB.

I don't know about TCY.

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 07:18 AM

Thanks for the info.

This could be the opposite of the way it is handled in real-life. Using Oklahoma as an example (before injuries), they were running a base 4-2-5, with Lance Mitchell and Teddy Lehman as the two linebackers. In their 4-3 (used primarily on short yardage situations), Pasha Jackson would line up at SLB. I believe the philosophy of most teams is to put your quickest and best pass defending OLB at WLB (Lehman), and your best run-defending OLB at SLB (Jackson). The SLB is then pulled in the nickel package.

As you mentioned, it appears as if FOF yanks the WLB in the nickel.

Dutch · 10-22-2003, 08:45 AM

You would think it was the SLB that would be pulled. A nickel package obviously tries to counter a passing play. A lot of times the TE is either slotted or pulled in favor of another WR, and the SLB would be the guy that would have to cover that slotted TE or new WR...and Madden pulls the SLB.

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 01:07 PM

Dutch, you're correct. In Madden, the SLB is pulled in the nickel, and the WLB is pulled in the dime.

cthomer5000 · 10-22-2003, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vegas Vic
Dutch, you're correct. In Madden, the SLB is pulled in the nickel, and the WLB is pulled in the dime.

Sounds like we have a suggestion for Jim then. Either allow us to set the nickel lineup, or at least determine which LB comes off the field.

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 01:17 PM

Corey,

I'd love to see the same type of screens for defensive personnel that we have for offensive formations in FOF4. This would allow us to set up specific position assignments in base, nickel and dime packages. For those that don't want to micromanage, there would be default settings.

I agree. This is a good suggestion for Jim.

dixieflatline · 10-22-2003, 01:17 PM

Well I think it really depends on the defense. The teams that prefer man to man choose their SLB because he can cover the TE so he is going to stay on the field when they move to nickel. Also, the WLB generally blitzes more often which is useful in nickel but you really need linebackers that can cover RB's and TE's and he might not be your man.

Ideally, there would be a different skin for nickel and dime and you could choose who to play in those sets. The problem is the more sets you add the more complicated things get for the player and the AI.

Back to Vic's question. I am currently playing a year where I have three really strong safeties and weak OLB's so I do a lot of what Buzzbee suggested. Pump up the nickel and put my weak OLB at WOLB. Then my backup safety is also the first backup at CB(making him the nickel back) and at OLB. My backup is a great run stuffer so when he gets into the game at OLB in the 4-3 I consider it like he "walked up" to the line when we were in nickel coverage.

Hope that helps some

HornedFrog Purple · 10-22-2003, 01:24 PM

Run a 5-0, put the outside backers as safeties. I have done it that way and have gotten reasonable numbers.

By the way, Venables attended a coaches seminar on the 4-2-5 run by TCU now head-coach Mr. Patterson. This last off-season 22 Division I-A programs sent coaches to his seminar including Venables. It first made its appearance in Division I-A by the University of New Mexico then coached by Dennis Franchione who brought Patterson from Wichita State.

Just for the record....

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 01:36 PM

Does anyone know if it's possible to keep the key guy on the field at all times? If I list him as the #1 SS and the #3 CB, will he automatically be moved into the LB slot in nickel situations (with SS#2 moving in also)?

HornedFrog Purple · 10-22-2003, 01:50 PM

No I tried that before, #1 SS overrides his #3 CB unfortunately.

dawgfan · 10-22-2003, 01:54 PM

This is interesting stuff, but I have to ask - is there any evidence that Jim's sim engine behaves in a way such that these modifications to the standard defensive settings will actually produce results similar to what the real-life counterparts do? By playing guys out of position to mimic 'non-standard' defensive alignments, does the sim engine unduly penalize the player? Do the advantages that a 4-2-5 alignment provide in reality translate through jiggering the settings in FOF/TCY?

HornedFrog Purple · 10-22-2003, 02:04 PM

That is a good question. With the scheming I use I have finished in the top 10 in total defense for 17 straight years in one dynasty and lead the conference almost every year. I can't really figure out if its because I recruit good players or the scheme.

I will try a weak team in a major conference and see what happens with both conventional and then replay with adjusted scheming. The Sol-8 throws it off because the other teams are evenly pathetic.

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HornedFrog Purple
No I tried that before, #1 SS overrides his #3 CB unfortunately.

That's too bad. I was going to see if I could get a Roy Williams type of player to dominate, with sacks, tackles and interceptions. I need him on the field at all times to accomplish this.

HornedFrog Purple · 10-22-2003, 02:17 PM

I think the best way to tackle this for Jim in his next version (crossing fingers) is to incorporate the rover as one of the outside LB's (probably weak)into a 4-3 with a check box to keep him in for the nickel package. The rover would substitute as the Roy Williams type where his primary responsibility is to follow the ball with no particular assignment. Maybe he could make a patch if we email him.

Vegas Vic · 10-22-2003, 02:22 PM

Good suggestion, HFP.

At present, I guess the best alternative might be to list him at starting SLB in the 4-3, and set the nickel % to zero. Of course, then he would be replaced in the dime package, but that might be a reasonable trade-off.

dixieflatline · 10-22-2003, 03:04 PM

You could also put him at 3rd safety which I think would get him on the field during dime sets since he would be off the field as a LB. I don't know what would happen if one of your starting safeties got injured though.

Excellent suggestion HornedFrogPurple. Maybe there just needs to be a couple of boxes for nickel LB's like there is for 3rd down back on the offense screen.

HornedFrog Purple · 11-04-2003, 01:11 AM

I thought I would bump this... looking at some of the screenshots for FOF 2k4 it looks like the check box option might become available for the next TCY. Maybe we will get our 4-2-5 and rover options after all.

sabotai · 11-04-2003, 02:54 PM

I think the best way to handle this would be to have a Personnel" form for the defensive formations, similar to the offensive formations. That wya we could shoose to put SS#1 in at NB and SS#2 at SS for the Nickel, and set the two LB's we want for the LB positions, etc.

Mark · 11-07-2003, 06:15 AM

Just a thought...need to test it.

In TCY, select 4-3 as the main form and put in the S as the WLB and the #3 CB. This should keep him on the field for base sets as well as for when the team goes to nickel/dime formations. I'll test it tonight and let you know if it works.

Mark · 11-08-2003, 01:19 PM

My theory appears to work.

Running a test Dynasty with Nebraska, I set the base formation to 4-3. I put a safety (Deion Walsh) in as the WLB and as the #3 CB. Here are his stats:

59 tackles (2nd on team)
22 assists (tied for 2nd)
1.5 sacks
7 TFLs
2 ints
353 rplys (most on team)
392 plys (most on team)

Deion is ranked

65/77 (run)
95/100 (man)
55/67 (zone)
90 (ints)
48 endurance

So playing him at WLB in the 4-3 and #3 CB keeps him on the field most (if not all) of the time. It would be interesting to see what type of player generates the best stats in this role.

10-22-2003, 06:51 AM	#4
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	Vic - In our Kitty Hawk Group Think Dynasty we posed a similar question. Our Defensive coordinator (albionmoonlight) set our blitz percentages very high for the WLB. We noticed that our nicelback was getting an unusually high number of sacks. I ran a test. I set the blitz percentage to 100%. I then specified the WLB as the only one to blitz. I then called each and every defensive play, calling for a nickel package everytime. What I found was that the WLB is pulled for the nickelback. Also, the nickelback assumes the blitz percentages of the WLB. I did this in a 4-3, and also in a 3-4. We were hoping the WILB would be pulled in the 3-4, but alas, it is always the WLB. I don't know about TCY. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

10-22-2003, 01:50 PM	#13
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	No I tried that before, #1 SS overrides his #3 CB unfortunately. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

10-22-2003, 02:04 PM	#15
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	That is a good question. With the scheming I use I have finished in the top 10 in total defense for 17 straight years in one dynasty and lead the conference almost every year. I can't really figure out if its because I recruit good players or the scheme. I will try a weak team in a major conference and see what happens with both conventional and then replay with adjusted scheming. The Sol-8 throws it off because the other teams are evenly pathetic. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

10-22-2003, 02:17 PM	#17
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	I think the best way to tackle this for Jim in his next version (crossing fingers) is to incorporate the rover as one of the outside LB's (probably weak)into a 4-3 with a check box to keep him in for the nickel package. The rover would substitute as the Roy Williams type where his primary responsibility is to follow the ball with no particular assignment. Maybe he could make a patch if we email him. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

11-04-2003, 01:11 AM	#20
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	I thought I would bump this... looking at some of the screenshots for FOF 2k4 it looks like the check box option might become available for the next TCY. Maybe we will get our 4-2-5 and rover options after all. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

10-22-2003, 04:26 AM	#2
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Bump. Heaven forbid an "on topic" post would get a response, but how about it, guys?

10-22-2003, 07:18 AM	#5
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Thanks for the info. This could be the opposite of the way it is handled in real-life. Using Oklahoma as an example (before injuries), they were running a base 4-2-5, with Lance Mitchell and Teddy Lehman as the two linebackers. In their 4-3 (used primarily on short yardage situations), Pasha Jackson would line up at SLB. I believe the philosophy of most teams is to put your quickest and best pass defending OLB at WLB (Lehman), and your best run-defending OLB at SLB (Jackson). The SLB is then pulled in the nickel package. As you mentioned, it appears as if FOF yanks the WLB in the nickel.

10-22-2003, 08:45 AM	#6
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	You would think it was the SLB that would be pulled. A nickel package obviously tries to counter a passing play. A lot of times the TE is either slotted or pulled in favor of another WR, and the SLB would be the guy that would have to cover that slotted TE or new WR...and Madden pulls the SLB.

10-22-2003, 01:07 PM	#7
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Dutch, you're correct. In Madden, the SLB is pulled in the nickel, and the WLB is pulled in the dime.

10-22-2003, 01:17 PM	#9
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Corey, I'd love to see the same type of screens for defensive personnel that we have for offensive formations in FOF4. This would allow us to set up specific position assignments in base, nickel and dime packages. For those that don't want to micromanage, there would be default settings. I agree. This is a good suggestion for Jim.

10-22-2003, 01:17 PM	#10
dixieflatline High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2003	Well I think it really depends on the defense. The teams that prefer man to man choose their SLB because he can cover the TE so he is going to stay on the field when they move to nickel. Also, the WLB generally blitzes more often which is useful in nickel but you really need linebackers that can cover RB's and TE's and he might not be your man. Ideally, there would be a different skin for nickel and dime and you could choose who to play in those sets. The problem is the more sets you add the more complicated things get for the player and the AI. Back to Vic's question. I am currently playing a year where I have three really strong safeties and weak OLB's so I do a lot of what Buzzbee suggested. Pump up the nickel and put my weak OLB at WOLB. Then my backup safety is also the first backup at CB(making him the nickel back) and at OLB. My backup is a great run stuffer so when he gets into the game at OLB in the 4-3 I consider it like he "walked up" to the line when we were in nickel coverage. Hope that helps some

10-22-2003, 01:24 PM	#11
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	Run a 5-0, put the outside backers as safeties. I have done it that way and have gotten reasonable numbers. By the way, Venables attended a coaches seminar on the 4-2-5 run by TCU now head-coach Mr. Patterson. This last off-season 22 Division I-A programs sent coaches to his seminar including Venables. It first made its appearance in Division I-A by the University of New Mexico then coached by Dennis Franchione who brought Patterson from Wichita State. Just for the record....

10-22-2003, 01:36 PM	#12
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Does anyone know if it's possible to keep the key guy on the field at all times? If I list him as the #1 SS and the #3 CB, will he automatically be moved into the LB slot in nickel situations (with SS#2 moving in also)?

10-22-2003, 01:54 PM	#14
dawgfan Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Seattle	This is interesting stuff, but I have to ask - is there any evidence that Jim's sim engine behaves in a way such that these modifications to the standard defensive settings will actually produce results similar to what the real-life counterparts do? By playing guys out of position to mimic 'non-standard' defensive alignments, does the sim engine unduly penalize the player? Do the advantages that a 4-2-5 alignment provide in reality translate through jiggering the settings in FOF/TCY?

10-22-2003, 02:22 PM	#18
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	Good suggestion, HFP. At present, I guess the best alternative might be to list him at starting SLB in the 4-3, and set the nickel % to zero. Of course, then he would be replaced in the dime package, but that might be a reasonable trade-off.

10-22-2003, 03:04 PM	#19
dixieflatline High School Varsity Join Date: Sep 2003	You could also put him at 3rd safety which I think would get him on the field during dime sets since he would be off the field as a LB. I don't know what would happen if one of your starting safeties got injured though. Excellent suggestion HornedFrogPurple. Maybe there just needs to be a couple of boxes for nickel LB's like there is for 3rd down back on the offense screen.

11-04-2003, 02:54 PM	#21
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	I think the best way to handle this would be to have a Personnel" form for the defensive formations, similar to the offensive formations. That wya we could shoose to put SS#1 in at NB and SS#2 at SS for the Nickel, and set the two LB's we want for the LB positions, etc.

11-07-2003, 06:15 AM	#22
Mark n00b Join Date: May 2001 Location: NC	Just a thought...need to test it. In TCY, select 4-3 as the main form and put in the S as the WLB and the #3 CB. This should keep him on the field for base sets as well as for when the team goes to nickel/dime formations. I'll test it tonight and let you know if it works.

11-08-2003, 01:19 PM	#23
Mark n00b Join Date: May 2001 Location: NC	My theory appears to work. Running a test Dynasty with Nebraska, I set the base formation to 4-3. I put a safety (Deion Walsh) in as the WLB and as the #3 CB. Here are his stats: 59 tackles (2nd on team) 22 assists (tied for 2nd) 1.5 sacks 7 TFLs 2 ints 353 rplys (most on team) 392 plys (most on team) Deion is ranked 65/77 (run) 95/100 (man) 55/67 (zone) 90 (ints) 48 endurance So playing him at WLB in the 4-3 and #3 CB keeps him on the field most (if not all) of the time. It would be interesting to see what type of player generates the best stats in this role. Last edited by Mark : 11-08-2003 at 01:24 PM.

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