It's Official...Tim Howard joins Man U.

[WussGawd]

link

[Bee]

who's Tim Howard?

[ice4277]

He was the Metrostars' goalie.

[VPI97]

What are the Metrostars?

[Darkiller]

Man U has some issues with Fabien Barthez altough Sir Alex Fergusson quickly downplayed rumors that had him fire the french keeper...

Look for Barthez to be the starter on opening day

[QuikSand]

What's a goalie?

[ice4277]

Originally posted by QuikSand
What's a goalie?

Sorry, goalKEEPER

[WussGawd]

Originally posted by Darkiller
Man U has some issues with Fabien Barthez altough Sir Alex Fergusson quickly downplayed rumors that had him fire the french keeper...

Look for Barthez to be the starter on opening day

This may be true in the short term, but there has to be a reason Man U paid the highest transfer fee in the history of the MLS to pick up Timmy, and it wasn't for him to ride the pine long-term behind Barthez (whom Ferguson is already unhappy with, from what I understand).

[Darkiller]

LOL no way,
the highstest transfer fee in the MLB is nothing compared to European soccer fees.
If you follow football, you know that there is no way a World Cup Champion goalkeeper (moreover France's national team starter) will be replaced by an MLS "star"...

it's like saying the top NFL Europe safety, with the highest FA contract of any NFL europe players, will come to the NFL and push the starting Safety of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers for his job.

[MIJB#19]

Sorry Dark, I disagree there.

I think Fabien Barthez is the most overrated goalkeeper in European football. Sure, he won so much, but was it really his achievement, he even struggled with Jaap Stam in front of him?
Howard has been hot in the MLS for some years now and I think it is fair to say the MLS has reached the level of an above average European league, like Rumania, Austria or Poland.

Besides, I'd love to see that Tampa Bay Bucs story.
With Dexter Jackson gone to Arizona, Than Merrill could have a shot at it...

[condors]

Barthez was riding the pine at the end of last season and i don't think he will be with manutd when the season starts, with carrol heading to birmingham i see ricardo and howard looking to where the #1 shirt with howard getting the nod. And in case nobody noticed 2 americans already are #1 keepers in the premier league and tim howard is considered the 2nd best us keeper already.

mls players can/have done well in europe espcially at the keeper postion

[Darkiller]

Barthez is overated now. I agree.

Back then between the '98 Worldcup and the '00 European championship he was the #1 goalkeeper in the world.

But to see him being unseated by Howard, I doubt it very much.
let's wait and see ;-)

as far the value of the MLS, I do agree with you MIJB, it is not bullshit anymore but here we are talking about replacing plain and simple one of the most popular goalies in the world...

[Ajaxab]

Going by CM rules, I'm puzzled about this transfer. Shouldn't Howard have to get a work permit in order to play? Doesn't a player have to play in 75% of his team's games for this work permit to be renewed at some point? Getting Howard would suggest that Barthez will be on his way out in the not so distant future if the Red Devils want Howard's permit renewed.

[MIJB#19]

Originally posted by Darkiller
as far the value of the MLS, I do agree with you MIJB, it is not bullshit anymore but here we are talking about replacing plain and simple one of the most popular goalies in the world...

Barthez has never been seen as the world's #1 over here in the NLs. Being French might help there a lot too though...
It could be because he never beat our national team on pens, unlike the famous Francesco Toldo, Taffarel and Peter Schmeichel did. Lama's heroics have been forgotten due to the black vs. white issue at Euro'96.

Concidering the work permit, Man Utd signed Raymond van der Gouw (Dutch goalkeeper) about 8 years ago. Van der Gouw has never been on the national team.
Having that in mind, I'm really puzzled how it works IRL, does the rule only apply to those coming from unproven countries? (Chances are the MLS would not be considered a proven league to English football standards.)

[airulf]

Anyone have some information on another US goalie, "Matt Jordan"? He is competing to be the first choice in the upcomming season for my local team Odense Boldklub.

[SirFozzie]

Normally, to sign a player from a country outside the European Union would require a work permit (due to EU laws, you cannot keep a person from working due to the fact he comes from another EU nation)

At first, Howard needed a Work Permit because he comes from the US, a country outside of the EU (of course)

They did a little research, and found that his mother was born in Hungary, and that qualified him for a Hungarian passport, which helped his appeal for the Work Permit.

He was granted that work permit, and signed a four year deal with ManYoo. Now, to keep the work permit, he'd have to play in 3/4's of ManYoo's games (that he is healthy for). However, I think Hungary will be part of the EU by then, so he will no longer need a work permit.

IF he becomes a starter for ManYoo, United will have made an absolute steal of a deal. For approximately 2 million pounds up front and an extra 1.2-1.5 million pounds when he becomes a regular goalie for them, they will have a goalie good enough for ManYoo's standards. If in a couple years he's still #2 or #3, watch him get loaned back to MLS

Foz

[Katon]

Originally posted by MIJB#19
Barthez has never been seen as the world's #1 over here in the NLs. Being French might help there a lot too though...
It could be because he never beat our national team on pens, unlike the famous Francesco Toldo, Taffarel and Peter Schmeichel did. Lama's heroics have been forgotten due to the black vs. white issue at Euro'96.

Concidering the work permit, Man Utd signed Raymond van der Gouw (Dutch goalkeeper) about 8 years ago. Van der Gouw has never been on the national team.
Having that in mind, I'm really puzzled how it works IRL, does the rule only apply to those coming from unproven countries? (Chances are the MLS would not be considered a proven league to English football standards.)

A work permit is only necessary for people from non-EU nations. Howard got around this, from what I've heard, because his wife's a Hungarian citizen.

Barthez is somewhat overrated. A four-year-old could have kept clean sheets behind the French defence from the period Darkiller is citing. When United's defence went AWOL in 2002, Barthez was much less impressive.

[SirFozzie]

Originally posted by airulf
Anyone have some information on another US goalie, "Matt Jordan"? He is competing to be the first choice in the upcomming season for my local team Odense Boldklub.

Here's what I remember for Matt, aided by a google search:

Starting goalie for the Dallas Burn from 99-2002

103 games for the Burn, mostly in regular MLS play.

Considered a bit weak in the air, and sometimes a bit quick to come off his line, but a solid choice.

[Critch]

The work permit only applies to players coming into the UK from outside the European Union, plus a few other areas/countries that have agreements like Scandanavia and a couple of eastern European countries (I think).

Howard's permit was turned down first time, and Man Utd had to appeal to get it through. They shouldn't have any problems, there's some clause about a player being of exceptional potential that'll get them round the problems. A few years ago Spurs tried to sign South African Quintin Fortune but were turned down for a work permit, a couple of weeks later Man Utd signed Fortune and got a permit with no problem. If any club is going to know how to twist the rules to get their player, it'll be Man Utd.

At the moment, Man Utd's manager Ferguson is going on about Howard's youth, so I wouldn't expect Howard to be Man Utd's first choice very quickly. I'd be betting that they'll use him in advertizing campaigns to try and sell Man Utd tops to any soccer loving youths over here. If Barthez did go (and he's not been having a great time at Man Utd) I'd expect Ricardo to be ahead of Howard in the chances of being the new keeper. Ricardo after all is only 23 but has already played for Spain, and is a regular in their squad, it's not like Howard is guarenteed to be ahead of him.

[airulf]

Thanks, SirFozzie


He will recieve stiff competion from last seasons, second string goalie, though.

Also, there will be a lot of pressure, taking over for the leagues best keeper, Karim Zaza from Morocco.

[illinifan999]

Watching DC United play the Metrostars, I saw one of United's players loft the ball over Howard who was playing out, Howard hustled back, and tipped the ball over the crossbar. Not in a million years did I think anyone coulda saved a shot like that.

[MIJB#19]

The work permit only applies to players coming into the UK from outside the European Union, plus a few other areas/countries that have agreements like Scandanavia and a couple of eastern European countries (I think).

Well, I guess that awnsers my question.

One point can be made though, over the past 5 to 10 years, the European top teams finally have learned to value goalkeepers higher then they've always been valued.
Not so long ago, a new goalkeeper wouldn't even be concidered for 1/10th the price of a backup defender...

[MIJB#19]

Originally posted by illinifan999
Watching DC United play the Metrostars, I saw one of United's players loft the ball over Howard who was playing out, Howard hustled back, and tipped the ball over the crossbar. Not in a million years did I think anyone coulda saved a shot like that.

That makes me think of a statement made by some goalkeepers:
good goalkeepers don't make saves that are "ooh"-ed and "aah"-ed by the fans, because the are in the right place in time to catch the ball then rather jump horizontally and fingertip to a corner kick.

That's the irnony of goalkeeping, be positioned well all the time and you never make a brilliant save. Goalkeepers with brilliant saves are rememberred much easier then those who never do.

[Critch]

Originally posted by MIJB#19
good goalkeepers don't make saves that are "ooh"-ed and "aah"-ed by the fans, because the are in the right place in time to catch the ball then rather jump horizontally and fingertip to a corner kick.

Based on that quote, I can see why you don't like Barthez. Never makes something look simple when he can make it look spectacular.

[condors]

In defense of Tim Howard the metrostars are currently without thier #1,#2 #4 central defenders due to injury and suspension,

the opposing team are getting way too many quality chances

[MIJB#19]

Originally posted by Critch
Based on that quote, I can see why you don't like Barthez. Never makes something look simple when he can make it look spectacular.

I'm guilty as charged...
There's not much wrong in making hings look more spectacular, I'd probably do the same.
However, I've seen too many spectacular mistakes from Barthez.
And honestly, at some point, the local sports media made it some sort of weekly item, showing Bathez blunder of the week...

BTW, I didn't (want to) attack Howard, the sentance by Illinifan just made me member the statement about bad and good positioned goalkeepers.

[Mac Howard]

Utd's problem is that they're still trying to find another Schmeichel. Peter wasn't just the best goalie in the world he also organised the defence - it was like having your defensive coordinator out on the field. They've signed a number of 'keepers since Schmeichel but they've all fallen short one way of another. That's certainly true of the current second-stringers.

Barthez is a good shot-stopper - he's very agile - but his judgement is sometimes poor particularly when facing a one-on-one situation when he often comes charging out of his area and commits himself unnecessarily instead of making the striker call the moves. He's let in some silly goals, occasionally important ones, in this way.

He doesn't play a significant role in organising the defence either. In fact he sometimes communicates badly with other defenders.

He was much better last season. He seemed to curb his enthusiasm for charging upfield and didn't make the mistakes he'd made earlier. He still isn't the 'keeper Utd want but he isn't that bad either. He makes a lot of good saves. He saves penalties. He only occasionally makes a mistake.

Howard is for the future. He's young. He's apparently very talented, communicates well and even shows promise as a defensive organisor. The cost was peanuts by Utd's standards. His games for the USA team and his youth help put him above the quality barrier that the immigration rules demand. Utd will coach him now, play him occasionally and hope that he becomes the 'keeper they've been looking for in a couple of years. If not, he'll join the other second-streamers and eventually move on elsewhere.

Typical big club attitiude; get them young, try them out, keep them if it works out, dump them if it doesn't.

[RPI-Fan]

I think they're more confident in Howard than that, Mac.

Howard, right now, has the best pure reflexes of any keeper I've seen. Time and time again he'll find a way to stop corners off of headers, or volleys from close range. But that does relate to positioning. Kahn won't dive all over the goal box, but he's the best keeper in the world.

But, Howard's talent should give him a chance to learn all of the positioning and whatnot that's necessary. Additionally, he's not a headcase, and, at least in MLS, he's been able to get on his defense. Which must be very frustrating. When Teddy Arena is your best defender, you need to make some changes...

~rpi-fan

[Mac Howard]

I'm not putting Howard down, RPI-Fan.

It's a dream move for him. He'll get the best coaching. Play for and against the best club sides in the world. If his potential is realised he'll quickly become a multi-millionaire and get the recognition which is denied him as the best 'keeper in the MLS.

The incumbant 'keeper, Barthez, doesn't quite cut it for Ferguson. If Howard has the talent right now, he'll become the number one immediately. If it takes time, then Utd have a good reputation for developing youngsters - Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane (young and second string to Ince when he arrived at OT) the Nevilles, Brown etc.

Dream move for him! Good luck to him. As a Utd fan I'll be delighted if he makes it.

[RPI-Fan]

One other thing - to the people that are saying the MLS isn't a high-enough caliber league to be a good keeper, that's just bullshit. The league he was in didn't matter (and granted, MLS is not at all a strong league)

Howard couldn't help his situation - he made the best of the situation he was in, and now it's finally paying off. As goalkeepers tend to develop later than other players, Howard's relatively young age of 24 bodes well for him.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him become the next Brad Friedel (aka one of the best keepers in the Premiership if not the world).

[WussGawd]

Originally posted by RPI-Fan
One other thing - to the people that are saying the MLS isn't a high-enough caliber league to be a good keeper, that's just bullshit. The league he was in didn't matter (and granted, MLS is not at all a strong league)

Howard couldn't help his situation - he made the best of the situation he was in, and now it's finally paying off. As goalkeepers tend to develop later than other players, Howard's relatively young age of 24 bodes well for him.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him become the next Brad Friedel (aka one of the best keepers in the Premiership if not the world).

I like Howard a lot. As someone else pointed out, he's playing with a backline in front of him that'd struggle in the A-League, and NY/NJ is still tops in the MLS. He's good, and I think he can make it. Will he be another Schmeichel...that'd be a tall order. Can he be good? I think so.

[condors]

there was a fanpoll on manutd site and tim howard got 62% of the votes to be the keeper vs bolton to start the season

[Mac Howard]

'keepers mature late. As was said earlier, it's judgement that will deterine how good you are in the end. That judgement comes with experience. Friedel is around 32 now and considered by many to be the best in the Premiership. That certainly wasn't the case only two years ago. He's only now reaching his peak.

Howard is 24 - he's at least 10 years of experience in front of him if he stays focused and fit. He's got a long time to learn and Ferguson will be patient if he feels Howard has the potential. He'll get games but I suspect that Ferguson will string them out somewhat until he's sure Howard can make it. Barthez may well respond to the challenge. There's quality there - you don't become 'keeper of the World and European Champions if you don't have talent.

One thing Howard will have to learn which I don't think he's met yet - the sort of pressure he'll get in the top games, particularly Champions League football. Many a talented player falls apart when faced with that sort of pressure and it remains to be seen how Howard handles that.

It's looking like an interesting season all around. Just waiting now for Ronaldinho to join him and then see how the new team makes out in a few weeks time. Can't wait

[aquavit]

Howard is going to be a success in Manchester. He has all the ability he just need to cope with going from being a minor sports star in the US to playing for the most popular sports team in the world. I hope he has a good head on him.

With Blackburn signing another American keeper that makes four American keepers in the Premiership. We are taking over baby!

[daedalus]

Originally posted by RPI-Fan
One other thing - to the people that are saying the MLS isn't a high-enough caliber league to be a good keeper, that's just bullshit. The league he was in didn't matter (and granted, MLS is not at all a strong league)

Howard couldn't help his situation - he made the best of the situation he was in, and now it's finally paying off. As goalkeepers tend to develop later than other players, Howard's relatively young age of 24 bodes well for him.

It wouldn't surprise me to see him become the next Brad Friedel (aka one of the best keepers in the Premiership if not the world).

Decaf, perhaps?

I haven't seen a single post in this thread that put down the MLS or Howard. I don't think it's a definite given that Howard has beaten out Barthez just by his mere presence. Barthez may be overrated depending on your point of view but it doesn't take away from the fact that the guy has been a quality keeper for a long time and did play a part on a team that won his league's title and got a fair distance into the Champion's League. I can see the situation that Mac mention where he gets spot starts until Ferguson and his teammates are comfortable with him. I haven't seen anyone doubt his physical abilities and he'll certainly be do well if he can cope with the mental demands over there, which would be nice (except WHY did it have to be Manchester?!?)

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Mac Howard
It's looking like an interesting season all around. Just waiting now for Ronaldinho to join him and then see how the new team makes out in a few weeks time. Can't wait

You must be having a field day with this offseason. The other offseason grabs (other than Ronaldinho and Howard) have looked really interesting, too.

[RPI-Fan]

Who did Blackburn sign?

[aquavit]

Originally posted by RPI-Fan
Who did Blackburn sign?

Some American keeper from a third division German club to backup Friedel.

[Critch]

His name is David Yelldell, signed him from Stuttgart Kickers earlier this week. They signed him on the same day as Lorenzo Amoruso and Brett Emerton, so he kind of got overshadowed.

[MIJB#19]

Originally posted by daedalus
I haven't seen anyone doubt his physical abilities and he'll certainly be do well if he can cope with the mental demands over there, which would be nice (except WHY did it have to be Manchester?!?)

That could be a real problem.
Some 'keeper reputations have been given a serious hit over the years at top clubs like Man Utd.

Why Manchester?
Because Arsenal doesn't need a goalkeeper?
(BTW, not so good news around Dennis Bergkamp, 'ey?)

[daedalus]

Originally posted by MIJB#19
Why Manchester?
Because Arsenal doesn't need a goalkeeper?
(BTW, not so good news around Dennis Bergkamp, 'ey?)

Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards. Meanwhile, Milito went to Real and Howard went to Manchester at very reasonable prices. It's really annoying news around Bergkamp. He should to be treated better. Show Wiltord the exit sign and leave the money for Bergkamp, darn it. (And I STILL need to watch Bergkamp play.)

I did get to see about 15 minutes of PSV in some competition call Peace Cup tonight, though. They beat Munchen on a pair of goals in the last couple of minutes. (How is 'Ooijers' pronounced?) That was cool.

[MIJB#19]

This might turn into a complete off topic discussion, though there is a little twist at the end of my post...

Originally posted by daedalus
Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards. Meanwhile, Milito went to Real and Howard went to Manchester at very reasonable prices. It's really annoying news around Bergkamp. He should to be treated better. Show Wiltord the exit sign and leave the money for Bergkamp, darn it. (And I STILL need to watch Bergkamp play.)

I hope you get to see Bergkamp someday, though If Arsenal doesn't offer a new co ntract to him, I think it's a 75% chance he will retire...
Bergkamp wants to retire at Arsenal and he's not just some striker, I think his career is still bigger then any other current Arsenal player (including Thierry Henry and comeback kid Nwankwo Kanu).
Though the way Seaman was shown the door, one can be really worried.

So I read Arsenal also suffers from "all out offense"-disease, like Barcelona and Real Madrid, good for you...

Originally posted by daedalus
I did get to see about 15 minutes of PSV in some competition call Peace Cup tonight, though. They beat Munchen on a pair of goals in the last couple of minutes. (How is 'Ooijers' pronounced?) That was cool.

Ooijer?
Check the ping Dutch turkish football transfers thread for explanation on the "ooij" part, where I explained how to pronounce Pierre van Hooijdonk's name. Or just pronounce the "o" in "fork" and add the "jer" part of "jerk", without the "d" sound in "j".
What's next, Waterreus? Vennegoor of Hesselink? (Those I have explained 1 and 2 years ago respectively at FOFC.)
Bruggink? Klaas-Jan Huntelaar?

Personally, I don't watch much of the preseason soccer games, even though there are about 1 or 2 friendlies broadcasted daily. Bayern München losing in the last minutes is always great news though, even in friendlies (except when Man Utd does it in injury time of a CL final.)

BTW, did you know the Philips Sports Vereniging (PSV, mind the Philips part) is in South Korea on a promo tour because PSV seems to be become the #1 football team in Korea, thanks to living legend Guus Hiddink (coach Korea to semi's in World Cup) and the presence of several Korean internationals?

And that brings all back to Man Utd and Howard: this move perfectly fits in the latest soccer trends of buying merchandise friendly players. The USA might be just another market for Man Utd.

[Katon]

Originally posted by daedalus
Sigh. Ya, who needs defense or goalkeepers? The team has a sieve and zero depth in the backline and the ONLY people I've heard them associated with are wingers and forwards.

They've been linked to a few defensive players - they were meant to be trying for Rustu at some point and they supposedly tried to take advantage of contract disputes to pinch John Terry and William Gallas from Chelsea before we got some money and started returning the favour. I think that Arsenal's biggest problem is that all their funds are tied up in their new stadium, so they can't afford to spend very much.

[ice4277]

As an aside about the Metrostars new goalie...

I actually got to see them play in person last night as they were playing a team from around here, the Mid-Michigan Bucks, in the U.S. Open Cup (its very odd to see an MLS team playing at your old high school's field, that's for sure). He showed pretty good command of the area, and did a good job getting to the ball off of corners. He was tested a couple times and did a pretty solid job.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by MIJB#19
I hope you get to see Bergkamp someday, though If Arsenal doesn't offer a new co ntract to him, I think it's a 75% chance he will retire...
Bergkamp wants to retire at Arsenal and he's not just some striker, I think his career is still bigger then any other current Arsenal player (including Thierry Henry and comeback kid Nwankwo Kanu).
Though the way Seaman was shown the door, one can be really worried.

Yay! Good news! Bergkamp re-upped! Woohoo!

[daedalus]

Originally posted by Katon
They've been linked to a few defensive players - they were meant to be trying for Rustu at some point and they supposedly tried to take advantage of contract disputes to pinch John Terry and William Gallas from Chelsea before we got some money and started returning the favour. I think that Arsenal's biggest problem is that all their funds are tied up in their new stadium, so they can't afford to spend very much.

Ya, I remember them being connected with Rustu this offseason and during last season but I seem to recall the problem last season being that he wanted more money than they were willing to pay for salaries so I wasn't all that optimistic this time around.

I remember seeing Arsenal being mentioned in passing when Terry and Gallas wanted their contract redone. I never really thought it would really happen since an EPL-proven defender would probably cost a fair bit more than Wenger has the cash for.

I am surprise to not see more about Mexes (even if Roux refuses) or Boumsong since they're also supposely good young French defenders as well. I know that Wenger's funds are supposed to be limited because of the stadium and I've read the figure being mentioned as 10M, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was a fair bit less with all the trouble they seem to be having. But, still, a lot of the transfer have been at really reasonable prices. Howard, Gabriel Milito and Steve Finnan were all around the 3M-range if I remember right. Even with a limited budget, something in that range should be doable, no?

[McSweeny]

he saved the final PK to give ManU the win

[SirFozzie]

Nice start by Howard

[daedalus]

Can y'all folks who saw the game say how Arsenal played?

For Manchester, it sucks that Fortune is hurt. I thought he looked really good during the US tour.

[SirFozzie]

good game, they rightfully lost one to a red, and should have had a 2nd