The 2013 NBA Playoffs

[Vince, Pt. II]

Random thoughts from the GS/SA game tonight:

-The Warriors' offense can get so ridiculously stagnant. I guess it comes from having young players who don't know how to continue to move without the ball, but it's really frustrating to see Jarret Jack dribble around for 23 seconds and heave up a desperation shot, or to see someone jack up a low percentage shot with 19 seconds left on the shot clock.

-The refs were terrible. They seemed to have a ridiculous idea of what was and wasn't a foul against both teams. Duncan in particular got nailed for a terrible foul call around the free throw line for simply putting his hand in the air. Bogut's 4th and 5th fouls were awful. The capper was the refs forgetting that Tony Parker got two free throw attempts late in the game. I guess it was consistently terrible reffing, but good grief.

-If Steph's ankle isn't 100%, the Warriors are screwed.

-The Warriors are probably screwed anyway.

-It's hard to be angry at Jarret Jack. There were major stretches of the game where he was the only thing keeping the Warriors in it.

-Does Manu Ginobili always flop like he did tonight? I don't watch many Spurs games, but he had a couple of plays that were ridiculous.

-Tony Parker was awesome today. That goofy sidearm underhand shot he made after the foul was one of the more ridiculous shots I've ever seen. Not sure how he was getting so free early in the game. It seemed pretty clear that he was gassed about 2/3 the way through the third quarter though...I wonder if that's something the Warriors can exploit moving forward. I'm also curious as to why they don't use their athletic guards to try attacking the hoop while Parker is guarding them. His defense has been pretty weak all series long, and getting him in foul trouble will only help the Warriors' chances going forward.

-What was with Ginobili's weird (and horrible) backwards passes today?

-Splitter had an awful game in terms of ball handling, but he was getting hammered by the Warriors every time he got involved, and the refs seemed to be fine with letting him get hammered without blowing the whistle (which was wildly inconsistent compared to everyone else on the floor). I wonder if he was rattled because of how hard he was getting hit every time.

-Duncan is still brilliant from mid-range, and if the Warriors don't start double-teaming him I may break a television before the end of the series.

-The Spurs have to be the best passing team in the league. I swear on 40% of their possessions tonight it seemed like they were on the power play the way they were able to pass it around and find a completely wide open player.

-If at any point moving forward in this series Parker can be as hot as he was this evening and Curry and/or Thompson are hot at the same time, we may be in for one of the more incredible basketball games ever. I seriously doubt that will happen with the caliber of defense that both teams are playing, but man what a game that would be.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Honestly at this point, I fully expected Vince McMa.. I mean David Stern to say the rest of the Bulls-Heat series will be held within the confines of a FIFTEEN FOOT HIGH STEEL CAGE

I know the media has been feasting on this stuff, but I don't think it's been that physical. Maybe that's because I grew up in the 80's and 90's era. Some minor shoves and wrap-ups are hardly much. And they've called ticky-tack fouls on anyone who dares try and defend a star so the game hasn't been that physical in the paint.

They started the game by calling two fouls on Butler that weren't fouls. They didn't want people playing defense. It's not that tough of a series.

[miami_fan]

So what is the middle ground? Has it been physical when compared to the Heat-Knicks series of 1997? No, but the league (and most fans) don't want that type of basketball. I believe that the majority of fans believe that basketball should be even more of a non contact game than it is currently is. I know that I am in the minority as far as allowing physical play goes. I don't think Nazr should have been tossed. But I was not afraid of where the game would have gone last night. I don't thinking the same could be said for the league.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

-Does Manu Ginobili always flop like he did tonight? I don't watch many Spurs games, but he had a couple of plays that were ridiculous.

Yes. Yes he does. He's Argentinian, but they play a more European style game, and pretty much all European and South American players flop like the bejeezus. Something about the culture I guess (it's extremely annoying and prominent in soccer as well).

Mind you, not that American players don't flop, they most certainly do. They're not as good at it, and there are a lot more of them that simply refuse to go as far as European/South American players do. But they do do it, every one of them.

But, yeah, this is like a special skill among most European/South American players.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Random thoughts from the GS/SA game tonight:

-The Warriors' offense can get so ridiculously stagnant. I guess it comes from having young players who don't know how to continue to move without the ball, but it's really frustrating to see Jarret Jack dribble around for 23 seconds and heave up a desperation shot, or to see someone jack up a low percentage shot with 19 seconds left on the shot clock.

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

The Spurs have to be the best passing team in the league. I swear on 40% of their possessions tonight it seemed like they were on the power play the way they were able to pass it around and find a completely wide open player.

I feel like both offenses got stagnant. The Spurs seem like a shell of their offensive selves compared to where they were at this time last year. At their best, it isn't just a high pick and roll with Parker/Ginobili and Duncan the way it seems to be for much of this series. They've moved the ball a bit, but compared to the regular season and to last year's playoffs, they still need to move it better if they're going to have a shot at a title, never mind get out of this round.

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

What was with Ginobili's weird (and horrible) backwards passes today?

It's been this season's dirty little secret for San Antonio that Ginobili just hasn't been that good. He can still make plays when they're needed (see game 1), but his decision-making has been suspect and his shooting has been down. I'm not sure Popovich completely trusts him as much as he used to. He knows what he's going to get from Green defensively and he knows Green can hit big shots. Ginobili is as much of a wildcard now as he was when he came into the league. He has to be consistently better than the inconsistent self he's been for much of this year for SA to succeed.

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Splitter had an awful game in terms of ball handling, but he was getting hammered by the Warriors every time he got involved, and the refs seemed to be fine with letting him get hammered without blowing the whistle (which was wildly inconsistent compared to everyone else on the floor). I wonder if he was rattled because of how hard he was getting hit every time.

Splitter has been hammered and he has been looking for calls. That has been going on for a lot of the second half of the year as well. He just has to suck it up and realize that he's not going to get those calls. I do think that all the contact has rattled him. He was SA's most improved player for the first half of the year, but faded as the year went on. That's when he started looking for calls.

Green and Leonard are the series deciders for the Spurs. If they play well, SA should win more often than not. If they play poorly, the Warriors have every shot at winning the series.

[murrayyyyy]

Ugh, Grizzlies should be up 3-0... but I guess I can't complain since they are still playing.

Durant looks defeated right now, not sure if it is fatigue or not. Thunder outplayed Memphis in almost every category and it still didn't matter today.

[Karlifornia]

Pretty much a must win game for the Warriors today. Even if they win, they still have to win another roadie to win the series. Gonna be tough, but I'm glad I get to witness it

[whomario]

monumentally stupid 3rd foul by bogut

lee is definitely earning my respect playing with that injury

curry takes some ridiculous shots

[whomario]

so thats what you draw up in a to ?

[whomario]

Bogut with a massive 2nd half, great work rebounding and challenging at the same time.
Curry could barely accelerate and still was effective as a decoy and then scoring as well. Warriors were a +23 with him on the court.
Barnes missed a lot of gimmes, but he was agressive in a good way and had a nice game nonetheless. And Jarret Jack saved the day, somehow ...

For the Spurs Manu went cold at the wrong time, Parker was very timid and Duncan plays hard and still very well, but just doesn´t need to be double with Bogut on him.
Splitter needed to play more.

[korme]

Bulls shooting 26% was an issue

[Groundhog]

Bulls just aren't deep enough to survive a night from Nate like he had tonight. It was good to see Rip contribute though.

[Young Drachma]

Sans Westbrook, not that much of an epic fail. Presti got too cute. Westbrook is hurt, no Harden and Durant can't do it alone.

[whomario]

Woodson with an attempt to fix the Knicks by not fixing anything. Taking Prigioni out was his attempt to change something (anything !) while not having the gutts to do it at the expense at the zombie known as Jason Kidd.
Knicks are +58 with him on the court in the Playoffs (-32 when he isn´t) and he leads all rotation players in that category as well as both offensive and defensive rating (and by a really big margin, too)

[Karlifornia]

Nice season for the warriors. Couldn't hit shots when they needed them, and the spurs hit every shot they needed.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Nice season for the warriors. Couldn't hit shots when they needed them, and the spurs hit every shot they needed.

They have a very bright future ahead of them. Curry, Thompson, and Barnes are a great young core (and cheap!).

[korme]

So who takes the West? I think Memphis has the best shot at beating the Heat, but you can never count out the Spurs... either way, both matchups I think will be fun Finals.

[Young Drachma]

Hope Memphis pulls it out, sort of tired of San Antonio but would be fitting tribute to Timmy and his boys.

[Cap Ologist]

My heart says Spurs, but my head says Grizzlies. San Antonio will definitely have to play a lot better than they did this past series.

[korme]

TF was Vogel thinking taking Hibbert out on those final two plays?

LBJ is the man.

Thoughts on PG: I really, really like his game but he has questionable decision making skills at best. Saw him late game pick the ball up too often, not expecting his intended passing target to be covered so tightly, making bad passes often. Then on the final play of OT he forced that wild three when, Hill(?) was in the corner wide open. Bad decision making, bailed out multiple times.

Still he's super young and this is his first huge playoff series, so... all in time.

[RainMaker]

That was a fun game.

Vogel has been pulling Hibbert late all year. I think he's a great coach but I don't get why he does it. It nearly cost him a game in the NY series.

[korme]

He has concerns with too much time on the clock that Hibbert would be too slow on a P&R... however he's one of the top rim defenders in the league. It's nearly inexcusable.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by korme

He has concerns with too much time on the clock that Hibbert would be too slow on a P&R... however he's one of the top rim defenders in the league. It's nearly inexcusable.

No, it's fully inexcusable. He can say all he wants about how often they've done that in the past, but how many times have they had the opportunity to do that against possibly the greatest "take it to the hoop" guys of all time?

And there is no excuse for seeing that massive defensive failure the first time, and then doubling down on the decision.

[Groundhog]

Post-game he said he worried about Hibbert on Bosh, but you know what? If Bosh beats you on a long 2 then so be it, but a drive by LeBron or even Wade has to be priority #1 with that much time on the clock.

[spleen1015]

How come no one is blaming Paul George for playing such terrible defense? Everyone wants to blame Vogel for not having Hibbert on the floor, but George played some pretty awful defense on that last possession.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

How come no one is blaming Paul George for playing such terrible defense? Everyone wants to blame Vogel for not having Hibbert on the floor, but George played some pretty awful defense on that last possession.

Probably because no one expects Paul George to defend Lebron James one on one in that situation. Especially since Lebron had just blown by the Pacer D without Hibbert on the court on the previous possession. Hibbert is the guy that is supposed to clean up defensive errors by the perimeter players. If Vogel is not going to deny the ball to Lebron (unlikely) or run a second defender at him(better choice IMO), having Hibbert on the court at least provides the Pacers with a last line of defense. Vogel is not the only person who gets the blame. George get some, and Sam Young gets blame for pulling up as Lebron goes to the basket as opposed to knocking him on his ass and sending him to the line. But if Hibbert is the "best rim protector in the game", he has to be at the rim in that situation.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Post-game he said he worried about Hibbert on Bosh

Kind of odd to be worried about your big man defending another big man.

[Arles]

If I'm a coach, there's no reason to have a rim defender in against Miami with no Wade and 2 seconds left. That's not enough time for a guy to catch at the top of the key, make a move, drive to the basket and score (assuming George doesn't run past Lebron for no apparent reason).

If I am Vogel, here's what I am worried about with 2 sec left and no wade (in this order):
1. Bosh cutting to the basket off a pick
2. Ray Allen slipping a screen for a 3
3. Lebron catching and kicking to an open 3.
4. Lebron catching and hitting an open 18 footer.

Paul George falling down and Lebron driving to the rim isn't something I am thinking about when diagramming a defense. Heck, watch the video:



Hibbert would have had to start at the top of the key on Bosh and then fight through a screen to follow Bosh to the baseline. If he's in - he either isn't quick enough to get to Lebron off the drive because he's on Bosh. Or, he leaves Bosh open and helps and Miami gets a wide open 15 foot baseline jumper from Bosh (where he's been about 70% in the playoffs).

Once George slipped, the Pacers were screwed whether Hibbert was there or not.

[Matthean]

I'll take a 15 foot jumper over a layup.

[spleen1015]

After watching that a few times, Lebron should have been called for a foul when he pushed off with his forearm to get open to receive the pass. I know that never gets called, but I think it was a foul.

[Julio Riddols]

Wow, I didn't know how it ended, but after seeing that, it is entirely on Paul George. There is no way in hell ANYONE should be able to drive to the hoop with 2 seconds on the clock off an inbounds pass. George just needed to let him catch it and force him to take the shot after he pushed off.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Matthean

I'll take a 15 foot jumper over a layup.

I still think Lebron would have gotten the same layup had Hibbert been in. Had Vogel put him in, Hibbert would have been terrified of not keeping up with Bosh so he probably would have tracked him very close. There's no way that he could then recover and get all the way over to Lebron.

Plus, Vogel's defense was very well laid out. Everyone was to switch on screens and make sure no open looks were there. Look at the 23 sec mark of the video. Hansbrough and Young switch and take other guys and everyone is perfectly marked. If George simply stays at the left elbow instead of over-committing to the 3-point line, Lebron has no pass and is forced to hit a contested 20-foot jumper to win. If Hibbert was out there, he doesn't have the agility to cover Allen like Hansbrough did and Allen is probably open in the corner for the jumper - even if George doesn't slip:



This is all on George - He just needed to stay at that left elbow and close out when Lebron started his shot.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

After watching that a few times, Lebron should have been called for a foul when he pushed off with his forearm to get open to receive the pass. I know that never gets called, but I think it was a foul.

Come on. That happens every out of bounds play. The push happened before he even got the pass and it was pretty minimal. There's zero chance that is ever called in any situation. Actually, the push should have helped George and made the decision even easier to just stay at that elbow. I really like Paul George, but he played that about as bad as you possibly could have given the time and situation.

[Logan]

Even if George didn't overcommit, I don't think LeBron was pulling up from 20 ft anyway. You could see he was planting and turning toward the goal anyway as he prepared to receive the ball, and he was going to barrel towards the rim just like he did the previous play, and dare George to stay in front of him (or draw the foul). Not having Hibbert in there just made it ridiculously easier.

[Arles]

There wasn't enough time for Lebron to make a move to get by George if he just waited at the elbow. And, again, there's no way Hibbert is just sitting in front of the rim as that would have left Bosh wide open for a J.

[Logan]

He made it to within a foot of the basket in that 2.2 seconds. The level of resistance George would be able to put up, standing still ("waiting for him" as you suggest) and considering LeBron's strength and speed as he comes out of that plant with the ball would be minimal, and he probably would have ended up within 5 feet of the basket.

And why are you assuming that if Hibbert was in, the Pacers would have employed the same defensive scheme that actually took place?

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Logan

He made it to within a foot of the basket in that 2.2 seconds. The level of resistance George would be able to put up, standing still ("waiting for him" as you suggest) and considering LeBron's strength and speed as he comes out of that plant with the ball would be minimal, and he probably would have ended up within 5 feet of the basket.

And why are you assuming that if Hibbert was in, the Pacers would have employed the same defensive scheme that actually took place?

My point is the Pacers had 3 options:

1. Put Hibbert in, have him zone the basket and zone/man with the other 4. In this case, someone ends up with an open jumper as all 5 were decent shooters and Hibbert couldn't cover one.

2. Put Hibbert in, have him play Hansbrough's role in the same set they ran guarding Bosh. In this case, Ray Allen screens Hibbert and slips to the corner. So, either Hibbert fights through the screen and trails Bosh (at which point Lebron can pass to him for an inside shot) or Hibbert switches like Tyler did and is forced to stop and restart to chase Allen into the left wing (at which point Allen probably gets a decent look).

3. Run the defense Vogel did with Hibbert out.

In all 3 cases, you are somewhat screwed with George's defensive effort. Case 1 certainly would be the best, but given George just got 3 free throws for a touch foul on Wade, if Hibbert breathes on Lebron as he goes up he atleast gets free throws. Best case, Lebron beats George, sees Hibbert and kicks to Bosh for an open 15-foot jumper. It's certainly better than a layup, but it's still a high percentage look.

If you assume that George isn't going to overcommit and play awful defense, I still feel option 3 gives you the best chance. It's doubtful Lebron has the time to set George up for a move and score if Paul is ready. Remember, with George out of position, Lebron still shot with only 0.4 sec left. And, in option 3, there are no open looks and Miami's only option is someone taking a contested jumpshot or rushing a drive.

[Groundhog]

George's D looks awful in replay, but with no rim protection in and guarding LeBron, the gameplan should have been a firm "don't get beat - make them shoot a jumper". I can't believe it was, given how he played LeBron on that possession - clearly he was expecting him to pull up. 2 seconds is plenty of time for LeBron to attack the basket.

[nol]

The best thing probably would have been to have Hibbert in and just zone the play, since there wasn't enough time left to call defensive three seconds. That being said:

1. I doubt teams spend much time practicing a zone against sideline out of bounds plays. The situation's rare enough that you can't blame Vogel for not being confident that his team would be able to execute in such unfamiliar circumstances.

2. 99 percent of the time, a player who catches at the top of the key with that amount of time left ends up shooting a contested jumper. You just have to give James credit for having the presence of mind to not panic and know there was enough time to get to the rim.

Edit: I disagree that it was "more" than enough time for LeBron to get to the hoop. He had to make his move immediately upon catching the ball while he was facing away from the hoop. Pretty much anyone else would have had to square up to size up the floor, and by then there's only time for a one dribble (at most) pull-up. That's a really athletic move to be able to catch the ball moving away from the hoop and completely reverse your momentum. Any hesitation and George is able to recover and make it a much tougher look for him, or he's forced to pull up and shoot a floater before the clock expires.

[korme]

Isn't the NBA grand? The level of discussion we're having over 2 seconds of basketball is amazing. You never know what would have happened if George played it differently, if Hibbert was in there, the split second decision Bron would have made, etc. Great stuff.

[albionmoonlight]

It interests me just how little of the discussion (here and elsewhere) was about "HOLY SHIT, WHAT AN AMAZING PLAY BY LEBRON!" It has almost all focused on what Indiana did wrong. But that was, really, an athletically jaw dropping play. I was gobsmacked.

Some athletes, we can't get enough of how great they are. When they do something, the conversation revolves around the amazingness of their play--not so much the failings of their opponents. Brett Favre, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, Shaq all come to mind for me.

But LeBron seems to have his greatness taken for granted more than most. The story is more about what players and teams could/should have done to stop him than about the fact that he's playing like God decided to go into an EA Sports game and make a player with 99s in all of the relevant categories.

[nol]

Exactly. I don't recall anyone ever dissecting the opposing coach's strategy after any of MJ's buzzer beaters. Popovich has actually kept Duncan out at the end of games for the exact same reasons Hibbert was out, and that decision has completely avoided criticism.

[Matthean]

Well, Pacers are going to try to make it interesting at least.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Matthean

Well, Pacers are going to try to make it interesting at least.

Yeah. Heat in 6 I think, but love the way these Pacers are playing. The Hibbert/West frontcourt is proving a lot to deal with.

[Arles]

I love watching Paul George play. He is really becoming a top tier player.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Arles

I love watching Paul George play. He is really becoming a top tier player.

Yup, George has taken that step this playoffs.

I must admit that I find it kinda funny that the Heat are kinda playing like the LeBron-era Cavs now whenever they have it in the halfcourt - give the ball to LeBron and the other 4 guys spot up or look to cut. Main difference is he has Ray Allen/Shane Battier/Mike Miller and even Chris freakin' Bosh to knock down the open looks.

[nol]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yup, George has taken that step this playoffs.

I must admit that I find it kinda funny that the Heat are kinda playing like the LeBron-era Cavs now whenever they have it in the halfcourt - give the ball to LeBron and the other 4 guys spot up or look to cut. Main difference is he has Ray Allen/Shane Battier/Mike Miller and even Chris freakin' Bosh to knock down the open looks.

I wouldn't count on Allen or Battier making too many this series. The Pacers are definitely trying to cut off the role players and make LeBron beat them himself. On most nights, his output was enough to do just that, but the Pacers were really able to have their way on offense (they probably scored about 1.2 points per possession, even factoring in all the Lance Stephenson boneheaded plays).

Hopefully the refs let the teams play so the rest of the series is more like the second half of today's game than the first. I think we'll be in for a lot more classic basketball.

[miami_fan]

There is something to be said for the fact that after 15 years and four championships and four titles, I still have no idea who the owner of the Spurs is or what he looks like until his name pops up on the screen. Talk about one of the best owners in sports, Peter Holt is definitely one of them.

[Groundhog]

It took awhile, but I sorta think the Griz trade did end up hurting them – not so much Rudy Gay, but losing Ellington’s shooting was big. I also think they did a poor job adjusting to what the Spurs were doing, which was basically packing the key and forcing Randolph out of his comfort zone by ignoring Prince and Tony Allen.

Pondexter should have been starting and playing big minutes IMO as he was the only guy who looked a consistent threat from deep, and also doesn’t stink at D like Bayless does, who was the only other guard who really looked dangerou, but gives up more than he makes. Overall, Spurs also did a great job keeping Conley from penetrating by the same tactic that kept Randolph in check and just clogging up the key.

Assuming Heat take their series, it should make for an interesting final. Spurs don’t matchup as well with the Heat and all their shooters, but if they can limit turnovers and get the ball inside they might do OK. I think Dejuan Blair might be a wildcard given his style of play. Hasn’t seen much court time throughout the playoffs, but I can see him performing against that Heat frontcourt.

[whomario]

Tony Parker was amazing yesterday.

Also this happened :



I´d break my wrist trying that...

What the Spurs have going for them are some of the same things the Mavs used to their advantage: Interior defense aided by clever rotations, ball movement, shooting and drible penetration.
Of course the Heat are propably a better team now than 2 years ago and it´s possible that the spurs lack the individual defenders the Mavs had (Marion and Kidd turned back the clock those playoffs on defense, Stevenson had his finest hour) but it´s not like the Mavs were that good or a sure bet there.
But i don´t see how it´s an especially bad matchup. Heat are still most vulnerable against teams that can penetrate and move the ball well.

And on defense the Spurs were brilliant all year.