Euro 2004 Discussion

[Coder]

Can't help but feeling bad for Becks.. he wasn't very prominent during the first 90 minutes, but fabulous during extra time. He was everywhere, defense, in the air, crossing, free kicks and corners (of course). Then the penaltyshot

[Crapshoot]

See 1998 World Cup- Also known as the David Beckham-Diego Simeone "how to earn a place in Hollywood" showdown..

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Thank you Comcast. Ricardo makes the save and then the PPV goes black.

Same thing happened to me. The outcome was already determined though. England showed a lot of heart coming back from Rui Costa's goal in ET. Everyone on the field was dead tired. I also thought they showed a lot of heart against that referee. He seemed to be having some problems with consistancy tonight. I'm still not sure about that 90th minute "foul" either.

I'm not sure if the extra day of preparation for Portugal made a difference or not, but England looked tired (expecially the midfield) throughout the second half and extra time. I think it was probably a bad thing for Owen to score so soon into the game - England pretty much shut down after that, and I never thought they could defend 87 minutes against Portugal. Portugal had to make it interesting though, as they haven't been able to shoot on goal throughout the entire tournament. Good luck to them now.

[Critch]

Yay, now I can relax and enjoy the tournament safe in the knowledge that the English can't win. Every tournament I believe the BBC that they've got a great team and a great chance, I get worried they might win, and then there's the relief when they finally get knocked out. Long may it continue.

Best commentary quotes so far and "Zidane, he's a bit like Paul Scholes" during the first game against France, and "There isn't anythng that Zidane can do that Wayne Rooney can't do better" during the England v Croatia game

[mattwakeman]

Well that really hurt to watch...again. We played too poorly to be able to say that we deserved to win but I would really love to know just why that goal was disallowed.

But we have seen time and time again in this competition teams take a 1 goal lead and then just sit back and try to defend it against waves of attacks. Take the game to the opposition and make it safe.

Penalties really suck and what makes it worse is that as a Birmingham fan in both '96 and here the player that missed the last pen plays for Aston Villa...can't imagine the boys at St. Andrews being too kind to Vassell this season....damn....

[scooter]

Well, the ENGLISH broadcast is going to be a little bias - that's to be expected. England did not have a top team. They had a good team that got to the knockout stages (where anything can happen). The injury to Wayne Rooney was unfortunate (if we were the Italian press, we'd all be talking about Valente's malicious attack on Rooney!). His ability to play in the hole in front of the defense and hold up the ball really was the key to the way England had played in the last two games. His loss so early in game, really hurt England (I was glad to see Sven went to Vassell instead of Heskey). They went back into their defensive shell, and when they did get the ball, they just pumped it forward hoping the forwards could get hold of it.

Did England deserve to win? No. Did Portugal show they deserved to be in the semi-finals? I don't think so either.

Edit - Oh, and Figo should be sent home from the tournament. He went off the pitch like a little baby - just the way you want your Captain to act!

[mattwakeman]

I'm not so sure that Hesky might not have been the better option (although hindsight is always 20/20). Vassell and Owen are just so similar and since the midfield showed absolutely no inclination to support them (team orders?) a bigger man to hold the ball up may have given the defense some respite. Losing Rooney definitely hurt but not being able to 1) pass the ball or 2) keep the ball were much bigger factors.

The ref is still a gimp though...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by scooter

Same thing happened to me. The outcome was already determined though.

Actually they cut off right before the last shot that won it for Portugal. Unless you mean that there was no way Portugal was losing after England missed. Looking at the time, apparently they give 3 hours for a match and then something else is on PPV so you get cutoff. I'm definitely calling in to complain because this can't happen again. It's certainly possible there'll be another OT/PK game.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by scooter

Edit - Oh, and Figo should be sent home from the tournament. He went off the pitch like a little baby - just the way you want your Captain to act!

Did you notice how much better Portugal played once he was off? Whoever that winger was that was subbed on was fantastic. All they need is Deco and Ronaldo to make plays, I think Figo's time is past.

[scooter]

I've got Comcast too, and they cut it off after 3 hours. I was disappointed as well, but I guess if I had planned to watch the Professional Wrestling special that was scheduled to be on at that time and it wasn't on because of "some damn soccer game", I'd have been disappointed as well.

Portugal actually brought on Postiga for Figo. John Motson was quick to point out that Postiga had only scored 2 goals all season for Tottenham, and then shortly thereafter he scores Portugal's tying goal. So much for being in form! Figo has really disappointed me in this tournament. He's moody and is always looking to the referee to call a foul for him. He still has a few good moves with the ball, but he looks really tired (as do a lot of the players from the bigger clubs). He doesn't play any defense, he doesn't track back, he has wasted every free kick opportunity that Portugal have gotten. His display in walking off the field (behind the goal) after being substituted and heading straight into the tunnel was inexcusable. I don't think he was even there to see his team win it in the shootout. Big Phil doesn't take too much crap or worry too much about the "politics" of coaching a national team, so I wouldn't be surprised if Figo didn't start in their next match. Had Portugal lost in the shootout, that probably would have been Figo's exit on the international stage - something to think about.

[daedalus]

Scolari is simply f'n amazing. Portugal has the "home" advantage but they seems to have come into the tournament with the same "underachieving" reputation that Spain does and, yet, they're moving on in spite of, perhaps, not playing great football.

I agree with you, scooter. I don't think Scolari really gives a crap about the "politics" and I'm damn glad of it. If the other players have played better, then they should start ahead of Figo. 'Sides, it'll be fun to watch him pout.

[Critch]

That was a good goal Michael Owen put away. He's had a hard time on the field recently and I'd have bet he'd have been close to the top of the scapegoat list without that goal.

Owen's and Rui Costa's goal were top drawer.

[Mac Howard]

>Scolari is simply f'n amazing.

And Eriksson is a f'n idiot!

Even with the best defence in the world it is dubious to try to sit on a goal for 87 minutes. With England's midfield of four attacking players it's idiotic! The attacking game against Croatia now looks like an aberration, Eriksson's negativity took over yet again.

Add to that a perfectly good goal on 90 minutes disallowed and then a third penalty miss in a row for Beckham and it seems the fates had it in for England yet again. Four times in fourteen years they've exited World/Euro Cup Finals competitions on penalties

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

And Eriksson is a f'n idiot!

I think he's hugely overrated. I don't understand why the FA is so hard up for him.

Just a thought . . . in spite of the fact that he's a Spurs, it's hard not to wonder if Defoe might not have made that penalty.

[Critch]

hxxp://nothingbut90s.com/humour/engerland.mp3

[MIJB#19]

The Dutch tv showed Beckham's penalty about ten times in slow motion.
It turns out that the balls moved to the right at the split-second Beckham set his left foot on the penalty spot, making converting the penalty impossible.

Of course, it only happened to Beckham, but a pitch that not-prepared for penalty shootouts should be banned for the tournament the way Totti was kicked for three games.

And England with penalties:
I still remember 1996 when England beat Spain. England are not losing all the time, unlike some overseas neighbour to the southeast...

[Alf]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

England are not losing all the time, unlike some overseas neighbour to the southeast...

Southeast overseas from Netherlands.... <= I need another hint

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Alf

Southeast overseas from Netherlands.... <= I need another hint

I was hintingto a neighbour of England... :o

[Darkiller]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

>


Even with the best defence in the world it is dubious to try to sit on a goal for 87 minutes.

The best defense in the world ??? are you kidding me ?
2 goals versus france
2 goals versus croatia
2 goals versus Portugal

6 goals in 4 games....talk about the best defense in the world.
I agree England can score at any time, but the defense can be outscored anytime as well. And that, even when all 10 players comeback on defense to form a block and stop playing (as it was the case Versus France).

Plus, David "Calamity" James is probably the worst international keeper in the world...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Plus, David "Calamity" James is probably the worst international keeper in the world...

That's the fault of premier league teams for buying foreigners as first, second and third choice goalies.

[Darkiller]

exactly.
It's always been the case in England, always had a problem with goalies.

Even before, they had to keep Peter Shilton until he was 41 or 42 years old because there was no one to replace him !

[Northwood_DK]

Looks like the reff did the right thing.

[MIJB#19]

Boy, are the English media acting like they are bad losers or what?
It was a 100% clear call, the goalkeeper was attacked in the goalkeeper area were opposing players are not allowed to attack him.
Heck, if the goalie had been one metre away and Terry had stood in between, the goal had to be disallowed.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Northwood_DK

Looks like the reff did the right thing.

yeah, there is a blatant foul on Terry by Campbell

[Alf]

This one was sent to me by an Englishman coworker

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Alf

IMAGE

This one was sent to me by an Englishman coworker

Gotto love how Zidane's name is misspelled!

[MIJB#19]

You know what I find funny?
On the Dutch music charts, a Czech song is moving up fast to become the #1 summer hit!

[Francis_Cole]

clear foul on the keeper.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

That's the fault of premier league teams for buying foreigners as first, second and third choice goalies.

What came first, the chicken or the egg? I think a large part of the reason Premiership teams buy foreign goalies is because there aren't any good English ones. It could be that this practice blocks young talent from coming through, but the only English 'keeper prospect I can think of who's got any real competition for his slot is Chris Kirkland and his problems have been as much to do with injury as with Jerzy Dudek.

[RPI-Fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Boy, are the English media acting like they are bad losers or what?
It was a 100% clear call, the goalkeeper was attacked in the goalkeeper area were opposing players are not allowed to attack him.
Heck, if the goalie had been one metre away and Terry had stood in between, the goal had to be disallowed.

Not arguing anything about the specific call in the England game, but your statement in general.

That's not true. I just ref'ed a game the other day; ball floated into the area, attacker got into position, stood still and waited for the ball, the keeper came rushing out and clamored him over without ever touching the ball. There's no choice in that case but to call a PK. The attacking player fairly earned position, and did nothing to interfere with the keeper. The keeper is allowed to foul attackers in the air (which is stupid, IMO), but he has to get the ball, in any case.

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

exactly.
It's always been the case in England, always had a problem with goalies.

Don't really agree with that. Before Shilton they had Clemence who was excellent, before that Banks who was one of the best in the world. Shilton didn't keep getting caps cos he was their best, he kept getting caps cos he wouldn't retire and they didn't want to drop a legend. Woods was a good keeper, not as good as Banks/Shilton/Clemence, but still a good quality keeper. Martyn was good international class too.

It's fairly recent that England have had keeper problems, in my opinion.

[Critch]

Dola,

We should be more supportive of Calamity James, he once blamed his poor form at Liverpool on spending too many late nights playing computer games. He's a fellow geek.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

Not arguing anything about the specific call in the England game, but your statement in general.

That's not true. I just ref'ed a game the other day; ball floated into the area, attacker got into position, stood still and waited for the ball, the keeper came rushing out and clamored him over without ever touching the ball. There's no choice in that case but to call a PK. The attacking player fairly earned position, and did nothing to interfere with the keeper. The keeper is allowed to foul attackers in the air (which is stupid, IMO), but he has to get the ball, in any case.

Then, I stand corrected by the expert.
Thanks!

[3ric]

Vive la France!

[3ric]

Uh-oh... Greece scores in the 65th minute, France trails 0-1!

Superb header by Charisteas.

[SirFozzie]

utter shock. are you kidding me?

[3ric]

Louis Saha subbed on for Trezeguet, who's been a disappointment in the entire tournament.

[3ric]

Rothen in for Pires. France are really pushing forward, but aren't getting any clear chances against a massive Greek defensive wall.

[3ric]

It's over. Greece advances to the semis! What a shocker!

[BreizhManu]

really deserved

[Katon]

So what does Sweden-Netherlands have to do to top the first two quarterfinals?

It strikes me that what Greece did to France and Portugal is exactly what England were trying to do to them - with one key difference: Greece knew how to play defensive football. England packed eight men into the box and prayed; Greece were much calmer and more organized.

[scooter]

Greece deserved that win. They looked the more dangerous team throughout. And if Thierry wants to learn how to score off a header, he should play back the tape on Charisteas' goal - that's the way you do it!

Not only should Greece be proud of the win, they should be proud of the effort they put in. They were always first to the loose balls and their man-marking was very effective. I was impressed with their fitness level - they ran the whole match and still looked fresh after 90 minutes (unlike England yesterday). Their tackling was also superb - I don't know how many times I said to myself "nice tackle".

France on the other hand reminded me of their opening game at WC2002 against Senegal. They looked like they came out for a training game and were surprised by the intensity of their opponents. Then they were never able to come to terms with it. I also didn't understand why they had Henry out near midfield getting the ball with his back to the goal. Yes, he does have the opportunity to turn and use his pace to get past the defender, but every time he tried, they either tackled him or one of the centerbacks came over and cut him off. I wonder if France would have played better if they thought they were playing a top-ten team, but then when they got to the field Greece were there. Saha did bring in some energy, but the other subs were disappointing.

[Alf]

I started to believe we could win during the 20 minutes of the second half, but after the Greek goal, we continued to suck as we did since the beginning of the tournament.

Now is the "name the new French coach" game. Tigana, Fernandez, Domenech... maybe Wenger would be interested to lead the team to World Cup 2006 in Germany.

In any case, congrats to Greece ! A well deserved victory.

I am now a Nederlande supporter ! Go get my "oranje" T-Shirt

[scooter]

I was a little disappointed with the way the Greeks played out the end of the game. A few of the players embellished their injuries to work the clock (I realize everyone does some of this, but it sure seemed like there was always someone on the deck rolling around in pain). The worst incident though was in about the 87th minute where there was a Greek player rolling around and France were attacking, so they kicked it out. Instead of throwing it in and kicking it back out for France, the Greek player lobbed the ball all the way down into the corner for Barthez to retrieve to restart - very unsporting!

[Kosta]

Maybe if France wasn't so dumb enough to give away fouls late in the game things would have been better... can't believe the French were still making silly tackles in injury-time.

A great win for Greece and deserved (although I am biased).

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Katon

What came first, the chicken or the egg? I think a large part of the reason Premiership teams buy foreign goalies is because there aren't any good English ones. It could be that this practice blocks young talent from coming through, but the only English 'keeper prospect I can think of who's got any real competition for his slot is Chris Kirkland and his problems have been as much to do with injury as with Jerzy Dudek.

I have a question (as oppose to an argument, since I don't know enough) about this . . .

How much of this has to do with the lack of upcoming talent and how much of it has to do with the lack of chances? Can't speak for any other team but I do wish Wenger would give some of the young 'keepers chances. Seems like he's *beginning* to give some of the younger position players some first team chances now but not really seeing it with goalkeepers. I think that was one of the reasons that one goalkeeping coach left, if I understand correctly.

[Darkiller]

Man I'm really sad today...
France has been playing some bad football all tournament. Our eliminiation in the Quarter-finals is deserved. Nothing else to add.

Yesterday night, after the game, I went out for a one hour walk downtown Paris just to get some fresh air...I was and still am absolutely devastated.

I don't even want to watch these week-end games and I think I'll go to work today to avoid thinking about this debacle.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by daedalus

I have a question (as oppose to an argument, since I don't know enough) about this . . .

How much of this has to do with the lack of upcoming talent and how much of it has to do with the lack of chances? Can't speak for any other team but I do wish Wenger would give some of the young 'keepers chances. Seems like he's *beginning* to give some of the younger position players some first team chances now but not really seeing it with goalkeepers. I think that was one of the reasons that one goalkeeping coach left, if I understand correctly.

I don't know; hence the chicken-or-the-egg comment. I will note, however, that there are a lot of teams trying to get first-team experience for prospects (in general, not necessarily in goal) by loaning them out, even to other Premiership sides. Look at Jermaine Pennant or Carlton Cole. If you want a goalkeeping example, look at Lenny Pidgely, the best English 'keeper prospect in the Chelsea system, who just spent a thoroughly unexceptional year out in Watford. I can't think of anyone who's been all that impressive even out on loan.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Man I'm really sad today...
France has been playing some bad football all tournament. Our eliminiation in the Quarter-finals is deserved. Nothing else to add.

Yesterday night, after the game, I went out for a one hour walk downtown Paris just to get some fresh air...I was and still am absolutely devastated.

I don't even want to watch these week-end games and I think I'll go to work today to avoid thinking about this debacle.

Don't be sad, the fact that all five top nations are out should be a signal to (inter)national football organizations that the season is too long and too exhausting.
If top club reserve players advance the way they do with the 6 remaining teams, it's a claer signal.

Cut leagues to 30 games, shorten cup tournaments to far less then 10 games and the continental competitions are too big and should not count much more then 10 games.

What is interesting is that the remaining teams are all from countries with a population of 10 to 20 million.

[airulf]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

What is interesting is that the remaining teams are all from countries with a population of 10 to 20 million.

Denmark has a population of only 5 million. Sweden around 8 or 9 million.