Hypothetical: Donte Hall.. MVP?

DeToxRox · 10-06-2003, 03:08 PM

Okay, here is something to ponder...

Let's say that Hall continues this sick pace he is on. For practical purposes, let's say he finishes the year with anywhere between 8-12 TD's on returns (Which seems perposterous now, but I thought 4 in 4 games wouldn't happen either), and lead's in punt return and kick return yardage. Would this constitute to you being NFL MVP?

For me personally, I do believe so. Especially if the Cheifs continue to win. His #'s would be the equivilant of the top QB, top RB, top WR, etc. He is the most dangerous player in the game right now, and if he keeps it up, he ought to be rewarded as MVP.

I think this is very similar to the Eric Gagne/Cy Young/MVP debate. I think Gagne deserves it, especially with no clear cut starter emerging.

Anyways, your thoughts?

cthomer5000 · 10-06-2003, 03:14 PM

It really depends on the output of other top skill players. If Stephen Davis ends up with 1,800 yards and the Panthers win their division, he'd have my vote.

Now if the running backs all top out at like 1,300 yards... and Hall returns 10+ kicks for touchdowns... maybe an argument can be made. Of course, I didn't see anyone pushing for Gary Anderson when he made every regular season kick a few years ago, so maybe special teams players don't/won't warrant serious MVP consideration.

Also, can they PLEASE rename it Player of the Year so we can get rid of the debates that focus around the "most valuable" player to each team?

Maple Leafs · 10-06-2003, 03:14 PM

I can't imagine a special teams guy being MVP. Is he really more valuable to that team than Priest?

DeToxRox · 10-06-2003, 03:16 PM

Priest is excellent, but I look at it like this: Hall puts them in great field position. He cuts the field in half. It makes it a lot easier for Priest.

And I agree with CT. If Davis gets 1800 yards and the Panthers win the divsion, he'll have earned it. But if it's all in the air, and Hall is in double digits for TD's, I think he should AT LEAST get consideration.

Butter · 10-06-2003, 03:24 PM

I doubt Hall will keep it up. If he does he will deserve consideration, but there is no way he will get it.

albionmoonlight · 10-06-2003, 03:24 PM

If they both keep on the pace that they are on, I would have to go with Stephen Davis right now. He is playing as well as any RB in the league (except Priest) and his team's success is, IMO, the most directly related to his performance.

cthomer5000 · 10-06-2003, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
I doubt Hall will keep it up. If he does he will deserve consideration, but there is no way he will get it.

If he does keep it up he might have a good case. We'll be talking about the all-time great season for kick returners, and he'll absolutely shatter the season record. Aside from the touchdowns, I think the bigger contribution is the amazing field position he'll give his team again and again. All I have to do is think of the Packers' Super Bowl run and Desmond Howard to realize just how much an impact a special teams player can have.

Still, he's facing some incredibly long odds.

DeToxRox · 10-06-2003, 03:32 PM

yeah, the desmond howard superbowl MVP is what really had me thinking about this question. It could be a very interesting debate down the line.

Vegas Vic · 10-06-2003, 03:42 PM

I'm not sure about real life, but he'd definitely be the MVP in FOF.

TroyF · 10-06-2003, 03:46 PM

Yep, he'd get my vote. He changes the entire game for the teams playing against him.

He has some problems getting there though:

1) He won't be kicked to anymore. Maybe a drunk coach will say "what the hell, kick it to the little bugger" and he'll get a couple of returns. . . but more likely they'll just boot the ball out of bounds, take the 10 less yards on the punt and go from there. The Chiefs will see an endless array of squib kicks, high/short kicks and punts. It will help the Chiefs out with field position, but it will kill Dante's MVP hopes. As a special teams guy, you need numbers. Without those 10-12 TD's you speak of, he won't get it. Having imperical data showing how he helps the Chiefs field position won't be enough.

2) The missed calls on the play yesterday will end up hurting him. How? The officials will be forced to start looking at the blocking harder. As we all know, blocks in the back occur all the time. The NFL isn't the NBA. It'll look closer at the Chiefs blocking after they see the clips Denver will send them. More scrutiny=more clip calls and less long returns.

TroyF

Ksyrup · 10-06-2003, 03:59 PM

I think Hall will get a few more kicks to return than intended simply because of poor execution by the punter. It's just like punting inside the 20, and punter puts it through the back of the endzone. An attempted angled kick goes right down the middle to Hall. It will happen.

I don't know if the Chiefs play the Steelers this year, but I hope they do, and I hope the Steelers' punter kicks it right to Hall, just so I can see Cowher go ballistic - my favorite angry coach.

TroyF · 10-06-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I think Hall will get a few more kicks to return than intended simply because of poor execution by the punter. It's just like punting inside the 20, and punter puts it through the back of the endzone. An attempted angled kick goes right down the middle to Hall. It will happen.

I don't know if the Chiefs play the Steelers this year, but I hope they do, and I hope the Steelers' punter kicks it right to Hall, just so I can see Cowher go ballistic - my favorite angry coach.

He'll get a few due to miscues. A few due to the other teams punting position. (it's difficult to worry about angling it if you're punting out from your own end zone)

Still, the chances will be much less frequent. He'll be lucky to be getting his hands on two kicks/punts a game, if that.

I agree on Cowher, but they've already played the Chiefs. Maybe next year.

TroyF

Daimyo · 10-06-2003, 04:08 PM

If Hall can keep up near this pace he'll definately deserve it. I imagine every opponent from here out will focus pretty heavily on him from so I doubt that happens, but if he can still produce under those circumstances he's definately deserving. Every so once in a while a young DB gets a bunch of interceptions over a stretch of games and then is quiet the rest of the season as the opponents adjust... I imagine this will be a similar situation.

A guy like Davis who is much more in control of his opportunities/production has a much higher shot to keep up their pace and win though, IMO.

mckerney · 10-06-2003, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Daimyo
If Hall can keep up near this pace he'll definately deserve it. I imagine every opponent from here out will focus pretty heavily on him from so I doubt that happens, but if he can still produce under those circumstances he's definately deserving. Every so once in a while a young DB gets a bunch of interceptions over a stretch of games and then is quiet the rest of the season as the opponents adjust... I imagine this will be a similar situation.

A guy like Davis who is much more in control of his opportunities/production has a much higher shot to keep up their pace and win though, IMO.

So you're saying Brian Russell won't finish the season with 16 interceptions?

Abe Sargent · 10-06-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
It really depends on the output of other top skill players. If Stephen Davis ends up with 1,800 yards and the Panthers win their division, he'd have my vote.

I know that cthomer5000's answer, echoed by many, is the easy, comfortable answer.

But I got to be honest, if Stephen Davis ran for 1850 yards, caught 350, and had, say, 18 TDs, I'd still want a Dante hall that returned 10+ TDs to win the MVP award.

IF, and I recognize that we are talking purely hypothetically here, but IF Dante returned 8 TDs, then he would have DOUBLED the current record, which he now is tied with. A running back with 1850 yards is doing nothing new.

A Dante Hall with 10 TDs would have simply obliterated any and all other single season return records of significance (maybe not, "Most TDs Returned by a Hallf of Famer" or "Most Yards by a Notre Dame Player" or something, but the real records.) SImply eradicated them from existance and rewritten the theories of the game towards returns.

And a back who gets 1850 yards is more worthy? In my opinion, that's just silly.

-Anxiety

SteelerFan448 · 10-06-2003, 08:49 PM

Hall can be the Chiefs MVP as a special teams player, but there is no way he'd be the NFL MVP. There are just going to be too many other 'regular' players that will get the nod over someone with special teams accomplishments.

Buccaneer · 10-06-2003, 08:55 PM

For all those jumping on the Chiefs' bandwagon or thinking they have the SB locked up - remember 1995 and 1997.

Celeval · 10-06-2003, 08:58 PM

The other thing to consider is kickoffs - punts can be angled out of bounds pretty easily, but a kickoff out of bounds is what; the ball at the 40 yard line? Is that the football equivalent to intentionally walking Barry Bonds every at-bat, even with the bases loaded?

If Dante Hall gets 10 returns for TDs, he's the MVP barring record-setting performances elsewhere.

Kevin

kcchief19 · 10-06-2003, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TroyF
1) He won't be kicked to anymore. Maybe a drunk coach will say "what the hell, kick it to the little bugger" and he'll get a couple of returns. . . but more likely they'll just boot the ball out of bounds, take the 10 less yards on the punt and go from there. The Chiefs will see an endless array of squib kicks, high/short kicks and punts.

Squibs won't do it. The Broncos squibbed one kick to him and he just about broke that one, too. They are going to have to put out of bounds on every play and they are going to have to squib kickoff to the up-men. I agree it will squash his numbers, but even so this guy will remain the single-biggest impact player in the league. If he returns another couple of kicks for a TD, I think he becomes a legitimate candidate.

Can anyone explain to me why Shanahan didn't order Knorr to kick that punt OB? He almost burned them on the earlier kick -- why tempt fate?

Quote:

Originally posted by TroyF
2) The missed calls on the play yesterday will end up hurting him. How? The officials will be forced to start looking at the blocking harder. As we all know, blocks in the back occur all the time. The NFL isn't the NBA. It'll look closer at the Chiefs blocking after they see the clips Denver will send them. More scrutiny=more clip calls and less long returns.
TroyF

Well, there was only one "missed" call and I'd be happy to send you the freeze-frame shot off my TiVo, 'cause it really looks like that block was mostly from the side. At live speed, I thought it might have been a clip and chances are that is going to get called 50/50. And the NFL isn't going to look at any clips from Denver on illegal blocking. Talk about the pot calling the kettle. The NFL isn't going to tell the refs to watch the Chiefs return more closely. He's been the most exciting player in the league for the last three weeks -- they want more of it.

That was also the only return Hall has had this season that even had a question. He usually just takes off and nobody can catch him. But that's why he can still be successful -- the special teams on the other side are keyed up on Hall right now, and that can easily lead to over pursuit, which is exactly how Denver got burned yesterday. And the Chiefs special teams are fired up blocking for this guy. The whole unit is on fire right now.

the_meanstrosity · 10-06-2003, 10:13 PM

TroyF,

"The missed calls on the play yesterday will end up hurting him. How? The officials will be forced to start looking at the blocking harder. As we all know, blocks in the back occur all the time. The NFL isn't the NBA. It'll look closer at the Chiefs blocking after they see the clips Denver will send them. More scrutiny=more clip calls and less long returns."

Are you still going at it? That's the most absurd statement I've ever seen. So will the officials also be watching Denver now? After all, they did catch the holding penalties (two of them on one play) on Denver's kick return which was called back.

The officials are watching every play. And to think they are going to key up on KC's unit because a bunch of Broncos fans are whining about it is wishful thinking at most and at worst some sort of demented nightmare caused from the Denver altitude.

As for Dante Hall continuing to find the end zone, I don't think anyone is counting on it. He's had an impressive run, but there's a reason why 4 return TD's is the record in the NFL. It's not easy to do. KC needs to get their offense back on track and hope Hall and the other special teamers can provide them with good field position.

TroyF · 10-06-2003, 10:42 PM

Look guys. . . get pissed all you want. If you don't think the NFL will be embarrased by not one, but two missed clip calls on a single play, you are the ones smoking something.

I explained the Broncos "chop block" supposed breaking of the rules in another thread. They were fined repeatedly when the rules were first changed. After they learned the new rules, the fines stopped. Why is that? It's because they aren't breaking the rules anymore. They are stretching them, but they aren't breaking them. If you have your Tivo, replay the game and watch the blocking scheme of the Broncos. Tell me where the illegal ones were. I can go to the exact time and play, as I have TIVO as well. I just looked at the 65 yard TD run. . . there wasn't one low block on the entire play. It was a simple off tackle play with evey Bronco lineman putting a hat on a Chief. For kicks, I just went throug 7 runs and didn't see anything close to illegal. Just show me the play, I'll look at it and comment on it.

Lastly, I'm not whining about the blown call. It was a blown call, two of em to be exact. Denver blew it by kicking it to him in the first place. They challenged fate all game and got what they deserved. I haven't said otherwise in a single thread. The officials will be watching the clip calls closer, just wait and see.

As for keeping the ball away from Dante on kickoffs, look for really high short kicks. Moon balls that come down between the 35 and 25. More than likely, the KC upmen will be calling fair catches on them.

TroyF

10-06-2003, 03:24 PM	#5
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	I doubt Hall will keep it up. If he does he will deserve consideration, but there is no way he will get it. __________________ My listening habits

10-06-2003, 03:24 PM	#6
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	If they both keep on the pace that they are on, I would have to go with Stephen Davis right now. He is playing as well as any RB in the league (except Priest) and his team's success is, IMO, the most directly related to his performance. Last edited by albionmoonlight : 10-06-2003 at 03:25 PM.

10-06-2003, 03:59 PM	#11
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I think Hall will get a few more kicks to return than intended simply because of poor execution by the punter. It's just like punting inside the 20, and punter puts it through the back of the endzone. An attempted angled kick goes right down the middle to Hall. It will happen. I don't know if the Chiefs play the Steelers this year, but I hope they do, and I hope the Steelers' punter kicks it right to Hall, just so I can see Cowher go ballistic - my favorite angry coach. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

10-06-2003, 04:08 PM	#13
Daimyo College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Berkeley	If Hall can keep up near this pace he'll definately deserve it. I imagine every opponent from here out will focus pretty heavily on him from so I doubt that happens, but if he can still produce under those circumstances he's definately deserving. Every so once in a while a young DB gets a bunch of interceptions over a stretch of games and then is quiet the rest of the season as the opponents adjust... I imagine this will be a similar situation. A guy like Davis who is much more in control of his opportunities/production has a much higher shot to keep up their pace and win though, IMO. Last edited by Daimyo : 10-06-2003 at 04:09 PM.

10-06-2003, 08:49 PM	#16
SteelerFan448 High School JV Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Steeler Country	Hall can be the Chiefs MVP as a special teams player, but there is no way he'd be the NFL MVP. There are just going to be too many other 'regular' players that will get the nod over someone with special teams accomplishments. __________________ "Yoi!"-Myron Cope

10-06-2003, 03:14 PM	#3
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	I can't imagine a special teams guy being MVP. Is he really more valuable to that team than Priest?

10-06-2003, 03:16 PM	#4
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	Priest is excellent, but I look at it like this: Hall puts them in great field position. He cuts the field in half. It makes it a lot easier for Priest. And I agree with CT. If Davis gets 1800 yards and the Panthers win the divsion, he'll have earned it. But if it's all in the air, and Hall is in double digits for TD's, I think he should AT LEAST get consideration.

10-06-2003, 03:32 PM	#8
DeToxRox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Michigan	yeah, the desmond howard superbowl MVP is what really had me thinking about this question. It could be a very interesting debate down the line.

10-06-2003, 03:42 PM	#9
Vegas Vic Checkraising Tourists Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cocoa Beach, FL	I'm not sure about real life, but he'd definitely be the MVP in FOF.

10-06-2003, 03:46 PM	#10
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Yep, he'd get my vote. He changes the entire game for the teams playing against him. He has some problems getting there though: 1) He won't be kicked to anymore. Maybe a drunk coach will say "what the hell, kick it to the little bugger" and he'll get a couple of returns. . . but more likely they'll just boot the ball out of bounds, take the 10 less yards on the punt and go from there. The Chiefs will see an endless array of squib kicks, high/short kicks and punts. It will help the Chiefs out with field position, but it will kill Dante's MVP hopes. As a special teams guy, you need numbers. Without those 10-12 TD's you speak of, he won't get it. Having imperical data showing how he helps the Chiefs field position won't be enough. 2) The missed calls on the play yesterday will end up hurting him. How? The officials will be forced to start looking at the blocking harder. As we all know, blocks in the back occur all the time. The NFL isn't the NBA. It'll look closer at the Chiefs blocking after they see the clips Denver will send them. More scrutiny=more clip calls and less long returns. TroyF

10-06-2003, 08:55 PM	#17
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	For all those jumping on the Chiefs' bandwagon or thinking they have the SB locked up - remember 1995 and 1997.

10-06-2003, 08:58 PM	#18
Celeval Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Cary, NC, USA	The other thing to consider is kickoffs - punts can be angled out of bounds pretty easily, but a kickoff out of bounds is what; the ball at the 40 yard line? Is that the football equivalent to intentionally walking Barry Bonds every at-bat, even with the bases loaded? If Dante Hall gets 10 returns for TDs, he's the MVP barring record-setting performances elsewhere. Kevin

10-06-2003, 10:13 PM	#20
the_meanstrosity College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2002	TroyF, "The missed calls on the play yesterday will end up hurting him. How? The officials will be forced to start looking at the blocking harder. As we all know, blocks in the back occur all the time. The NFL isn't the NBA. It'll look closer at the Chiefs blocking after they see the clips Denver will send them. More scrutiny=more clip calls and less long returns." Are you still going at it? That's the most absurd statement I've ever seen. So will the officials also be watching Denver now? After all, they did catch the holding penalties (two of them on one play) on Denver's kick return which was called back. The officials are watching every play. And to think they are going to key up on KC's unit because a bunch of Broncos fans are whining about it is wishful thinking at most and at worst some sort of demented nightmare caused from the Denver altitude. As for Dante Hall continuing to find the end zone, I don't think anyone is counting on it. He's had an impressive run, but there's a reason why 4 return TD's is the record in the NFL. It's not easy to do. KC needs to get their offense back on track and hope Hall and the other special teamers can provide them with good field position.

10-06-2003, 10:42 PM	#21
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Look guys. . . get pissed all you want. If you don't think the NFL will be embarrased by not one, but two missed clip calls on a single play, you are the ones smoking something. I explained the Broncos "chop block" supposed breaking of the rules in another thread. They were fined repeatedly when the rules were first changed. After they learned the new rules, the fines stopped. Why is that? It's because they aren't breaking the rules anymore. They are stretching them, but they aren't breaking them. If you have your Tivo, replay the game and watch the blocking scheme of the Broncos. Tell me where the illegal ones were. I can go to the exact time and play, as I have TIVO as well. I just looked at the 65 yard TD run. . . there wasn't one low block on the entire play. It was a simple off tackle play with evey Bronco lineman putting a hat on a Chief. For kicks, I just went throug 7 runs and didn't see anything close to illegal. Just show me the play, I'll look at it and comment on it. Lastly, I'm not whining about the blown call. It was a blown call, two of em to be exact. Denver blew it by kicking it to him in the first place. They challenged fate all game and got what they deserved. I haven't said otherwise in a single thread. The officials will be watching the clip calls closer, just wait and see. As for keeping the ball away from Dante on kickoffs, look for really high short kicks. Moon balls that come down between the 35 and 25. More than likely, the KC upmen will be calling fair catches on them. TroyF

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