Euro 2004 Discussion

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by airulf

Denmark has a population of only 5 million. Sweden around 8 or 9 million.

I knew that...

I just wanted to point out how small the remaining teams are in population, compared to Russia (>100M), Germany (80M), France (>50M), Spain (>50M), Italy (>50M) and England (>40M?).

[MIJB#19]

Sweden-Netherlands
Kickoff in 5 minutes and counting.
Half of the Dutchmen are rushing home to be in time at their tv set or in a bar to watch the game.

May the most attractive playing team win!

[Coder]

de Boer had a nasty shot on Ljungberg.. Ljungberg touches the ball, then De Boer comes in with feet on Ljungberg's shin.. then de Boer has to leave due to injury? ;-)

Seriously... can you please score now.. I've got $10 on a Holland win.. big money!!

[Coder]

Swedish reporters in the aisle to the dressing rooms said Seedorf and Davids were arguing on the way to the dressing rooms.

[MIJB#19]

Sorry Sweden.


YES!
F*cking penalties!
At last, we got rid of the losing streak!!!!!

[Coder]

I'm so disappointed... sure, I put money on Holland... but Sweden were clearly the best team in overtime... After the superb free kick save from Isaksson we have one shot in the crossbar by Larsson and another in the left post by Ljungberg. We should have won...

(edit: wrong post, LEFT it is)

[3ric]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Sorry Sweden.


YES!
F*cking penalties!
At last, we got rid of the losing streak!!!!!

Congrats, Mathijs... now don't lose in the semis... I'm rooting for Holland to win it all!

[MIJB#19]

People are going nuts here, we finally won on penalties, finally, finally, finally.
Losing in 3 consecutive tournaments on penalties, also losing 3 consecutive Euro champs on penalties, I bet all 16M Dutchmen, except the players, had no faith in it.

Time to put the numerous penalty kick syndrome commercials into the trash can (or send them to Sweden...)

[MIJB#19]

Dola.

Trying to be objective here.
First half was ugly, Sweden defended so well, there was no way either team would score.
Second half, Netherlands dominated and should have scored, but failed.
First over time, neither team managed to get the best chances.
Second over time, Sweden were closer to the winning goal then the Dutch were all game, twice.
Penalties, the Dutch were determined and got rid of a terrible syndrome.

[mattwakeman]

Hard on Sweden especially with hitting the woodwork twice in quick succession but the better and the more attacking side won. But oh look, yet another Villa player blows a penalty...at least Olaf and Darius will have something to chat about in pre-season. Ah yes, and us Birmingham City fans will be able to come up with some songs just for them...

[MIJB#19]

Losing on penalties really s*cks, I'm so happy we didn't at last.

Edit: It turns out not to be a dolapost afterall...

[Desnudo]

They should have resolved it with a dive-off between Nistelrooy and Ibrahimovic

[Darkiller]

Congrats MIJB !!!
One more win and you guys are in the Championship game ! well done !

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Congrats, Matthijs... now don't lose in the semis... I'm rooting for Holland to win it all!

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Congrats MIJB !!!
One more win and you guys are in the Championship game ! well done !

That's really cool, Kristian and Guillaume.

I've predicting Sweden-France as final (if we wouldn't make it).
I was even rooting for Sweden to get there, until we were matched to them.
I also feel sorry either Denmark or the Czechs have to go out, while all-defensive-Greece are there already.

[Ajaxab]

The way this tournament's been going should we have expected anything else but the Dutch to win on penalties of all things? I fully expect the Danes to beat the Czechs tomorrow in another upset.

The Dutch will then throw everything they have at the Portugese and not score. They will then win on pks as Kluivert will come off the bench and take the winning kick. That will place Holland in the final against the Greeks. The Dutch will repeat their performance of the previous two games and improbably beat Greece from the spot to win Euro 2004 with Paul Bosvelt scoring the clincher. This is the way things have to go given this tournament's results.

MIJB, you better be wearing Red and Green on Wednesday to jinx the Portugese. Go Oranje!

[Mac Howard]

I came across this justification by Urs Meier for disallowing England's 88 minute "goal":

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Meier said: "It was a clear foul, the keeper was in his own area and must be protected and if it happened again, I would make the same decision.

"England are looking for a scapegoat and they are looking to blame me."

A defiant Meier also insisted he interpreted the rules exactly right as laid down for the tournament.

He said: "England should remember that we are at Euro 2004 and not playing in the English Premier League.

"What is allowed there is not allowed here. There are different rules and I applied them."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa! I always new you guys were operating different rules to us

Darkiller: I wasn't saying that England did have the best defence in the world but that "even if they had the best ..... then you don't defend a 1-0 lead for 87 minutes

[Kosta]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

I also feel sorry either Denmark or the Czechs have to go out, while all-defensive-Greece are there already.

All defensive Greece??? What games have you been watching Orange boy?

Greece has beaten the home team and the reigning champions. They outplayed Portugal and scored 2 great goals. The draw against Spain was somewhat defensive, but the game against Russia was free-flowing end to end stuff and Greece were looking for an equaliser at 1-2 down even though they didn't need it.

Aside from a predictable panicked lated French flurry, Greece also created the better chances in the quarter-final and totally deserved to win.

They have played with two genuine strikers in every match.

Now Holland... a team badly coached with too many individuals and too little teamwork. They have genuinely beaten Latvia so far and nobody else!

Why Advocaat persists with his tactics and selections is beyond me. If Holland had a decent coach they would walk this tournament in.

[Alf]

Preparing my "oranje" T-Shirt for the semifinals !

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

Meier said: "It was a clear foul, the keeper was in his own area and must be protected and if it happened again, I would make the same decision.

"England are looking for a scapegoat and they are looking to blame me."

A defiant Meier also insisted he interpreted the rules exactly right as laid down for the tournament.

He said: "England should remember that we are at Euro 2004 and not playing in the English Premier League.

"What is allowed there is not allowed here. There are different rules and I applied them."

I sincerely hope there was something lost in translation there.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

He said: "England should remember that we are at Euro 2004 and not playing in the English Premier League.

Judging by those photographs on page 8 with the Portuguese keeper being held down, that should be a foul on the keeper in any league in the world, even the English Premier

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Kosta

All defensive Greece??? What games have you been watching Orange boy?

Greece has beaten the home team and the reigning champions. They outplayed Portugal and scored 2 great goals. The draw against Spain was somewhat defensive, but the game against Russia was free-flowing end to end stuff and Greece were looking for an equaliser at 1-2 down even though they didn't need it.

Aside from a predictable panicked lated French flurry, Greece also created the better chances in the quarter-final and totally deserved to win.

They have played with two genuine strikers in every match.

Now Holland... a team badly coached with too many individuals and too little teamwork. They have genuinely beaten Latvia so far and nobody else!

Why Advocaat persists with his tactics and selections is beyond me. If Holland had a decent coach they would walk this tournament in.

Good to see you to, Kosta!

I have to admit I haven't seen much of Euro2004. Somehow, I decided to pick out some games and for the rest just watch the last 15 or 30 minutes. For the knock-out phase, I start watching from minute 35 or so.
I picked Fra-Eng, the Group B last games, Swe-Dan and the Dutch games.
That's not exactly how I follwed the tournaments in the past (From WC'94 to WC'02, I dare to say I only missed after-midnight-games, half of the simultaneous played games and one or another here or there.)

All Defensive Greece? That's the only Greece I've seen against France. Just like the ultra defensive Sweden against our team. I think Greece and Sweden let the objective fans down, yet did what they had to for having a shot at beating France or the NLs.

[MIJB#19]

Let's see what's left:

Wednesday, Portugal - Netherlands : 45 minutes of nothing, 45 minutes of substitute players scoring goals and the Dutch walking away victorious: 3-2

Thursday, Czech Republic - Greece : Greece playing ultra defensive, the Czechs waiting for the Greeks to fall in their trap like the Latvians, Germans, Dutch and Danes did, claiming the victory: 2-0

Sunday, Czech Republic - Netherlands : three times the charm, this time the Czechs go down to 10 men and lose in the last 10 minutes: 3-1

[scooter]

Gronkjaer deserves a yellow card and possibly a suspension. His simulation against Nedved was terrible (the Czechs should appeal Neved's yellow card and get it overturned as the replay clearly shows NO contact between the players). Gronkjaer acted as though he had been shot (always suspect, automatic yellow card for simulation).

The suspension is deserved for the hair-pulling he did on his way back up the field. If spitting (a childish act) deserves a three match ban, hair-pulling (a childish act as well) deserves at least a one match ban. And the video evidence with Nedved's head being pulled back should be all the evidence UEFA needs.

I understand these players are under a lot of pressure and stress to perform on the international stage, but how do they expect to get away with things like spitting and hair-pulling. This isn't the schoolyard. There are like 200 cameras at these games - they can't possibly believe they can get away with this stuff?

[Mac Howard]

For any of you who like to read sports journalism with considerable literary merit you might like this article written by the novelist Martin Amis:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/euro2...248867,00.html

[Mac Howard]

>Judging by those photographs on page 8 with the Portuguese keeper being held down, that should be a foul on the keeper in any league in the world, even the English Premier

If only single frame shots told us everything about dynamic situations then life would be so much simpler

The video evidence shows a very different story particularly that from behind the goal. It was the goalkeeper's equivalent of a "dive" relying, justifiably as Meier's comments show, on the distortion of the laws by European referees in defining any contact with a goalkeeper as a foul. Ricardo made no attempt whatsoever to jump for the dropping ball but merely ran into Terry, his arms flailing, and slumped to the ground appealing to the referee for a foul and Meier promptly obliged. In fact, Terry's arm was initially doubled back to his shoulder and came out to retain balance when Ricardo knocked him to the right from below. Ricardo's flailing left hand also hit Terry in the face.

Meier is talking nonsense in saying that there are laws about protecting goalkeepers. The laws on "accidental contact" (soccer is a non-contact sport and all deliberate contact is a foul) do not differentiate between goalkeepers and outfield players. There is no such thing as a law protecting 'keepers, it is merely a pragmatic decision by referees to interpret contact in favour of the gk because of the greater vulnerability to injury - the hands/arms being employed holding the ball and therefore not available to protect from the contact or to break a fall. The justification is that outfield players should take more care about accidental contact because of the greater vulnerability.

Premiership referees, therefore, do make allowance on these lines and where a gk has the ball or is favourite to take it then they will rule on a foul if contact takes place. However, when it is a 50/50 challenge for the ball (and in this case it was 70/30 in Terry's favour) then they apply the rules as they stand and rule on "accidental contact" if contact occurs. In this case the contact was accidental and instigated by Ricardo, not Terry.

By contrast, European referees have exaggerated this pragmatic response into a 'rule" (in reality an interpretation) that means all contact with a gk is a foul. That's why you will hear British commentators referring to European referees "wrapping goalkeepers in cotton wool". You can see from the response of many European fans that they have been misled by this interpretation into thinking that gks have special protecrtion from the rules. The erroneous post, I think by MIJB#19 (my apologies if it wasn't), is not the only one I've read recently.

Meier has received the condemnation from many referees for his comments because he misrepresents this difference of interpretation as a difference of rules. It is nothing of the sort. He also reveals a considerable prejudice against British clubs which is now causing concern as his decision here favoured a European team over a British team. It's the not the first time he's been in trouble for such prejudice - he was responsible for some of the most controversial events in favour of South Korea in the 2002 World Cup. He has the reputation of being a "hometeam" ref.

According to the rules, there was no foul here.

According to British (and the BigSoccer board referee's section indicates, American) referees there was no foul.

According to European referees, there was a foul.

Hey, but who defined these rules?

However, Terry was offside! (though the linesman didn't spot it)

EDIT:

I went from making the above post to the BigSoccer referee's section. Here's one referee/lawyer's comment on this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glad to read that Urs Meier thinks he was protecting the keeper. I think he was protecting Portugal. Evidently, he is not using the Laws of the Game codified in England and adopted later by FIFA. Is he using a Portuguese version? A Swiss version? Does anyone know where I can get a copy of those rules? It would make it easier for all of us if we knew what rulebook he was using.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mac Howard]

Couldn't resist this picture

http://www.machoward.com/beckss.jpg

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

If only single frame shots told us everything about dynamic situations then life would be so much simpler

Watching it in real time makes it obvious that Terry had the spot. I'm not sure what he could have done to avoid the "foul" except for dropping to his knees. It seemed like an iffy call at best. It is always bad to see a game decided on a referee's call.

[Kosta]

I think it was a foul on the keeper.

On first viewing I thought the ref had been soft, but on the replay I think it is clear that Ricardo is impeded.

[Desnudo]

Don't you think that it's clear that he was impeded by the fact that Terry's body is there? I think the arm was an after the fact incident. I was subjected to way too many replays and enough complaining by the announcers that I was hoping Portugal would find a way to win, but I still think it was no foul.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I just got back from Portugal. Man, it was an excellent few days of football. I went to the England-Portugal match and France-Greece.

England-Portugal was likely the best sporting event I've ever been too. The atmosphere in the stadium was amazing. Despite the bad rep for England fans (most of which is deserved based on past behavior), they are some of the best, most passionate fans I have ever seen. They basically took Lisbon over. Lisbon was just crawling with English fans on Thursday before the game. They were singing (drinking), kicking balls around (drinking), and basically enjoying pre-game revelry (and beer) for the entire day. A fantastic atmoshpere. I didn't hear one Portugese song all day long. Even in the stadium (where the English fans were outnumbered around 3 to 1), they dominated. They sang and cheered for the full 120 minutes of football. Until Portugal scored you never got much of a sense for their fans. Once they did score it was clear just how many there were though.

The Rooney injury was unfortunate. Very much so. England never looked the same after he left. He brings a dimension to the attack that both Vassell and Owen lack. He was also on fire and carrying the team offensively. England had no midfield. They were pretty awful all game. The best player for England all night long was Ashley Cole. He totally dominated Renaldo from start to finish. He played an excellent, excellent game. If you're a Man U fan you couldn't have been happy to watch that. Portugal were the better team. England scored too early and then went into a defensive shell. They just couldn't weather the storm for that long.

After the game Lisbon was rocking. The Portugese were out in force and I have that damned Portugal-ah-lay song forever etched into my memory. That said, Portugal winning made for a much, much better post-game party. The great atmosphere lasted well past dawn.

The Greece-France match was not great football. Not at all. Greece had one moment of brilliance and scored. It was a fantastic goal. After that they went into a defensive shell, keeping almost everybody behind the ball at all times. They aren't a great team by any stretch of the imagination, but they are fantastically well organized. Greece did a lot of writhing on the ground, which (as a hockey fan) I find utterly disgusting and not very sportsmanlike, but it's football. It's what they do. The Greek fans were rocking. Really good fans. The French were not as impressive. After France fell behind they became very, very quiet. I think it was part shock and part nerves, I imagination.

The post-game party was excellent as well. The Portugese were still thrilled wih their win over England, so they were in good spirits and I don't reckon too many of them were cheering for France. I had bought a Greek flag before the game to show my support of Greece. The best 5 euro investment ever. I had people coming up to me all night congratulating me on the victory and asking me about Greek football cheers and the like. A lot of alcohol is the only way I can explain how anyone could mistake a 6'4" light haired, blue-eyed American in a Detroit Tigers cap as Greek. But it was fun and I ran with it.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by scooter

Gronkjaer deserves a yellow card and possibly a suspension. His simulation against Nedved was terrible (the Czechs should appeal Neved's yellow card and get it overturned as the replay clearly shows NO contact between the players). Gronkjaer acted as though he had been shot (always suspect, automatic yellow card for simulation).

The suspension is deserved for the hair-pulling he did on his way back up the field. If spitting (a childish act) deserves a three match ban, hair-pulling (a childish act as well) deserves at least a one match ban. And the video evidence with Nedved's head being pulled back should be all the evidence UEFA needs.

I understand these players are under a lot of pressure and stress to perform on the international stage, but how do they expect to get away with things like spitting and hair-pulling. This isn't the schoolyard. There are like 200 cameras at these games - they can't possibly believe they can get away with this stuff?

Is that the same Nedved that simulated against the Netherlands, got Heitinga sent of with a second yellow card and then led his team to a gamewinning goal?

No way Nedved did not touch Gronkjaer.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Is that the same Nedved that simulated against the Netherlands, got Heitinga sent of with a second yellow card and then led his team to a gamewinning goal?

No way Nedved did not touch Gronkjaer.

It wasn't even close to a foul. It was embarassing. Watch some highlights, I'm sure they'll show that as a replay.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

It wasn't even close to a foul. It was embarassing. Watch some highlights, I'm sure they'll show that as a replay.

I've watched the game, seen the supposed action, in replay, in slow-motion.
It looked like nothing, but I bet Nedved's little toe did touch Gronkjaer.

[3ric]

What a player Milan Baros is! Maybe we're now seeing the extent of Houllier's mismanagement of Liverpool, when this guy was kept on the bench (when healthy) by - Emile Heskey ?!?

[scooter]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Is that the same Nedved that simulated against the Netherlands, got Heitinga sent of with a second yellow card and then led his team to a gamewinning goal?

I don't recall if he simulated or not during that game. It doesn't stand out in my memory. But then I wasn't watching the game draped in orange either

Since you assumed I thought Nedved was some kind of angel because I did mention the incident you spoke of, I'm going to assume that you condone hair-pulling as a game-winning stategy!

Oh, and the replays clearly show that there was NO contact between the players when Gronkjaer launced himself into the air and rolled over three times on the ground. I've still got the game on Tivo if you want to come over and watch it again

[3ric]

Oranje trailing 0-1 in the first semi... Figo's looking more motivated than he's ever done this YEAR - he just curled a shot off the post, had a great cross from the right, and had a spectacular run down the left side. Impressive.

[MIJB#19]

Wow, we made it all the way to the semi's.
By winning just 1 game.
Amazing!

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Wow, we made it all the way to the semi's.
By winning just 1 game.
Amazing!

It is pretty amazing. Holland played like crap. They really did. In 210 minutes of football in the quarter and semi finals they got all of 1 goal. An own goal at that. For a team with so much talent and offensive firepower that's pretty attrocious. Portugal could have easily won 4-0 if Pauleta could finish at all. I think Advocaat leaving is good for Hollan.d. His tactics just were not working. I don't know if a new coach will be able to overcome Holland's biggest problem: the players themselves. The in-fighting and all of that nonsense just tears the team apart.

I think Greece had they day versus France. The Cech's wont look past them and should be able to get by. A Czech/Portugal final would be a great one. Portugal started out slow, but have been getting better and better and are probably playing the best football of the tournament so far. The Czech's have been the strongest team throughout.

[Alf]

Keep in mind Portugal had 2 days rest extra compared to Holland (the same for Greece vs Czechs), so that was not too suprising see Holland not very active.

Great game by Portugal anyway !

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Alf

Keep in mind Portugal had 2 days rest extra compared to Holland (the same for Greece vs Czechs), so that was not too suprising see Holland not very active.

Great game by Portugal anyway !

A fair point, but Holland were not all that active against Sweden either.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

A fair point, but Holland were not all that active against Sweden either.

Sweden had 1 additional day of rest.

More seriously, the Swedish team played disapointingly defensive, like they are San Marino or Andorra. No wonder the Dutch team wasn't so great in the first half.
The Swedish team should have seen that with passing football, they could have beaten the Dutch team. We had the worst defense of the tournament (excluding the outstanding Edwin van der Sar).

On yesterday, the Dutch players have not grown up in the hot climate Portugal has these days. It's no surprise to see the Dutch team get better in the second half as the temperature got lower and to a Dutchmen-managable level. (Also makes it no surprise that we beat Sweden earlier on.)

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It is pretty amazing. Holland played like crap. They really did. In 210 minutes of football in the quarter and semi finals they got all of 1 goal. An own goal at that. For a team with so much talent and offensive firepower that's pretty attrocious. Portugal could have easily won 4-0 if Pauleta could finish at all. I think Advocaat leaving is good for Hollan.d. His tactics just were not working. I don't know if a new coach will be able to overcome Holland's biggest problem: the players themselves. The in-fighting and all of that nonsense just tears the team apart.

I'd love to defend my country, but there is little to defend.

1. The selection was more a team then ever, that I want to make clear. This team had clearly no inside troubles like it used to have in the past.

2. This tournament, we never saw the Dutch team play the way the fans of football are use to see, let me explain with pictures:

This is not Dutch-style:

...........Van Nistelrooij...Overmars
Robben...............................
Davids..............Seedorf..........
Van Bronckhorst..............Reiziger
.........Bouma...Cocu..Stam..........
.....................................
.............Van der Sar.............

This is more like it, excluding possible retiring players:

...........Van Nistelrooij...........
Robben......Van der Vaart....[??????]
....Davids................Sneijder...
..............Van Bommel.............
Van Bronckhorst.Heitinga.....Reiziger
.....................................
..............[???????]..............

Or this could work if we will never find a right winger:

....Van Nistelrooij...Makaaij........
Robben......Van der Vaart............
....Davids................Sneijder...
..............Van Bommel.............
Van Bronckhorst.Heitinga.....Reiziger
.....................................
..............[???????]..............

[Coder]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

More seriously, the Swedish team played disapointingly defensive, like they are San Marino or Andorra. No wonder the Dutch team wasn't so great in the first half.

I may be partial, but I just can't agree. We shut down the wings with tough full backs (Östlund who played in his first game of the tournament against the Dutch left wing) and the wings was where Sweden had been the most vulnerable during the tournament.

Sweden were prepared for Nistleroy's dubious forays into the offside position and Holland failed to finish the chances they got. This was partially due to great play by Isaksson, but also because they had some very poor shots. Basically, blame the poor Dutch play for missed chances, not what you consider "disappointingly defensive" Sweden.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Coder

I may be partial, but I just can't agree. We shut down the wings with tough full backs (Östlund who played in his first game of the tournament against the Dutch left wing) and the wings was where Sweden had been the most vulnerable during the tournament.

Sweden were prepared for Nistleroy's dubious forays into the offside position and Holland failed to finish the chances they got. This was partially due to great play by Isaksson, but also because they had some very poor shots. Basically, blame the poor Dutch play for missed chances, not what you consider "disappointingly defensive" Sweden.

The poor Dutch play was another reason why we almost lost, no question about that. One can start wondering why Sweden scored 0 goals against arguably the worst defense of the tournament. Without Van der Sar, we'd have been 2-6 losers against the Czechs and 1-5 losers against Portugal.

Still, I am glad that the Sweden-NLs game did show that waiting for counter attacks doesn't always pay off (although decided on penalties). Calling it Andorra/San Marino-like was a bit far-fetched, yet it was nothing else then what Latvia did (and I heared they got past Hungary/Poland and Turkey that way). The only reason why Sweden had about 2-3 chances in the first 90 minutes is because the Swedish team has better players then Latvia. I can see why Sweden chose that strategy, but I call(ed) it dissapointing because I expected an attacking Swedish team (they have the players for it) and a beatiful game of football like NLs vs. Czech Rep and Sweden vs. Denmark both were.

Here in the NLs, about 90% of the people would ask for the coach's head (figure of speech) if he played defensively. People did after the famous Robben-substitution against the Czech Rep at 2-1 up.

Plus, I had Sweden put up as my darkhorse to reach the final and them losing to this weak Dutch team made me look stupid...

[Desnudo]

I don't think it was just the Dutch playing bad. I think Portugal schooled them. Figo, Deco, Ronaldo, etc.. Just too many brilliant players with too much pace and technical ability. If Figo can play pissed off in the finals, I don't think there's any way they can lose.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I don't think it was just the Dutch playing bad. I think Portugal schooled them. Figo, Deco, Ronaldo, etc.. Just too many brilliant players with too much pace and technical ability. If Figo can play pissed off in the finals, I don't think there's any way they can lose.

Perhaps, but the game against Portugal, the Czechs and Sweden, the Dutch team I saw was definatly the worst I've seen since I started watch the Dutch football team play in early 1993.

I am still amazed that the worst team in a decade can reach the semi's (kinda like how Germany reached the WC2002 final). To me, It was all about a good keeper, a scoring striker, a great left winger and two midfielder occasionally doing something smart.

[3ric]

Sweden can't play attacking football, it just isn't our mentality. Safety first. The Bulgaria game was an exception that proves the rule. Heck, we're playing cautious against San Marino for crying out loud.

[Katon]

Was the Bulgaria game an exception? I remember it as Sweden taking advantage of an incredibly poor offside trap on the break, which is not exactly attacking football.

I definitely agree about the Dutch team - Van Nistelrooij did a decent job of finishing, but the only players who I think really looked like what you'd expect from a Dutch team were Van der Sar and Robben. Very much looking forward to Chelsea's left wing next year. Our backup will be one of the best three or four in the league.

[3ric]

Yes, pretty much an exception - I've never before seen the Swedish national team exploit offside traps with that kind of passes into open space. Ljungberg's finally got the chance to use his speed the way he can playing for Arsenal.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Yes, pretty much an exception - I've never before seen the Swedish national team exploit offside traps with that kind of passes into open space. Ljungberg's finally got the chance to use his speed the way he can playing for Arsenal.

I heard the Dutch commentary call Sweden a team playing more British (kick 'n' rush?) then England did this tournament.


For the Dutch team, it seems we're in some sort of transition period. The older players of the 1995-2000 success generation is leaving one by one after Dennis Bergkamp set the tone 3 years ago.
First string of "casualties": Frank de Boer, Ronald de Boer, Jaap Stam, Marc Overmars and Paul Bosvelt (who joint the team around 1999).
Possibly next up: Phillip Cocu, Edwin van der Sar, second goalie Ronald Waterreus and super-sub Pierre van Hooijdonk.

What remains is the generation 1975/1976 (Westerveld; Ricksen, Melchiot, Paauwe, Van Bronckhorst; Van Bommel, Kluivert, Seedorf; Makaay, Van Nistelrooij, Zenden), a few older players (Reiziger, Davids, Hasselbaink), the new generation (Van der Vaart, Heitinga, Robben, Sneijder, Bouma, Nigel de Jong, Van Persie, Hofland, Kuijt) and two new goalkeepers.