Zimmer should be gone

mckerney · 10-11-2003, 04:47 PM

They say there's discussing who will be ejected from the Sox - Yankees game and Zimmer should be the first one thrown out. Seeking out and swinging at Martinez is totally classless, but typical Yankee bullshit.

VPI97 · 10-11-2003, 05:05 PM

But threatening to throw at a batter's head is A-OK.

Glengoyne · 10-11-2003, 05:06 PM

I missed the fight, but heard about it from a friend. If Zimmer did what my friend described he crossed the line in a very big way.

mckerney · 10-11-2003, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VPI97
But threatening to throw at a batter's head is A-OK.

But someone would actually throw at someone in that situation

I guess then Michael Tejera really had a grudge against his teammates.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 05:10 PM

Can someone please give me a replay on what happened? All I saw was Pedro toss Zimmer to the ground.

mckerney · 10-11-2003, 05:12 PM

After the benches cleared following Martinez getting upset with a pitch from Clemens, Zimmer runs onto the field to find Pedro, approches him and swings at him, in respone to which Pedro dodged it and threw him away.

John Galt · 10-11-2003, 05:13 PM

What?!??!

Zimmer and Pedro were coming at each other. Pedro had already headhunted at Garcia and threatened the entire Yankee team by saying he was going to hit them in the head. And Zimmer never hit Pedro - they charged at each other, Zimmer had his hand pointing at Pedro, and Pedro used both hands, grabbed Zimmer by the head and threw him to the ground.

Pedro should be kicked out of this game and the series. I can't believe he is still pitching.

Marmel · 10-11-2003, 05:14 PM

A 72 year old man swinging his left hand with an open hand, not a fist is a threat to pedro that he has to throw him down? Red Sox Nation gets what is coming to them on National TV.

Class vs. Classless on display.

mckerney · 10-11-2003, 05:14 PM

Pointed at Pedro?

VPI97 · 10-11-2003, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mckerney
Pointed at Pedro?

Only a Red Sox fan would think otherwise

Pedro should be suspended for the remainder of the playoffs + a portion of next season.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 05:16 PM

LOL - Can I get a description of what happened from someone other than from NYC? I'm not choosing sides, just want the facts. How did he "Say" that he was going to hit them in the head? Who swung at whom first?

Glengoyne · 10-11-2003, 05:17 PM

I don't know if that 72 year old man was really trying to resolve the situation in an appropriate manner. The managers are supposed to stop fights, not pile on. Especially not even pick a side. I am a Zimmer Fan, but really he can't throw a punch in that situation, not even a lame punch.

John Galt · 10-11-2003, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mckerney
Pointed at Pedro?

I couldn't tell if he swung at him. The angles were all bad. It may have been more than a point, but I couldn't tell. Either way, Pedro attacked and threw down one of the greatest guys in baseball. It was an embarassment.

Zimmer should have stayed on the bench (and I don't disagree that there were grounds to throw him out), but what Pedro has done in this game is inexcusable. I've always been a Pedro fan, but no more - I'd be happy if he never played a game again.

mckerney · 10-11-2003, 05:18 PM

The is no way he just pointed. Pedro should not be suspended for defending himself.

VPI97 · 10-11-2003, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
LOL - Can I get a description of what happened from someone other than from NYC?

Well, I'm not a Yankee or a Red Sox fan...and Galt's description is what took place from my neutral eyes.

Solecismic · 10-11-2003, 05:19 PM

1) Clearly, there's been a lot of anger between Pedro and the Yankees this year, going back to the Soriano-Jeter beanings in July.

2) Things were going badly for Pedro, and after a run-scoring double left first open (though with none out), he threw behind Karim Garcia's head, hitting him near his neck. There's a lot of yelling from the Yankee dugout. Pedro points at the Yankee dugout, then points to his head, clearly threatening more beanballs.

3) Next inning, Clemens throws high to Manny Ramirez, probably a strike if it were a foot lower, but definitely on the inside half of the plate. Manny starts throwing f-bombs and starts out toward Roger. Clemens throws some f-bombs back. The benches clear, but it's all just yelling.

4) Pedro starts yelling some more at the Yankee dugout. Zimmer comes out, they're both yelling at each other, walking toward each other. Zimmer appears to raise his hands to push Pedro, who grabs him and throws him down. I think that shocked everyone so much that there was no further altercation.

Both sides seem quite tense now, and the Sox are rallying in the 6th.

John Galt · 10-11-2003, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
LOL - Can I get a description of what happened from someone other than from NYC? I'm not choosing sides, just want the facts. How did he "Say" that he was going to hit them in the head? Who swung at whom first?

As I said in my last post, it was probably more than a point, but it didn't look like a punch either. The replay you saw is the whole incident. It all happened in that second. mckerney is the one saying there was a "punch" in that limited time.

Either way - defending yourself from an old, wobbling man is crazy and the throw down was viscious and unnecessary.

Alan T · 10-11-2003, 05:22 PM

I actually think a little less of both teams here. I feel that I can almost tell people's allegiances from the slants on the posts here..

From my supposed "neutral" view, I dont think either side was doing the right thing. It feels like both sides are escalating it and I expect it to boil at some point.

Alan T · 10-11-2003, 05:25 PM

Also.. so far for the score, I have no idea if Pedro was trying to hit Garcia or not, but that pitch had to get way away if he wasnt trying to hit him. With 1B empty, that seems a little too convienant to me.

I did not have a problem with where Roger threw the ball the next inning, and think Manny was a tool in his reaction.

I thought Clemens pitch to Millar was much closer to his head, but I dont know that I believe it was intentional, and Millar was classy in his reaction either way.

Zimmer is absolutely a bafoon for going all the way across the field in front of the rEd sox dug out and it appeared that he was trying to slap at Pedro from my point of view. I dont know that I have a problem when someone defends themselves from that, and Pedro walked away afterwards instead of letting it get worse..

So anyhows, I see plenty of fault on both sides here.

TroyF · 10-11-2003, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alan T
Also.. so far for the score, I have no idea if Pedro was trying to hit Garcia or not, but that pitch had to get way away if he wasnt trying to hit him. With 1B empty, that seems a little too convienant to me.

I did not have a problem with where Roger threw the ball the next inning, and think Manny was a tool in his reaction.

I thought Clemens pitch to Millar was much closer to his head, but I dont know that I believe it was intentional, and Millar was classy in his reaction either way.

Zimmer is absolutely a bafoon for going all the way across the field in front of the rEd sox dug out and it appeared that he was trying to slap at Pedro from my point of view. I dont know that I have a problem when someone defends themselves from that, and Pedro walked away afterwards instead of letting it get worse..

So anyhows, I see plenty of fault on both sides here.

I think your analysis is dead on. Both teams were a bunch of idiots. Manny and Pedro were first class tools. Garcia sliding late at Walker wasn't exactly a clean play either.

Zimmer had his hand raised at Pedro. If a 77 year old charges at me with his hands raised, I'm knocking him on his ass. Zimmer is lucky in my mind that Pedro didn't cold cock him. IMO, he'd have been well within his rights to do so. Zimmer wants to come out and scream, that's fine. He charges with a hand raised in an attack position, he deserves ANYTHING that comes his way.

Pedro is a jack ass for head hunting. He was well within his rights to throw Zimmer, and a great case could be made that he took it easy on the old guy by doing what he did.

TroyF

Solecismic · 10-11-2003, 05:33 PM

Alan,

I think Pedro was trying to hit Garcia. Just too far inside. And too close to the head.

The pitch to Manny was a message-pitch, but Clemens had been warned just a minute earlier and didn't come very close. The pitch to Millar wasn't high, but very far inside.

Zimmer was a buffoon, and I can't say the throw-down was anywhere near the most serious event that took place.

Here's what I don't like...

A) Pedro pointing to the dugout, then pointing to his head.

B) Manny walking out toward Clemens after a pretty wimpy purpose pitch.

C) The coach of a team losing his cool and initiating physical contact with an opponent.

D) Pedro's reaction after he struck out Posada the following inning.

E) Clemens appeared to point back at the Sox dugout when getting the big double-play to end the 6th. Not the classiest move after what looks to be his last pitch in Fenway.

This is far from over. Let's just hope the score stays close for the next five games, or someone's going to get hurt.

Hammer755 · 10-11-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mckerney
The is no way he just pointed. Pedro should not be suspended for defending himself.

Please, what was Pedro doing on the field in the first place?

Old man Zimmer came charging like a bull at Pedro. Pedro grabbed him and threw him on his head.

Both Zimmer & Pedro should've been tossed. Zimmer was the instegater, but Pedor had no business being on the field with the Sox batting. These umpires are a joke.

Not to mention the thing that started this was when Ramirez started jawing at Clemens over a pitch that came nowhere close to hitting him.

Solecismic · 10-11-2003, 05:35 PM

Editing above.

A1) Any pitch thrown high and behind a batter.

John Galt · 10-11-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Solecismic

E) Clemens appeared to point back at the Sox dugout when getting the big double-play to end the 6th. Not the classiest move after what looks to be his last pitch in Fenway.

I'm not sure, but I thought he was pointing at Jeter for making a good play. I thought the same as you until they switched camera angles and you could see Roger was headed toward the Yankee dugout. He may have been pointing into the stands, but I don't think it was the Red Sox dugout.

TroyF · 10-11-2003, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hammer755
Please, what was Pedro doing on the field in the first place?

Old man Zimmer came charging like a bull at Pedro. Pedro grabbed him and threw him on his head.

Both Zimmer & Pedro should've been tossed. Zimmer was the instegater, but Pedor had no business being on the field with the Sox batting. These umpires are a joke.

Not to mention the thing that started this was when Ramirez started jawing at Clemens over a pitch that came nowhere close to hitting him.

What was Pedro doing on the field? The same thing Roger was doing on the field an inning earlier. You have to support your teammates. Roger didn't get ejected, neither should Pedro.

There are TWO people who deserved ejection after all was said and done. Manny for throwing a fit over nothing and starting it all and Zimmer for initiating phsycial contact. That's it.

I agree with everything Jim said in his post above.

TroyF

Samdari · 10-11-2003, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
What?!??!

Zimmer and Pedro were coming at each other. Pedro had already headhunted at Garcia and threatened the entire Yankee team by saying he was going to hit them in the head. And Zimmer never hit Pedro - they charged at each other, Zimmer had his hand pointing at Pedro, and Pedro used both hands, grabbed Zimmer by the head and threw him to the ground.

Pedro should be kicked out of this game and the series. I can't believe he is still pitching.

72 or not, Zim was very clearly charging Pedro, and swinging at him as they approached. Pedro did defend himself, using more force than necesary, I agree, but Zimmer clearly instigated the physical confrontation between the two.

I pray I have those kind of balls at that age.

RPI-Fan · 10-11-2003, 06:01 PM

Since when is Zimmer one of the greatest guys in baseball? I've never heard anything good nor bad from him. Just because he's fought through hardships doens't make him great for baseball. Sure he hasn't done anythign bad, but I've never heard anything particularly enlightening from him.

What was Pedro supposed to do? Run away like a little girl? He did the right thing. He had three options: Run away like a baby, swing back at Zimmer, or defend himself without attacking Zimmer. He did the latter, and it was the right thing.

What are all you proposing Pedro should have done? What different action could he have taken?

Solecismic · 10-11-2003, 06:10 PM

I think they should adopt the football approach and settle these things with fines and suspensions if the crime is serious enough.

Pedro earned quite a nice fine with the Garcia pitch and the pointing. And maybe it was worth it. The Yankee bats haven't made a peep since. Soriano was nice enough to let Pedro off the hook with the double-play ball.

Off-topic, but something I'm curious about. Clemens was at 96 pitches through six, and still looked like he had good stuff. The Yankees bullpen has been terrible all year. Why did they pull him?

It was a tense situation, and Clemens' experience was invaluable. The relievers barely made it through the 7th, giving half the lead back. I thought Heredia was going to pass out from fear, and Contreras was all over the place.

And Pedro wasn't even at 100 pitches either. Why pull him after seven? He had the Yankees so intimidated, Jeter was wishing he was back in the office trading credit cards with Steinbrenner.

You talk about expansion and 12-man pitching staffs diluting pitching, and it shows. I do not understand why you'd want anyone but Clemens and Martinez pitching in this game - maybe Rivera in the 9th if the pitch count is over 120.

Killebrew · 10-11-2003, 06:19 PM

Is there any obscure baseball rule that would cause both these teams to be disqualified from the playoffs this year?

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 06:22 PM

God, can we finally play some baseball?

That guy who jumped in the pen deserves to get his ass kicked. If anything the police saved him. Nelson would have railed him.

Alan T · 10-11-2003, 06:26 PM

Nice.. it was a fenway park groundskeeper who did that.

Solecismic · 10-11-2003, 06:26 PM

A groundskeeper? Jeez.

CentralMassHokie · 10-11-2003, 06:26 PM

Just one point I want to make:

I'm not convinced Pedro was threatening more beanballs. There are any number of logical explanations (especially regarding Pedro):

Think, why would I throw at Garcia and load the bases.

or, and this is what I think he was saying:

Now I'm in your heads.

It was all a bunch of crap. Pedro's pitch up and in was uncalled for. Garcia's slide was uncalled for. Manny's reaction to Clemens' pitch was uncalled for. Zimmer chargin Pedro was uncalled for. Clemens coming back inside against Millar was uncalled for.

Can't say there hasn't been a lot of emotion, that's for sure.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 06:32 PM

That was a groundskeeper?

What an idiot. Hey, Wal-Mart is hiring!

Glengoyne · 10-11-2003, 07:01 PM

Pretty much anyone claiming that Zimmer was "pointing" at Pedro should go out and buy a clue. Zimmer charged him and I don't think he was intending to give him a love tap. I have always been a big Zimmer fan, but he was clearly in the wrong here. And what about the Yankee fan who said the Clemmens pitch was nearly a strike? come on!?! I don't think anyone taking Pedro's side has much room to stand on either.

I am a bit annoyed at the guy in the studio saying that Pedro shoulda just stepped out of the way.

This is more evidence to me that they should get rid of the rule calling for the expulsion of pitchers for throwing at batters. I mean if you aren't going to enforce it in the post season why bother at all. IMO if the batters didn't just assume they were safe up there, they would probably actually be safer than they are now.

DolphinFan1 · 10-11-2003, 07:08 PM

Ok, I watched the entire game. Here is my opinion on what happened. I am a Red Sox fan but I don't condone winning by cheating or other non professional means.

I don't think Pedro was trying to hit a guy in that situation. Come on 2nd and 3rd and no one out.

Garcia's slide into 2nd was unnessary.

Clemens' pitch to Manny wasn't that close and Manny was totally wrong for making a big deal out of it. The pitch to Millar later was closer to him.

Zimmer shouldn't have been out there charging anyone.

Pedro probably could have handled it better.

The groundskeeper is a dumb ass. If he isn't fired then that's a shame.

Samdari · 10-11-2003, 07:11 PM

Is anyone else annoyed at the Yankee fan club calling this game?

Them saying that if Karim Garcia is hurt, the Yankees should be able to replace him, because he got hurt by a fan running onto the field. Huh? The guy was in a fight in the bullpen with Nelson, at least 10 security guys were there before any Yankees (including others in the pen, nice guys) and Garcia runs, jumps in, and starts punching the guy being held down by half the security force. He hurts his hand this way and the Yanks need some special dispensation as a result? Come on.

TroyF · 10-11-2003, 07:23 PM

I agree. I understand why you would want to protect your teammates, but they didn't need protecting when he jumped over the wall.

Garcia didn't handle the pitch very well. Maybe I wouldn't have either. . . but if he had a problem, he should have charged Martinez, not attempt to take his frustration out on Todd Walker and certainly not jumping into a situation that was already in control and making it worse.

I still cannot believe Zimmer. He should never be allowed to sit on the bench again. It's bad enough when players attack players, a coach going after a player should never happen.

Clemens screaming from the dugout about a guy headhunting was one of the more interesting things I've ever seen as well. (no, he didn't head hunt today, but we all know the pitch to Piazza was no accident)

It's really quite sad. I was happy cheering for the Red Sox and against the Yankees this series. Now I don't know if I can really cheer for anyone. I only saw any of this game because of all the big blowouts in football today. I doubt I'll watch a second of the game tomorrow.

TroyF

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 07:26 PM

I agree with that 100% Samdari.

So if someone attacks my friend, I can run in after the police have him down and start kicking him? Comon. I'd probably be in jail with the guy. I'm sick of all this preferential treatment. Let the cops do their jobs. The only person who has a right to defend themselves in that situation is the person who is being violated.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 07:29 PM

I don't know if the groundskeeper was injured by Garcia kicking him, but I'd consider suing Garcia if I were him.

Marmel · 10-11-2003, 07:40 PM

Anybody care to defend the Boston security and work crew in between shots at the Yankees?

Ragone · 10-11-2003, 07:47 PM

In other news.. Boston has hired William Ligue Jr to run their security for the playoffs!

vtbub · 10-11-2003, 07:49 PM

No excuse for that behaviour Marm, none.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 07:52 PM

All I know is if the Groundkeeper was seriously injured (maybe if he got kicked in the eye region of the face) by a cleat (sp),by Garcia, who wasn't being attacked, he'd be in big trouble.

Marmel · 10-11-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TroyF
If a 77 year old charges at me with his hands raised, I'm knocking him on his ass.

You are no better than Pedro then.

Would you cold cock a woman coming after you? A women would have a better shot than a 72 year old guy wanting to give you a little shove. Pedro easily eluded Zim, and then grabbed his head and shoved it to the ground. That is a sign of a weak, classless person, and you are if you can defend that and say you would do the same.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
You are no better than Pedro then.

Would you cold cock a woman coming after you? A women would have a better shot than a 72 year old guy wanting to give you a little shove. Pedro easily eluded Zim, and then grabbed his head and shoved it to the ground. That is a sign of a weak, classless person, and you are if you can defend that and say you would do the same.

Comon TroyF is a good guy, he gives us his game capsules each week out of his busy schedule. Don't call him classless just because he wants to defend Pedro.

In my opinion (and most guys opinions) fighting a girl is a non-issue, because we'd never do it. Its not debatable, its open and shut, a no brainer. Only if the girl/lady had a gun or a knife or something that could possibly kill me, then I'd tackle or even punch her. But if she's just coming at me with her fists, then I just duck or whatever.

I agree with TroyF in this situation. As long as I can tell that he's not mentally challenged or senile or anything of that sort, I'm going to drill the old man who goes after me. He's ** ATTEMPTING ** to hurt me, so that makes me low for shoving him to the ground? So much for victims rights: He missed and I'm safe so thats all I have the right to do. If anything, I think Pedro took it easy on him. He could have cold-clocked him right in the face with his fist. Him "throwing" him on the ground wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of things. If someone , ANY MALE, takes a swing at me and all I do is throw him to the ground, he's getting off easy in my opinion. I see where you're coming from with saying he's old and everything, and respect your opinion. I just don't feel the same.

Marmel · 10-11-2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philliesfan980
Comon TroyF is a good guy, he gives us his game capsules each week out of his busy schedule. Don't call him classless just because he wants to defend Pedro.

In my opinion (and most guys opinions) fighting a girl is a non-issue, because we'd never do it. Its not debatable, its open and shut, a no brainer. Only if the girl/lady had a gun or a knife or something that could possibly kill me, then I'd tackle or even punch her. But if she's just coming at me with her fists, then I just duck or whatever.

I agree with TroyF in this situation. As long as I can tell that he's not mentally challenged or senile or anything of that sort, I'm going to drill the old man who goes after me. He's ** ATTEMPTING ** to hurt me, so that makes me low for shoving him to the ground? So much for victims rights: He missed and I'm safe so thats all I have the right to do. If anything, I think Pedro took it easy on him. He could have cold-clocked him right in the face with his fist. Him "throwing" him on the ground wasn't that bad in the grand scheme of things. If someone , ANY MALE, takes a swing at me and all I do is throw him to the ground, he's getting off easy in my opinion. I see where you're coming from with saying he's old and everything, and respect your opinion. I just don't feel the same.

I guess we could agree to disagree on the situation Pfan.

I rarely, if ever agree with Troy, and just felt like calling him on this one.

As a side note, Zim was in a 2 week coma due to getting hit in the head by a pitch and has a plate in his head because if it, so he does not take kindly to pitchers throwing at his guy's heads.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
I guess we could agree to disagree on the situation Pfan.

I rarely, if ever agree with Troy, and just felt like calling him on this one.

As a side note, Zim was in a 2 week coma due to getting hit in the head by a pitch and has a plate in his head because if it, so he does not take kindly to pitchers throwing at his guy's heads.

I can live with us disagreeing about it - not a problem. I see both sides of the situation clearly.

As for Zimmer, its a shame what happened to him back in the 50's (I think thats when it was). Was he wearing a helmet then? Not sure when the advent of the batting helment became a prevalent thing in Major League Baseball. To be honest, I've been watching baseball since 86 (when I was 6), and I'm trying to remember ever seeing someone get seriously injured by getting hit in the head with a helmet. Most of the time , they are a little woozy, probably more stunned than anything else. If they really wanna knock someone out, pitch for the hands. Getting hit in the hand is the worst spot to get hit. Instant broken finger and done for the year.

Samdari · 10-11-2003, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marmel
You are no better than Pedro then.

Would you cold cock a woman coming after you? A women would have a better shot than a 72 year old guy wanting to give you a little shove. Pedro easily eluded Zim, and then grabbed his head and shoved it to the ground. That is a sign of a weak, classless person, and you are if you can defend that and say you would do the same.

It is instinct for humans to defend themselves Marmel. If someone is charging you with intent to hurt, you WILL defend yourself. Was it necesary for Pedro to throw an old man's head to the ground after you had neutralized the threat? No, but if old men do not want to get hurt by young professional athletes, they should not attack them.

What does the plate in his head thing excuse what Zim did? He cannot be both agressor and victim. He chose to be the agressor and is the victim here only of his own stupidity.

Philliesfan980 · 10-11-2003, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
It is instinct for humans to defend themselves Marmel. If someone is charging you with intent to hurt, you WILL defend yourself. Was it necesary for Pedro to throw an old man's head to the ground after you had neutralized the threat? No, but if old men do not want to get hurt by young professional athletes, they should not attack them.

What does the plate in his head thing excuse what Zim did? He cannot be both agressor and victim. He chose to be the agressor and is the victim here only of his own stupidity.

This whole thread has a Siegfried and Roy feel to it...

10-11-2003, 05:05 PM	#2
VPI97 Hokie, Hokie, Hokie, Hi Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Kennesaw, GA	But threatening to throw at a batter's head is A-OK. __________________ CT & Jivin - "Surprisingly Entertaining" Last edited by VPI97 : 10-11-2003 at 05:05 PM.

10-11-2003, 05:13 PM	#7
John Galt Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Internets	What?!??! Zimmer and Pedro were coming at each other. Pedro had already headhunted at Garcia and threatened the entire Yankee team by saying he was going to hit them in the head. And Zimmer never hit Pedro - they charged at each other, Zimmer had his hand pointing at Pedro, and Pedro used both hands, grabbed Zimmer by the head and threw him to the ground. Pedro should be kicked out of this game and the series. I can't believe he is still pitching. __________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

10-11-2003, 05:14 PM	#8
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	A 72 year old man swinging his left hand with an open hand, not a fist is a threat to pedro that he has to throw him down? Red Sox Nation gets what is coming to them on National TV. Class vs. Classless on display. __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

10-11-2003, 05:22 PM	#18
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	I actually think a little less of both teams here. I feel that I can almost tell people's allegiances from the slants on the posts here.. From my supposed "neutral" view, I dont think either side was doing the right thing. It feels like both sides are escalating it and I expect it to boil at some point. __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

10-11-2003, 05:25 PM	#19
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Also.. so far for the score, I have no idea if Pedro was trying to hit Garcia or not, but that pitch had to get way away if he wasnt trying to hit him. With 1B empty, that seems a little too convienant to me. I did not have a problem with where Roger threw the ball the next inning, and think Manny was a tool in his reaction. I thought Clemens pitch to Millar was much closer to his head, but I dont know that I believe it was intentional, and Millar was classy in his reaction either way. Zimmer is absolutely a bafoon for going all the way across the field in front of the rEd sox dug out and it appeared that he was trying to slap at Pedro from my point of view. I dont know that I have a problem when someone defends themselves from that, and Pedro walked away afterwards instead of letting it get worse.. So anyhows, I see plenty of fault on both sides here. __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

10-11-2003, 05:06 PM	#3
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	I missed the fight, but heard about it from a friend. If Zimmer did what my friend described he crossed the line in a very big way.

10-11-2003, 05:10 PM	#5
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	Can someone please give me a replay on what happened? All I saw was Pedro toss Zimmer to the ground.

10-11-2003, 05:12 PM	#6
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	After the benches cleared following Martinez getting upset with a pitch from Clemens, Zimmer runs onto the field to find Pedro, approches him and swings at him, in respone to which Pedro dodged it and threw him away.

10-11-2003, 05:16 PM	#11
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	LOL - Can I get a description of what happened from someone other than from NYC? I'm not choosing sides, just want the facts. How did he "Say" that he was going to hit them in the head? Who swung at whom first?

10-11-2003, 05:17 PM	#12
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	I don't know if that 72 year old man was really trying to resolve the situation in an appropriate manner. The managers are supposed to stop fights, not pile on. Especially not even pick a side. I am a Zimmer Fan, but really he can't throw a punch in that situation, not even a lame punch.

10-11-2003, 05:18 PM	#14
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	The is no way he just pointed. Pedro should not be suspended for defending himself.

10-11-2003, 05:19 PM	#16
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	1) Clearly, there's been a lot of anger between Pedro and the Yankees this year, going back to the Soriano-Jeter beanings in July. 2) Things were going badly for Pedro, and after a run-scoring double left first open (though with none out), he threw behind Karim Garcia's head, hitting him near his neck. There's a lot of yelling from the Yankee dugout. Pedro points at the Yankee dugout, then points to his head, clearly threatening more beanballs. 3) Next inning, Clemens throws high to Manny Ramirez, probably a strike if it were a foot lower, but definitely on the inside half of the plate. Manny starts throwing f-bombs and starts out toward Roger. Clemens throws some f-bombs back. The benches clear, but it's all just yelling. 4) Pedro starts yelling some more at the Yankee dugout. Zimmer comes out, they're both yelling at each other, walking toward each other. Zimmer appears to raise his hands to push Pedro, who grabs him and throws him down. I think that shocked everyone so much that there was no further altercation. Both sides seem quite tense now, and the Sox are rallying in the 6th.

10-11-2003, 05:33 PM	#21
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	Alan, I think Pedro was trying to hit Garcia. Just too far inside. And too close to the head. The pitch to Manny was a message-pitch, but Clemens had been warned just a minute earlier and didn't come very close. The pitch to Millar wasn't high, but very far inside. Zimmer was a buffoon, and I can't say the throw-down was anywhere near the most serious event that took place. Here's what I don't like... A) Pedro pointing to the dugout, then pointing to his head. B) Manny walking out toward Clemens after a pretty wimpy purpose pitch. C) The coach of a team losing his cool and initiating physical contact with an opponent. D) Pedro's reaction after he struck out Posada the following inning. E) Clemens appeared to point back at the Sox dugout when getting the big double-play to end the 6th. Not the classiest move after what looks to be his last pitch in Fenway. This is far from over. Let's just hope the score stays close for the next five games, or someone's going to get hurt.

10-11-2003, 05:35 PM	#23
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	Editing above. A1) Any pitch thrown high and behind a batter. Last edited by Solecismic : 10-11-2003 at 05:36 PM.

10-11-2003, 06:01 PM	#27
RPI-Fan Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Troy, NY	Since when is Zimmer one of the greatest guys in baseball? I've never heard anything good nor bad from him. Just because he's fought through hardships doens't make him great for baseball. Sure he hasn't done anythign bad, but I've never heard anything particularly enlightening from him. What was Pedro supposed to do? Run away like a little girl? He did the right thing. He had three options: Run away like a baby, swing back at Zimmer, or defend himself without attacking Zimmer. He did the latter, and it was the right thing. What are all you proposing Pedro should have done? What different action could he have taken? __________________ Quis custodiets ipsos custodes?

10-11-2003, 06:10 PM	#28
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	I think they should adopt the football approach and settle these things with fines and suspensions if the crime is serious enough. Pedro earned quite a nice fine with the Garcia pitch and the pointing. And maybe it was worth it. The Yankee bats haven't made a peep since. Soriano was nice enough to let Pedro off the hook with the double-play ball. Off-topic, but something I'm curious about. Clemens was at 96 pitches through six, and still looked like he had good stuff. The Yankees bullpen has been terrible all year. Why did they pull him? It was a tense situation, and Clemens' experience was invaluable. The relievers barely made it through the 7th, giving half the lead back. I thought Heredia was going to pass out from fear, and Contreras was all over the place. And Pedro wasn't even at 100 pitches either. Why pull him after seven? He had the Yankees so intimidated, Jeter was wishing he was back in the office trading credit cards with Steinbrenner. You talk about expansion and 12-man pitching staffs diluting pitching, and it shows. I do not understand why you'd want anyone but Clemens and Martinez pitching in this game - maybe Rivera in the 9th if the pitch count is over 120.

10-11-2003, 06:19 PM	#29
Killebrew H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Feb 2003	Is there any obscure baseball rule that would cause both these teams to be disqualified from the playoffs this year?

10-11-2003, 06:22 PM	#30
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	God, can we finally play some baseball? That guy who jumped in the pen deserves to get his ass kicked. If anything the police saved him. Nelson would have railed him.

10-11-2003, 06:26 PM	#31
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	Nice.. it was a fenway park groundskeeper who did that. __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

10-11-2003, 06:26 PM	#33
CentralMassHokie High School JV Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Massachusetts	Just one point I want to make: I'm not convinced Pedro was threatening more beanballs. There are any number of logical explanations (especially regarding Pedro): Think, why would I throw at Garcia and load the bases. or, and this is what I think he was saying: Now I'm in your heads. It was all a bunch of crap. Pedro's pitch up and in was uncalled for. Garcia's slide was uncalled for. Manny's reaction to Clemens' pitch was uncalled for. Zimmer chargin Pedro was uncalled for. Clemens coming back inside against Millar was uncalled for. Can't say there hasn't been a lot of emotion, that's for sure.

10-11-2003, 06:32 PM	#34
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	That was a groundskeeper? What an idiot. Hey, Wal-Mart is hiring!

10-11-2003, 07:01 PM	#35
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	Pretty much anyone claiming that Zimmer was "pointing" at Pedro should go out and buy a clue. Zimmer charged him and I don't think he was intending to give him a love tap. I have always been a big Zimmer fan, but he was clearly in the wrong here. And what about the Yankee fan who said the Clemmens pitch was nearly a strike? come on!?! I don't think anyone taking Pedro's side has much room to stand on either. I am a bit annoyed at the guy in the studio saying that Pedro shoulda just stepped out of the way. This is more evidence to me that they should get rid of the rule calling for the expulsion of pitchers for throwing at batters. I mean if you aren't going to enforce it in the post season why bother at all. IMO if the batters didn't just assume they were safe up there, they would probably actually be safer than they are now.

10-11-2003, 07:08 PM	#36
DolphinFan1 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Connecticut	Ok, I watched the entire game. Here is my opinion on what happened. I am a Red Sox fan but I don't condone winning by cheating or other non professional means. I don't think Pedro was trying to hit a guy in that situation. Come on 2nd and 3rd and no one out. Garcia's slide into 2nd was unnessary. Clemens' pitch to Manny wasn't that close and Manny was totally wrong for making a big deal out of it. The pitch to Millar later was closer to him. Zimmer shouldn't have been out there charging anyone. Pedro probably could have handled it better. The groundskeeper is a dumb ass. If he isn't fired then that's a shame. __________________ GM of the Milwaukee Muscle Men of the ZFL. The 1st team in ZFL history to have a perfect losing season. I am on a quest to show that the Dolphins can win the Super Bowl. Or should I say Front Office Bowl, with FOF2K7. The revival of an old favorite, FOFC Wrestling Dynasty

10-11-2003, 07:11 PM	#37
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	Is anyone else annoyed at the Yankee fan club calling this game? Them saying that if Karim Garcia is hurt, the Yankees should be able to replace him, because he got hurt by a fan running onto the field. Huh? The guy was in a fight in the bullpen with Nelson, at least 10 security guys were there before any Yankees (including others in the pen, nice guys) and Garcia runs, jumps in, and starts punching the guy being held down by half the security force. He hurts his hand this way and the Yanks need some special dispensation as a result? Come on. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

10-11-2003, 07:23 PM	#38
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	I agree. I understand why you would want to protect your teammates, but they didn't need protecting when he jumped over the wall. Garcia didn't handle the pitch very well. Maybe I wouldn't have either. . . but if he had a problem, he should have charged Martinez, not attempt to take his frustration out on Todd Walker and certainly not jumping into a situation that was already in control and making it worse. I still cannot believe Zimmer. He should never be allowed to sit on the bench again. It's bad enough when players attack players, a coach going after a player should never happen. Clemens screaming from the dugout about a guy headhunting was one of the more interesting things I've ever seen as well. (no, he didn't head hunt today, but we all know the pitch to Piazza was no accident) It's really quite sad. I was happy cheering for the Red Sox and against the Yankees this series. Now I don't know if I can really cheer for anyone. I only saw any of this game because of all the big blowouts in football today. I doubt I'll watch a second of the game tomorrow. TroyF

10-11-2003, 07:26 PM	#39
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	I agree with that 100% Samdari. So if someone attacks my friend, I can run in after the police have him down and start kicking him? Comon. I'd probably be in jail with the guy. I'm sick of all this preferential treatment. Let the cops do their jobs. The only person who has a right to defend themselves in that situation is the person who is being violated.

10-11-2003, 07:29 PM	#40
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	I don't know if the groundskeeper was injured by Garcia kicking him, but I'd consider suing Garcia if I were him.

10-11-2003, 07:40 PM	#41
Marmel Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Manchester, CT	Anybody care to defend the Boston security and work crew in between shots at the Yankees? __________________ 81-78 Cincinnati basketball writer P. Daugherty, "Connor Barwin playing several minutes against Syracuse is like kids with slingshots taking down Caesar's legions."

10-11-2003, 07:47 PM	#42
Ragone Pro Rookie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kansas City, Mo	In other news.. Boston has hired William Ligue Jr to run their security for the playoffs!

10-11-2003, 07:49 PM	#43
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	No excuse for that behaviour Marm, none. __________________

10-11-2003, 07:52 PM	#44
Philliesfan980 Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Exton, PA	All I know is if the Groundkeeper was seriously injured (maybe if he got kicked in the eye region of the face) by a cleat (sp),by Garcia, who wasn't being attacked, he'd be in big trouble.

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