College Football Week 13 (Rivalry Week) discussion

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I don't have a dog in the fight, although I will admit a mild dislike for USC and a general dislike for Carroll stemming from his NFL days--but I thought the long passing TD was hilarious and totally appropriate. "You don't want me to run the clock out? Okay, how about I air it out instead?"

From what I've seen, most people seem to feel Pete was well within his rights to air it out after Neuheisel called the timeout.

Sure, Pete could've called for running plays instead or continued kneeling, but if Neuheisel didn't consider the game over, why should Pete?

Sour grapes by the UCLA fans and players IMO.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

From what I've seen, most people seem to feel Pete was well within his rights to air it out after Neuheisel called the timeout.

Sure, Pete could've called for running plays instead or continued kneeling, but if Neuheisel didn't consider the game over, why should Pete?

Sour grapes by the UCLA fans and players IMO.

Actually, most UCLA fans I have run into also consider Neuheisel more at fault for not being prepared for a full play response after calling the timeout. You probably should get to know more UCLA fans before you make generalized statements about them.

Personally, my biggest problem is still how Carroll acted after it happened, and how he encouraged his team to act, the taunting, coming out onto the field, etc.

[RainMaker]

I have no problem with Carroll calling that play after the timeout. He offered to concede on offense and Neuheisel said no.

My issue is with the taunts that happened afterwards. Should have no place in the game. But I guess they need something to boast about after having underachieved for most of this decade.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Actually, most UCLA fans I have run into also consider Neuheisel more at fault for not being prepared for a full play response after calling the timeout. You probably should get to know more UCLA fans before you make generalized statements about them.

You "blame" Neuheisel, yet at the same time you said you thought Carroll calling for the pass was classless.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You "blame" Neuheisel, yet at the same time you said you thought Carroll calling for the pass was classless.

You can be both. Carroll didn't need to bite and could have just run a few halfback dives to run out the clock.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But I guess they need something to boast about after having underachieved for most of this decade.

You really have no clue about college football do you?

Since the 2002 season, the Trojans have gone 90-12 (.882), won 2 national championships and finished in the top-4 each season except for the current one.

You will find very few other stretches of success that compare.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You can be both. Carroll didn't need to bite and could have just run a few halfback dives to run out the clock.

If Neuheisel wasn't giving up, why should Carroll? Carroll offered to end the game nice and tidy by having his QB take a knee, but Neuheisel wanted nothing to do with it. Why then risk a fumble - why not throw deep and get a TD that puts the game out of any conceivable reach?

Carroll extended an olive branch and Neuheisel poked him with it. After that, it was game on IMO.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

If Neuheisel wasn't giving up, why should Carroll? Carroll offered to end the game nice and tidy by having his QB take a knee, but Neuheisel wanted nothing to do with it. Why then risk a fumble - why not throw deep and get a TD that puts the game out of any conceivable reach?

Carroll extended an olive branch and Neuheisel poked him with it. After that, it was game on IMO.

Like I said, I don't blame Carroll at all and put no blame on him. I'm just saying that he didn't have to bite and could have kept himself above it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You "blame" Neuheisel, yet at the same time you said you thought Carroll calling for the pass was classless.

Exactly what Rainmaker said. Neuheisel taking the larger part of the blame and Carroll being classless are not mutually exclusive.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

If Neuheisel wasn't giving up, why should Carroll? Carroll offered to end the game nice and tidy by having his QB take a knee, but Neuheisel wanted nothing to do with it. Why then risk a fumble - why not throw deep and get a TD that puts the game out of any conceivable reach?

Carroll extended an olive branch and Neuheisel poked him with it. After that, it was game on IMO.

It's fairly common for coaches on the losing end exhaust what timeouts they have, and 50 seconds is more than just a play left. Neuheisel was well within his rights to call the timeout.

His mistake was not properly taking into account who Carroll is and what he does and defending against the deep pass. Most coaches would have responded to Neuheisel's timeout with a play, certainly, but it would have been a conservative play, a run up the gut, some harmless play that ensures that timeouts would need to be called to stop the clock. Most would not have thrown the deep pass, because that's a clear show up play that is actually not even the smart play for the winning team to do, since a dropped pass stops the clock and an interception into coverage is far more likely than a surehanded running back up the gut.

Carroll has long established his compete to the end mentality, though, and his willingness to run up the score, so it was stupid for Neuheisel to not account for that and protect better against the deep pass.

And once again, something you seem unwilling to comment on, my primary problem with the end of game situation was what happened after the play, not what happened on the field.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You really have no clue about college football do you?

Since the 2002 season, the Trojans have gone 90-12 (.882), won 2 national championships and finished in the top-4 each season except for the current one.

You will find very few other stretches of success that compare.

He also had superior talent to any other team in this country throughout that stretch. He also only won 1 BCS National Championship since 2002 (the AP year is a split).

That teams should have 3 or more BCS Championships over that stretch considering the immense amount of talent that was there. The team should have won it in 2005, 2007, and 2008.

Sorry, when you have more talent than every other team and don't win it all, you have underachieved.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

You really have no clue about college football do you?

Since the 2002 season, the Trojans have gone 90-12 (.882), won 2 national championships and finished in the top-4 each season except for the current one.

You will find very few other stretches of success that compare.

I agree, Rain's stretching things with what he said on the "underachieving" thing but let's not give the Trojies props they didn't entirely earn.

They in fact won just one national championship. At best you could say they won one, and won a disputed share of another.

And with the talent they had on hand, any view of the past four seasons (post-Leinart/Bush/Chow) has to be looked at as a bit of an underachievement for what they could have, maybe even should have, accomplished.

Please, it's bad enough you're a Husky fan, don't be blowing the Trojans, too, dawg.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have no problem with Carroll calling that play after the timeout. He offered to concede on offense and Neuheisel said no.

+1

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have no problem with Carroll calling that play after the timeout. He offered to concede on offense and Neuheisel said no.

+2

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He also had superior talent to any other team in this country throughout that stretch. He also only won 1 BCS National Championship since 2002 (the AP year is a split).

That teams should have 3 or more BCS Championships over that stretch considering the immense amount of talent that was there. The team should have won it in 2005, 2007, and 2008.

Sorry, when you have more talent than every other team and don't win it all, you have underachieved.

And you know he had more talent how? That's the whole problem with your statement - you are assuming something when you have no idea if it's true or not. Were the Trojans talented? No question, but how do you know they were more talented than Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, LSU, etc?

To call the recent Trojans runs "underachievement" is the height of ridiculous expectations.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Personally, my biggest problem is still how Carroll acted after it happened, and how he encouraged his team to act, the taunting, coming out onto the field, etc.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have no problem with Carroll calling that play after the timeout. He offered to concede on offense and Neuheisel said no.

My issue is with the taunts that happened afterwards. Should have no place in the game. But I guess they need something to boast about after having underachieved for most of this decade.

Would you have had a problem with UCLA intercepting the pass, running it back for a TD and then celebrating?

From my POV the UCLA players were the ones coming across the field, and either way, if you don't want the other team to score than stop them. It isn't Carroll's job to stop his offense, it's Neuheisels.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I agree, Rain's stretching things with what he said on the "underachieving" thing but let's not give the Trojies props they didn't entirely earn.

They in fact won just one national championship. At best you could say they won one, and won a disputed share of another.

I give no more credence to the BCS than I do the AP poll. Given that there is no "official" National Champion in FBS football, I have no reason to place any greater importance on who the BCS deems to be the champion vs. the AP.

They won 2 National Championships, one of them a split between them and LSU. I'm not going to worry about nitpicking over split championships.

And with the talent they had on hand, any view of the past four seasons (post-Leinart/Bush/Chow) has to be looked at as a bit of an underachievement for what they could have, maybe even should have, accomplished.

As I noted with RainMaker, trying to evaluate talent is a bit of a fool's errand on our part. There's no doubt those Trojan teams have been stacked with great players, but are they really any more stacked than Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, LSU, etc?

Look back in college football history - since the 1950's, no team has won 3 consecutive National Championships. Back to back has only happened (by my count) 8 times (Alabama twice, Oklahoma twice, Nebraska twice, Texas & USC). Only 5 times has a program won 3 titles within an 8 season span (Alabama, Nebraska, Miami, Texas, USC).

I'm having a hard time seeing the success that USC has had under Carroll being described as "underachieving".

Please, it's bad enough you're a Husky fan, don't be blowing the Trojans, too, dawg.

I've got my own issues with Carroll, but I recognize greatness regardless of where it comes from. I hate Notre Dame with a passion, but I recognize how great they've been in the past. I hate Oregon, but I recognize they've been a superior football program to the UW this decade by a large margin. I recognize the amazing run that John Wooden had with UCLA basketball.

I get why you are reluctant to embrace Carroll's greatness - they're your rivals. But from a more neutral vantage point, it's clear to me that Carroll has done an outstanding job.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

It's fairly common for coaches on the losing end exhaust what timeouts they have, and 50 seconds is more than just a play left. Neuheisel was well within his rights to call the timeout.

Sure he was. Neuheisel had a choice - accept the defeat by not using his timeouts, or use them on the slim chance that his team could cover 80+ yards for a TD, convert an onside kick and then score another TD with no timeouts left with maybe 30 seconds total to do so. He chose to compete to the end, so Carroll responded in kind.

His mistake was not properly taking into account who Carroll is and what he does and defending against the deep pass. Most coaches would have responded to Neuheisel's timeout with a play, certainly, but it would have been a conservative play, a run up the gut, some harmless play that ensures that timeouts would need to be called to stop the clock. Most would not have thrown the deep pass, because that's a clear show up play that is actually not even the smart play for the winning team to do, since a dropped pass stops the clock and an interception into coverage is far more likely than a surehanded running back up the gut.

This is where you lose me. If Neuheisel still thinks the game is within reach and acts accordingly, why is it poor sportsmanship for Carroll to do the same? Neuheisel thought he still had a shot in the game, so why is it bad for Carroll to call a play that could result in putting the game out of reach?

If you want to argue the play call was risky, I agree. But I fail to see how it was poor sportsmanship under the circumstances.

Carroll has long established his compete to the end mentality, though, and his willingness to run up the score, so it was stupid for Neuheisel to not account for that and protect better against the deep pass.

Agree with the first part, disagree strongly with the 2nd part, agree with the 3rd part.

Neuheisel should've known that he'd provoke Carroll, and his team should've been much better prepared for the play-action pass.

Carroll running up the score? Hardly. As EF27 has shown, that's a dubious assertion. USC's actions under Carroll pale in comparison to what has happened at other football powers.

And once again, something you seem unwilling to comment on, my primary problem with the end of game situation was what happened after the play, not what happened on the field.

I haven't commented because I'm not disputing that part - I'm disputing the part where you claim Carroll lacks class for having called that pass play in that situation.

I think both coaches are at fault for what happened after the TD pass - Carroll for allowing his players to taunt, Neuheisel for not having his players under better control to ignore the taunting rather than trying to escalate things.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I have no problem with Carroll calling that play after the timeout. He offered to concede on offense and Neuheisel said no.

+3

[MrBug708]

I love that this conversation is still going on. I still dont understand why there is such a big deal about what Rick did in calling the timeouts. Matt Barkley is an idiot for also saying that UCLA "disrespected" USC in calling the timeouts? Is he stupid?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Lathum

From my POV the UCLA players were the ones coming across the field, and either way, if you don't want the other team to score than stop them. It isn't Carroll's job to stop his offense, it's Neuheisels.

UCLA escalated the situation, but USC should have had a flag thrown for having their players on the field celebrating. The refs did a poor job in handling it, UCLA made it worse

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

DOLA - Rick caused this. Let's see CR and Bug on here trying to defend this one. Your coach is a classless douchebag.

Going back to this, how was Rick a classless douche? I'm curious to hear the reasons.

[bhlloy]

I guess I could probably take that back, although calling a TO in that situation was probably the wrong decision and a cheap message to send IMO. Seems to me the chances of somebody getting seriously injured in the resulting 4-5 plays are vastly superior to the chances of UCLA ever scoring 2 TD's in the same # of plays.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I guess I could probably take that back, although calling a TO in that situation was probably the wrong decision and a cheap message to send IMO. Seems to me the chances of somebody getting seriously injured in the resulting 4-5 plays are vastly superior to the chances of UCLA ever scoring 2 TD's in the same # of plays.

Fair enough. Pete Carroll has had a tendency to call TO's when the game is well in hand, just wanted to know if you thought he was a douche as well. I figured since those games were losses and Pete was displaying his poor sportsmanship, the Trojan fans would suddenly have selective memory

[BishopMVP]

As a neutral fan, I fall strongly into the camp where the on-field stuff was entirely legitimate, both coaches and teams were classless douchebags for the post-TD incident, and it's hilarious for either fanbase to paint the other coach as a douchebag without their own being tarnished.

[MrBug708]

Rick was trying but failing to keep his sideline back. Can't see how he did anything wrong with that? The situation was well beyond his control at that point, unfortunately.

[RainMaker]

I actually went to a USC-UCLA game many years ago. I have to say that the fans of both teams have the highest level of douchebaggery out of any event I've been to.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I love that this conversation is still going on. I still dont understand why there is such a big deal about what Rick did in calling the timeouts. Matt Barkley is an idiot for also saying that UCLA "disrespected" USC in calling the timeouts? Is he stupid?

I don't think what he did is a big deal, just like I don't think Carroll's subsequent decision to throw long was a big deal. The one led to the other, and I have no problem with either decision. It's only continuing to be discussed because some out there are questioning why Carroll called for the pass, and some (including CR) are accusing Carroll of being classless for doing so.

Barkley's statement is stupid.

[MrBug708]

Carroll is classless in the sense that he was upset for Stanford needlessly piling on, yet doesnt mind doing it himself. Nothing more, nothing less

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Carroll is classless in the sense that he was upset for Stanford needlessly piling on, yet doesnt mind doing it himself. Nothing more, nothing less

USC is your main rival, so I guess I understand why you don't see the difference in the two situations.

First off, provide some evidence that Carroll has a history of needlessly piling on.

Second, recognize that it wasn't Carroll's intent to "pile on" against UCLA - he was going to take a knee to end the game. When Neuheisel made it clear he wasn't done trying to win the game, Carroll responded in kind.

That's a very different situation than Harbaugh going for 2 midway through the 4th quarter of a blowout just to get to the 50 point milestone.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Carroll is classless in the sense that he was upset for Stanford needlessly piling on, yet doesnt mind doing it himself. Nothing more, nothing less

That's not an issue of class, that's being hypocritical. And considering his initial inclination was to not do so, I think that's a hard sell.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Rick was trying but failing to keep his sideline back. Can't see how he did anything wrong with that? The situation was well beyond his control at that point, unfortunately.

It's happened what, 3 years in a row now? Once is an aberration, 3x a trend.

[Karlifornia]

Why does anyone really care about this, anyway? USC is going to the Holiday Bowl, and UCLA is going to an awesome new year's party on Melrose.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm having a hard time seeing the success that USC has had under Carroll being described as "underachieving".

It's because they don't like USC.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

It's because they don't like USC.

Or because they want to be contrarian.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Going back to this, how was Rick a classless douche? I'm curious to hear the reasons.

.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Rick was trying but failing to keep his sideline back. Can't see how he did anything wrong with that? The situation was well beyond his control at that point, unfortunately.

Can't you say the same thing about the USC sidelines? True they shouldn't have been taunting but it's still the same argument.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Barkley's statement is stupid.

+1

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

It's because they don't like USC.

That's not true. I actually became a mini-USC fan last year because I thought their defense was a ton of fun to watch.

I'm just saying since 2002, I can't think of a team that has had the massive amount of talent that USC has. Not only recruited talent but talent that went on to the NFL. There are 5 or 6 years in that stretch where you can easily make a case that they had more talent than any other team in the country. They've had 21 drafted players the last 2 seasons (including a lot of 1st/2nd rounders). I think it's a bit disappointing that they only won one BCS Championship in that time.

[RainMaker]

That newspaper ad is awesome.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm just saying since 2002, I can't think of a team that has had the massive amount of talent that USC has. Not only recruited talent but talent that went on to the NFL. There are 5 or 6 years in that stretch where you can easily make a case that they had more talent than any other team in the country. They've had 21 drafted players the last 2 seasons (including a lot of 1st/2nd rounders). I think it's a bit disappointing that they only won one BCS Championship in that time.

Since 2002, USC has had 53 players drafted, 14 in the first round. Here's how some other notable programs have fared over the same period:

Ohio State: 57 drafted, 13 first rounders
Miami, FL: 46 drafted, 21 first rounders
LSU: 44 drafted, 9 first rounders
Texas: 35 drafted, 11 first rounders
Florida: 41 drafted, 6 first rounders
Florida State: 39 drafted, 8 first rounders
Tennessee: 39 drafted, 7 first rounders
Oklahoma: 38 drafted, 7 first rounders

Has USC really been significantly more talented that the rest of college football? Have they really underachieved since 2002?

I think the evidence suggests otherwise. If you want to talk underachievers, how about Ohio State and Miami?

[bhlloy]

I promised myself I wouldn't post in this thread again, but holy crap - 7 straight PAC-10 titles and 6 major bowl wins is underachieving? Pray tell us who exactly has "achieved" this decade then. I sincerely hope you never ever end up in a job where you regularly grade other people's performance

Lost some really bad games to teams they never should have lost to? Sure, I'll be the first to admit that. But saying USC has "underachieved" might be one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this board.

[RainMaker]

Miami's is a tad skewed as most of those big draft picks came at the beginning of the decade where they did win a NC and came a bad call away from another.

You can make a case for Ohio State underachieving, although I'd argue that their talent wasn't really suited well for competing against speedy teams.

USC also had 3 Heisman Trophy winners in that stretch and a slew of others who were candidates. If we were to list the players USC has had compared to Ohio State since 2002, it would look rather skewed (especially when considering NFL success).

[bhlloy]

And 2 of those Heisman winners were on the same team which won a NC and came a Vince Young away from winning another (let's not even discuss the share seeing as that is too controversial a subject) Which is different from your Miami argument how?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I promised myself I wouldn't post in this thread again, but holy crap - 7 straight PAC-10 titles and 6 major bowl wins is underachieving? Pray tell us who exactly has "achieved" this decade then. I sincerely hope you never ever end up in a job where you regularly grade other people's performance

Lost some really bad games to teams they never should have lost to? Sure, I'll be the first to admit that. But saying USC has "underachieved" might be one of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this board.

When Florida wins it's 3rd National Championship in 4 years, you guys can brag about all those Pac-10 titles you've won over the last few years with the most talented team in college football.

Crapping out to a double digit underdog every season to blow your NC hopes is underachieving when you have that kind of talent discrepency over your competition.

[bhlloy]

We'll agree to disagree. You think anything less than the national championship is underachieving, I think you are batshit insane.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

We'll agree to disagree. You think anything less than the national championship is underachieving, I think you are batshit insane.

I think when you have the most talented team in the country it is. Especially when the losses keeping you from a championship are coming against teams that have no business beating you.

[bhlloy]

Except you have nothing to base "most talented team in the country" on except your own random perceptions, and when provided with evidence that other teams may have been just as talented, you choose to ignore it with more obscure perceptions you have. USC has recruited near the top nationally every year and has also been ranked near the top nationally every year since 2003. Beyond that, you are just making shit up to fit your argument.

And yeah, going back I am proud as hell of 7 straight titles in one of the 3 strongest conferences, 1.somethingcontroversial national championships and a close loss in another game. I have no idea who you follow but unless it's Florida, we've achieved more than you.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Except you have nothing to base "most talented team in the country" on except your own random perceptions, and when provided with evidence that other teams may have been just as talented, you choose to ignore it with more obscure perceptions you have. USC has recruited near the top nationally every year and has also been ranked near the top nationally every year since 2003. Beyond that, you are just making shit up to fit your argument.

And yeah, going back I am proud as hell of 7 straight titles in one of the 3 strongest conferences, 1.somethingcontroversial national championships and a close loss in another game. I have no idea who you follow but unless it's Florida, we've achieved more than you.

Of course it's my perception, that is what college football is all about. They had 21 players drafted the last 2 seasons including 7 first rounders. Do tell me one team that had more talent than USC last year and the year before.

I'm not a Florida fan, but they have won 2 BCS Championships the last 3 years and are on pace for a 3rd one this year. That trumps whatever consolation games you guys win.

[jbergey22]

I guess Im in the Carroll has done a great job camp. I mean the Pac-10 was pretty competitive in the late 80's and 90's. Since Carroll took over its been USC domination. He has managed to lose some of the most inexplainable games but besides that I dont really see a flaw in what he has done. I think the Pac-10 has become a stronger conference simply because the other teams have to recruit so much better to keep up with USC.