Revolution(s) in the Arabian World

[JonInMiddleGA]

Well that worked out well eh?
BBC News - Muslim Brotherhood's Mursi declared Egypt president

[Grover]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well that worked out well eh?
BBC News - Muslim Brotherhood's Mursi declared Egypt president

Can only hope they're more Turkey than some of the other Mid-East countries.

[Dutch]

Probably.

[ISiddiqui]

Meh... people should have a right to elect who rules over them. The fact that they may make (apparent) boneheaded decisions at times is something that happens to every country.

Then again, I think it is well acknowledged that the Muslim Brotherhood was really the only group fighting against the old regime from the get-go and when the old regime falls, who are people going to look to as deserving praise?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I find this to be an interesting twist in the situation. First ever veiled news anchor in Egypt.

Egypt's veiled news anchor stirs debate - Yahoo! News

[RainMaker]

Some news from Libya.

American Consulate Officer Killed in Libya Attack; Egyptians Flood U.S. Embassy in Cairo - ABC News

Name hasn't been released to the public but it will be soon. His name is Sean, was a friend of mine, was over there to do some IT work. Great guy who was a big Chargers fan and had a wife and children. I hope he is in a better place.

What a sick culture they have.

[EagleFan]

Very sorry to hear. Killed because they are mad about a movie that not one person they attacked even have anything to do with and most likley didn't even know about until those animals started attacking.

There is no room on this planet for animals like that.

My thoughts go out to his family and friends.

[MrBug708]

Apparently the ambassador to Libya was killed

[JPhillips]

Jeffrey Goldberg sums it up nicely:

What sort of ostensibly religious person values the supposed honor of his prophet over a life created in the image of God?

[ISiddiqui]

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Some news from Libya.

American Consulate Officer Killed in Libya Attack; Egyptians Flood U.S. Embassy in Cairo - ABC News

Name hasn't been released to the public but it will be soon. His name is Sean, was a friend of mine, was over there to do some IT work. Great guy who was a big Chargers fan and had a wife and children. I hope he is in a better place.

What a sick culture they have.

Sorry for the loss of your friend.

It is a sick culture that thrives on ignorance. The learned in Islam understand how the way the wold works, how not everybody is against them and/or blasphemous. Many are tollerant. Some use the ugnorance of masses to control them.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Some news from Libya.

American Consulate Officer Killed in Libya Attack; Egyptians Flood U.S. Embassy in Cairo - ABC News

Name hasn't been released to the public but it will be soon. His name is Sean, was a friend of mine, was over there to do some IT work. Great guy who was a big Chargers fan and had a wife and children. I hope he is in a better place.

What a sick culture they have.

Seriously??

Fuck man - I'm sorry.

I'm officially tired of trying to help these fuckwads. Pull out and let them have their sand-covered shithole countries.

Ever since I read it in college I have Huntington had a point in "The Clash of Civilizations" at least as far as his observation of Islam's "bloody borders." Not saying the rest of the book is without fault at all, but the part on Islam has always rang true with me.

[Autumn]

You guys are heading to the same territory of thinking that these idiots are using. Blaming some embassy workers for a movie made by someone in the US makes little sense, but so does blaming Libyan or Arab culture in general for something some people in Libya did. God knows we don't want our culture judged by every group of idiots that it encompasses.

This is messed up. I'm a little surprised to see though that our embassy didn't have its own security. Seems like a bad idea to employ local security in a place going through the sort of uproar that it is.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

BBC said our security was overwhelmed. Not surprising, as it seems that if a situation is bad enough that we would need to make an embassy a fortress that we would just pull the embassy in the first place.

Shots fired would probably be warning shots to scare a crowd off. If you have a few guys with automatic weapons just mow down a crowd immediately it could make for an awful situation. The problem is when it gets to the point where that would be apporpriate force, it's already out of hand.

Hopefully Libya is serious about finding thise responsible and brings them to justice.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

You guys are heading to the same territory of thinking that these idiots are using. Blaming some embassy workers for a movie made by someone in the US makes little sense, but so does blaming Libyan or Arab culture in general for something some people in Libya did. God knows we don't want our culture judged by every group of idiots that it encompasses.

This is messed up. I'm a little surprised to see though that our embassy didn't have its own security. Seems like a bad idea to employ local security in a place going through the sort of uproar that it is.

It's not just this one event. It's countless events over decades across the region.

Not saying the entire culture is rotten or that there aren't Muslims who abhor this type of thing and work against it, but at some point the metaphorical apple is too rotten to eat so you throw it away.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Autumn

You guys are heading to the same territory of thinking that these idiots are using. Blaming some embassy workers for a movie made by someone in the US makes little sense, but so does blaming Libyan or Arab culture in general for something some people in Libya did. God knows we don't want our culture judged by every group of idiots that it encompasses.

Amen. We can't fall into the same hole these horrible people did. It just continues a cycle that we desperately need to get out of.

[cartman]

This wasn't at the embassy in Tripoli. They were on a trip to a consulate when this happened. Consulates are never as well guarded as the embassies.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by cartman

This wasn't at the embassy in Tripoli. They were on a trip to a consulate when this happened. Consulates are never as well guarded as the embassies.

Ah, I see, thanks, Cartman.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

it seems that if a situation is bad enough that we would need to make an embassy a fortress that we would just pull the embassy in the first place.

Are you familiar with the history of our embassy in Beirut?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Are you familiar with the history of our embassy in Beirut?

Yes. I doubt in 1983, even as bad as things were in Lebanon that anybody thought something of that magnitude would have occurred.

Since I was 10 I don't recall anybody criticizing the president over it, but I could be wrong.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

This reminds me an awful lot of some of the overthrown dictators getting dragged through the streets.........

[cartman]

Do we really need pictured of dead bodies posted? Spoiler tags maybe?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This reminds me an awful lot of some of the overthrown dictators getting dragged through the streets.........

I have read a caption that this picture is actually citizens pulling injured people out. So the opposite of what the insinuation is here.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have read a caption that this picture is actually citizens pulling injured people out. So the opposite of what the insinuation is here.

Seems to be the case.

Chris Stevens Photos?: Images Appear To Show U.S. Ambassador After Benghazi Attack (GRAPHIC)

A Libyan doctor who treated Stevens said he died of severe asphyxiation, apparently from smoke. In a sign of the chaos of during the attack, Stevens was brought alone by Libyans to the Benghazi Medical Center with no other Americans, and no one at the facility knew who he was, the doctor, Ziad Abu Zeid, told The Associated Press.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Seems to be the case.

Chris Stevens Photos?: Images Appear To Show U.S. Ambassador After Benghazi Attack (GRAPHIC)

So actual ordinary Libyans rescued him and tried to save him?

Imagine that - and some people would have us already bombing them in thanks.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Since I was 10 I don't recall anybody criticizing the president over it, but I could be wrong.

Yeah, they did. There was pretty heavy criticism actually, mostly with the response (which was placing Marines there who then were killed in another suicide bomb). Presidents always take the brunt on these things whether fair or not.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Yeah, they did. There was pretty heavy criticism actually, mostly with the response (which was placing Marines there who then were killed in another suicide bomb).

Ditto that recollection.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Ditto that recollection.

I guess you also remember this is when the "car trap" setups started to appear more frequently (the barriers that makes cars zig-zag to enter certain government buildings and institutions). God, are we old.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Just did a little more reading up on Beirut.

Reagan's response sounds like it could have been read by Obama.

Originally Posted by President Ronald Reagan, April 18, 1983

Let me begin with a brief statement. As you know, our Embassy in Beirut was the target this morning of a vicious, terrorist bombing. This cowardly act has claimed a number of killed and wounded. It appears that there are some American casualties, but we don't know yet the exact number or the extent of injury.

In cooperation with the Lebanese authorities, we're still verifying the details and identifying the casualties. I commend Ambassador Robert Dillon and his dedicated staff who are carrying on under these traumatic circumstances in the finest tradition of our military and foreign services.

Just a few minutes ago, President Gemayel called me to convey on behalf of the Lebanese people his profound regret and sorrow with regard to this incident and asked me to relay the condolences on behalf of the people of Lebanon to the families of those victims. He also expressed his firm determination that we persevere in the search for peace in that region. And I told President Gemayel that I joined him in those sentiments. This criminal attack on a diplomatic establishment will not deter us from our goals of peace in the region. We will do what we know to be right.

Ambassadors Habib and Draper, who are presently in Beirut, will continue to press in negotiations for the earliest possible, total withdrawal of all external forces.

We also remain committed to the recovery by the Lebanese Government of full sovereignty throughout all of its territory. The people of Lebanon must be given the chance to resume their efforts to lead a normal life, free from violence, without the presence of unauthorized foreign forces on their soil. And to this noble end, I rededicate the efforts of the United States.

A year later, did Mondale accuse him of essentially taking the enemy's side?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I guess you also remember this is when the "car trap" setups started to appear more frequently (the barriers that makes cars zig-zag to enter certain government buildings and institutions). God, are we old.

Water barrels, the now familiar concrete traffic barricades that prevent vehicles from just driving up next to buildings (ubiquitous at civilian venues like the Georgia Dome these days), even some sally port styled entries that require vehicles to go through one gate and stop before being admitted through a second gate.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

A year later, did Mondale accuse him of essentially taking the enemy's side?

A short time later Mondale said Reagan is letting terrorists humiliate us, push us around and kill our people ... (through) an atrocious abdication of leadership

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A short time later Mondale said Reagan is letting terrorists humiliate us, push us around and kill our people ... (through) an atrocious abdication of leadership

So basically it doesn't matter who has a D in front of their name and who has an R. They're going to say the same things over and over again about the other side. The only thing that matters to anybody about what is said is who it is being said against, as I'm sure 99.9% of Romney voters would have been lambasting Mondale for saying that... and still would. But Obama is of course, dead wrong in their eyes.

[Autumn]

ding ding ding, we have a winner

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

So basically it doesn't matter who has a D in front of their name and who has an R. They're going to say the same things over and over again about the other side.

Well, if you look at it as the two sides being "challenger" and "incumbent" (or incumbent party if a 2-termer is in office), then yeah, it's not likely to change very much if the circumstances are similar.

BTW, Mondale actually went further at the time of the embassy bombing, directly blaming Reagan for the attacks

In the second presidential debate, for instance, held in Kansas City on Oct. 21st and devoted to defense and foreign policy issues, Mondale went so far as to accuse Reagan of causing the October 1983 Beirut Marine barracks bombing.

"In Lebanon, this President exercised American power, all right," Mondale charged, "but the management of it was such that our Marines were killed, we had to leave in humiliation, the Soviet Union became stronger, terrorists became emboldened."

According to Mondale, Reagan "told the terrorists he was going to retaliate" for that bombing, which killed 241 U.S. servicemen. "He didn't. They called their bluff. And the bottom line is that the United States left in humiliation, and our enemies are stronger."

Now the even more interesting part is the actual subject of that article ... Mondale's autobiography praise for Reagan in hindsight (as a way to criticize sitting Pres. Bush at the time the book was published) "Reagan, though he talked a bold game, never succumbed to military recklessness on a large scale," the now-82-year-old Mondale added in the concluding paragraphs of the chapter, "Hostage Crisis." "In the big confrontations - Beirut, for example - he pulled out the instant our troops got in trouble.

[Young Drachma]

'This Does Not Represent Us': Moving Photos of Pro-American Rallies in Libya - Politics - The Atlantic Wire

[DaddyTorgo]

Now the even more interesting part is the actual subject of that article ... Mondale's autobiography praise for Reagan in hindsight (as a way to criticize sitting Pres. Bush at the time the book was published) "Reagan, though he talked a bold game, never succumbed to military recklessness on a large scale," the now-82-year-old Mondale added in the concluding paragraphs of the chapter, "Hostage Crisis." "In the big confrontations - Beirut, for example - he pulled out the instant our troops got in trouble.

Or you know...maybe it's not all some big D/R conspiracy and Mondale actually you know...had a change of heart and wanted to compliment Reagan?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Or you know...maybe it's not all some big D/R conspiracy and Mondale actually you know...had a change of heart and wanted to compliment Reagan?

Then why continue the passage & attack Bush/subsequent conservative movement, rather than simply stick to complimenting (in his mind anyway) Reagan?

Mondale was what he was - an unrepentant liberal - I'm not ripping the guy for saying whatever or anything, I'm reasonably convinced that he genuinely intends it as a compliment (to what could easily be considered one of Reagan's weaknesses). But let's not get all crazy here & suggest that his motives for the comment were entirely pure either. It's politics, plus he had a book to sell, there ain't much in the way of pure motives with either.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then why continue the passage & attack Bush/subsequent conservative movement, rather than simply stick to complimenting (in his mind anyway) Reagan?

Mondale was what he was - an unrepentant liberal - I'm not ripping the guy for saying whatever or anything, I'm reasonably convinced that he genuinely intends it as a compliment (to what could easily be considered one of Reagan's weaknesses). But let's not get all crazy here & suggest that his motives for the comment were entirely pure either. It's politics, plus he had a book to sell, there ain't much in the way of pure motives with either.

Fair enough. I hadn't read the book, so I wasn't aware of how the passage continued or anything.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Rainmaker - sorry to hear that one of those killed was your friend. I hope that my posting this link is taken as I mean it: sharing a considerable tribute being paid to him by gamers & not as something that increase the pain of your loss.
My Way News - Libya attack victim remembered by online gamers

Sean Smith, the foreign service information management officer who was killed with three others in an attack on an American consulate in Libya, wasn't just remembered Wednesday in the real world as a husband, father and 10-year veteran of the U.S. State Department, but also as an influential intergalactic diplomat in a sprawling virtual galaxy.

The 34-year-old State Department officer serving in Benghazi was known online as the player "Vile Rat" in the massively multiplayer game "EVE Online," which features more than 400,000 players captaining starships, buying and selling virtual goods, engaging in corporate espionage and electing a government composed of real-world players.

"I can tell you that CCP Games and its employees are overwhelmingly saddened by the news of Sean Smith's passing, as we are when we learn of any player who is tragically lost," said Ned Coker, a spokesman for the game's developer. "Many of us interacted with him professionally and personally and, honestly, it feels like our words are lost - adrift amongst such a tremendous, soul-affirming outpouring from the 'EVE' community."

Smith was an avid participant of "EVE," having served in the game's virtual government and convinced some of the game's biggest alliances to disband. He played as "Vile Rat," a cunning diplomat whose head was shorn, just like Smith's, since 2006.

After the news of Smith's death spread online Wednesday, several virtual space stations in "EVE" were renamed in his honor and condolence messages poured across Internet message boards and on Twitter with (hashtag)tweetfleet.

Alex "The Mittani " Gianturco, the leader of Smith's "EVE" guild "Goon Swarm," detailed his final online interaction with Smith on his personal site Wednesday. He said Smith was on the instant messaging service Jabber before the attack and posted two words - an expletive and "GUNFIRE" - before he disconnected.

"I'm clearly in shock as I write this as everything is buzzing around my head funnily, and I feel kind of dead inside," wrote Gianturco. "I'm not sure if this is how I'm supposed to react to my friend being killed by a mob in a post-revolutionary Libya, but it's pretty awful, and Sean was a great guy and he was a (expletive) master at this game we all play, even though a lot of people may not realize how significant an influence he had."

Prior to arriving in Benghazi, Smith served in Brussels, Baghdad, Pretoria, Montreal and The Hague, according to a State Department statement. He had also served in the Air Force.

Tuesday's attack by a mob enraged by a film ridiculing Islam's prophet came on the 11th anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist strike. Ambassador Chris Stevens was also killed in the assault. He was the first U.S. diplomat to die in the line of duty since 1979.

The attack was touched off by an obscure movie made in the United States by a filmmaker who calls Islam a "cancer." Video excerpts posted on YouTube depict the Prophet Muhammad as a fraud, a womanizer and a madman in an overtly ridiculing way, showing him having sex and calling for massacres.

Smith is survived by his wife, Heather, and two children, Samantha and Nathan

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then why continue the passage & attack Bush/subsequent conservative movement, rather than simply stick to complimenting (in his mind anyway) Reagan?

Because Obama is a great campaigner. He is so good at it that he can't quite shut off the campaigner in him once the campaign is over. There is a decent amount of things he has said or done during this 1st term that in reality was more of what you do and say when campaigning than in governing.

I have said all along he needed to stop blaming Bush once he was elected. Yeah, Bush's policies were mostly bad and had a lot to do with the mess this nation is in. We got it. You're in. Instead of blaming him again, point the finger at those who are really in the way now, show what your programs would do and give people something they can grab on to and say "this is why we elected you."

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by Young Drachma

'This Does Not Represent Us': Moving Photos of Pro-American Rallies in Libya - Politics - The Atlantic Wire

This is great. Thank you.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Because Obama is a great campaigner. He is so good at it that he can't quite shut off the campaigner in him once the campaign is over. There is a decent amount of things he has said or done during this 1st term that in reality was more of what you do and say when campaigning than in governing.

I have said all along he needed to stop blaming Bush once he was elected. Yeah, Bush's policies were mostly bad and had a lot to do with the mess this nation is in. We got it. You're in. Instead of blaming him again, point the finger at those who are really in the way now, show what your programs would do and give people something they can grab on to and say "this is why we elected you."

You're confused - the quote we were talking about wasn't from Obama. Was from Walter Mondale, ex (D) Presidential candidate, in his autobiography written years ago (IDK when exactly).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

You're confused - the quote we were talking about wasn't from Obama. Was from Walter Mondale, ex (D) Presidential candidate, in his autobiography written years ago (IDK when exactly).

The Good Fight: A Life in Liberal Politics (2010).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Rainmaker - sorry to hear that one of those killed was your friend. I hope that my posting this link is taken as I mean it: sharing a considerable tribute being paid to him by gamers & not as something that increase the pain of your loss.
My Way News - Libya attack victim remembered by online gamers

Thank you, I appreciate it. I've seen a lot of tributes on him that reference his gaming. Pretty incredible to see the response by people he interacted with in that world. He was really into EVE and other computer based games. I guess it's something you do when you have a lot of down time in whatever country you're working out of (he moved around a lot on temporary basis for work).

[CrimsonFox]

Is that anything like this? --->

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

This is great. Thank you.

Ditto, always good to see things like this amongst all the extremist footage the news likes to loop.

[AlexB]

Reports this morning suggesting the 2 hour film might not be genuine (the only bit anyone appears to have seen is the 15 minute YouTube clip), and that the attacks were planned well in advance by groups linked to Al Qaeda for 911 significance.

They haven't expressly said this on the news but made me wonder if the clip was actually made by Al Qaeda in order to generate the response, as it seems to be so outlandish that even that mad US preacher who keeps threatening public Koran burnings wouldn't have gone that far

[JPhillips]

It isn't an Al Qaeda plant. Here's a story on the guy behind the film.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...ks.php?ref=fpa

[Dutch]

I don't think the Al Qaeda needs to make that shit up. It's out there in spades on the internet. They just picked this one for their purposes.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I don't think the Al Qaeda needs to make that shit up. It's out there in spades on the internet. They just picked this one for their purposes.

This. I think it was a "rally cry" excuse.