Death on Disney Ride

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

If you are ever speeding (even 10 miles over) and happen lose control, and die, I'll be the first person on this board to say, "I have no sympathy for Dan. He was doing something dangerous, and was an adult, therefor may his soul rot in hell".

(Note:

I don't want you to die, and I don't want you to rot in hell. Just making a point"

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

so that sympathy lands somewhere between shit & syphilis in the standard dictionary.

WWJD.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

(Note:

I don't want you to die, and I don't want you to rot in hell. Just making a point"

Apples and oranges.

Chances you'll die from speeding: minimal

Chances you'll die from trying to grab someone's legs while they are whizzing by at high speeds: high

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Apples and oranges.

Chances you'll die from speeding: minimal

Chances you'll die from trying to grab someone's legs while they are whizzing by at high speeds: high

exactly, at least have him not wearing his seat belt or something

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Apples and oranges.

Chances you'll die from speeding: minimal

Chances you'll die from trying to grab someone's legs while they are whizzing by at high speeds: high

Doesn't matter. Both are breaking the rules, and both are stupid. People in this thread are using the "breaking the rules, and new it was a risk", but when faced with an argument that doesn't suit them, they respond like you just did. It's kind of like the smoking thing that I mentioned to Jon.

By the way, I'm not worked up about this, so don't expect me to go into a Schmidy-rage.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Doesn't matter. Both are breaking the rules, and both are stupid. People in this thread are using the "breaking the rules, and new it was a risk", but when faced with an argument that doesn't suit them, they respond like you just did. It's kind of like the smoking thing that I mentioned to Jon.

By the way, I'm not worked up about this, so don't expect me to go into a Schmidy-rage.

I think your speeding comparason is way off.

A better one would be someone pulling a teen wolf surfing move and getting killed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I think for that reason maybe a little barbed wire might be prudent.

Except that the addition of barbed wire in certain areas (and depending upon jurisdiction) could open the company up to liability for injuries sustained even if the injured party was in the process of committing a criminal act such as trespassing.

Remember, we live in a country where people have been sued by burglars for injuries they received while illegally entering a home ... which is why I can't have really have barbed wire, spikes, etc. rigged on the various entry points to my house.

[BrianD]

This really isn't about breaking rules or existence of a risk. It is more about the magnitude of the risk and the potential benefit. Huge risk with dire consequences + no benefit to being successful = epic stupidity.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

If you are ever speeding (even 10 miles over) and happen lose control, and die, I'll be the first person on this board to say, "I have no sympathy for Dan. He was doing something dangerous, and was an adult, therefor may his soul rot in hell".

But I never said that about this child. Never said that he should rot in hell. No one ever deserves to die, but stupid people deserve to die more then others... It's an unfortunate event, hopefully one I would never have to deal with first hand.

If I die because I'm speeding I deserve it, I know/knew better and decided to not follow the law.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think your speeding comparason is way off.

A better one would be someone pulling a teen wolf surfing move and getting killed.

It doesn't matter. You can't have it both ways - You say that the signs and fence were there for a good reason. If you are going to say that, then you have to say that the laws are there for a good reason (safety), and breaking them is putting yourself in a dangerous situation.

[larrymcg421]

BTW, can anyone point to an article where it is confirmed that the boy was trying to jump up and touch someone's feet? People are treating this as a fact, but none of the articles I've read have confirmed that being the case. They just mention it as a possibility.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by BrianD

This really isn't about breaking rules or existence of a risk. It is more about the magnitude of the risk and the potential benefit. Huge risk with dire consequences + no benefit to being successful = epic stupidity.

I totally understand that, and agree. I think the thing that's really bothering me is the holier-than-thou stance of "I have no sympathy blah blah blah". I just don't get not having empathy for someone who screwed up, but wasn't intentionally trying hurt himself or anyone else. If it was a criminal who was armed and robbing a store, and did something "Darwin-ish", that's different.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I totally understand that, and agree. I think the thing that's really bothering me is the holier-than-thou stance of "I have no sympathy blah blah blah". I just don't get not having empathy for someone who screwed up, but wasn't intentionally trying hurt himself or anyone else. If it was a criminal who was armed and robbing a store, and did something "Darwin-ish", that's different.

umm, what do you think would have happened to the person whose leg he grabbed is he was succesfull?

[Marmel]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I knew there was a reason I love you man.

Thanks man, I just felt like dropping some F-bombs this morning. But seriously, I doubt this kid said, "Let's see what happens if I stand in front of this oncoming rollercoaster." It was probably more along the lines of, "Those track are pretty high up let's go mess around and see if we can scare somebody."

Maybe he was an asshole kid too, but I just didn't think a person could be so nonchalant about this happening to a pretty innocent kid. It wasn't like he was trying to hurt somebody else or commiting a crime (OK, JIMGA, go ahead and call trespassing a crime.)

Edited to add: I have no opinion on whether the park should be held responsible or not. Probably not, but I don't know, or care really.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I totally understand that, and agree. I think the thing that's really bothering me is the holier-than-thou stance of "I have no sympathy blah blah blah". I just don't get not having empathy for someone who screwed up, but wasn't intentionally trying hurt himself or anyone else. If it was a criminal who was armed and robbing a store, and did something "Darwin-ish", that's different.

I did say that I don't think this is Darwin-level stupid. I also think it is unfair to claim that this kid would have eventually killed others with his stupidity. This was a singularly spectacular stupid act. According to the second article posted, he climbed a fence to get into the park, and then climbed a fence to get under a ride. He didn't deserve to die, but the outcome was reasonable given the actions. I have sympathy for the family that the kid was dumb enough to put himself in that much danger. I'm not sure I've got much for the kid though...

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Marmel

Thanks man, I just felt like dropping some F-bombs this morning. But seriously, I doubt this kid said, "Let's see what happens if I stand in front of this oncoming rollercoaster." It was probably more along the lines of, "Those track are pretty high up let's go mess around and see if we can scare somebody."

Which puts in squarely in the same category as those who do things like steal stop signs - endangering folks around him.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

umm, what do you think would have happened to the person whose leg he grabbed is he was succesfull?

Still don't see confirmation that he was trying to do this...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Well, Engineers don't have data that include the amount of G's that would kill every person who might ever be born (and over 44" tall). You really are asking the impossible. There is simply NO activity for which anyone can guarantee a death rate of zero.

i've never died jacking off, thank you very much.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Which puts in squarely in the same category as those who do things like steal stop signs - endangering folks around him.

didn't someone just get a lengthy prison sentance for doing this and someone gettin killed because of it?

[Schmidty]

Things I know for sure:

No one will ever change anyone else's mind on FOFC. It's like trying to claw through a steel wall with your bare hands - pointless.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Still don't see confirmation that he was trying to do this...

c'mon, we all know if its on the internets it must be true.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Things I know for sure:

No one will ever change anyone else's mind on FOFC. It's like trying to claw through a steel wall with your bare hands - pointless.

true, but it's fun to try

[molson]

A couple of new tidbits I saw today

-There was another kid that was with the victim when this happened, who was uninjured.
-Police "have ruled out reports from witnesses who said Ferguson jumped the fences to retrieve a hat he lost while riding the coaster"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Latest version of the AJC article linked above

Highlights include:
-- no mention of the jumping-at-passengers, nor the hat/item retrieval, nor anything else for motive beyond "Jenkins told police investigators that rather then re-entering through the main gate, the two decided to scale the fences, which lead directly to the ride."

-- "After spending Saturday morning at the park, Asia Leeshawn Ferguson, 17, and David Jenkins, 19, his cousin, took a break in the parking lot." This description varies from the original version that mentioned them going off-site for lunch.

-- Toxicological exams were sent to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and would not be available for several weeks.. Those ought to be interesting.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Your the stupid one if you actualy think more fences or signs would have stopped the kid.

This kid was a fucking idiot, plain and simple. And so are you if you think anything different.

Never said or implied that it would, or he wasn't.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Logan

Yeah, a moat full of sharks with laser beams on their friggin heads might have been enough to do the trick.

Hell Yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

They could have slowed him down, allowing security personnel to stop him in time. But it doesn't have to be fences. Maybe a wall or even extra security camera trained on that area. Maybe an alarm system if anyone is in that danger zone.

Maybe....

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

If you are ever speeding (even 10 miles over) and happen lose control, and die, I'll be the first person on this board to say, "I have no sympathy for Dan. He was doing something dangerous, and was an adult, therefor may his soul rot in hell".

If I die doing something stupid by all means do this. Like I give a damn at that point; I'm dead. Plus, I'm not a hypocrite. If I do something stupid and die, well, I did something stupid and died. No real need for sympathy.

Since I don't believe in hell, knock yourself out with that one too.

I'll go this far though. I'll agree with you if we do a little test. Lets take a group of monkeys and let them loose in the park and let the ride run on autopilot all day. If even one fucking monkey gets his head cut off, you win. I'm betting they won't though because even fucking monkeys are too smart to jump in front of a moving roller coaster.

I mean, what is the point of climbing to the top of the food chain if we have to compensate for the stragglers who are dumber than monkeys???

Even if it turns out to be me. Which it well could. I've done stupid things before. I've never expected anyone to blame the blameless for my actions. Don't cry me a river.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

-- Toxicological exams were sent to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and would not be available for several weeks.. Those ought to be interesting.

Probably not, though. I doubt they will come back with anything that explains why it happened. It boils down to a couple of teenagers with bad judgment. The only good thing about the incident is that they did not injure anybody else.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

WWJD.

He'd say, damn, quality control screwed up on this one dad and then he'd go find a bottle of Aqaufina, wave his arms and get a buzz on. He'd probably pray for the dead one's soul too because, he's a kind one that Jesus.


Then he'd put a letter in the suggestion box at Six Flags saying merely, "moat. Sharks. No decapitations. I'm just saying."

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Doesn't matter. Both are breaking the rules, and both are stupid. People in this thread are using the "breaking the rules, and new it was a risk", but when faced with an argument that doesn't suit them, they respond like you just did. It's kind of like the smoking thing that I mentioned to Jon.

By the way, I'm not worked up about this, so don't expect me to go into a Schmidy-rage.

Not all of us hotshot.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Axxon

I mean, what is the point of climbing to the top of the food chain if we have to compensate for the stragglers who are dumber than monkeys???

Testify.

That's damned near sig worthy.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I totally understand that, and agree. I think the thing that's really bothering me is the holier-than-thou stance of "I have no sympathy blah blah blah". I just don't get not having empathy for someone who screwed up, but wasn't intentionally trying hurt himself or anyone else. If it was a criminal who was armed and robbing a store, and did something "Darwin-ish", that's different.

How is it necessarily holier than though though? I'm being serious.

I honestly don't believe that existence starts and stops on terra firma for anyone so I respect life and respect death but don't fear it or hold either case in any exceptional reverence. If I felt that death actually was the end of existence then yeah, I could see your problem but I don't and you trying to push that theory on me is kinda holier than thou to me.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Doesn't matter. Both are breaking the rules, and both are stupid. People in this thread are using the "breaking the rules, and new it was a risk", but when faced with an argument that doesn't suit them, they respond like you just did. It's kind of like the smoking thing that I mentioned to Jon.

By the way, I'm not worked up about this, so don't expect me to go into a Schmidy-rage.

I think you're kind of inventing your own argument to argue against. I haven't seen many people here saying they didn't have sympathy because he was breaking the rules. They don't have sympathy because it was a monumentally stupid act in which death was a highly likely outcome.

I doubt there are any laws against walking into a bear's den, but I'm still not going to have sympathy if someone gets mauled while doing so. Edit: Especially if you have to jump two fences with signs saying WARNING: BEAR CAVE. DO NOT ENTER.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

I think you're kind of inventing your own argument to argue against. I haven't seen many people here saying they didn't have sympathy because he was breaking the rules. They don't have sympathy because it was a monumentally stupid act in which death was a highly likely outcome.

I doubt there are any laws against walking into a bear's den, but I'm still not going to have sympathy if someone gets mauled while doing so.

Well, in that example I just might, but just bearly.

/runs for cover.

[molson]

It's interesting that people are so concerned about this loser getting what they view as the appropriate amount of sympathy at FOFC.

I mean really, isn't sympathy a completely personal thing? It's like you're trying to convince someone to like cheesecake or something.

It's not "Holier Than Thou". It's "Holier than one moron".

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by molson

It's interesting that people are so concerned about this loser getting what they view as the appropriate amount of sympathy at FOFC.

I mean really, isn't sympathy a completely personal thing? It's like you're trying to convince someone to like cheesecake or something.

It's not "Holier Than Though". It's "Holier than one moron".

Holier than Though??

[molson]

Originally Posted by Axxon

Holier than Though??

Correcting my spelling shows a real Holier than Though/Thou attitude.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by molson

Correcting my spelling shows a real Holier than Though/Thou attitude.

Who's correcting you thou?

[Karlifornia]

threadjack:

Would "Holier Than Thou" be a cool band name?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by TargetPractice6

They don't have sympathy because it was a monumentally stupid act in which death was a highly likely outcome.

To me, that doesn't matter - he did something dumb, but not with the intent to hurt himself or anyone else. Was he stupid? Yes. Does he still deserve sympathy? In my world, yes.

How many stupid situations have 90% of you non-sympathyzers (sp?) been in that, by the grace of whatever-you-believe-in, you weren't killed, and probably didn't even know that you were THIS close to being killed or maimed? I'll wager that there are more than a few such instances.

Hell, I mean even something as innocent as the guys in Wayne's World driving down the road, while singing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and then getting broad-sided, would qualify under your guys' terms as meriting no sympathy. And I guarantee that every single fucking one of you did something like that (or the equivalent of that) in your lives. That is hypocritical in my estimation.

I'm just tired of the cynicism in this world. I know it's "sappy", or "bleeding hearted", but there's enough garbage out there without everyone grabbing their pitchforks and torch, and screaming "You deserve to die!!!", every time something like this happens.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here (at least publicly), so I'm going to try to stay out of the argument after this.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

How many stupid situations have 90% of you non-sympathyzers (sp?) been in that, by the grace of whatever-you-believe-in, you weren't killed, and probably didn't even know that you were THIS close to being killed or maimed? I'll wager that there are more than a few such instances.

37.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

In my world, yes.

Since you mentioned it, I'm curious enough to ask: What color is the sky there?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Since you mentioned it, I'm curious enough to ask: What color is the sky there?

Hot pink.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

To me, that doesn't matter - he did something dumb, but not with the intent to hurt himself or anyone else. Was he stupid? Yes. Does he still deserve sympathy? In my world, yes.

How many stupid situations have 90% of you non-sympathyzers (sp?) been in that, by the grace of whatever-you-believe-in, you weren't killed, and probably didn't even know that you were THIS close to being killed or maimed? I'll wager that there are more than a few such instances.

Hell, I mean even something as innocent as the guys in Wayne's World driving down the road, while singing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and then getting broad-sided, would qualify under your guys' terms as meriting no sympathy. And I guarantee that every single fucking one of you did something like that (or the equivalent of that) in your lives. That is hypocritical in my estimation.

I'm just tired of the cynicism in this world. I know it's "sappy", or "bleeding hearted", but there's enough garbage out there without everyone grabbing their pitchforks and torch, and screaming "You deserve to die!!!", every time something like this happens.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here (at least publicly), so I'm going to try to stay out of the argument after this.

I have done stupid things in my life. Like the time at summer camp when the wheelbarrow full of dirt started to tip, so I grabbed the edge like a moron and got whacked on the bridge of my nose by the opposite edge. I deserved no sympathy for that.

But what does "intent" have to do with it? Do you think the kids that steal stop signs (and yes, there was a case where some kids went to jail, I believe here in North Carolina not too long ago) intended to cause an accident that killed someone? Yet that was still a direct result of their actions. Do drunk drivers intend to kill someone whenever they get behind the wheel? When you take an action, you need to accept the consequences of that action. Climb a pair of fences into a rollercoaster compound, be prepared to accept the consequences. Why am I expected to feel sympathy for the kid?

As for cynicism, we've watched personal responsibility erode in this country and slowly work to destroy our way of life. Some of this is backlash against that, along with the expectation of the inevitable lawsuit against the amusement park which should never be filed. But that's what America's come to.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Except that the addition of barbed wire in certain areas (and depending upon jurisdiction) could open the company up to liability for injuries sustained even if the injured party was in the process of committing a criminal act such as trespassing.

Remember, we live in a country where people have been sued by burglars for injuries they received while illegally entering a home ... which is why I can't have really have barbed wire, spikes, etc. rigged on the various entry points to my house.

You can and you can't. You cannot "booby-trap" an area to hurt someone in a criminal act. But you can put barbed-wire around a fence, and even have an electric wire around the top of a fense with warning signs. Along the same reasoning as given that this kid's family would not have a lawsuit, you'd given reasonable notice. But, the only preventive measure between this kid and the ride was a 6-foot chain-linked fence (the outer fense was to restrict access to the park, not a protective measure). A 10 year old could climb a six-foot fence. I would think there would be something more, not to protect the stupid but to protect the innocent riders.

[TargetPractice6]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

To me, that doesn't matter - he did something dumb, but not with the intent to hurt himself or anyone else. Was he stupid? Yes. Does he still deserve sympathy? In my world, yes.

How many stupid situations have 90% of you non-sympathyzers (sp?) been in that, by the grace of whatever-you-believe-in, you weren't killed, and probably didn't even know that you were THIS close to being killed or maimed? I'll wager that there are more than a few such instances.

Hell, I mean even something as innocent as the guys in Wayne's World driving down the road, while singing "Bohemian Rhapsody" and then getting broad-sided, would qualify under your guys' terms as meriting no sympathy. And I guarantee that every single fucking one of you did something like that (or the equivalent of that) in your lives. That is hypocritical in my estimation.

I'm just tired of the cynicism in this world. I know it's "sappy", or "bleeding hearted", but there's enough garbage out there without everyone grabbing their pitchforks and torch, and screaming "You deserve to die!!!", every time something like this happens.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not going to change anyone's mind here (at least publicly), so I'm going to try to stay out of the argument after this.

I never said he deserved to die. But there are far too many unfortunate deaths in the news these days (christ, there's a war going on) for me to feel sorry for some random teen I've never met that decided to have a staring contest with Death.

[TargetPractice6]

In fact the more I think about it, it's so ludicrous to stand under a fucking 50mph suspended roller coaster that it's almost too unreal to feel sympathy. It's like someone dying because they wanted to slap the front window of an oncoming freight train. Who doesn't realize that's going to kill them?

[Grammaticus]

How the heck did this kid make it to 17,thats what I wanna know?

[tarcone]

EDIT: im way behind the thread