California just outdid itself

[MrBug708]

They gave "Undocument Immigrants" the right to get drivers licenses. The bill passed today and Davis vowed to sign it


Anyone who voted for Davis, thanks for screwing California up....

[DeToxRox]

He was just trying to help out Dominos.

[vtbub]

ET drive home

[clintl]

I am not all that happy with how it affects the rest of us, but there are legitimate arguments for doing this. Undocumented immigrants drive anyway without licenses, and can't get car insurance. I would prefer them to have licenses and insurance if they going to be driving.

[Buccaneer]

I would prefer them to have licenses and insurance if they going to be driving.

And what fantasy do you believe in that they will be insured?

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by clintl
I am not all that happy with how it affects the rest of us, but there are legitimate arguments for doing this. Undocumented immigrants drive anyway without licenses, and can't get car insurance. I would prefer them to have licenses and insurance if they going to be driving.

Rather than aiding illegal behavior, I would hope that my home state enforce it's pre-existing laws.

That being said, I don't see myself living here for much longer, as our state caters to the LCD far too often.

[clintl]

Originally posted by Buccaneer
And what fantasy do you believe in that they will be insured?

Chances will be better than they are now, since they can't legally buy it now. As I said, I don't think like everything about this (particularly the extra costs for license renewals), but it's not all bad, either.

[Ksyrup]

Apparently, some of you have never been to Miami. Or worse yet, driven in Miami. Even the legal immigrants there don't bother with insurance. I think the stat is that at least 50% of South Florida is uninsured. And I'm sure in certain areas, that percentage goes way up.

Giving these people driver's licenses simply gives the government something to take away when they get in trouble. Otherwise, it doesn't amount to jack squat. Although, you should be on the look-out for Davis' "anyone with a driver's license can vote in the recall" bill that he will attempt to sneak through next week.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by clintl
Chances will be better than they are now, since they can't legally buy it now. As I said, I don't think like everything about this (particularly the extra costs for license renewals), but it's not all bad, either.

Why are illegal residents of the country allowed to use public works?

[MrBug708]

You'd think when they apply for licenses, they'd deport them, but we'll probably give them social security and lower their taxes

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by MrBug708
You'd think when they apply for licenses, they'd deport them, but we'll probably give them social security and lower their taxes

Our state is screwed, MrBug...

[MrBug708]

Dola

Might as well be since Davis raised the vehicle registration to go along with the gas hike. Insurance is gonna shoot up now too

[MrBug708]

Rex, when my dad came home from work he said

"we need to move out of this hellhole"

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by MrBug708
Rex, when my dad came home from work he said

"we need to move out of this hellhole"

Writing is on the wall...and it's really a shame because it's a beautiful state.

BTW, what are the repubs doing letting something like this pass?!@?!?

[JPhillips]

rexall: The Hispanic vote will be the key in 2008. They are the fastest growing demographic in the country. As a group they tend to lean left on gov and money issues and right on social issues. If the Dems lock them up like the black vote the Repubs will be out of the White House for a long time. Its really the only voting block that can make a big diffierence in the balance of power over the next twenty years.

In short, don't expect anything dealing with immigration or Central/South American citizenship issues from the leaders of the Repub party.

[Buccaneer]

Edit: Actually there were some surprises coming from 2002:

In Florida, Gov. Jeb Bush has taken strong measures to crack down on illegal immigration. In the last year, Florida has tightened measures to prevent the issuance of driver’s licenses to illegal aliens and entered into a first-of-its-kind law enforcement cooperation agreement with federal immigration authorities. In addition to strong support among Cuban Americans-which Republicans generally enjoy-Bush received the support of 51 percent of “other” Hispanic voters in the state, which is highly unusual for a Republican.

In Texas, Gov. Rick Perry garnered about one-third of the state’s Hispanic vote, in spite of his opposition to granting driver’s licenses to illegal aliens. Perry also faced a Hispanic challenger.

[CAsterling]

Maybe they are using the INS ploy in regard to illegal immigrants - come and register with us so we know who you are and then we can deport you.

At least I hope they use it for that purpose.

Its sad that when so many qualified professionals want to live and work in this country, but because it takes years to get here legally they are put off from attempting the process, yet illegal immigrants are seemingly welcomed.

Its just dumb.....oh well as it looks like I will be going home in 3 months, as my work permit renewal is being delayed due to the new security checking, maybe I should just stay illegally and use your tax money to my benefit !!!!

[JPhillips]

Buc: Not true. According to US News from 9/8/03:

Certainly, the Democrats start out with a significant advantage. Al Gore got 62 percent of the Hispanic vote in 2000, and a recent CBS-New York Times poll revealed that Hispanics felt by almost 2 to 1 that the Democratic Party comes closer to representing their values. Democrats have benefited from the perception among some Hispanics that Republicans are anti-immigrant.

For the whole story:Hispanic Vote Story

Bush did better with Hispanics than any recent Repub has, but they still tend to vote Dem. (except Cubans, who trend Repub) This isn't to say that Dems are better or what have you. I think we've had that argument enough. This is a fact. Rove and Bush see it clearly. They know that their dream of a long term Repub majority may hinge on Hispanics. That's why you're likely to see a lot of pandering from both sides of the aisle.

[JPhillips]

CASterling: I really doubt that this is an INS plot. The Hispanic members of the leg Davis ad Bustamante would all have to be a part of it. I don't think any of them would chose the INS over the Cali Hispanic vote.

Don't blame the immigrants as much as the companies that give them work. Without jobs most of the illegals from Central and South America wouldn't take the risk. They come because companies will pay them. Illegal immigration can't be stopped at the border. If we want to be serious we have to target the employers.

Buc: YOU CHANGED YOUR POST!!! Well mine still sort of makes sense, but of course you aren't wrong on what you now have posted.

[rexallllsc]

Originally posted by CAsterling

Its sad that when so many qualified professionals want to live and work in this country, but because it takes years to get here legally they are put off from attempting the process, yet illegal immigrants are seemingly welcomed.

Pretty much sums it up right there.

[Subby]

In a similar story, Virginia granted the right to pot farmers to cross market to the customer lists of bong makers...

[Primal]

Originally posted by JPhillips
rexall: The Hispanic vote will be the key in 2008.

They make up about 13% of the population. Of that 13% only about 5% vote.

So by targeting the Hispanics with outrages bill like this one they are offending the other 87% of the citizens.

Now illegals can vote. They have more rights then I do and I play a TON more taxes. Its really pretty sad.

I wish McClintock would get voted in but he stands no chance. As long as its not “Communist” Curz Bustemonte I’ll be happy.

[Primal]

Plus I wouldn’t be surprised if other states started voiding our driver’s licenses. I would if I was on another states senate. Why would you allow potential terrorist in your state? This is only a politcal scheme to get Joe "Gumby" Davis and “Communist” Cruz future votes?

The democrats have officially ruined California.

With the drivers license bill passing Oslama (sp) himself can walk up to the DMV and request a license that looks no different then anyone else’s.

Sorry but it feels good to vent.

[MrBug708]

Did you know Bustemonte was part of a radical group that wants the SW liberated back to Mexico?

Arnold posed for Gay Porn. Fritz, I'm sure that's valuable these days.

[kcchief19]

The secret reason a lot of people support the driver's license bill is that it also makes it easier/possible for undocumented aliens to open bank accounts that make it easier for them to send money back across the border. Mexican groups have been pushing for the legislation behind the scenes.

I'll admit I'm not crazy about undocumented aliens, and I agree that there are some jobs done by aliens that would be done by citizens. But there is a certain level of hypocrisy in this debate in that a lot of people like to bash undocument aliens, but they don't want to pay $5 for a bag of grapes or $2 for an orange.

And there's not much chance of somebody named Osama getting a DL. Julio, sure. But not Osama.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by Primal
Plus I wouldn’t be surprised if other states started voiding our driver’s licenses. I would if I was on another states senate.

No legal ground for this, thanks to Article IV, Section I of the United States Constitution. The 'full faith and credit' clause basically says "Look, states, if one of you grants a certain legal status to one of your citizens, the rest of you are obligated to recognize that legal status, and accord it the full faith and credit which it is due."

Meaning a marriage valid in Nevada must be recognized in Massachusetts...and vice versa.

Meaning that a driver's license valid in California must be recognized in, say, New Jersey. Now, the states do have the right to limit the period of validity. If Joe Schmoe is taking up residence in a new state, he or she is required to obtain the documentation of his new state, including a driver's license. If he's passing through, the license of his state of origin must be recognized in the several States through which he may pass.

The other States' hands are tied, effectively. The other problem arises when forged documents are used to obtain the license in the first place - if you're unable to distinguish between natural citzens and illegal residents in the first place, if the illegal changes his state of origin, how are you going to catch that?

I don't agree with this law, but I'm not sure, practically speaking, how much impact it's going to have, other than to lend the illegal residents a further degree of legitimacy, legally speaking.

[thesloppy]

Originally posted by Primal
With the drivers license bill passing Oslama (sp) himself can walk up to the DMV and request a license that looks no different then anyone else’s.

Sorry but it feels good to vent.

Riiiiight, because the lack of a driver's license was totally keeping the immigrants and terrorists out of California in the first place, and the last thing we'd want is at least a valid picture and possible place of residence on file.

[Primal]

Originally posted by thesloppy
Riiiiight, because the lack of a driver's license was totally keeping the immigrants and terrorists out of California in the first place

Its not keeping them out but this is opening the flood gates.

Originally posted by thesloppy
, and the last thing we'd want is at least a valid picture and possible place of residence on file.

According to the bill its illegal to use any of the information and finger prints for ANY other reason. So if Jose decieds to rob me we cannot use the finger prints the DMV's acquired to see if there is a match. But in my case because I'm a citizan they can.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Primal
Now illegals can vote. They have more rights then I do and I pay a TON more taxes. Its really pretty sad.

Were you high when you wrote this? Just wondering.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Were you high when you wrote this? Just wondering.

Let’s look through some logic here.

What is required to vote?

1) A Drivers License
2) Check a piece of paper that says you’re a citizen

The government cannot check the driver’s licenses records.

Their drivers licenses look EXACTLY like everyone else’s. They show up, say their legal, and vote.

Or maybe I’m just naïve for thinking an Illegal alien will break the law.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally posted by Primal
Let’s look through some logic here.

What is required to vote?

1) A Drivers License
2) Check a piece of paper that says you’re a citizen

The government cannot check the driver’s licenses records.

Their drivers licenses look EXACTLY like everyone else’s. They show up, say their legal, and vote.

Or maybe I’m just naïve for thinking an Illegal alien will break the law.

Why can't the county registrar check drivers license records before issuing a voter ID card and adding an illegal alien to the books as a registered voter?

I call bullshit... but, then again, this is California, and I've seen a lot of f*cked up crap come out of Sacramento since I've been here.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Primal
Let’s look through some logic here.

What is required to vote?

1) A Drivers License
2) Check a piece of paper that says you’re a citizen

The government cannot check the driver’s licenses records.

Their drivers licenses look EXACTLY like everyone else’s. They show up, say their legal, and vote.

Or maybe I’m just naïve for thinking an Illegal alien will break the law.

And that constitutes having more rights than you how?

[thesloppy]

Originally posted by Primal
According to the bill its illegal to use any of the information and finger prints for ANY other reason. So if Jose decieds to rob me we cannot use the finger prints the DMV's acquired to see if there is a match. But in my case because I'm a citizan they can.

The bill only addresses the use of thumbprints, not any other information such as pictures or addresses, and I would imagine that a citizen's rights regarding thumbprints are similar.

Additionally, all of the legalese in the bill that talks about restricting access to the thumbprint is followed by this statement:

(c) Nothing in subdivision (b) shall prohibit the authority of the
department to authenticate an individual biometric identifier in a
civil case pursuant to a court ordered subpoena or summons or upon
the request of a law enforcement official pursuant to a warrant
issued by a court in relation to an ongoing criminal investigation.
The biometric identifier shall not be used for a purpose other than
that specified in the court order or subpoena. In any case, the
biometric identifier shall not be transferred, electronically or
otherwise, by the department, but may be authenticated by the
department.

You can read the entire bill here

I can completely understand people's objections to the increases in costs and beuracracy caused by this bill, but I don't understand how access to a license will affect the flow of immigrants one way or the other, and likewise, I'm baffled by the thought that identifying and insuring even a miniscule portion of immigrants is a bad thing.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
And that constitutes having more rights than you how?

No where in that statement did I say that was the cause of more rights. It just tops it all off.

If I went to Brazil or Mexico and asked for free child care and an education they would laugh me out of the country.

However, this is happening here. If it worked both ways I'd understand.

The most frustrating thing is hearing an immigrant saying they are owed these rights.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Primal
If I went to Brazil or Mexico and asked for free child care and an education they would laugh me out of the country.

Well, if you were willing to go to Mexico or Brazil and work 12 hour days for $1 an hour, maybe I'd understand the source of your frustration.

As of now, not seein' it.

[thesloppy]

Originally posted by Primal
Let’s look through some logic here.

What is required to vote?

1) A Drivers License
2) Check a piece of paper that says you’re a citizen

The government cannot check the driver’s licenses records.

Their drivers licenses look EXACTLY like everyone else’s. They show up, say their legal, and vote.

Or maybe I’m just naïve for thinking an Illegal alien will break the law.

dola,

I'm certainly a cynic, but I figure if a groups of people getting paid less than minimum wage to do work that I wouldn't touch can rise up as a united entity, enact a vast conspiracy to fake their citizenship, and vote through legislation and leaders to help their cause, more power to them.

If 60% of legal citizens can't be bothered to vote, but the great illegal immmigrant monster turns out in full force to guarantee themselves better living conditions, who's to blame?

[Primal]

Originally posted by thesloppy
The bill only addresses the use of thumbprints, not any other information such as pictures or addresses, and I would imagine that a citizen's rights regarding thumbprints are similar.

The biometric identifier shall not be used for a purpose other than that specified in the court order or subpoena.

So they cannot use the information unless they get a cort order.

I'm sure every time someone commits a crime they will subpoena ALL of the DMV records to run matches.

If I leave a finger print they can run it. If illegals do they have a bunch of red tape before they can run it.

[Primal]

Originally posted by thesloppy
I'm certainly a cynic, but I figure if a groups of people getting paid less than minimum wage to do work that I wouldn't touch can rise up as a united entity, enact a vast conspiracy to fake their citizenship, and vote through legislation and leaders to help their cause, more power to them.

It’s not that people won’t touch the work it’s that they cannot compete with slave labor.

If you hired someone to paint your house and one contractor (following the law and pays his employees & their taxes) bids $100 and one contracts (who hires illegals) bids $50 (because he doesn't have the overhead) who are you going to pick.

This is the way it’s worked. I know plenty of people who would love to have jobs but cannot compete because they have to pay taxes.

There are over 2.5 million illegals in California. Of that over $2 Billion is not paid in income taxes because of "under the table" payments.

I cannot imagine the price tag for other benefits they are getting.

No wonder the state is $38B in debt.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Franklinnoble
Why can't the county registrar check drivers license records before issuing a voter ID card and adding an illegal alien to the books as a registered voter?

You can sign up days before an election. There is no time to check records and even if they could they would need a court subpoena.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Primal
If you hired someone to paint your house and one contractor (following the law and pays his employees & their taxes) bids $100 and one contracts (who hires illegals) bids $50 (because he doesn't have the overhead) who are you going to pick.

If you're that against illegals, I'd hope you would pick the first guy. Otherwise, you're a giant hypocrite.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
If you're that against illegals, I'd hope you would pick the first guy. Otherwise, you're a giant hypocrite.

This is not a question that I would pose to myself. It’s a question to everyone else and just an example on how they hurt the economy.

[Butter]

Who's at fault then? Other Californians, it sounds to me... that's only if you buy your theory, which I really don't.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Who's at fault then? Other Californians, it sounds to me... that's only if you buy your theory, which I really don't.

You think its ok to not pay taxes?

I'll run that by the IRS and see if they'll let me off this next year.

[Butter]

What I get out of what you're saying is: blame the illegals for taking all the jobs.

Why blame them? Blame the folks who are giving them the jobs. That's the problem with some business owners: they just want to make the most profit possible without consideration for things such as "law". How can you seriously blame illegal immigrants for taking jobs that they're offered? If I lived in Mexico, I'd be in the exact same boat. Mexico sucks. I've been there. Don't wanna go back.

[thesloppy]

Originally posted by Primal
So they cannot use the information unless they get a cort order.

I'm sure every time someone commits a crime they will subpoena ALL of the DMV records to run matches.

If I leave a finger print they can run it. If illegals do they have a bunch of red tape before they can run it.

Riiiiiight, because the Police have a super-fingerprint-sniffer that can tell them whether a fingerprint belongs to an immigrant or a citizen before they run it. If it were true that they could run your fingerprints through DMV before this bill, then passing this bill actually prevent them from doing so, since the possibility of your prints belonging to an immigrant would make the subsequent search illegal.

If they run your fingerprints, it will be through a criminal database, and not through the DMV, and they would do exactly the same for an immigrant which has absolutely no relation to this bill, the DMV database is completley independent, as mandated by the bill.

Even in the worst case scenario of you being robbed by an immigrant, you're no worse off after the passage of the bill then you were before, so exactly what is the relevancy of your argument? If you get run-over by an immigrant, wouldn't you prefer that you' at least have a chance to get a license number?

[Primal]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
If I lived in Mexico, I'd be in the exact same boat. Mexico sucks. I've been there. Don't wanna go back.

I have no problem with them coming over legally. If they think Mexico sucks obey the law and immigrate here correctly.

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Why blame them? Blame the folks who are giving them the jobs. That's the problem with some business owners: they just want to make the most profit possible without consideration for things such as "law".

I completely agree with you. But instead of the Government making legislation to make it easier for illegals to work they should discourage it. Pass laws that won’t allow government contractors to hire illegals. There are plenty of ways to handle this problem, I feel very strongly (if you can’t tell) that the government handling this wrong. They feel their owed once they are in the US. I think that attitude really gets at me at times. I work my ass off to raise a family.

Until just last month it was illegal to arrest aliens in public places. What a joke.

I’m report businesses that hire illegals on a regular basis. It’s humorous but really quite sad when the INS tells you “Illegals aren’t our problem, that’s not our job”.

[Butter]

Originally posted by Primal
They feel their owed once they are in the US. I think that attitude really gets at me at times. I work my ass off to raise a family.

Your generalizations get me, too. I bet the vast majority of illegal immigrants are working hard to try and raise their own families. I understand your frustration, but I don't think you should assume that most immigrants feel they are owed anything when they're here. Most are glad to even be here and escape the conditions they previously worked under (which is sad, because I'm sure their conditions here aren't so hot).

But there are always the assholes who try and get whatever free stuff they can because they feel they are entitled. Don't let that cloud your view of the hard-working folks who just want to get their family a little further ahead.

[Primal]

Originally posted by thesloppy
Even in the worst case scenario of you being robbed by an immigrant, you're no worse off after the passage of the bill then you were before, so exactly what is the relevancy of your argument?

The argument is the government is not protecting US citizens. Instead they are passing legislation that acts in their favor. For example Joe "Gumby" Davis vetoed this bill twice before, now because he's trying to scrape a few votes together; he's going to sign the bill.

In stead of making it easier for illegals, pass legislation that will make it harder to come here illegally.

I more then welcome them, but I’m sick of all the free rides. Come here but come here right.

[Primal]

Originally posted by Butter_of_69
Your generalizations get me, too. I bet the vast majority of illegal immigrants are working hard to try and raise their own families. I understand your frustration, but I don't think you should assume that most immigrants feel they are owed anything when they're here. Most are glad to even be here and escape the conditions they previously worked under (which is sad, because I'm sure their conditions here aren't so hot).

But there are always the assholes who try and get whatever free stuff they can because they feel they are entitled. Don't let that cloud your view of the hard-working folks who just want to get their family a little further ahead.

I agree I am over generalizing. Maybe I've ran into too many people that take advantage of the system but its rubbing me the wrong way.

It’s sad when my wife is discriminated against at work because she is one of the few legal workers.

The fact is there are billions of unpaid taxes because of them. Instead of being a cause of the problems they should get their citizenship and be a part of the solution.

[thesloppy]

Originally posted by Primal
In stead of making it easier for illegals, pass legislation that will make it harder to come here illegally.

Well, I think the problem resides in the fact that they are coming, whether we want them or not, and whether we want to admit it or not, we are dependant on them as workers. The only realistic way to slow the flow of illegal aliens into California is to make it easier to emigrate legally, which opens a whole different can of worms.