NFL Week 11 Discussion

[Eaglesfan27]

Well, Cutler kept it to the under, but that was a nice way to end the game.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Well, Cutler kept it to the under, but that was a nice way to end the game.

Survive and advance.

If only the Cowboys/Giants had blown it.

[RainMaker]

As I said in Week 1, Jay Cutler is Jeff George. This trade will set the franchise back years.

[Neuqua]

So did anyone else catch Devin Hester's bare ass shown on the NBC replay?

[Butter]

I was all set to come in here and gloat about the Steelers loss to the Chiefs... then the Bengals had to go and bungle away a game that they had in the palm of their hands. That loss was worse than the Steeler loss... at least the Chiefs could actually potentially be a decent team. The Raiders have an OK defense, but that's all they have. They made Gradkowski look like John Elway in the last 2 minutes.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I was all set to come in here and gloat about the Steelers loss to the Chiefs... then the Bengals had to go and bungle away a game that they had in the palm of their hands. That loss was worse than the Steeler loss... at least the Chiefs could actually potentially be a decent team. The Raiders have an OK defense, but that's all they have. They made Gradkowski look like John Elway in the last 2 minutes.

Actually I think they Chiefs have far less overall talent than the Raiders. The Chiefs do have a in the average range QB, and the Raiders have a black hole, but the Raiders have far more talent elsewhere.

[Kodos]

I wonder how likely it is that Shanahan will be reunited with Cutler in Chicago.

[remper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As I said in Week 1, Jay Cutler is Jeff George. This trade will set the franchise back years.

This franchise has been in the shitter for a while from top to bottom. Really, who would the Bears have drafted with the first rounders they gave up? The Bears have a big problem with assessing and developing talent. I've been hearing it here and there on sports radio here in Chicago that what we see now is the culmination of 4-5 years of poor drafting and player development. I've got to agree.

Jay came in and was supposed to be the savior, but he's still young and needs some time with his receivers to get on the same page. Not that Cutler is blame free, he's trying to do too much with not a lot around him.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

How about for Jamarcus Russell and 20 million dollars?

Ok, done!

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I wonder how likely it is that Shanahan will be reunited with Cutler in Chicago.

Not with 2 years still left on Lovie's deal after this season. No way the McCaskey's pay Lovie for 2 more seasons and pay more than $5 million a year for Shanahan too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by remper

This franchise has been in the shitter for a while from top to bottom. Really, who would the Bears have drafted with the first rounders they gave up? The Bears have a big problem with assessing and developing talent. I've been hearing it here and there on sports radio here in Chicago that what we see now is the culmination of 4-5 years of poor drafting and player development. I've got to agree.

Jay came in and was supposed to be the savior, but he's still young and needs some time with his receivers to get on the same page. Not that Cutler is blame free, he's trying to do too much with not a lot around him.

I agree with you on the bad drafts and talent development. But the team hasn't been in the shitter. They did make the Super Bowl a few years ago and missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker last year. It's not going in the right direction, but it's also not like we're the Lions or Browns right now.

So if the team needs to be rebuilt, why bring in a Quarterback who will cost you a lot of draft picks? Why bring in a supposed star QB when you have no offensive line and no wide receivers?

But I think the bigger question is whether Jay Cutler is really that good. He missed a lot of wide open passes last night that were touchdowns. He was off target a lot of others. He made some bad decisions throughout the game and really only made one good play all game. What is he doing that Kyle Orton couldn't do for much less?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by dervack

Not with 2 years still left on Lovie's deal after this season. No way the McCaskey's pay Lovie for 2 more seasons and pay more than $5 million a year for Shanahan too.

Agreed. McCaskeys are too cheap. They'll force him to fire Ron Turner or something as the scapegoat. I'm not a fan of Turner, but he called a really good game last night.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I agree with you on the bad drafts and talent development. But the team hasn't been in the shitter. They did make the Super Bowl a few years ago and missed out on the playoffs by a tiebreaker last year. It's not going in the right direction, but it's also not like we're the Lions or Browns right now.

So if the team needs to be rebuilt, why bring in a Quarterback who will cost you a lot of draft picks? Why bring in a supposed star QB when you have no offensive line and no wide receivers?

But I think the bigger question is whether Jay Cutler is really that good. He missed a lot of wide open passes last night that were touchdowns. He was off target a lot of others. He made some bad decisions throughout the game and really only made one good play all game. What is he doing that Kyle Orton couldn't do for much less?

Cutler reminds me of Jim Everett. Has rabbit ears for the media, gets a little nervous, when he should be gunning it. It kept Everett from reaching his full potential, and I could see the same happening to Cutler.

[Lathum]

Cutler has been horrid so far, but I don't think you can gloss over the fact he has no weapons in Chicago. I Denver he had a bona-fied all pro and a solid vet. In Chicago he has shit and it is obvious he is forcing things to much.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Cutler reminds me of Jim Everett. Has rabbit ears for the media, gets a little nervous, when he should be gunning it. It kept Everett from reaching his full potential, and I could see the same happening to Cutler.

So you are saying Jim Rome is going to keep calling him Jessica during an interview?

(too obscure?)

[stevew]

I need two fantasy points to win my game. Hopefully Slaton and VY can combine for this victory.

[Lathum]

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by cartman

So you are saying Jim Rome is going to keep calling him Jessica during an interview?

(too obscure?)

Jamie.

[MikeVic]

My stance on Cutler isn't great right now. Yeah he doesn't have many weapons, but Forte and Olsen are pretty good. So it's not like he has absolutely nothing. He was also responsible for the trade, and they gave up a lot for him. In hindsight, maybe they should've gotten him another WR.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

My stance on Cutler isn't great right now. Yeah he doesn't have many weapons, but Forte and Olsen are pretty good. So it's not like he has absolutely nothing. He was also responsible for the trade, and they gave up a lot for him. In hindsight, maybe they should've gotten him another WR.

His OLine is absolutely horrible as well. I won't judge Cutler until Turner is gone and they upgrade the line to at least bad.

I'd still rather take my chances with him over the next 10 years the Orton.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Atocep

His OLine is absolutely horrible as well. I won't judge Cutler until Turner is gone and they upgrade the line to at least bad.

I'd still rather take my chances with him over the next 10 years the Orton.

I think the problem is that didn't they give up something like two firsts and some other pick in the deal too? Would you rather have Cutler, or Orton and those picks?

It seems odd looking back, that if their OLine was bad before the trade and they had no WRs, why get Cutler? It's like trading for an elite RB but having no line to block for him. The RB looks bad, and the team looks bad for trading for him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

His OLine is absolutely horrible as well. I won't judge Cutler until Turner is gone and they upgrade the line to at least bad.

I'd still rather take my chances with him over the next 10 years the Orton.

So is Aaron Rodgers offensive line and he still finds a way not to throw 18 interceptions. I'm not saying Cutler has to have Pro Bowl numbers, but he is getting top QB money now and he's putting up Jake Delhomme numbers. There are a lot of star QBs that have had bad o-lines, bad WR, or no running game and managed to not completely implode.

And last night Cutler had time to throw and had open receivers. He missed on 3 wide open touchdowns. He got great field position throughout. Sorry, that's on him.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I think the problem is that didn't they give up something like two firsts and some other pick in the deal too? Would you rather have Cutler, or Orton and those picks?

It seems odd looking back, that if their OLine was bad before the trade and they had no WRs, why get Cutler? It's like trading for an elite RB but having no line to block for him. The RB looks bad, and the team looks bad for trading for him.

Jerry Angelo would have traded the picks anyway. He's stated multiple times that he doesn't like first round picks because the high bust potential combined with the financial commitment. That's why the bears are constantly trading down each draft.

I won't defend that line of thinking. I think Angelo and Lovie should both be shown the door after this season, but considering the ownership it's highly unlikely. Angelo has shown too much of an attachment to players and his draft strategy is terrible.

You have to put a team together somehow. The pieces won't just all fall into your lap the same time. The bears had a chance to make a trade for a QB that, even if he ends up being the 2nd coming of Jeff George, is better than any QB the team has had since McMahon. Cutler's upside is still top 5 QB and when you look at how his mechanics have eroded this season (he likes to fade away on throws now because he gets so much pressure) and how poorly he's used sometimes (Cutler can't throw while rolling out, yet Turner seems to like to call designed rollouts) I'm willing to be patient.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There are a lot of star QBs that have had bad o-lines, bad WR, or no running game and managed to not completely implode.

Name the number of star QBs that have bad Olines, bad Wide Receivers, and no running game and didn't implode.

I'm 100% certain that you aren't going to name a lot.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So is Aaron Rodgers offensive line and he still finds a way not to throw 18 interceptions. I'm not saying Cutler has to have Pro Bowl numbers, but he is getting top QB money now and he's putting up Jake Delhomme numbers. There are a lot of star QBs that have had bad o-lines, bad WR, or no running game and managed to not completely implode.

And last night Cutler had time to throw and had open receivers. He missed on 3 wide open touchdowns. He got great field position throughout. Sorry, that's on him.

Also, Green Bay's OLine isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2009 OFFENSIVE LINES

Rodgers also isn't playing in a new system with a completely incompetent offensive coordinator.

[RendeR]

Rodgers also happens to have a fantastic set of receivers. That saves a LOT of mis-plays.

[RainMaker]

Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, Tony Romo.

I can remember some Patriots teams that had no good WR and no running game whatsoever. Marino and Elway not exactly having great supporting casts. Heck, Kyle Orton last year had essentially the same team and threw 12 interceptions all last year.

But it's not the fact that he's been bad, it's the fact we gave up a lot of draft picks to get him. He's been worse than Orton with the same offense and we don't have any way to rebuild our team since we have no draft picks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Also, Green Bay's OLine isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2009 OFFENSIVE LINES

Rodgers also isn't playing in a new system with a completely incompetent offensive coordinator.

I don't like Ron Turner, but how is last night his fault? He had 3 play calls that were wide open touchdowns. He had other play calls with open receivers that would have extended drives. This team should have put up 30 points last night if the QB was capable of hitting wide open receivers.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Jerry Angelo would have traded the picks anyway. He's stated multiple times that he doesn't like first round picks because the high bust potential combined with the financial commitment. That's why the bears are constantly trading down each draft.

I won't defend that line of thinking. I think Angelo and Lovie should both be shown the door after this season, but considering the ownership it's highly unlikely. Angelo has shown too much of an attachment to players and his draft strategy is terrible.

I'm not a big Angelo fan, but I don't think that strategy is horrible. You have to pay a lot of guaranteed money to a first round pick and many turn out to be busts. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks are much less of an investment and often do turn out to be quality starters. He has taken his shot at first rounders with Tommie Harris (which was a huge success at first) and had major failures to with Michael Haynes, Cedric Benson, etc.

But he did build a Super Bowl team with those mid-level draft picks. Lance Briggs, Devin Hester, Matt Forte, Bernard Berrian, and Charles Tillman were all mid-round picks. They had a lot of other starters and big contributors that were as well. I thought he was incredibly good at drafting in the mid-rounds early in his career but has really had some bad drafts over the last few years. In any event, that strategy of trading down helped him build a Super Bowl team and one that made the playoffs regularly the years before.

Originally Posted by Atocep

You have to put a team together somehow. The pieces won't just all fall into your lap the same time. The bears had a chance to make a trade for a QB that, even if he ends up being the 2nd coming of Jeff George, is better than any QB the team has had since McMahon. Cutler's upside is still top 5 QB and when you look at how his mechanics have eroded this season (he likes to fade away on throws now because he gets so much pressure) and how poorly he's used sometimes (Cutler can't throw while rolling out, yet Turner seems to like to call designed rollouts) I'm willing to be patient.

But therein lies the problem. You brought in Cutler and now have nothing left to build a team around him. We didn't have a 1st or 2nd round pick this year. We don't have a 1st or 2nd round pick next year. How do you upgrade the WR and OL positions without top draft picks? There just aren't a lot of starting left tackles sitting there in the 3rd round.

So I'm saying the Bears would have been better keeping Orton who is serviceable and almost took this team to the playoffs (and still is young and can develop) and using those draft picks to fill in the missing pieces on the offensive line and at WR. If Cutler was the next superstar QB, I can understand getting him at all costs. But he doesn't look to be even close to that and there is no hope in the future for building this team up through the draft.

[RendeR]

Actually Atocep, based on his performance in Denver Cutler is far BETTER when throwing on teh run than he is static in the pocket. This was discussed ad-nauseum on NFL network all last week. So technically Cutler is doing far worse than he should be as the play calling has been working toward his strengths based on his past play.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, Tony Romo.

I can remember some Patriots teams that had no good WR and no running game whatsoever. Marino and Elway not exactly having great supporting casts. Heck, Kyle Orton last year had essentially the same team and threw 12 interceptions all last year.

But it's not the fact that he's been bad, it's the fact we gave up a lot of draft picks to get him. He's been worse than Orton with the same offense and we don't have any way to rebuild our team since we have no draft picks.

Every QB you named had something going for him at the time. Cutler doesn't have any of the things mentioned above.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not a big Angelo fan, but I don't think that strategy is horrible. You have to pay a lot of guaranteed money to a first round pick and many turn out to be busts. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks are much less of an investment and often do turn out to be quality starters. He has taken his shot at first rounders with Tommie Harris (which was a huge success at first) and had major failures to with Michael Haynes, Cedric Benson, etc.

The problem is Angelo has made it clear that he has no intentions of keeping those picks in the first place. Do you think he's going to get fair value in a trade with someone that knows he's going to dump those picks? I don't think the strategy is terrible, but his approach is. Angelo trades down because he isn't confident in his ability to draft guys in the top rounds because of past failures.

If I was confident that he was trading down because he got a good deal and had players identified that he likes then I'd feel differently.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But therein lies the problem. You brought in Cutler and now have nothing left to build a team around him. We didn't have a 1st or 2nd round pick this year. We don't have a 1st or 2nd round pick next year. How do you upgrade the WR and OL positions without top draft picks? There just aren't a lot of starting left tackles sitting there in the 3rd round.

First Angelo needs to realize that the current cast isn't getting it done and by the time they got the pieces in place to make it happen the current cast that's actually worth keeping is going to be too old to to do much of anything.

I would pretty purge the roster and treat Cutler like a #1 pick that you have to build a team around. They have some pieces in Hester, Forte, Olsen, and Knox, but keeping guys like Tillman, Harris, Urlacher, and Briggs around serves no purpose.

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So I'm saying the Bears would have been better keeping Orton who is serviceable and almost took this team to the playoffs (and still is young and can develop) and using those draft picks to fill in the missing pieces on the offensive line and at WR. If Cutler was the next superstar QB, I can understand getting him at all costs. But he doesn't look to be even close to that and there is no hope in the future for building this team up through the draft.

It's very hard to win consistently with a game manager at QB. The Ravens have been able to do it because they've had a defense that has defied all trends. Offenses in the NFL are far more consistent from year to year than defenses. I'd much rather take my chances on a potential franchise QB and build an offense than try to win with defense and a game manager QB. Your window to win is going to be longer and your team will be more consistent.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Actually Atocep, based on his performance in Denver Cutler is far BETTER when throwing on teh run than he is static in the pocket. This was discussed ad-nauseum on NFL network all last week. So technically Cutler is doing far worse than he should be as the play calling has been working toward his strengths based on his past play.

The problem is he's been terrible throwing on rollouts this year and Ron Turner doesn't adjust. This is the same offensive coordinator that runs all 160lbs of Garrett Wolfe between the tackles, fails to get Devin Hester the ball in space, just realized that Forte is better as a receiver than a runner with the line in the shape that it's in, and treated Olsen like a slow possession tight end up until recently.

With that said, Cutler's play has been erratic and disappointing this year. However, I'm not going to judge the trade based on what he's doing this year because of the number of things he has working against him. I'm definitely worried, but more-so because young QBs who are put in situations like this typically have a hard time recovering or developing properly and I have a complete lack of faith in the Bear's organization doing the things they need to do.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The problem is he's been terrible throwing on rollouts this year and Ron Turner doesn't adjust. This is the same offensive coordinator that runs all 160lbs of Garrett Wolfe between the tackles, fails to get Devin Hester the ball in space, just realized that Forte is better as a receiver than a runner with the line in the shape that it's in, and treated Olsen like a slow possession tight end up until recently.

With that said, Cutler's play has been erratic and disappointing this year. However, I'm not going to judge the trade based on what he's doing this year because of the number of things he has working against him. I'm definitely worried, but more-so because young QBs who are put in situations like this typically have a hard time recovering or developing properly and I have a complete lack of faith in the Bear's organization doing the things they need to do.

Cutler has a QB rating over 100 outside the pocket. How is that terrible?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Cutler has a QB rating over 100 outside the pocket. How is that terrible?

I'm going off what I've seen so I could very well be wrong and if so I'll admit it.

I do strongly feel that Culter is getting unfair criticism. If he's still playing like this when he has an offensive line then I'm willing to place blame on him. Right now, though, his play has regressed considerably from when he was in Denver. He was a top 5 QB last season at age 25. There aren't many QBs that have managed to pull that off. It's the type of player I think is worth taking a risk on a building around.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The problem is Angelo has made it clear that he has no intentions of keeping those picks in the first place. Do you think he's going to get fair value in a trade with someone that knows he's going to dump those picks? I don't think the strategy is terrible, but his approach is. Angelo trades down because he isn't confident in his ability to draft guys in the top rounds because of past failures.

If I was confident that he was trading down because he got a good deal and had players identified that he likes then I'd feel differently.

He trades down often but it's not like he dumps every first round pick. He's traded first round picks twice, and once was to acquire 2 first round picks later in the draft. I think it's silly to assume he would trade down when he's shown he will pick if he likes someone at the spot.

Originally Posted by Atocep

First Angelo needs to realize that the current cast isn't getting it done and by the time they got the pieces in place to make it happen the current cast that's actually worth keeping is going to be too old to to do much of anything.

I would pretty purge the roster and treat Cutler like a #1 pick that you have to build a team around. They have some pieces in Hester, Forte, Olsen, and Knox, but keeping guys like Tillman, Harris, Urlacher, and Briggs around serves no purpose.

While I don't have an issue cutting Harris, I don't know what the point would be in blowing up the team by getting rid of your top players. If he's doing it for draft picks, I can sort of understand it, but that just sets up a situation where you're in rebuilding mode for the next few years with a high priced QB wasting his prime years. If you're going to rebuild, don't bring in a franchise QB in his prime.

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's very hard to win consistently with a game manager at QB. The Ravens have been able to do it because they've had a defense that has defied all trends. Offenses in the NFL are far more consistent from year to year than defenses. I'd much rather take my chances on a potential franchise QB and build an offense than try to win with defense and a game manager QB. Your window to win is going to be longer and your team will be more consistent.

I agree with building around offenses, I just think this offense is many years away from being a top offense. Orton wasn't the QB of the future, but he was serviceable till you were able to build an offense you could surround a top QB with.

You also seem to forget that Cutler has been worse in virtually the same offense than Orton was. I don't know if you've been watching Bears games, but Cutler does not look like a franchise QB you want to build your team around.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You also seem to forget that Cutler has been worse in virtually the same offense than Orton was. I don't know if you've been watching Bears games, but Cutler does not look like a franchise QB you want to build your team around.

Against Pittsburgh, Seattle, Detroit, and Arizona he has. The problem is his highs this year have been been offset by lows that are just brutal. Cutler was the only reason the team was able to make the Arizona game competitive.

The flashes are still there. It's a matter of whether or not it's a problem with him or with the supporting cast that's causing the inconsistencies.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm going off what I've seen so I could very well be wrong and if so I'll admit it.

I do strongly feel that Culter is getting unfair criticism. If he's still playing like this when he has an offensive line then I'm willing to place blame on him. Right now, though, his play has regressed considerably from when he was in Denver. He was a top 5 QB last season at age 25. There aren't many QBs that have managed to pull that off. It's the type of player I think is worth taking a risk on a building around.

I've watched him in every game. He's had some bad protection and issues at WR, but he's also consistently missed on passes that NFL quarterbacks should make. He missed multiple TDs last night that would have won them the game.

And where do you get this top 5 QB last season? He was 16th in QB rating, 2nd in interceptions, and 7th in touchdowns. He was 3rd in yards, but that's also because he threw a ton more than most quarterbacks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Against Pittsburgh, Seattle, Detroit, and Arizona he has. The problem is his highs this year have been been offset by lows that are just brutal. Cutler was the only reason the team was able to make the Arizona game competitive.

The flashes are still there. It's a matter of whether or not it's a problem with him or with the supporting cast that's causing the inconsistencies.

The Arizona stats came in garbage time. He didn't even show up in the first half. I'll give him a good game against Pittsburgh, but Seattle and Detroit are horrible. I mean Brady Quinn looked like Dan Marino against Detroit last week.

[Lathum]

Kenny Britt baby!

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Cutler's upside is still top 5 QB and when you look at how his mechanics have eroded this season (he likes to fade away on throws now because he gets so much pressure) and how poorly he's used sometimes (Cutler can't throw while rolling out, yet Turner seems to like to call designed rollouts) I'm willing to be patient.

In Denver he made a majority of his big plays on roll outs. He had over a 100 rating on rollouts while a 61 rating in the pocket. Perhaps he just sucks.

[miami_fan]

Cutler gets unfair criticism because he was given unfair praise when he was evaluated at the time of the trade. Cutler was supposed to come in and make Devin Hester a #1 receiver just like he "made" Brandon Marshall a #1 receiver. Greg Olson was supposed to go to the highest level because Cutler was finally there. Cutler was good (great?) enough to take the average bodies on the Bears' offense and offensive staff. and take them to the division title before Favre arrived in Minnesota. He was billed as a guy who could overcome most of the deficiencies that were pretty obvious when Kyle Orton was the starting QB.

Now, reality has set in. Jay Cutler needs a Brandon Marshall just as much as a Brandon Marshall needed Jay Cutler. Jay Cutler needs a quality offensive coach just as much as that coach would need Jay Cutler. Jay Cutler needs pieces around him to be successful. That is not the way he was portrayed in the offseason.

[jbergey22]

Very well said Miami fan.

[cartman]

Great game in Houston tonight. Tied 14 all at the half.

[Neuqua]

I'm moreso with Atocep on my stance with Cutler.

This isn't the same basic offense as last year. John Tait was one of the top tackles and we lost him to retirement and replaced him with a completely washed up Orlando Pace. That mixed in with Olin Kreutz regressing and Chris Williams (another Angelo first rounder) showing up to be a bust so far, this offensive line is in complete shambles. I am not sure what Matt Forte's deal is either, hopefully he's just suffering from the same offensive line problems that Jay is struggling with and he isn't a one year wonder. Again, not close to the same offense last year with Orton.

Last night I will fully admit that Jay missed on three passes that even I'd be able to make. But I am giving him the benefit of the doubt in the sense that I think a lot of the pressure might be getting to him, and as Collinsworth said, he may have had a lapse in confidence. I hope this won't be a constant problem because quite honestly, by trading all our early round picks (2nd for Gaines Adams, huh?) I think it's going to be a while before we can set him up with even an average chance.

Rodgers has a better offensive line, and Donald Driver and Greg Jennings to throw to. Even Romo has a better set of WRs than Cutler does. Roethlisberger throws to Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes, either of whom would immediately become the best WR the Bears have.

I wouldn't consider myself a Lovie/Angelo fan but I wasn't one of those who were calling for their heads as of late. But seeing where the team is now, and realizing the rebuilding that needs to take place, I do wish the organization would spend the money to go in another direction.

We're in trouble, that is for sure.

[jbergey22]

Cutler really doesnt understand the position is a big problem as well. The good ones(Brady, Manning, Brees, Favre) will give up something early in the game to set up something later in the game. You'll see Favre throw a bunch of 5 yard passes to the TE or flat passes to the RBs and wonder what the hell is he doing. Then later in the game you will see the same play with a WR running wide open.

Forte is a huge mystery to me. He doesnt have the biggest holes to run through however he should be able to get free once in awhile. I think he may just be slow and really cant make anything happen on his own. I believe last year he got by on being smart and unknown.

[RainMaker]

Forte seems to have lost a step. Not sure if it's something we never saw before or the fact he had so many touches last year.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I've watched him in every game. He's had some bad protection and issues at WR, but he's also consistently missed on passes that NFL quarterbacks should make. He missed multiple TDs last night that would have won them the game.

And where do you get this top 5 QB last season? He was 16th in QB rating, 2nd in interceptions, and 7th in touchdowns. He was 3rd in yards, but that's also because he threw a ton more than most quarterbacks.

Cutler was 5th in DVOA and 7th in DYAR.

It's also not true that Orton has been better than Cutler with the same offense, since Orton is 10th in DVOA and 11th in DYAR this year.

[hoopsguy]

No one watching MNF?

[Galaxy]

Did Young just hi-five the ref?