We have a NBA RIOT in DETROIT! (The 2004 Palace Fight)

[GrantDawg]

As I read this, SNL had the Pacers and Pistons fight it out during a skit.

[Eaglesfan27]

Yep. This incident is going to be fodder for comedians for a while I imagine. I'm sure David Stern is thrilled.

[Easy Mac]

I don't think anyone is saying what Artest did is right, but what is right and what I would do in the same situation isn't always equal... If I have to, I'm not alwys going to make the right choice, sometimes consciously.

However, am I the only one annoyed that people in Detroit (the organization, writers, police) keep saying only ice or a water bottle were thrown? It was beer. If it were ice or water, then there's no way I charge at people, but in my opinion, there isn't much that is more degrading than a person throwing a beer at me. The only thing I can think of that is worse is someone throwing a cup of piss. To me, throwing a beer at me is as low as it can get. You can punch me in front of my girlfriend, and I'll think twice before hitting back, but you throw a beer, all bets are off... to me its just such a low liquid to be tossed around. If you're man enough to throw a beer and be a punk, then you're man enough to get punched in the face and get hit like a punk. Doesn't make it the right thing to do, but its reality.

And besides from the fat guy, did Artest even punch anyone? He shoved the one guy, and he was restrained almost the whole time in the stands.

As to Wallace... having watched the foul over and over... he was barely touched... what a baby.

[Ksyrup]

Sorry if this has been covered, but no way in hell am I reading this LAS (long-as shit).

In the case of multiple suspensions, does the NBA do what MLB does, and allow a team to "schedule" suspensions so as not to completely screw the team? So the 3 Pacers would each get 10-15 games, but not have to serve it all together?

Artest was clearly over the line, regardless of what started the whole thing. Wallace should be suspended for the Ts and the on-court crap before the riot, but if Artest just covers up and/or tries to get off the court (i.e., just like they do in MLB), then none of the off-the-court crap happens.

Anyone think, based on Artest's comments last week, that he saw this as a good opportunity to get the month of rest he was looking for?

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Anyone think, based on Artest's comments last week, that he saw this as a good opportunity to get the month of rest he was looking for?

That is giving him way too much credit.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

However, am I the only one annoyed that people in Detroit (the organization, writers, police) keep saying only ice or a water bottle were thrown? It was beer. If it were ice or water, then there's no way I charge at people, but in my opinion, there isn't much that is more degrading than a person throwing a beer at me. The only thing I can think of that is worse is someone throwing a cup of piss. To me, throwing a beer at me is as low as it can get. You can punch me in front of my girlfriend, and I'll think twice before hitting back, but you throw a beer, all bets are off... to me its just such a low liquid to be tossed around. If you're man enough to throw a beer and be a punk, then you're man enough to get punched in the face and get hit like a punk. Doesn't make it the right thing to do, but its reality.

From the 100 replays of it that I've seen, I saw no (or very little) liquid come out of that cup. It looked like just ice coming out of that blue cup. Although, in my mind that doesn't make as big a difference to me as it does to you.

[Eaglesfan27]

Another joke about this on SNL's "Weekend Update."

[Bubba Wheels]

Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca was just shown on ESPN stating that O'Neal
was observed by a Policeman in the tunnel AFTER the TV brawl cold-cocking a fan. There is at least one very big criminal/civil trial loser coming out of this soon.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

its just such a low liquid to be tossed around

this cracks me up.

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, its just all getting out of control now. News reports of both Lou Holtz AND President Bush getting in the middle of scuffles. Holtz at his last regular season game with South Carolina in a brawl with Clemson, and President Bush reaching in the middle of Chilean security to pull his lead Secret Service man out to keep with him.

[21C]

Someone mentioned putting nets around the court. It reminded me of a basketball filler piece I saw on TV about the origins of the game. It showed games being played inside cages of chicken wire.

I found some links that mentioned this:
http://www.tierischgutdrauf.de/pages...tory/index.jsp
http://slam.canoe.ca/CenturyInReview/basketball.html

"Meanwhile, the wire or net cages that soon fenced off the playing fields were erected not only to protect the spectators from the players, but also to protect the players from audience members, who sometimes threw bottles and nails onto the court. Referees and umpires equipped with guns as well as whistles was nothing unusual."

History going to repeat itself?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Sorry if this has been covered, but no way in hell am I reading this LAS (long-as shit).

In the case of multiple suspensions, does the NBA do what MLB does, and allow a team to "schedule" suspensions so as not to completely screw the team? So the 3 Pacers would each get 10-15 games, but not have to serve it all together?

Artest was clearly over the line, regardless of what started the whole thing. Wallace should be suspended for the Ts and the on-court crap before the riot, but if Artest just covers up and/or tries to get off the court (i.e., just like they do in MLB), then none of the off-the-court crap happens.

Anyone think, based on Artest's comments last week, that he saw this as a good opportunity to get the month of rest he was looking for?

I'm guessing this will play out like an MLB suspension. Basically, one guy will begin immediately while they drag their feet on the two appeals so that all 3 are not out at any one time.

SI

[ISiddiqui]

I guess I'm a little late in posting this, but everyone is a jackass here... fans, players, etc. Total screw up by everyone involved. I hear the fans that threw the stuff as well as the players may get charged with battery.

Though, I find it funny that the guy Artest went after wasn't even the guy who threw the cup!

[SirFozzie]

Here's the thing.

Leaving the bench durring a melee=Automatic one game suspension.

Only one player TOTAL on both teams didn't leave the bench during the whole thing. One of the Pacers.

This means, that yes, there will be staggered suspension fun for all.

The Pacers today had to pull guys off the injury list to make the league mandated mininum of 8 players. They had six healthy players!

This probably means, that it will be served in groups of 2-4, staggered alphabetically.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca was just shown on ESPN stating that O'Neal
was observed by a Policeman in the tunnel AFTER the TV brawl cold-cocking a fan. There is at least one very big criminal/civil trial loser coming out of this soon.

Weren't there cameras on O'Neal in the tunnel?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Only one player TOTAL on both teams didn't leave the bench during the whole thing. One of the Pacers.

Actually, I'd read that it was Tayshawn Prince of the Pistons.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I want to apologize whole-heartedly to SirFozzie for getting personal last night. There was no excuse for that, and it was wrong. As angry as I was at the opinions and insults being hurled at Detroit fans, I should never have said the things I did.

Still working on catching up on the last 2 pages but kudos to Schmidty.

[Chief Rum]

My opinion, if anyone cares, on all of the following culprits in the fight:

Ben Wallace: Obviously should not have reacted to Artest's foul the way he did, and he should get a healthy suspension for both pushing Artest and for requiring several players and officials to come between him and Artest in the ensuing players-only melee. Based on past NBA punishment history, this is probably about 3-5 games, as has been suggested.

As for his responsibility in the following riots, while I certainly agree that he has to bare a bit of the blame for his role in the actions that led to it, I believe intent is important here, and I don't think any reasonable person could conclude that Wallace could reasonably expect throwing a towel at or pushing Artest would result in what happened last night. Therefore, I would push more toward the latter end of the above suspension range becuase of the unintended results of his actions, but I can't really put as much blame on him as TroyF and some others would.

The fan Artest first attacked: Nothing (at least not from what I saw on tape). He was acting in self-defense (and he didn't do much anyway, since Artest proved to be much stronger than him, of course). I am assuming he was not the source of the beer/ice cup whatever. If he was, go to that section instead. He probably has a strong right to sue Artest.

The fan who threw the beer at Artest: I am assuming this to be that big oaf in the Pistons relpica uni that came to help out the guy Artest attacked. He was punched by Artest in the stands after Artest was pulled off of the first guy. This guy should get felony assault & battery (multiple counts), inciting a riot, public drunkenness, and disturbing the peace. He should be in jail. And not for three-six months. He should be locked away for at least a couple of years.

Fans attacking Pacers in stands: Felony assault & battery, jail time as well, if they actually reached a player and assaulted them. This should be noted as different from those people who were innocent and attacked by a Pacer (such as that first guy Artest went after). You have a perfect right to defend yourself from unavoidable attack, and some of the fans were within their rights to act as they did. Most, however, went over to pile on the players in the stands, and those guys should all be in prison.

Fan who threw the chair at O'Neal: Not just felony assault (no battery, didn't hit O'Neal). Assault with a deadly weapon. I am serious. 5-7 years in prison. What a fucking dumbshit.

Fans who dumped things on the Pacers as they exited the court: Assault, inciting a riot, disturbing the peace, the "lighter" crimes in this mess. But the more serious charge--their tickets to the Pistons (if they are seasont icket holders and they probably are) should be revoked, no money refunded. They should be placed on a list by the Pistons and the NBA and banned from ever attending an NBA game for the rest of their lives. And a judge should order that any violation of this "restraining order" from NBA arenas to be punishable with immediate jail time. These "fans" should never, never ever get to see a basketball game live again in their lives (this obviously also goes for the more serious offenders, but they have more serious crimes to be concerned about right now).

As laughable as it may seem for rich players to do this, I also believe all of the names of those people should be submitted to the players, and those players should sue those fans for everything they have (you know the players are getting sued, no reason it can't work both ways).

The fan who challenged Artest on the court: This guy should be charged with Unfathomable Stupidity. Since that crime does not exist, he should be charged whatever would apply in this (criminal trespassing?), as well as assault, inciting a riot, disturbing the peace, etc.

I do not agree, however, that his coming on the court means he is fair game for the players (anymore than I felt the players were fair game to fans in the stands when they went in there). That's one of the stupidest arguments I have ever read on this board, and has to rank up there as one of the worst beliefs of the ridiculous machismo that has riddled this thread at many points.

Jermaine O'Neal: If that fat guy was about to take a swing at a helpless Artest, that is one thing. But he was surrounded by security and Artest was well out of reach. O'Neal's attack was blatant, brutally applied and completely unjustified. He did not for one second consider these facts nor the fact he is twice the size of the guy and that he was blindsiding him.

O'Neal's attack was on the level of being murderous. At the very least, felony assault & battery, to the max of the law. He should be in jail for 2-3 years. Suspended for the year (at least he will be free to prepare for his trial then).

Stephen Jackson: I personally feel he was one of the worst instigators in the stands. I also feel his actions helped continue to provoke both Wallace and the crowd. He should also face the same sort of crimes that the fans who leaped in on Artest in the stands should face. That said, given that he could be said to be "defending Artest" and even acting in self-defense in some cases, I would suspend him for 15 games, and let the Detroit DA's office pursue whatever they would with him in the court system.

Ron Artest: The whole reason for this whole thing. There is simply no excuse for what he did. Some people here have talked about the unintended consequences of Wallace pushing Artest and throwing the towel at him. Well, what of the unintended consequences of Artest also giving a cheapshot on Wallace to get a reaction out of him? Why is Wallace to be punished for unintended consequences, blamed for the whole thing, but not Artest? Ridiculous. Anyone blaming Wallace as much as Artest needs to seriously evaluate all of the actions here, because they seem content to pick and choose whatever infractions work for their point. For his whole "body of work" in this riot, from cheapshot (weak as it was) to charging into the stands, Artest is well beyond Wallace or anyone else directly involved in this.

One of the things I have only seen mentioned in passing that should really be focused on was exactly what Artest was doing on that scorer's table. Why are people thinking he was just staying out of the fight, like he was a good guy or something? Did you honestly watch the tape and pay attention toh im, to his body language? He didn't jump on the table to escape Wallace or the melee, he laid back on the table luxuriously, putting his hands behind his head, smiling smugly at the scrap in front of him, well knowing the irate Wallace couldn't reach him. The guy was blatantly provoking Wallace, and anyone who has been in a scrap knows it just seeing the tape.

I'm not excusing what the fans did next to provoke Artest's reaction, but I think that languishing on the scorer's table was THE PIVOTAL DECISON in this entire affair--even more important than Artest's charging into the stands. He willfully provoked an obviously enraged Wallace, with negligent consideration for what reaction this would get from the fans he "forgot" were within reach of him.

This is not to excuse his decision to go into the stands, though, as less important. Not only was this amazingly stupid, but it was the worst criminal act he made, if there is a maximum "inciting riot" crime, that action should draw it, as well as felony assault and battery, multiple accounts (although I feel much of his actions actually in the stands can be termed as self-defense).

He should also be charged with A&B for the attack on the fat guy. Yes, the guy was coming for him, but he still hadn't actually swung at Artest--the guy just clubbed him. For that action (another unwise decision by Artest), he should also be prosecuted to the fullest extent and share a cell with his buddy O'Neal (so who's the bitch in that arrangement? ).

As for the NBA, he's gone. Banned from the league a la Pete Rose. Although I would support a reconsideration of his ban after a year or two (like Tarpley for all of his drug issues in the 90s), and assuming he had made other reparations or satisfied certain considerations for return.

vtbub, it looks like whatever I was drinking last night has run out.

CR

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

A Novel by Chief Rum

Good stuff and agree with everything you said. Makes too much sense to happen, though.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My opinion, if anyone cares, on all of the following culprits in the fight:

You forgot one:

Stephen A. Smith: Shall be forever banned from television, and must pay restitution to all who have happened upon a show he was on. Something to the tune of several thousand per viewer for the emotional pain and suffering. Not really for anything around this incident, mainly that it gave him more air time on ESPN and reminded me how dreadful an experience it is to watch him.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by mckerney

You forgot one:

Stephen A. Smith: Shall be forever banned from television, and must pay restitution to all who have happened upon a show he was on. Something to the tune of several thousand per viewer for the emotional pain and suffering. Not really for anything around this incident, mainly that it gave him more air time on ESPN and reminded me how dreadful an experience it is to watch him.

Agreed 100%.

CR

[CraigSca]

What would be interesting is if they DIDN'T stagger the suspensions, causing one or both teams to forfeit their next game. Then again...what do the players care - that would just penalize the fans and the team, while the players would get an additional day off. Forget I said anything.

[CraigSca]

dola

Wouldn't suspending Artest actually be what he wants? Maybe they should force the poor guy to work clean-up duty at the Palace after every event. THAT would piss him off.

[Bomber]

Here is an article that covers a scenario similar to what I think is going to happen,:

The NBA precedent was established in 1995, when Houston's Vernon Maxwell received a 10-game suspension for running into the stands and punching a fan.

Chances are, though, that the Mad Max precedent will be applied only to the cases of Jackson and O'Neal, who followed Artest into the crowd and neither of whom has a past to rival Artest's. It will be hard for the league to justify suspensions of longer than 10 games for those two, even though the furor of this incident far outstrips what Maxwell generated.

Given Artest's history of chaos-making, by contrast, it's far more likely that his sentence will be closer in length to another unsavory episode from '95. We're referring, of course, to the sight of Manchester United's Eric Cantona -- perhaps the most famous face in the most watched sports league on the planet -- leaping over an advertising board to launch a kung fu kick at a Crystal Palace supporter.

It was the first time in the history of English football that a player had attacked a spectator.

And Cantona, in spite of his fame and his club's stature, was banned for eight months.

[Bomber]

Well maybe not.

Ron Artest will be suspended by the NBA for 30 games according to a report on Fox Sports Radio. Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of the Pacers will also be out of action for 20 games each while Pistons star Ben Wallace will miss five games for their roles in the fight in Detroit Friday night.

Fred McLeod, pbp voice of the Pistons on FSN Detroit, reported on the suspensions during a live radio interview on GameTime react with Ben Maller and Chris Landry on Fox Sports Radio Saturday night.

http://www.benmaller.com/

[Router Help]

I see most of the national media is still saying that the players are suspended indefinitely, but I saw on the local news last night that the suspensions would be as follows:
# Ron Artest -- 30 Games
# Stephen Jackson -- 20 Games
# Jermaine O'Neal -- 20 Games
Ben Wallace -- 5 Games

Here is a link from the local station's site: http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports...02/detail.html

[Blackadar]

Nothing on ESPN yet. I wouldn't be surprised to see those punishments, but I wonder about the appeals process.

[Bomber]

I think appeals are definitely going to happen none of these punishments hold up to the Maxwell precedent. Even Big Ben shouldn't get more than 3 games.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Dola.

I want to apologize whole-heartedly to SirFozzie for getting personal last night. There was no excuse for that, and it was wrong. As angry as I was at the opinions and insults being hurled at Detroit fans, I should never have said the things I did.

Sorry I missed this one, earlier.

Apology accepted, and offered back as well.

Never meant to tar all Detroit fans with the brush that the few idiots at the Palace provided

[G-Man]

This event may give the NBA a "black eye" akin or worse than the last players strike. I think 30 games is not enough for Artest. However if he is held accountable by the law and receives just punishment (not like OJ and Kobe) then perhaps 30 games will suffice, after he is released from prison. I assume that the 30 games is without pay.

I am so tired of professional atheletes being given a "different standard" in our court system. It is time for an example to made and this incident can be that example. Professional atheletes because of their outrageous salaries cannot relate to the rest of the world, nor do most of them try or want to. I see this as causing the death of sports later in this century.

Why did this event occur. IMO, pure and unadulterated SELFISHNESS! Artest indulged his desires by committing the foul and rushing into the stands. Instead of being concerned with what this might do to his teammates, the NBA or any fans, he indulged his own foolish desires. Unfortunately this has become the way of far too many professional atheletes these days. Actually when reading this board one can see how selfishness is pervading society, American and Worldly!

If everyone one of us would think about someone other than ourselves before making any decision, and the impact of that decision (on others) this world would be a much happier and safer place to live in. I know I may seem a dreamer, but no I am rather a BELIEVER! Though these times may be dark their is still much light in this world. I for one refuse to let the darkness overwhelm me and I do pray that you all would try and do the same.

[The_herd]

Nice use of exclamation points.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by G-Man

This event may give the NBA a "black eye" akin or worse than the last players strike. I think 30 games is not enough for Artest. However if he is held accountable by the law and receives just punishment (not like OJ and Kobe) then perhaps 30 games will suffice, after he is released from prison. I assume that the 30 games is without pay.

I am so tired of professional atheletes being given a "different standard" in our court system. It is time for an example to made and this incident can be that example. Professional atheletes because of their outrageous salaries cannot relate to the rest of the world, nor do most of them try or want to. I see this as causing the death of sports later in this century.

Why did this event occur. IMO, pure and unadulterated SELFISHNESS! Artest indulged his desires by committing the foul and rushing into the stands. Instead of being concerned with what this might do to his teammates, the NBA or any fans, he indulged his own foolish desires. Unfortunately this has become the way of far too many professional atheletes these days. Actually when reading this board one can see how selfishness is pervading society, American and Worldly!

If everyone one of us would think about someone other than ourselves before making any decision, and the impact of that decision (on others) this world would be a much happier and safer place to live in. I know I may seem a dreamer, but no I am rather a BELIEVER! Though these times may be dark their is still much light in this world. I for one refuse to let the darkness overwhelm me and I do pray that you all would try and do the same.

I agree! If the fan would have thought about the impact his decision to throw his beer on Ron Artest would have on everyone in the Palace Friday night and not indulge his foolish desires, The Palace would have been a safer if not happier place.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

I agree! If the fan would have thought about the impact his decision to throw his beer on Ron Artest would have on everyone in the Palace Friday night and not indulge his foolish desires, The Palace would have been a safer if not happier place.

As the saying goes, "it takes two to tango" and I have no problem with similiar punishments being handed out to both the fan and Artest, say banning from NBA games for Life with a review every two years to reevaluate the situation.......

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by G-Man

I am so tired of professional atheletes being given a "different standard" in our court system.

If the court was setting Artest's punishment, it would probably be Probation and Community Service, FYI.

[rexallllsc]

I saw more footage today, and as bad as the fans were for Artest going off, as O'Nel for near the beginning of the tunnel, someone from about 2 feet away fit him with a cup full of something. To me, O'Neal shouldn't be suspended long at all. Everything he did was on the court, and to willing participants who challenged the players and threw crap at them.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I saw more footage today, and as bad as the fans were for Artest going off, as O'Nel for near the beginning of the tunnel, someone from about 2 feet away fit him with a cup full of something. To me, O'Neal shouldn't be suspended long at all. Everything he did was on the court, and to willing participants who challenged the players and threw crap at them.

Glad O'Neal didn't have a gun then. I mean, hey, the guy came on the court, so O'Neal woulda been perfectly justified in putting a cap in his ass, eh? Even, though, the guy wasn't even looking at him or threatening him, he coulda put him six feet unda. But that's all right--he's on the court!

CR

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Glad O'Neal didn't have a gun then. I mean, hey, the guy came on the court, so O'Neal woulda been perfectly justified in putting a cap in his ass, eh? Even, though, the guy wasn't even looking at him or threatening him, he coulda put him six feet unda. But that's all right--he's on the court!

CR

Baseball and Football have both adopted the mindset that if the guy is on the field, he's fair game. There's been several instances of idiots running on the field and getting clobbered, with a few cheap shots thrown in after the guy goes down.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Glad O'Neal didn't have a gun then. I mean, hey, the guy came on the court, so O'Neal woulda been perfectly justified in putting a cap in his ass, eh?

Under the circumstances, I don't think it would have bothered me a bit.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by The_herd

Baseball and Football have both adopted the mindset that if the guy is on the field, he's fair game. There's been several instances of idiots running on the field and getting clobbered, with a few cheap shots thrown in after the guy goes down.

That's great for them. Doesn't mean I have to agree. And I have a feeling the U.S. judicial system won't exactly take kindly to this vigilante mindset neither.

And if the fat man decides to press charges on O'Neal, they'll get their chance to weigh in, too.

I'm sorry, but there are only a few things that justify that attack. Simply stepping onto a court is not one of them.

CR

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Bomber

Given Artest's history of chaos-making, by contrast, it's far more likely that his sentence will be closer in length to another unsavory episode from '95. We're referring, of course, to the sight of Manchester United's Eric Cantona -- perhaps the most famous face in the most watched sports league on the planet -- leaping over an advertising board to launch a kung fu kick at a Crystal Palace supporter.

It was the first time in the history of English football that a player had attacked a spectator.

And Cantona, in spite of his fame and his club's stature, was banned for eight months.

[VPI97]

Breaking News
NBA Takes A Stand
The NBA responded harshly to the fight Friday in Detroit. Ron Artest will not play this year. Stephen Jackson will miss 30 games, Jermaine O'Neal 25, Ben Wallace six and Anthony Johnson five. Four others received one-game suspensions and fines.

[Neuqua]

Oh wow.

Ben only got 6?

[Chubby]

All the suspensions seem fair to me, the NBA finally does something right.

[The_herd]

And I'm sure a grievance is being filed by the Players Association right now, if there hasn't been one filed already.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Oh wow.

Ben only got 6?

He only have should gotten 2-3.

[Neuqua]

i love you schmidty, but no.

[DeToxRox]

Ben better start it tonight.

Our next three games: Charlotte, Charlotte, Cleveland. Makes sense to do it now.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Ben better start it tonight.

Our next three games: Charlotte, Charlotte, Cleveland. Makes sense to do it now.

I would imagine he will, while I think he should have gotten 3-4, I don't think 6 is unreasonable and considering their schedule he should just take it.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Chubby

I would imagine he will, while I think he should have gotten 3-4, I don't think 6 is unreasonable and considering their schedule he should just take it.

Yeah. Take 6, take as high a road as possible. Don't try appealing it. Just live with it and move on. That's all anyone can do.

Ben and Artest have a mutual friend who said Ben's really down about whats happening to Ron and Ben wants to apologize but the team attorneys say they shouldn't talk to each other until the legal aspects are over.

[CraigSca]

Artest out for the year with NO PAY?! Please, let this stick!