Is .400 done

[44Niners]

I for one am very disappointed with what is going on over at .400 studios.

to recap the last six months they have had:

1. the TDCB debacle
2. the breakup with Markus, who is one of the most respected and talented people in the sim-sports world
3. this latest push back on TPF - which isn't bad on its own, just the reasoning and logic is less then clear or IMO honest


Plus the tone over there is either be a fanboy or be flamed, constructive criticism is being dealt with by locking threads and excuses.

I really want to see .400 studios succeed not only because I enjoy sports-sim games but because I think the more competition the better the products become. I was very excited about TPF until the last few days and now am not so sure they are going to be able to put out a decent product.

Is this just a bump in the road or are they in serious trouble?

[Killebrew]

Take the test Niners!
How to speak more gooder english.

[ScottVib]

The threads that were locked were two threads dealing with the exact same topic as a third thread (the original) that remains open.

Both of those threads had gone down to the point of rehashing many of the same arguments. Both of the threads had gotten to the point where there was name calling back and forth where those posts had to be deleted (and I stand behind the decisions made by our various mods and admins).

We certainly don't mind the debate, but is there any need for 3 threads on the topic and then another thread debating the need to lock the other two?

As far as the reason, it is what it is. You may not like it, you may not believe it, but I can assure you that, that the real reason for the delay is that there simply wasn't enough time to implement the new/improved features in the game and get the tested appropriately. Maybe we're a little gun-shy after the TDCB release, but we decided that caution was the better sense of valor, we know very well that while users may give us one more shot after TDCB, that another bad release would put us in serious trouble, and we're not going to make that mistake again.

The push back happened because we are more focused on putting the best quality game on the market, rather than the first game on the market. We feel the delay will allow us to have a higher quality product, better able to compete within the genre.

A point of clarification on your Timeline... the TDCB release was 10 months ago and the major issues with that game were resolved within the first month after the release.

In the end it will be up to you all to decide whether or not to spend your hard earned cash on TPF, when it's released give it a try, if you like it and decide to buy it great, if not well thanks for at least giving it a shot.

[Buccaneer]

When Scott and I talked this summer, he alluded to the fact that it wouldn't take much for the target release date to slip. This can only be a good thing since it is already in beta testing.

[Dutch]

But they are not delaying it to fix bugs, they are delaying it to add "more stuff". Just doesn't sound very believable to me, especially after TDCB.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Dutch
But they are not delaying it to fix bugs, they are delaying it to add "more stuff". Just doesn't sound very believable to me, especially after TDCB.

FWIW, I can confirm that it wouldn't take much to get the bugs out of the current build to make an October 31st release, but more features need to be added. I'm under an NDA, but I feel certain the boys at 400 wouldn't mind me saying this: Trust me on this one. It was the right decision, and one I encouraged them to make.

[ScottVib]

The Beta and Development Teams were unanimous on the decision to delay the game to ensure that all the new features got in and had a chance to be fully tested.

[Solecismic]

This topic makes me very uncomfortable. One thing all of us text sim developers have in common is that we've put everything into making these games.


The success of one benefits us all, and it seems certain that within the near future, TPF will be a success.

[kcchief19]

Jim hits on an interesting point. I've leveled my fair share of criticism at .400 in the past (I'm probably to .400 what my pal Bucc is to FOF ), but I agree that they put everything they have into their games.

I have no doubt that TPF will be a smashing success. But based on past efforts, the .400 approach to text sims is just not my cup of tea.

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by Killebrew
Take the test Niners!
How to speak more gooder english.

IBM have increased ______ profits by 20%.(This example is correct in British English - ask an American what they would say!)

British English (which I suppose is different from regular English) means using plural tense verbs and adjectives with singular nouns?

[AZSpeechCoach]

For the love of God...fix that poll. The English teacher in me is screaming. It isn't "their." It is "they are," or "they're." Those kinds of mistakes are what drive teachers to early graves.

[QuikSand]

Originally posted by kcchief19
British English (which I suppose is different from regular English) means using plural tense verbs and adjectives with singular nouns?

I think the point is that the British will take a collective noun (one that implicitly refers to a group of inndividual things) and use it as a plural. In Championship Manager, you frequently see references to your team's board this way: "The Board are very pleased with the result" and so on.

[kcchief19]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I think the point is that the British will take a collective noun (one that implicitly refers to a group of inndividual things) and use it as a plural. In Championship Manager, you frequently see references to your team's board this way: "The Board are very pleased with the result" and so on.

I'm really glad we won that war. God Bless America!

[Killebrew]

Originally posted by kcchief19
British English (which I suppose is different from regular English) means using plural tense verbs and adjectives with singular nouns?

Them fancy lad English have a lot to learn when it comes to speaking more better English. I guess we done failed to learn 'em none nothing nohow!

[Glengoyne]

I am pretty sure TDCB was fine six months ago. That is when I purchased it, and I still love it. In my most current career I turned The Citadel into a tournament regular, and brought South Florida to the point that their fans are disapointed if you dont make the sweet 16. I have asked a few times what happened with the TDCB release, and haven't really gotten any responses. By the time I bought the game, it was working fine, and lots of fun.

Regarding the summary of events above..the timeline was incorrect regarding the TDCB release, as was pointed out by Scott. Also you should have mentioned that they brought on Shaun Sullivan, of PureSim fame, and added Total Pro Baseball to their product line. That said...I think we should just accept the party line, and move on for now. It is just easier than fighting it.

[Archer219]

The only .400 game I am looking forward to is TEW (Total Extreme Wrestling). The rest of the games seem to have similar games from more proven developers that gamers will most likely flock to (ie. FOF 2k4 and TPF or Eastside Hockey Manager and Faceoff Hockey). But...

...I am always up for more choice in the text sim department. For all I know TPF might suprise me and be a much better game than FOF 2k4. Won't know until the demos are released (and maybe not even then). So, I hope .400 studios doesn't go under...

...unless they plan on become the Microsoft of sports text sims. Which would be bad.

[GrantDawg]

TCBD was released in December of last year. Six month ago it was (as it is now) a pretty solid product (I haven't played it enough to comment on the "depth" problem some have).

As for the rest, I read the threads in question and what I got from reading them was:

".250 Studios sucks. They will always suck, blah, blah, blah."

"I don't think they suck, they just need time to get everything in the game."

"FANBOY, FANBOY! Anybody who doesn't agree with me is a fanboy."

[andy m]

Originally posted by QuikSand
I think the point is that the British will take a collective noun (one that implicitly refers to a group of inndividual things) and use it as a plural. In Championship Manager, you frequently see references to your team's board this way: "The Board are very pleased with the result" and so on.

indeed. because the board is a bunch of dudes, so the dudes are all collectively pleased with the result. if the board was just one dude, he would be pleased singularly.

[FrogMan]

Originally posted by Killebrew
Take the test Niners!
How to speak more gooder english.

LOL!!! I read this post without reading the poll at all. Didn't understand what it was all about, THEN I read the "their" all over the place!!!

FM

[Fritz]

Due to deflation, I hear the company will be .382 by the end of next week.

[MizzouRah]

What gives you an indication .400 studios is in trouble?

They seem just fine to me.



Todd

[Dutch]

FWIW, I can confirm that it wouldn't take much to get the bugs out of the current build to make an October 31st release, but more features need to be added. I'm under an NDA, but I feel certain the boys at 400 wouldn't mind me saying this: Trust me on this one. It was the right decision, and one I encouraged them to make.

Skydog, I remember beta testers coming out of the woodwork before TDCB saying how stunningly great that game was going to be upon release. And six months after that, they were probably right.

Pretty graphics are nice, but they mean nothing to me. People have been talking up how great TPF is going to be for months and we find out this week that it's delayed because of the lackk of features....so what was all that hype about, exactly? The graphics?

Like I said, I want to be pleasantly surprised, but based on TDCB, I'm not buying anybody's hype.

[44Niners]

Originally posted by GrantDawg


As for the rest, I read the threads in question and what I got from reading them was:

".250 Studios sucks. They will always suck, blah, blah, blah."

"I don't think they suck, they just need time to get everything in the game."

"FANBOY, FANBOY! Anybody who doesn't agree with me is a fanboy."

I'm not saying anything was being solved via the threads, but if the policy was to lock all threads that involved moronic name calling and debate - then there would be about 8 threads unlocked in the entire internet.

I just can’t believe they would lock a thread because it was critical – that is about as bush league as you can get.

I know for me this entire thing have changed me from a purchase on the day of release guy, to a wait and see guy.

[44Niners]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
What gives you an indication .400 studios is in trouble?

They seem just fine to me.



Todd

I can only assume you are being sarcastic.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by Dutch
Skydog, I remember beta testers coming out of the woodwork before TDCB saying how stunningly great that game was going to be upon release. And six months after that, they were probably right.

Pretty graphics are nice, but they mean nothing to me. People have been talking up how great TPF is going to be for months and we find out this week that it's delayed because of the lackk of features....so what was all that hype about, exactly? The graphics?

Like I said, I want to be pleasantly surprised, but based on TDCB, I'm not buying anybody's hype.

1. I wonder if they lost the battle to stop the release. I don't know. I was asked to join the beta team for the patches (before they essentially made the patches an open beta). I don't know for sure what went down before release, but I DO have a feeling that there were those who wanted the release held up but whose voices were not listened to. I don't have much info on this though. I don't know who the original beta testers were.

2. Dutch, you know me. Graphics mean zilch to me. My perceptions of the game have nothing whatsoever to do with graphics. I use the pulldown menus, not the graphical ones.

[cooleyvol]

Originally posted by 44Niners
I can only assume you are being sarcastic.

Dutch,
I get the feeling that nothing is going to satisfy you; you only want people to try to convince you.

One of the FOF elite, SkyDog, is telling you that the game is going to be great and that's not based on graphics. You still are unmoved.

Why not just wait and see? They'll offer a 7 day money back guarantee. What do you have to lose once its out? Nothing.

Now as for your thinking .400 is in 'trouble', it seems ludicrous to me to even think that only b/c they have pushed release back.

As for the locked threads, I have no knowledge, but there were three threads on the same subject. Seems logical to me to do away with two of them.

I understand you're loyal to FOF and Jim, but how about the benefit of the doubt for the next month or so and then judge the game for yourself when it comes out?

Posts like this help no one.

[Subby]

Originally posted by cooleyvol Posts like this help no one.

Not true. I just used this post to loofah my tummy.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by cooleyvol
One of the FOF elite, SkyDog, is telling you that the game is going to be great and that's not based on graphics. You still are unmoved.

Whoa! I hope you read my looking-at-the-girl-from-80-yards-away analogy. I'm sticking to that right now.

[Bonegavel]

To me, if a thread is on-topic then there is no reason to delete/freeze/lock the thread. If 3 posts talk about the same thing, then 3 posts talk about the same thing. Shows that people are interested. If there is an "official word" for the game creators, they can sticky the one they prefer, or create their own stickied post that is the "official" thread on the subject.

Personally, I don't care what they do to their FORUMS, but that is another reason why I don't participate in Official Forums. Too much hanky-panky for my liking. Forums like this have no vested interest in the games we discuss (other than Marc V, Markus, Jim etc) but they participate as opposed to administrate.

Look, I think that we need to "fund" Solecismic and 400studios to keep football text sims alive. I already know I'll buy Jim's game, but regardless of how the basketball thing worked, we need to create some sort of Simfare donations to 400studios for their first few versions. If we don't, they cease being a company, and then we are back to having 1 game to play.

That is my opinion, and like assholes, we all got one. Saying "posts like this help no one" just shows your ties to TPF, IMHO. And, I have nothing agaist you because, come TPF release, I will be visiting your site regularly for resources, info etc. on the game. But, please don't come on heavy in here saying that it helps no one.

That is the beauty of this forum. We can post this sort of thing and not worry about whose feelings we hurt and we can praise or criticise the games we play without fear of them pulling the plug or stop giving us information.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by cooleyvol
Why not just wait and see? They'll offer a 7 day money back guarantee. What do you have to lose once its out? Nothing.

Yeah, like the money back offer in TDCB, but of course the game wasn't finished for months and if you gave them the chance to patch it before making up your mind you were screwed out of your money for supporting them from the release of the product.

[markprior22]

Originally posted by cooleyvol
Dutch,
I get the feeling that nothing is going to satisfy you; you only want people to try to convince you.

One of the FOF elite, SkyDog, is telling you that the game is going to be great and that's not based on graphics. You still are unmoved.

Why not just wait and see? They'll offer a 7 day money back guarantee. What do you have to lose once its out? Nothing.

Now as for your thinking .400 is in 'trouble', it seems ludicrous to me to even think that only b/c they have pushed release back.

As for the locked threads, I have no knowledge, but there were three threads on the same subject. Seems logical to me to do away with two of them.

I understand you're loyal to FOF and Jim, but how about the benefit of the doubt for the next month or so and then judge the game for yourself when it comes out?

Posts like this help no one.

Very well said!

[Dutch]

Dutch,
I get the feeling that nothing is going to satisfy you; you only want people to try to convince you.

Nothing will satisfy me pre-release, and only a well designed game will satisfy me post-release. What's so bad about that?

One of the FOF elite, SkyDog, is telling you that the game is going to be great and that's not based on graphics. You still are unmoved.

I generally trust Skydog's opinion, but I can't ever recall a beta tester saying anything negative about quite a few games that have bombed.

Why not just wait and see? They'll offer a 7 day money back guarantee. What do you have to lose once its out? Nothing.

Nothing? Any success in text based sports sims helps us all (who enjoy this sort of thing). Failure of this title hurts us all, and if Skydog and others didn't convince 400 studios to hold off on release, we already would have had a repeat of TDCB.

Now as for your thinking .400 is in 'trouble', it seems ludicrous to me to even think that only b/c they have pushed release back.

I never said they were in trouble, just that TPF has the same footprint of TDCB. The only difference so far seems to be the FOFC crowd chiming in with some critique.

As for the locked threads, I have no knowledge, but there were three threads on the same subject. Seems logical to me to do away with two of them.

I understand you're loyal to FOF and Jim, but how about the benefit of the doubt for the next month or so and then judge the game for yourself when it comes out?

Posts like this help no one.

Okay, obviously somebody switched gears on me....was this stuff for me?....anyway, as I have always said, I hope I am pleasantly surprised with TPF!

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by Dutch


I never said they were in trouble, just that TPF has the same footprint of TDCB. The only difference so far seems to be the FOFC crowd chiming in with some critique.

I'm sorry, but how exactly is this the "TDCB" footprint? TDCB was released missing functions and large bugs. It was released before it was ready. If .400 listen to you and those screaming now, they would be doing the exact same thing with this game.

Instead, they are holding the game until everything is implemented and it is as stable and bug free as possible. It seems to me they are doing the exact opposite of what they did before, yet people are still complaining!

[KWhit]

I don't think .400's done, but man they had a bad day on Friday, didn't they?

They had already made what had to be a really tough decision to push their release date back and just before they announce it, they hear about FOF2004. Ouch.

They know that FOF will take a bite out of their sales (especially since it will beat TPF to the "shelves"), but they still chose to delay the release because they want to release a solid game.

I hope all goes well for the .400 folks. They seem to be good people who enjoy the same things that all of us do - smart sports simulations.

I don't think you guys should be holding the push back on the release date against them. I'm sure they were a bit gun-shy about releasing a product that they didn't feel 100% secure about since the TDCB issues. Give them the benefit of the doubt and keep an open mind until the game's released and you start to hear the buzz and reviews.

[cooleyvol]

Originally posted by Dutch
Failure of this title hurts us all, and if Skydog and others didn't convince 400 studios to hold off on release, we already would have had a repeat of TDCB.

Actually, if I remember correctly and if SkyDog's real name is Ben, I was in the meeting with Joe on this matter and Ben was called away by his wife and really didnt offer up that much in the chat that I was in with him. He did agree with the prevailing sentiment, but as I said, he had to run.
TC, myself, and one other, I think it was Erich, were the most vocal to hold up the release and get everything added.

There may have been another meeting, but if there was, I wasnt privy to the information discussed in it.

Dutch,
I honestly think you will be happy with this release. It truly has the potential to be groundbreaking.

[FBPro]

Originally posted by GrantDawg
I'm sorry, but how exactly is this the "TDCB" footprint? TDCB was released missing functions and large bugs. It was released before it was ready. If .400 listen to you and those screaming now, they would be doing the exact same thing with this game.

Instead, they are holding the game until everything is implemented and it is as stable and bug free as possible. It seems to me they are doing the exact opposite of what they did before, yet people are still complaining!

Did you expect them to do anythingelse BUT complain?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by cooleyvol
Actually, if I remember correctly and if SkyDog's real name is Ben, I was in the meeting with Joe on this matter and Ben was called away by his wife and really didnt offer up that much in the chat that I was in with him. He did agree with the prevailing sentiment, but as I said, he had to run.
TC, myself, and one other, I think it was Erich, were the most vocal to hold up the release and get everything added.

There may have been another meeting, but if there was, I wasnt privy to the information discussed in it.

Dutch,
I honestly think you will be happy with this release. It truly has the potential to be groundbreaking.

Yes, I was talking to SWMBO during that meeting. I had already talked with Joe at length about my opinion prior to that meeting though. They were well aware of where I stood when that meeting started, which is why I didn't feel the need to stick around when she came home. (Of course, I'm not known for holding my opinions close to my vest.... )

[Dutch]

Wow. You guys aren't going to start crying on me are you?

Reminder: This is the FOFC boards, we can be a little tougher on game developers around these parts! And it's only because we care. Seriously, good luck on TPF. And relax, I'm quite certain 400 studios isn't going to fold because I didn't say they were most definately going to release the greatest game ever.

[MizzouRah]

Originally posted by 44Niners
I can only assume you are being sarcastic.

Actually, no. Just becuase they move a release day back (see many, many games) they are in trouble?

Funny how Jim announces his new game - a game competing with TPF, a game everyone here was hyped about - and now all this crap about how .400 studios is in trouble. I don't get it.

Maybe I missed something on the TPF forums, I'll have to read through some messages over there.


This is starting to sound like a Sega vs EA war.........



Todd

[Joe Canadian]

Originally posted by 44Niners
Plus the tone over there is either be a fanboy or be flamed, constructive criticism is being dealt with by locking threads and excuses.

What forums are you looking at... the topics that were locked contained NO constructive criticism, it was basiclly these two things:

- You're a fanboy if you don't agree with me.

&

- .400 is going to flop, lets call them .250 Studios instead.

Thats not constructive, there's actual debate occuring in the sticky thread in the TPF forum, the two thread that were locked contained name-calling, and were un-needed since there was a thread for the sole purpose of commenting on the release delay.

[HornedFrog Purple]

If I take what I have read at face value, this seems a case of bad timing. If they had said the same thing a week ago or Jim had made this announcement this coming Friday, this probably wouldn't be as big of an issue.

It seems that they have learned their lesson from TDCB which they have openly admitted was a horrible decision. Only time will tell.

[KJDelaney]

I don't think they are done, per se. But they have a some work to do. I just cannot believe that they locked 2 of my posts and have all of my posts proof read by the moderator prior to posting.

I am however very happy that FOF is coming out with a new version. Now if you could just put a little work on a playcalling system on TCY.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Dutch said

we can be a little tougher on game developers around these parts! And it's only because we care.

Although I'm looking at this more broadly than +/- .400, I agree.

For better or worse, I believe there's a group of posters here who not only enjoy playing sims, but analyzing broader subjects like "the state of the sim industry" or "the direction of the sim industry" or whatever.

Maybe it's a personality flaw, or just a quirk, or something in between, but it's something I believe that some folks here do put some thought into.

I also know if I was a developer, or even a wanna-be developer with just an idea being formed, this is one of two places I'd look for feedback. Not just about the specifics of "my" game, but to get some insight into what works, doesn't work, is desirable or undesirable, etc.

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Dutch said

Although I'm looking at this more broadly than +/- .400, I agree.

For better or worse, I believe there's a group of posters here who not only enjoy playing sims, but analyzing broader subjects like "the state of the sim industry" or "the direction of the sim industry" or whatever.

Maybe it's a personality flaw, or just a quirk, or something in between, but it's something I believe that some folks here do put some thought into.

I also know if I was a developer, or even a wanna-be developer with just an idea being formed, this is one of two places I'd look for feedback. Not just about the specifics of "my" game, but to get some insight into what works, doesn't work, is desirable or undesirable, etc.

Yes, and I'm one of the people who do this all the time, but some how if I don't agree with Dutch I'm "going light" on the developers. In other words, agree with the bitchers or your a "fan-boy."

[Easy Mac]

TROUT

[mckerney]

RECTUM

[Easy Mac]

Colonoscopy

[GrantDawg]

Originally posted by mckerney
RECTUM

Rectum hell, damn near killed 'em.

[Easy Mac]

insert cricket chirps here

[44Niners]

Originally posted by MizzouRah
Actually, no. Just becuase they move a release day back (see many, many games) they are in trouble?

Todd

No the reason I believe they are in trouble is as follows:

1. the TDCB debacle
2. the subsequent breakup with Markus and losing their marquee product
3. the announcement of FOF2004 which changed the market from one in which they were the only players, to one in which they now must compete with a proven entity
4. the delay, which I agree happens all the time. However the vast majority of the .400 products are in development and with a poor track record it would not be at all surprising to see the whole thing go up in smoke.