Blu-ray/HD-DVD format war discussion thread.......

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Looks like you can now buy the Panasonic Blu-ray player and get 10 free BR movies. Also, gift cards being offered on the PS3........

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=280

Five Free Blu-ray Movies with Purchase of Player
Posted June 26, 2007 by Josh

The Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) has revealed an exciting offer for those of you who are still looking to pick up a Blu-ray player. If you purchase a Blu-ray player (including the PS3) between July 1st and September 30th, you will automatically qualify to receive 5 Blu-ray movies absolutely free. Combine this with existing offers (like the 5 free Blu-ray movies with purchase of a Panasonic DMP-BD10A), and you could receive up to 10 free Blu-ray movies with the purchase of a player.

But wait, there's more! If you decide you would like to purchase a PS3, Sony is offering a special deal through their retail Sony Style stores. Purchase a PS3, two games, and an extra controller from now until July 8th, and you will receive a $50 gift card.

From reading on another board, the list of Blu-Ray movies that you can get free through this offer is a bunch of crappy moves and none of the popular Blu-Ray movies are on it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

From reading on another board, the list of Blu-Ray movies that you can get free through this offer is a bunch of crappy moves and none of the popular Blu-Ray movies are on it.

The HD-DVD deal is a similar deal. They exclude the better discs. I'm not sure that's terribly surprising.

One thing I would note is that the term of this deal may signal when the PS3 price cut may occur. I sincerly doubt that Sony will offer a price cut with the free disc deal. The free 5 discs deal ends September 30th. I would be shocked if they didn't do the price drop right after that deal expires for the holiday season. Hopefully MS does something similar and gets a price war going.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

The HD-DVD deal is a similar deal. They exclude the better discs. I'm not sure that's terribly surprising.

One thing I would note is that the term of this deal may signal when the PS3 price cut may occur. I sincerly doubt that Sony will offer a price cut with the free disc deal. The free 5 discs deal ends September 30th. I would be shocked if they didn't do the price drop right after that deal expires for the holiday season. Hopefully MS does something similar and gets a price war going.

LOL, the HD-DVD options are awful. I can't quite remember exactly what they are, but I remember looking at it at work, and deciding that it wasn't even worth sending in the form.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Looks like the HD-DVD players are going to stay at the lower prices after the rebates end. Good news as it should continue to force down the prices on HD player, which is always good for the consumers.

Toshiba lowers SRP on HD-DVD players
Toshiba lowers SRP on HD-DVD players Announcement
By Henning Molbaek
FIRST PUBLISHED Jun 29, 2007
This July 1st Toshiba will lower the SRP of it's HD-DVD players.

The new prices are:

Toshiba HD-A2: $299
Toshiba HD-A20: $399
Toshiba HD-XA2: $799 (Same as before)

This means that even after their $100 in-store rebate stopped they will continue to sell them at low prices.

[Pyser]

Paramount goes HD DVD exclusive
Studio nixes Blu-ray format for future releases
By DANIEL FRANKEL, BEN FRITZ
Talk Back - post a comment

'Blades of Glory'
The high-definition DVD format war took a strange twist Monday as Paramount and DreamWorks Animation announced that their future releases will be exclusively in HD DVD.

Move is the third by Par in the ongoing format war. In 2004, studio announced that it would release its movies in HD DVD. A year later, with HD DVD seemingly waning, it decided to release in Blu-ray as well...

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Pyser

Paramount goes HD DVD exclusive
Studio nixes Blu-ray format for future releases
By DANIEL FRANKEL, BEN FRITZ
Talk Back - post a comment

'Blades of Glory'
The high-definition DVD format war took a strange twist Monday as Paramount and DreamWorks Animation announced that their future releases will be exclusively in HD DVD.

Move is the third by Par in the ongoing format war. In 2004, studio announced that it would release its movies in HD DVD. A year later, with HD DVD seemingly waning, it decided to release in Blu-ray as well...

Check the 'July Console Sales' thread.

[Pyser]

um...okay. but why the hell are we discussing the format war in a monthly gaming thread? (i mean, i know why, but im not reading that beast)

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Pyser

um...okay. but why the hell are we discussing the format war in a monthly gaming thread? (i mean, i know why, but im not reading that beast)

I have no clue either, and was asking myself the same thing.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I have no clue either, and was asking myself the same thing.

LOL......I'm not sure. Someone posted it there. I'm not to blame.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Pyser

um...okay. but why the hell are we discussing the format war in a monthly gaming thread? (i mean, i know why, but im not reading that beast)

It's not totally unrelated to the console war - after all, the decision by Sony to implement Blu-Ray in the PS3 is the biggest reason they've struggled so much since their launch.

[Pyser]

i understand they are linked. but i dont want to read 15 pages about all of that and how the ps2 is still selling inexplicably well just to know that paramount has picked a side in the format war.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

It's not totally unrelated to the console war - after all, the decision by Sony to implement Blu-Ray in the PS3 is the biggest reason they've struggled so much since their launch.

And the biggest reason they're winning the format war. I wish there was a way we could pinpoint the opportunity cost of winning the format war versus the slower sales of the console. It certainly would be an interesting financial study.

[gstelmack]

Does anyone have some specific sales numbers, especially of titles? My guess is that the real answer is not that Blu-Ray is "winning", but rather that Blu-Ray is losing the format war less than HD-DVD is. Both are losing out to regular DVDs and IPTV downloads and HD OnDemand / PPV.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Does anyone have some specific sales numbers, especially of titles? My guess is that the real answer is not that Blu-Ray is "winning", but rather that Blu-Ray is losing the format war less than HD-DVD is. Both are losing out to regular DVDs and IPTV downloads and HD OnDemand / PPV.

But that's like saying that the PS2 is blowing away the 360 and the PS3. It's premature to say that because the 360 and PS3 haven't reached that mass appeal price point where they maximize demand with profit. Similarly, the DVD medium is well established, but that doesn't mean that the HD mediums can't become big players. Next holiday season is when the HD media is going to start maximizing exposure as the HDTV adoption rate will grow quite a bit and the price point on both players should be sub-$200.

As far as movie sales go, Blu-ray has sold around 2.3 million with HD-DVD selling about 1.5 million units.

[rowech]

Could it be that our technology is simply going too fast compared to what folks actually can afford or want?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

Could it be that our technology is simply going too fast compared to what folks actually can afford or want?

I think that's definitely the case with the consoles and somewhat with the DVD media market. This stuff came out a year or two too early, but they forced each other into releasing the formats/consoles. This stuff really shouldn't have come out until the digital TV transition in 2009.

[Pyser]

i consider myself a movie buff. i have a large dvd collection. i own an hdtv. and i have absolutely no desire to upgrade to dvds in hd, in either format.

for me to get the most out of those formats, i would need to buy a 1080p tv, yes? i dont see myself doing that for a few more years, at least. besides, from what ive seen, a nicely upconverted dvd is comparable to 1080p dvds in hd.

i suspect i am far from alone.

[cartman]

Until the sales of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD titles become greater than a rounding error of regular DVD sales, neither format can claim supremacy. Those figures quoted my Mizzou above are overall sales for the formats since inception. Added together, that total is less than what Shrek 2 sold by itself during its first week on DVD.

[Marc Vaughan]

Just to put my tuppence worth in - I looked at getting an High Definition TV a year or so back and came to the conclusion I couldn't really see the difference between them when looking at the HD and non-HD televisions instore ... so I didn't bother.

I'll occassionally look at the 'wall' of TVs in Walmart or a similar store to see if things have changed, but so far all I see is a bigger picture - nothing miraculous to behold really.

(I DO have bad eyesight, but I expected to see 'something' better myself)

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Just to put my tuppence worth in - I looked at getting an High Definition TV a year or so back and came to the conclusion I couldn't really see the difference between them when looking at the HD and non-HD televisions instore ... so I didn't bother.

I'll occassionally look at the 'wall' of TVs in Walmart or a similar store to see if things have changed, but so far all I see is a bigger picture - nothing miraculous to behold really.

(I DO have bad eyesight, but I expected to see 'something' better myself)

The difference between a regular TV showing a normal feed and an HDTV showing an HD feed is huge - if you've looked at an HDTV showing HD content and you couldn't really see a difference, you really need to get your lens prescription updated

Now, an HDTV showing a normal feed actually looks worse than a standard TV (IMO), so if that's what you've seen then yeah, you haven't really seen an HDTV doing what it does best.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

The difference between a regular TV showing a normal feed and an HDTV showing an HD feed is huge - if you've looked at an HDTV showing HD content and you couldn't really see a difference, you really need to get your lens prescription updated

Now, an HDTV showing a normal feed actually looks worse than a standard TV (IMO), so if that's what you've seen then yeah, you haven't really seen an HDTV doing what it does best.

I agree....I don't know how you can take two similar tvs and not see the HD difference. Especially when it comes to sports.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by cartman

Until the sales of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD titles become greater than a rounding error of regular DVD sales, neither format can claim supremacy. Those figures quoted my Mizzou above are overall sales for the formats since inception. Added together, that total is less than what Shrek 2 sold by itself during its first week on DVD.

That was my point. Thanks for saying it better.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Just to put my tuppence worth in - I looked at getting an High Definition TV a year or so back and came to the conclusion I couldn't really see the difference between them when looking at the HD and non-HD televisions instore ... so I didn't bother.

I'll occassionally look at the 'wall' of TVs in Walmart or a similar store to see if things have changed, but so far all I see is a bigger picture - nothing miraculous to behold really.

(I DO have bad eyesight, but I expected to see 'something' better myself)

Marc:

Take your favorite PC soccer game. Play it at 640x480 on a regular CRT monitor. Then play it at 1280x720 on a widescreen LCD. Tell me again you can't tell the difference. As mentioned a few posts up, my guess is you weren't looking at material that showed the difference. As much as I love American football in HD, Hockey is actually a sport that benefits the most. I suspect soccer / World football would be the same for the same reason: see more of the field while still being able to identify the ball and players, so you see more of the setup of the play.

I agree that movies and your average television show don't benefit all THAT much from going 480P -> 720P, but sports sure do.

[Marc Vaughan]

Feeling tempted now - but I like to see what I'm getting in advance and from what you chaps are indicating none of the stores seem to have their systems setup to show the advantages of the HD systems.

(the only thing I've seen an 'advantage' with so far as in the UK Games stores generally had 360s running on HDTV's and that did look funky compared to SD .. however I don't have a 360 currently ..)

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Feeling tempted now - but I like to see what I'm getting in advance and from what you chaps are indicating none of the stores seem to have their systems setup to show the advantages of the HD systems.

(the only thing I've seen an 'advantage' with so far as in the UK Games stores generally had 360s running on HDTV's and that did look funky compared to SD .. however I don't have a 360 currently ..)

I've heard similar stories about UK and EU stores that they don't always set up their HD demos correctly. I honestly get extremely frustrated watching American football or soccer games on a non-HD screen now that I have HD. It's like night and day. You have no idea how much you've been missing until you get a good HDTV with HD channels.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've heard similar stories about UK and EU stores that they don't always set up their HD demos correctly. I honestly get extremely frustrated watching American football or soccer games on a non-HD screen now that I have HD. It's like night and day. You have no idea how much you've been missing until you get a good HDTV with HD channels.

Apologies if you thought I meant it was only American stores I'd found this in - I first looked at HD in UK stores and can confirm they are equally awful in failing to show them in a decent light at all.

With regards to HD would you only get it with a large screen or do you think a 31/32 inch sceen is large enough to appreciate it in?

(as thats the maximum room we have available in our cabinet at the moment, we do need to replace the cabinet one day as it was a freebie and is falling apart .... but, one expense at a time and all that )

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Apologies if you thought I meant it was only American stores I'd found this in - I first looked at HD in UK stores and can confirm they are equally awful in failing to show them in a decent light at all.

With regards to HD would you only get it with a large screen or do you think a 31/32 inch sceen is large enough to appreciate it in?

(as thats the maximum room we have available in our cabinet at the moment, we do need to replace the cabinet one day as it was a freebie and is falling apart .... but, one expense at a time and all that )

I have a 32 inch HDTV in my bedroom. It's easy to tell even on that size screen the difference in picture quality. You'll fall over giggling the first time you see a soccer game in HD.

[gstelmack]

My TV in the living room is 34". Depends on how far away you want to sit.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Apologies if you thought I meant it was only American stores I'd found this in - I first looked at HD in UK stores and can confirm they are equally awful in failing to show them in a decent light at all.

With regards to HD would you only get it with a large screen or do you think a 31/32 inch sceen is large enough to appreciate it in?

(as thats the maximum room we have available in our cabinet at the moment, we do need to replace the cabinet one day as it was a freebie and is falling apart .... but, one expense at a time and all that )

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...seBVCookie=Yes

If you don't mind buying a rear projection, that's a 37" sony that's designed to fit in most existing entertainment centers that can hold a 32" tube tv. Most of the time you can get it for $899.

[stevew]

Dola

Does anyone have the x360 HDDVD add on? It's starting to drop in price, and I think I'd much rather use it to play standard dvd's than using my xbox.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by stevew

Dola

Does anyone have the x360 HDDVD add on? It's starting to drop in price, and I think I'd much rather use it to play standard dvd's than using my xbox.

I don't yet, but I'll probably be getting it for Christmas.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

I have no idea if this will do well or not, but there's going to be a new Blu-ray player that plays movies in 3D. Release is expected in early 2008. Obviously a niche product early on.

[rowech]

Are there any companies making a blu-ray/HDDVD combo player?

[Pyser]

i dont know the name of have any info, but yes, there are combo players out there

[Eaglesfan27]

A quick google search reveals that Samsung will have 2 models that are combo players out before the end of the year. They will retail for 1049 and 1499 respectively.

http://news.com.com/8301-10784_3-9749669-7.html

[Neuqua]

LG has a hybrid Hddvd/blu-ray player but from reviews, the features are very barebone and hardly worth the $900 pricetag.

[stevew]

The LG player doesn't even fully play all the menus on HDDVD's supposedly.

[rowech]

It just seems to me, this would be where to put your money right now if you were a company. Some of these companies choose one side or the other, why not try and walk both sides at a cheap enough pricetag to have people want to buy your machine.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Some really strong rumors swirling in the hi-def media and retail industries........

The head of Warner Bros. just stepped down. He was a proponent of HD-DVD and Toshiba reportedly offered him money last week (much like the Paramount deal) to switch over, but WB executive board voted to refuse the deal. The rumor is that he was forced out because he failed to meet his projections, mainly because the HD-DVD end of their business didn't pan out due to sluggish sales compared to Blu-ray.

Also, lots of strong rumors that Wal-Mart will be exclusively carrying a $199 Blu-ray stand-alone player by the holidays. Might be a reason to hold off on a purchase.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Some really strong rumors swirling in the hi-def media and retail industries........

The head of Warner Bros. just stepped down. He was a proponent of HD-DVD and Toshiba reportedly offered him money last week (much like the Paramount deal) to switch over, but WB executive board voted to refuse the deal. The rumor is that he was forced out because he failed to meet his projections, mainly because the HD-DVD end of their business didn't pan out due to sluggish sales compared to Blu-ray.

Also, lots of strong rumors that Wal-Mart will be exclusively carrying a $199 Blu-ray stand-alone player by the holidays. Might be a reason to hold off on a purchase.

$$$

[stevew]

what better $199 BD player or $35 2nd hand VCR?

[stevew]

And I really think Sony is dropping the ball by not including Blu Ray players in a lot of their retail type dvd surround systems. For instance, the DAV-IS10 http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/...52921665098460 is already $799, which basically makes it a niche product. May as well make that guy a grand, and make it BD compatable.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Rough blow for Toshiba today as they lost their only ally on the computer front. Acer (which will reportedly be buying Gateway) will no longer be HD-DVD exclusive. This leaves Toshiba as the only computer producer who carries only HD-DVD drives for their computers.

Also, newest sales figures are in for both the EU and the U.S. Blu-ray still maintains their 2:1 edge in the U.S. and holds an even larger margin in the EU mainly due to more retailers overseas switching to BR only.

[gstelmack]

BD sales dropping. HD as well, albeit slower. Neither format selling well at all.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8764

[Bee]

I saw where 6 new brands of HD-DVD players would be shipping during the 4th quarter of this year. New players are shipping from: Integra, Shinco, Ventura, Alpine, Onkyo and Samsung. That's in addition to the 3 new players from Toshiba.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

BD sales dropping. HD as well, albeit slower. Neither format selling well at all.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=8764

As small as the relative market is right now, there's going to be quite a bit of volitility caused by something as simple as one big release. Casino Royale and '300' were a couple that caused a huge spike. Transformers will likely cause a pretty large HD-DVD spike as well. It's just the nature of the beast at this point.

It should be noted however that this is only a North American phenomenon as far as the competition goes. The battle in Japan is all but over with 96% last I saw going to Blu-ray. The EU countries are currently running around 70-75% in favor of Blu-ray. Also amazing to note that HD media in general is selling much better in the EU than it is in Japan or the U.S. Not sure why, but it is doing well.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

I saw where 6 new brands of HD-DVD players would be shipping during the 4th quarter of this year. New players are shipping from: Integra, Shinco, Ventura, Alpine, Onkyo and Samsung. That's in addition to the 3 new players from Toshiba.

Yeah, the IFA conference is currently in session, so you'll see a ton of new announcements this week. I've seen announcements for 10 new HD-DVD players and 12 new BR players. Honestly, 80-90% of them are far too expensive for the mass market, but the companies like to parade out the biggest and best each year.

I saw that Sony is going to release a 200-disc BR player for $3,500. Talk about overkill.......I'm not even sure there are 200 BR movies out yet.

[Bee]

Something else from the IFA that I found interesting

70% of HD media on notebooks are HD DVD so the company say they are "starting from a high platform". Estimates are that by the end of 2007, there will be 30 million more HD DVD notebooks sold, with 16 million of those to consumer, not corporate customers.

An industry insider we talked to said: "This appears to be smart a move from Toshiba, and although an optical drive could be argued as a very different format to a next-gen DVD player, if it increases software sales, and take up of their next-gen platform among even a moderate proportion of those 16 million notebook customers, you could argue that HD DVD could win this 'war' by the back door".

No idea if it will work out that way or not, but it's an interesting approach.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Bee

Something else from the IFA that I found interesting

No idea if it will work out that way or not, but it's an interesting approach.

Yeah, you'll note a few posts up that Toshiba lost its last two allies on that front. Toshiba is now the only company exclusively producing laptops with optional HD-DVD drives. All other companies now offer both drives or are BR exclusive, so I'm not sure that's quite the advantage that person quoted might imply.

As gstelmack mentioned, this market is still very much in its infancy. That 70% that he cited likely is only in the tens of thousands of movies sold if not smaller, which isn't much compared to the millions of DVD's that move during a similar time frame. I'm not sure either format will make any headway on the other based on laptop drives. They're just not that big of a market.

[sterlingice]

I was thinking on the way home about movie collections and how people like to possess hard copies of things. Pretty much everyone from the poor to the rich has a movie collection. I'm really starting to think the common refrain of "just wait, digital downloads will take over" is pretty overblown for at least another generation.

Most everyone can afford the $30-$50 one time cost for a DVD player and maybe $10 every month or two, once BluRay and HD start getting down to DVD prices as the technology gets more affordable. It's a bit higher of a leap for people to sustain the level of ~$300+ for a computer or digital recording system, $30-$50 a month for high speed internet, and then $5+ for a movie and those prices aren't really dropping, particularly not at the rate optical media will start dropping in the next year or two when it becomes mainstream.

That said, it's like the PS2 and PS3- one of the biggest competitors for BR and HD are older DVDs. Now it looks like more of a race- will the price of next gen optical media get cheaper or will something happen to move that price for digital downloads? I think the latter will happen before the sooner in a substantial way to actually make this race worth something.

SI