The 2013 NBA Playoffs

[Groundhog]

Heat don't need a conspiracy to win this at home, they just need LeBron to be LeBron, and the other guys to be passable. I think most of the questionable calls have been heavily influenced by who is playing on their homecourt, which is pretty normal. The LeBron/Hibbert charge call is a prime example - although I think they got it right, it was like a 51/49 call and if the game is in Miami I think they are calling a blocking foul on Hibbert.

[spleen1015]

I sure would like it for the Pacers to win, but I can't logically believe it will.

[whomario]

Heat doing a great job moving the ball and getting inside on every trip, great trap defense as well. West and especially Hibbert need to figure this schemes out quickly or the Pacers are toast.

[whomario]

Ok, later on in the quarter the Heat overdid it, if they weren´t so busy trying to get Hibbert into foul trouble they propably could be up 10 by now. Hibbert is doing a sensational job on defense. Overall, watching him now vs the start of the season is night and day.
He will never be a 20+/10+ guy in the regular season, but if you can get by with him playing 30 minutes and then have him fresh for the Playoffs, that´s an amazing luxury to have and propably the wise thing for the Pacers to do in the future as well.

If the Pacers had just 1 competent perimeter player on the bench this series might be over allready ...

Pacers need to tone down the PnRs and get the ball inside on post ups, George isn´t equipped (yet) to be the focal point in a pnR offense here imo.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I sure would like it for the Pacers to win, but I can't logically believe it will.

Ditto. I feel like they're going to need a helmet catch level miracle to pull it off.

[Julio Riddols]

Some of these recent fouls are getting silly.

[Matthean]

This game was played to see if LeBron could play all the way through with no medical issues. It is kind of frustrating to see a game played like this. It would be nice if the Heat took care of business more often, but they seem to like more of showing up when they need to.

[RainMaker]

Miami just has way more talent.

[Young Drachma]

David Stern didn't make those dunks.

[Groundhog]

Ah well, go Spurs!

Still, great overall effort from the Pacers to force the game 7. Definitely need an upgrade on their bench, but they have the pieces to compete for awhile if they can stick together. Will be interesting to see what happens with Granger, too.

[molson]

What happened to the conspiracy for the Lakers to go deep in the playoffs?

Pretty much if any popular, big-name and/or big market team with lots of talent does well, the NBA is rigged. Notwithstanding when those teams don't make it. And the league will rig things to keep smaller market teams out. Except when those teams have decades-long dynasties with many finals appearances.

I've never seen any hard evidence about how many billions the league lost with the Lakers out early, or with the Pacers in the conference finals instead of the Knicks (which I guess was a lost rigging opportunity, though, Heat/Pacers has done better this year than Heat/Boston last year, so I don't know where that fits into the conspiracy). Or how many billions they get with the Heat having made it. You'd think that would be a critical part of any conspiracy argument - the actual nuts and bolts of the benefits.

[RainMaker]

You guys do realize there were refs who were involved in fixing NBA games, right? That they employed a head of officials who recently got busted for telling his officials to be bias?

I get it that some of the conspiracy stuff gets out of hand, but the NBA has a really shitty history.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You guys do realize there were refs who were involved in fixing NBA games, right? That they employed a head of officials who recently got busted for telling his officials to be bias?

I get it that some of the conspiracy stuff gets out of hand, but the NBA has a really shitty history.

Any ref can shave points to make some cash, that's a completely different type of circumstances from a billion dollar corporation scripting outcomes for unclear gain.

Edit: And it's not even just the NBA - the draft lottery is rigged too of course, so that implicates Ernst & Young, and there's often talks that the networks are involved as well.

It's just EVERYTHING. And the predictions are often wrong, like with the Lakers this year. That's just forgotten. If the Lakers pulled out a series win, that would be proof of a conspiracy. But if they lose, then the NEXT big time team that wins is proof of the conspiracy. Sometimes, the best teams with the most talent, like the Heat, should probably win some basketball games, I would think.

I will say though, even though you would think the NBA loses more from the reputation of being rigged than they would from having the "right team" win games, but it seems like so many of the NBAs FANS think everything is rigged, which is a phenomenon I don't quite understand.

[RainMaker]

I don't think the league outright fixes games, I think they make points of emphasis to officials that benefit themselves (their former head of officials just got caught doing something like this). I think there is a bias in how certain players are officiated compared to others. And I think discipline and drug testing varies a great deal depending on who you are and who you play for.

Even teams get differing treatment. The Timberwolves faced huge penalties (loss of 5 first round picks!) for trying to circumvent the cap. The Spurs received a $250k fine for resting players in the regular season. The Knicks received only a $200k fine for hosting illegal draft workouts which gave them a competitive advantage.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think the league outright fixes games, I think they make points of emphasis to officials that benefit themselves (their former head of officials just got caught doing something like this). I think there is a bias in how certain players are officiated compared to others. And I think discipline and drug testing varies a great deal depending on who you are and who you play for.

Even teams get differing treatment. The Timberwolves faced huge penalties (loss of 5 first round picks!) for trying to circumvent the cap. The Spurs received a $250k fine for resting players in the regular season. The Knicks received only a $200k fine for hosting illegal draft workouts which gave them a competitive advantage.

Why are you a fan of a league that you still think impacts the outcome of the games? Is it because you're a fan of a team that (you think) benefits from the shadiness (at least when their superstar feels like playing)?

[molson]

NBA Superstars will always get calls from refs, that's human nature and you see the same thing with good pitchers getting close calls in baseball, I don't think that's proof of improper influencing. Home teams have always had advantages in every sport for the same kinds of reasons.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

Why are you a fan of a league that you still think impacts the outcome of the games? Is it because you're a fan of a team that (you think) benefits from the shadiness (at least when their superstar feels like playing)?

I'm a fan of basketball and it's the only game in town.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

NBA Superstars will always get calls from refs, that's human nature and you see the same thing with good pitchers getting close calls in baseball, I don't think that's proof of improper influencing. Home teams have always had advantages in every sport for the same kinds of reason.

That's bias. And the NBA has a responsibility to eliminate officials who are bias. Just as any other sport does. I don't recall the commissioner of baseball saying his dream World Series is Yankees vs Yankees.

I don't know what is and isn't legit, but the NBA has a real dubious history and it's crazy to just blow off any complaint as some kooky conspiracy theory.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's bias. And the NBA has a responsibility to eliminate officials who are bias. Just as any other sport does. I don't recall the commissioner of baseball saying his dream World Series is Yankees vs Yankees.

I don't know what is and isn't legit, but the NBA has a real dubious history and it's crazy to just blow off any complaint as some kooky conspiracy theory.

Iif an umpire is squeezing the plate on a White Sox pitcher in Yankee stadium while giving CC Sabathia three inches off both sides of the plate, no one says Bud Selig is running some sort of conspiracy.

IMO, the NBA have referees who are biased, some who are just horrible and some who are both. The league also has done a horrible job when it comes to the actual rules of the game which in many cases make the game too subjective and almost require a call be made at the slightest contact. This allows players and coaches to do everything in their power to try an influence calls. That does not add up to league mandated conspiracy. It means the league needs to do a more comprehensive job when it comes to dealing with officiating.

[molson]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The league also has done a horrible job when it comes to the actual rules of the game which in many cases make the game too subjective and almost require a call be made at the slightest contact.

I think it's the nature of the game too. At a certain level of speed, basketball kind of becomes a mess. When so many plays can be called either way, you're going to have a lot of angry fans, and some of them are going to think that the calls against their team must be suspect. Most people agree that NBA reffing is "horrible", but you also have tons of disagreement among fans who have access to replays and slow motion regarding when a foul actually occurs. Football kind of has this problem too with regard to pass interference and holding, but somehow those things don't seem as big a deal in the flow of a game. Maybe because fouls are just so frequent in the NBA, and when there's a call you don't like you can stew about it for a minute or two while the game stops and the free throws are being shot. And all of those fouls add up. Whereas in football, sometimes there's a questionable call, but then 2 seconds later there's a defensive stand or a turnover and the call didn't matter at all. I mean, it's not like we don't have people constantly whining about NFL calls too, but you don't have the same level of conspiracy talk. Well, unless it's college football, or that year the Patriots went 16-0.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm a fan of basketball and it's the only game in town.

Did you miss the NHL playoffs with the Blackhawks? Or do you not like hockey?

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by molson

I think it's the nature of the game too. At a certain level of speed, basketball kind of becomes a mess. When so many plays can be called either way, you're going to have a lot of angry fans, and some of them are going to think that the calls against their team must be suspect. Most people agree that NBA reffing is "horrible", but you also have tons of disagreement among fans who have access to replays and slow motion regarding when a foul actually occurs. Football kind of has this problem too with regard to pass interference and holding, but somehow those things don't seem as big a deal in the flow of a game. Maybe because fouls are just so frequent in the NBA, and when there's a call you don't like you can stew about it for a minute or two while the game stops and the free throws are being shot. And all of those fouls add up. Whereas in football, sometimes there's a questionable call, but then 2 seconds later there's a defensive stand or a turnover and the call didn't matter at all. I mean, it's not like we don't have people constantly whining about NFL calls too, but you don't have the same level of conspiracy talk. Well, unless it's college football, or that year the Patriots went 16-0.

You have a point though I think it is closer to MLB and the strike zone than the NFL. Like you said, those calls in the NFL happen less frequently than the fouls in the NBA. The difference IMO is the inconsistency throughout the game itself. Not just among the referees themselves (again, similar to MLB) but with the same official quarter to quarter, game to game.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's bias. And the NBA has a responsibility to eliminate officials who are bias. Just as any other sport does. I don't recall the commissioner of baseball saying his dream World Series is Yankees vs Yankees.

I don't know what is and isn't legit, but the NBA has a real dubious history and it's crazy to just blow off any complaint as some kooky conspiracy theory.

I feel like the NBA was much worse when Jordan was at the height of his powers. Jordan never would have fouled out in a playoff game setting a screen (as Lebron has twice in the playoffs). With so much scrutiny today, it's hard for refs or the league to "fix" anything. There are 30,000+ bloggers going through ever play/foul/call last night with a magnifying glass ready to pounce this morning. Back in the 80s/90s and even early 2000s, there wasn't this level of scrutiny and there probably were games where the stars/top teams were given preference. I mean, imagine if Miami won with Lebron doing a Bryon Russel style pushoff or the end of the Sacramento/Lakers game where the Lakers took 27 free throws in the 4th quarter alone or especially the "Bill Laimbeer phantom foul" in 1988 (perhaps the worst call in playoff history):


That's real conspiracy stuff as it's plain as day bad calls in key situations were skewed for the big market/star. Nothing in this Heat-Indiana series was close to that. In fact, you could make the case the key calls involving Hibbert actually went Indiana's way (esp when he smacked Lebron on the head and James got the offensive foul) and, again, Lebron fouled out in a key game on a questionable "moving screen" call that happens about 10-12 times a game. Go back and watch the 90s Bulls or Lakers series if you want to see some obvious bias. Since the Wade-Shaq 2006 title, there really hasn't been any fuel for the playoff conspiracy theorists.

[spleen1015]

Something occurred to me reading Arlie's post.

How many times did Jordan set a screen in the playoffs? In his career? I've always seen screens as a job for role players, not the scorer on the floor.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Something occurred to me reading Arlie's post.

How many times did Jordan set a screen in the playoffs? In his career? I've always seen screens as a job for role players, not the scorer on the floor.

The #2 scorer in the league all-time would probably like to argue that screens are for role players point.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by murrayyyyy

The #2 scorer in the league all-time would probably like to argue that screens are for role players point.

That's a good point. I guess my opinion comes from how I've played basketball, not NBA basketball.

You guys that are smarter than me and can also remember, did MJ set lots of screens? I figured he was always receiving screens.

[Matthean]

Screens are to set up the guard(typically) to score or penetrate so they can drive and score or pass to someone who is open as other players collapse on the driving player. The fact that big men are used to screen further cements that the player doing the screening isn't there to be the primary scoring option.

[murrayyyyy]

Also I think the real differences are in the NBA/NFL comparsion.

1) NFL doesn't play that many games. I can name playoff situations where teams got calls or not calls. Brady anytime Lewis fell near his ankle for 15 yards. Ask Seahawks fans if Roethlisberger scored on 4th and goal. Was it a Music City Miracle or a lateral? I remember Flacco throwing a touchdown after the play clock was at 0 for two seconds. Wasn't there a debate this year if it was PI or not on the last play the 49ers had in the endzone? All playoff situations. If the NFL played 82 games a year with the possibility of 28 playoff games for two teams then anyone could make a 2 min youtube video.

2) For some reason we accept that NFL misses calls. Holding happens on every single play. NFL refs are given a free pass for not calling certain fouls. If a NBA ref did this everyone would assume it's fixed.

3) Home field refs exist in the NFL. I don't care what anyone says.

4) The Falcons averaged 3.3 penalties a game in 2012. Think about that... The Falcons only did something that was against the rules 3 times a game for an entire season? I find that hard to believe.

[albionmoonlight]

One of the problems with basketball and fouls, I think, is that they are highly visible and a legitimate part of the strategy. In most sports, fouls/penalties are to be avoided. You might have the occasional case where it makes sense for a DB to commit pass interference to prevent a touchdown if he gets burned. Or for a base runner to try and interfere with the ball if he is going to be out anyway. But any team that tried to use those strategies (or, conversely, that built an offense around trying to, say, get pass interference calls) would fail.

In basketball, however, penalties/fouls are a fundamental part of the strategy. If a coach says "We are going to put bodies on them in the paint; we aren't going to let them have uncontested layups. They will have to earn it at the line" or says "We want to drive the lane often and get their big guys into foul trouble," we don't bat an eye at that. Depending on the team and the opponent, that's a completely legitimate (and often successful) way of playing basketball. Which is kind of strange when you think about it. Especially because fans tend to find a bunch of guys standing around watching another guy take a 15 foot set shot one of the less exciting parts of the game.

Basketball also has the problem that its penalty/foul situations are highly visible. A lot of plays involve collisions near the basket. And every collision requires a "foul or no foul" judgment call from the ref that will piss off half the people watching.

Sure, you could argue that "holding happens on every play" in football. But, even if true, it is not called on every play, and it is invisible to the average fan anyway.

I think that basketball has problems with foul controversies. But I think that any solution that would solve the problem would create a sport that isn't really basketball. It might just be something that fans have to live with because it's hard to see an alternative.

Edit--I did think of a similar example over lunch--the offsides trap in soccer.

[Vince, Pt. II]

So how many times do you think the guy who won coach of the year was let go the same season?

Apparently the Nuggets are firing Karl today.

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

So how many times do you think the guy who won coach of the year was let go the same season?

Apparently the Nuggets are firing Karl today.

every year. winning the "coach of the year" just means you will be fired next season

[Matthean]

Karl seems like the guy you want if your team is bad and you want them to be halfway decent. He doesn't seem like the guy who can take a wanna be contender and get them over the hump.

[korme]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Karl seems like the guy you want if your team is bad and you want them to be halfway decent. He doesn't seem like the guy who can take a wanna be contender and get them over the hump.

I don't believe that to be true. Karl's best team was arguably the '95/96 Supes, and that team was beat by a 72-10 Bulls team. Aside from GP/Kemp, that team wasn't spectacular at all - flanked by Hersey Hawkins, Detlef Schrempf, and the forgettable Jim McIlvaine.

He's never had a team with loads of talent, and really if you want to be the 'contender that wants to get over the hump' you've got to have superstars. Sorry, Melo's Denver teams weren't very good and Melo was like Jordan in the early 80's (some could argue he still is.

He got the absolute most out of those Nuggets teams. I'd love for him to go to the Knicks (not happening), or Clips and see what happens.

[Jas_lov]

Great ending. It looked like the ball was just off Parker's fingertips when it went from .1 to 0. Duncan and Pop deserve one more.

[Matthean]

Looks like Miami's legs left them in the 4th quarter.

[britrock88]

Yesssssss

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Arles

I feel like the NBA was much worse when Jordan was at the height of his powers. Jordan never would have fouled out in a playoff game setting a screen (as Lebron has twice in the playoffs). With so much scrutiny today, it's hard for refs or the league to "fix" anything. There are 30,000+ bloggers going through ever play/foul/call last night with a magnifying glass ready to pounce this morning. Back in the 80s/90s and even early 2000s, there wasn't this level of scrutiny and there probably were games where the stars/top teams were given preference. I mean, imagine if Miami won with Lebron doing a Bryon Russel style pushoff or the end of the Sacramento/Lakers game where the Lakers took 27 free throws in the 4th quarter alone or especially the "Bill Laimbeer phantom foul" in 1988 (perhaps the worst call in playoff history):


That's real conspiracy stuff as it's plain as day bad calls in key situations were skewed for the big market/star. Nothing in this Heat-Indiana series was close to that. In fact, you could make the case the key calls involving Hibbert actually went Indiana's way (esp when he smacked Lebron on the head and James got the offensive foul) and, again, Lebron fouled out in a key game on a questionable "moving screen" call that happens about 10-12 times a game. Go back and watch the 90s Bulls or Lakers series if you want to see some obvious bias. Since the Wade-Shaq 2006 title, there really hasn't been any fuel for the playoff conspiracy theorists.

The Bulls were near the bottom of the league in free throw attempts. If they were getting favorable treatment, it wasn't showing up there. And Jordan's FTA per shot are significantly lower than almost every single star today. Why are stars today getting so many more free throw attempts per shot?

As for conspiracies since 2006, I think the Tim Donaghy/Scott Foster scandal provided a lot of ammo.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by korme

I don't believe that to be true. Karl's best team was arguably the '95/96 Supes, and that team was beat by a 72-10 Bulls team. Aside from GP/Kemp, that team wasn't spectacular at all - flanked by Hersey Hawkins, Detlef Schrempf, and the forgettable Jim McIlvaine.

He's never had a team with loads of talent, and really if you want to be the 'contender that wants to get over the hump' you've got to have superstars. Sorry, Melo's Denver teams weren't very good and Melo was like Jordan in the early 80's (some could argue he still is.

He got the absolute most out of those Nuggets teams. I'd love for him to go to the Knicks (not happening), or Clips and see what happens.

This. I'd love to see what happens if he gets an actually talented team. He's taken several different groups of players to heights they really shouldn't be capable of. He's never had a fantastic team.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Dare I say that the Spurs took a page out of the Warriors' book yesterday? For the first couple of games in the Spurs/Warriors series, the Warriors ran Parker ragged, doing everything they could to tire him out by guarding him with Klay Thompson and running Steph Curry at him. Last night, the Spurs sent Kawhi Leonard after LeBron, and he was gassed at the beginning of the fourth quarter. It's hard to say that a guy was slowed down when he posts a triple-double, but he WAS held to only 18 points.

Also, Danny Green's viral ad for Burgerfi is pretty awesome.

[MrBug708]

Pretty sure that Pop doesnt take pages out of anyone's book. He has written the book on mixing up things

[korme]

I hate 2-3-2.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Dare I say that the Spurs took a page out of the Warriors' book yesterday? For the first couple of games in the Spurs/Warriors series, the Warriors ran Parker ragged, doing everything they could to tire him out by guarding him with Klay Thompson and running Steph Curry at him. Last night, the Spurs sent Kawhi Leonard after LeBron, and he was gassed at the beginning of the fourth quarter. It's hard to say that a guy was slowed down when he posts a triple-double, but he WAS held to only 18 points.

Also, Danny Green's viral ad for Burgerfi is pretty awesome.

It was widely accepted that the Spurs were going to use Leonard on LeBron so there was nothing new there. Wade even admitted that they looked like a team on an empty tank due to coming off a 7 game series. There was nothing really Warriors about last night.

Originally Posted by korme

I hate 2-3-2.

+1. I have for years. If the Spurs can go 2-1 at home, it will make the last game(s) at Miami highly entertaining.

[Arles]

This was just filthy...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Get that shit OUTTA here, LOL.

As much as I'd like to have seen him, you know, stay in the play & get down court ... well, I guess he was as WTF as anybody else there

[Groundhog]

Yeah it was bizzare how he just sorta stood there yelling at the crowd... it was like he thought play had stopped for some reason, but after that rejection... I guess he earned it.

[EagleFan]

Great hustle right there on that sequence of events. Block, OB save one, OB save two and drawing the foul.

[EagleFan]

Usually can't stand NBA (unless it's playing NBA 2K12) because it seems to always be about trying to make the Sportscenter Highlight but the Spurs play a great team game. Pleasure watching them move the ball around like that and the hustle that they show.

[EagleFan]

Okay, WTF is the deal with the Mohawk guy. Looks like douchebag and a poser.

[ColtCrazy]

Heat have the best player, but the Spurs have such a deep team. You get this production off the bench, they are tough to beat. Doubt they'll get that much production every game, but they are a blast to watch. My 8 year old son figured out he was in San Antonio when he was 2. Now he's a Spurs fan for the series. Whatever it takes.

[EagleFan]

Holy crap, they are hitting everything. They are playing the game of their life.