Who from your favorite team will be on the Mitchell Report?

[terpkristin]

Originally Posted by Logan

That was a list of non-BALCO names, I believe.

Oh der.
I'm so stupid sometimes.
*smacks head*

Well, I gave you the list alphabetically by last name, anyway. I can pretend I was useful.

/tk

[Coffee Warlord]

Jerry Hairson needs to ask for his money back if he did roids.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I'm in no way defending Selig, but I'm calling BS here. Sheffield was a user himself and is known to speak out of his ass.

He tried calling Bonds out on the BALCO thing when he was later tied directly to it himself.

Agreed. They are all guilty. Selig is a bum, and Sheffield is a loser. Nice job MLB. After this, the NFL just pulled even FURTHER ahead of you in the sports race.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Jerry Hairson needs to ask for his money back if he did roids.

So does Jason Grimsley.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Agreed. They are all guilty. Selig is a bum, and Sheffield is a loser. Nice job MLB. After this, the NFL just pulled even FURTHER ahead of you in the PR race.

Fixed


Don't think the NFL doesn't have just as big of a problem.

[RomaGoth]

MEMO TO STEPHEN A SMITH:

"In October 2006, after the Los Angeles Times reported that the names of Clemens and McNamee were among those that had been redacted from an affidavit in support of a search warrant for the residence of Jason Grimsley as allegedly involved with the illegal use of performance enhancing substances..."

LOL. How dark IS that cave, Stephen A?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Fixed


Don't think the NFL doesn't have just as big of a problem.

Obviously they do when OL/DL are in excess of 350 lbs. these days. Yes, humans are bigger than we were 100 years ago, but c'mon. In any case, the NFL is much better at sweeping stuff under the rug (i.e. Shawn Merriman received very little press).

[Subby]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

i.e. Shawn Merriman received very little press

Really? How do you quantify how much press someone receives? I have always wondered when reading statements like that.

[Butter]

Did I see a guy named Nook in there?

Nook?

[Carman Bulldog]

The most depressing part of this (after admittedly only skimming it) is that the report for the most part is based around only three suppliers (BALCO, the Mets guy and McMann or whatever - I can't be bothered to look it up).

Think of how many other suppliers are out there that would have been getting steroids to other players that didn't make this report.

Also, what is there, 8 Yankees from the 2000 World Series team? Better throw an asterisk on that one.

[dacman]

McNamee is tied to Rodomski (Mets guy) -- the 3rd supplier would be Signature Pharmacy.

[RomaGoth]

The Dodgers really should look at their record-keeping techniques in the future:

"In the notes of the October 2003 meetings among Dodgers officials, it was reportedly said of Brown: Kevin Brown – getting to the age of nagging injuries . . . Question what kind of medication he takes . . . Effectiveness goes down covering 1st base or running bases. Common in soccer players and are more susceptible if you take meds to increase your muscles –
doesn’t increase the attachments. Is he open to adjusting how he takes care of himself? He knows he now needs to do stuff before coming to spring training to be ready. Steroids speculated by GM."

Between this and the comments the Dodgers wrote down on Paul Lo Duca, they have some serious explaining to do, eh? Or not, I suppose, since it IS all about the bottom line in the end anyway.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Subby

Really? How do you quantify how much press someone receives? I have always wondered when reading statements like that.

Compared to the baseball steroid/HgH debacle, Merriman was a blink of an eye in the media coverage. That is all that I am saying.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Carman Bulldog

Also, what is there, 8 Yankees from the 2000 World Series team? Better throw an asterisk on that one.

That is a good argument, and I am a Yankees fan. But 2 things should be considered here; 1) how many of the players linked to it on that Yankees team were integral parts of the championship team? Clemens, Pettite - yes. Grimsley? That is laughable. 2) How many players on other championship teams before and after the 2000 Yankees team also were on 'roids? Maybe we should just put an asterisk next to every name and every team in every year. That way all of our bases are covered....

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Fixed


Don't think the NFL doesn't have just as big of a problem.

They DON'T have a problem.

The issue here isn't that guys are using drugs. Yes, some guys careers are ruined. Some guys will never make it to the hall because of this. But that isn't it.

This is a PR issue. The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids because they can hold up their contract and go through their history and show that they did everything they could do to clean things up.

The NFL sits back and laughs their asses off at these other sports. It'll happen in hockey and basketball too, because those sports have been lax. The way to attack this is to go on a PR campaign and come up with a testing policy BEFORE it becomes a widespread problem. Then if something comes up, you can say you tried.

Baseball swept it under the rug and pretended the problem didn't exist. Now they are paying the price. Baseball has nobody else but themselves to blame for this. Instead of people laughing at the NFL's policy, they should be looking at the NFL as the model league for staying ahead of these problems.

[RomaGoth]

Just noticed Paul Byrd and Ismael Valdez. Huh.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by TroyF

They DON'T have a problem.

The issue here isn't that guys are using drugs. Yes, some guys careers are ruined. Some guys will never make it to the hall because of this. But that isn't it.

This is a PR issue. The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids because they can hold up their contract and go through their history and show that they did everything they could do to clean things up.

The NFL sits back and laughs their asses off at these other sports. It'll happen in hockey and basketball too, because those sports have been lax. The way to attack this is to go on a PR campaign and come up with a testing policy BEFORE it becomes a widespread problem. Then if something comes up, you can say you tried.

Baseball swept it under the rug and pretended the problem didn't exist. Now they are paying the price. Baseball has nobody else but themselves to blame for this. Instead of people laughing at the NFL's policy, they should be looking at the NFL as the model league for staying ahead of these problems.

Couldn't agree with you more. MLB has swept this stuff under the rug for so long that they don't even know what is legal or healthy anymore. Bud Selig is a complete moron whom tried to escape these problems but was unable to. Now he is being forced to confront it and the results are really quite ugly. Selig should read up on what Paul Tagliabue did with the NFL and get a clue.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Compared to the baseball steroid/HgH debacle, Merriman was a blink of an eye in the media coverage. That is all that I am saying.

I disagree with this. Merriman was talked about all year in the press. When he made the pro bowl, the league changed the rule on allowing players to make it who had suspensions in that year. It even dragged out to the DPOY voting when Taylor talked about how he should win it because he was clean.

The NFL didn't take a PR hit though. Why? Because THEY SUSPENDED Merriman. If Merriman had set a sack record and the was linked with a clinic providing steroids to multiple NFL all pros and those players had never received a suspension or had never even been tested? Now they have the problem MLB has and now they get slammed in PR.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Steven A. Smith on his show is saying that he never heard Roger Clemens mentioned in regards to steroids before today. Talk about living in a cave. This guy has his own tv/radio show?? Really? I need to send off my pilot episode to ESPN ASAP.

Good thing I heard the show. What he said was he had never heard Roger Clemens's name in regards to 'roids in the same way that the Steroid Five (Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro and Giambi) were mentioned. As you pointed out, Clemens was named in L.A. Times report. However the immediate reaction from most of the media and many fans that there was no evidence that he used anything. Today is the first time I have heard widespread media attention (acceptance?) of Clemens's alleged steroid use.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Compared to the baseball steroid/HgH debacle, Merriman was a blink of an eye in the media coverage. That is all that I am saying.

You are talking about one player versus an entire professional sport. Of course there is a difference. That doesn't mean that Merriman did not receive "a lot" of coverage. His story came up in numerous different news cycles, too (the suspension, the aftermath, the playoffs, the DPoY, the Pro Bowl...)

[Thomkal]

Just wondering for those who've had a chance to look over the report. How much (if any) is Bud Selig implicating in covering up or obstructing plans to deal with the steroid issue? ESPN was seeming to say that very little of the blame was left at Selig's door.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I thought Steve Phillips comments on ESPN just now were interesting. Nothing new really -- basically he acknowledged that GM's "knew" (i.e. believed but had no evidence) certain players were on the juice -- but that without anyone else raising cane about it that he (nor any GM) were willing to put their own jobs on the line by going to the owner & demanding something be done.

[watravaler]

I'm sorry, MLB used this investigation as a PR stunt, a complete joke...carry on MLB, with one less fan...

Frank Thomas(god bless him) and Giambi the only players who talked with Mitchell? ESPN defending/spinning the situation at every turn? I know it makes economic sense for them to sweep this under the rug, but please, fuck you MLB...

[JonInMiddleGA]

I think it's kind of interesting that, of the ESPN talking heads, Kruk & Phillips seem to be the most accepting of the findings of the report while Kurkjian & Gammons are much more dismissive of it.

Can't help but notice that the former have pretty much already made their living from baseball while the latter are dependent upon continued fan interest to continue making their livings.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

That is a good argument, and I am a Yankees fan. But 2 things should be considered here; 1) how many of the players linked to it on that Yankees team were integral parts of the championship team? Clemens, Pettite - yes. Grimsley? That is laughable.

Taken from somewhere else...

2000 world series:

Game 1 Starter
Andy Pettitte (steroids)
Yankees win

Game 2 Starter
Roger Clemens (steroids)
Yankees win

Game 3 Starter
Orlando Hernandez
Mets win

Game 4 Starter
Denny Neagle (steroids)
Yankees win

Game 5 Starter
Andy Pettitte (steroids)
Yankees win

Yankees Steroid Users in 2000 World Series:
30.2 IP, 5 ER, 1.46 ERA

Non-Steroid Users:
16.1 IP, 9 ER, 4.95 ERA

Just saying.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by watravaler

I'm sorry, MLB used this investigation as a PR stunt, a complete joke...carry on MLB, with one less fan...

Frank Thomas(god bless him) and Giambi the only players who talked with Mitchell? ESPN defending/spinning the situation at every turn? I know it makes economic sense for them to sweep this under the rug, but please, fuck you MLB...

Did you actually read the report, there were a number of other players that spoke to Mitchell besides those two.

Edit... Unless you are talking about current players...

[JS19]

Clearly should award the 2000 WS to the Mets!!!

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Logan

Taken from somewhere else...



Just saying.

I forgot Neagle even played for them in that series. If it is really THAT important to everyone, the Yankees should give back the 2000 world series title. Of course, they still have 25 more of them to admire.....

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think it's kind of interesting that, of the ESPN talking heads, Kruk & Phillips seem to be the most accepting of the findings of the report while Kurkjian & Gammons are much more dismissive of it.

Can't help but notice that the former have pretty much already made their living from baseball while the latter are dependent upon continued fan interest to continue making their livings.

ESPN has more talking heads than Mr. Rogers neighborhood. With that being said, if there is one person that probably took something that is not being talked about, it is Kruk. That guy has the biggest melon I have ever seen (except for maybe Stewie Griffin in The Family Guy, but that is a cartoon).

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I think it's kind of interesting that, of the ESPN talking heads, Kruk & Phillips seem to be the most accepting of the findings of the report while Kurkjian & Gammons are much more dismissive of it.

Can't help but notice that the former have pretty much already made their living from baseball while the latter are dependent upon continued fan interest to continue making their livings.

Another conclusion could be that Phillips and Kruk are/were on the inside where Kukjian and Gammons despite their reputation and respect level were always outsiders.

Ive said this numerous times before, but I know FOR A FACT that major college football programs had a major problem in the late 90s (not saying they didnt before or dont now, but I KNOW they did then) and it was amazing how candidly it was discussed amongst fellow "brothers" (even from different programs) but never breathed when anyone else was present or to an outsider.

Maybe its naievity but I find it entirely possible that Kruk and Phillips KNOW what goes on and Gammons and TIMMAY only can speculate and feel betrayed by the athletes they felt were their friends, now realizing they most likely lied to them "in confidence"

[RomaGoth]

Anyone watching/listening to Selig? What a moron. I wish he would go back to the Brewers.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by TroyF

They DON'T have a problem.

The issue here isn't that guys are using drugs. Yes, some guys careers are ruined. Some guys will never make it to the hall because of this. But that isn't it.

This is a PR issue. The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids because they can hold up their contract and go through their history and show that they did everything they could do to clean things up.

The NFL sits back and laughs their asses off at these other sports. It'll happen in hockey and basketball too, because those sports have been lax. The way to attack this is to go on a PR campaign and come up with a testing policy BEFORE it becomes a widespread problem. Then if something comes up, you can say you tried.

Baseball swept it under the rug and pretended the problem didn't exist. Now they are paying the price. Baseball has nobody else but themselves to blame for this. Instead of people laughing at the NFL's policy, they should be looking at the NFL as the model league for staying ahead of these problems.

You're grouping a problem with steroid use in the NFL with the NFL's ability to PR the situation. The NFL doesn't have a problem with steroids in the court of public opinion. The NFL does have a problem with players using. Just the same as baseball, the difference is they've PR'd the situation immeasurably better than baseball has.

The NFL has the weakest union in all of sports and one that would be a joke outside of sports. Baseball has to fight tooth and nail to get anything done while the NFL can go to Gene Upshaw, ask him anything, and he'll bend over backwards to help the commissioner. Baseball proposed steroid testing in 1994 and the talks based around that collective bargaining agreement led to the season being canceled. To get baseball on the field again they just dropped steroid testing from the collective bargaining talks.

Instead of blaming all of baseball, people should be looking directly at the player's union and asking them why they continue to defend and protect criminals.

The NFL is far from a model league in how they delt with steroids. They've delt with them as public has knowledge increased. They had their eyes on dollars, not protecting players.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Anyone watching/listening to Selig? What a moron. I wish he would go back to the Brewers.

I was actually kind of surprised that Selig's comments were as strong as they were & even the tiniest bit optimistic about the tone overall.

Problem is that the commissioner's office is pretty neutered by the players union and I'd be shocked that they agreed to anything that was truly "in the best interest of baseball".

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Anyone watching/listening to Selig? What a moron. I wish he would go back to the Brewers.

I know Selig is hated by most baseball fans, but does anyone actually have reasons for this?

I'm willing to bet over 90% of the problems people have with Selig and his perceived incompetence can be tied directly to having to deal with the player's union.

[Blade6119]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Albert Pujols!

Originally Posted by stevew

Glad to see Pujols was finally called out for the roid freak that he is.

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

If they threw pujols on there, they'd throw arod on there if they had proof

Pujols isnt on the list SI just put on their front page, so im not sure why he was on the list someone else posted earlier.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Blade6119

Pujols isnt on the list SI just put on their front page, so im not sure why he was on the list someone else posted earlier.

Yeah... he was on that first - mostly false - list. He's not one of the guys talked about in the report.

...which, as I'm reading it, I remember why I never wanted to be a lawyer.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I know Selig is hated by most baseball fans, but does anyone actually have reasons for this?

I'm willing to bet over 90% of the problems people have with Selig and his perceived incompetence can be tied directly to having to deal with the player's union.

My personal opinion is that Selig is a supreme pushover and a man of little action. He had to have known about the steroids problem at least since he became commissioner, probably even earlier from his days with Milwaukee. Now if this is the case, why did he not do something about it sooner, rather than later? As someone earlier posted, why not put a drug testing policy in place BEFORE all of this becomes public? Yes, the players union in baseball has immense power, but it takes 2 sides to offer a product such as this. Instead of bending over for the union, Selig should have stood firm and required a mandatory drug testing regiment. Perhaps an entire season would have been missed due to a player strike (a.k.a. the NHL), but the players would have eventually come around because they want to play and get their huge salaries. True, most of them could play in Japan or something, but who really believes that players like Pujols, Jeter, Rodriguez, and others would go to Japan for more than one season? Selig is an embarrassment to anybody in a leadership role. The steroid problem came full circle on his watch, and he was asleep the whole time.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Couldn't agree with you more. MLB has swept this stuff under the rug for so long that they don't even know what is legal or healthy anymore. Bud Selig is a complete moron whom tried to escape these problems but was unable to. Now he is being forced to confront it and the results are really quite ugly. Selig should read up on what Paul Tagliabue did with the NFL and get a clue.

Selig proposed steroid testing in 1994. The new collective bargaining agreement signed after the strike left it out. Owners just wanted the players back on the field. This meant it wasn't even up for discussion again until 2002.

In 2001 Selig implemented testing on minor leaguers not on the 40-man roster of MLB teams since those on the 40 man roster are protected by the player's association.

Selig's problem isn't action on his part. His problem is a player's union and his inability to handle PR proactively rather that reactively.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I believe perhaps the most influential thing in this whole situation is something that Selig alluded to toward the end of his presser: that this is really a societal problem, not just a baseball problem.

Let's be real here, there's a lot more people upset over the idea that a few home runs or strikeouts might have been affected than by the number of people willing to commit felonies in order to get those dingers & K's. And if that's the majority (and of those who actually follow baseball I imagine it is) then we're so fucked up that this isn't going to really be fixed no matter what MLB does. Players, owners, et al don't exist in a vacuum, they're just parts of society like all the rest of us. They're a mirror of the rest of us and if we don't care about the more important issues here then how/why do we expect them to?

[molson]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

My personal opinion is that Selig is a supreme pushover and a man of little action. He had to have known about the steroids problem at least since he became commissioner, probably even earlier from his days with Milwaukee. Now if this is the case, why did he not do something about it sooner, rather than later?

I think you answered your own question there.

Selig is weak, and the union is strong. I don't know if anyone could have stood up to them, honestly. The only way to "save" baseball from payroll and steroid issues would have been to shut it down - long term. The union wouldn't agree to help the game until seasons (plural) went down the drain. By then there would probably be a new player-friendly league.

Back in '94 though, it wasn't about the issues, with the media and fans. It was about "They're greedy - it's our game!!!!". I'm not blaming the fans. But I don't think there was really any way to fix any of this.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

My personal opinion is that Selig is a supreme pushover and a man of little action. He had to have known about the steroids problem at least since he became commissioner, probably even earlier from his days with Milwaukee. Now if this is the case, why did he not do something about it sooner, rather than later? As someone earlier posted, why not put a drug testing policy in place BEFORE all of this becomes public? Yes, the players union in baseball has immense power, but it takes 2 sides to offer a product such as this. Instead of bending over for the union, Selig should have stood firm and required a mandatory drug testing regiment. Perhaps an entire season would have been missed due to a player strike (a.k.a. the NHL), but the players would have eventually come around because they want to play and get their huge salaries. True, most of them could play in Japan or something, but who really believes that players like Pujols, Jeter, Rodriguez, and others would go to Japan for more than one season? Selig is an embarrassment to anybody in a leadership role. The steroid problem came full circle on his watch, and he was asleep the whole time.

Selig's power in neutered not only by the player's union but by the owners as well. If you remember, baseball got rid of Faye Vincent who was baseball's last true commissioner in a vote of no confidence mainly because he sided with the players in the collusion scandal.

Selig was then named chairman of baseball's Executive Council and his main job is to answer to the owners. It always has been. What he has managed to do is get a lot of the power previous commissioner's have had, but he still isn't the voice of the league in the same way the NFL's commissioner is.

As I said above, Selig proposed steroid testing in '94. His job after the strike, however, was to get baseball back on the field before it became about as relavent as the NHL. Owners weren't prepared for the strike and they were losing money faster than the player's union was.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I was actually kind of surprised that Selig's comments were as strong as they were & even the tiniest bit optimistic about the tone overall.

I've heard a lot of interviews with him - he actually seems like smart guy who understands the game and where it's going. He's just overpowered by the union.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

I've heard a lot of interviews with him - he actually seems like smart guy who understands the game and where it's going.

Then again there's the whole All-Star game mess, which kind of makes that description hard to really get behind too.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then again there's the whole All-Star game mess, which kind of makes that description hard to really get behind too.

I think it fits in - the guy's awful under pressure.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then again there's the whole All-Star game mess, which kind of makes that description hard to really get behind too.

True. I would love to support the guy, but I have seen nothing from him to warrant my support. Instead, he is a weak man whom is (as mentioned above) overpowered by the player's union. It is unfortunate that they don't all see the benefit of drug testing and how the careers of all these players will be viewed in 20 years. Not to mention the possibility that many of these players will die very young (i.e. Caminiti).

So now we get a World Series home field advantage determined by steroid popping guys in a staged all-star game in a bloated league.

This is a sad day for baseball, no matter how you look at it.

[Atocep]

Following the release of the Mitchell report, Chairman Henry A. Waxman and Ranking Minority Member Tom Davis released the following statement:

“This is a sad day for Major League Baseball but a good day for integrity in sports. It’s an important step towards the goal of eliminating the use of performance enhancing substances.

“The Mitchell report is sobering. It shows the use of steroids and human growth hormone has been and is a significant problem in Major League Baseball. And it shows that everyone involved in Major League Baseball bears some responsibility for this scandal.

“We are going to ask Senator George Mitchell, Commissioner Bud Selig, and the President of the Major League Players Association, Don Fehr, to testify at a House Oversight and Government Reform hearing on Tuesday, December 18. We look forward to their testimony on whether the Mitchell report’s recommendations will be adopted and whether additional measures are needed.

“We want to commend Commissioner Selig for authorizing this investigation and thank Senator Mitchell for his dedication to this effort.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the reason for this is to get Fehr in front of the House Oversight Commitee to ask him if he's willing to accept the recommendations from Mitchell and if not, why.

[Buccaneer]

Somewhat anti-climactic since many of you nailed a lot of the players in the predictions.

The part I liked best was saying that these f'n cheaters created an unfair, unnatural imbalance. Unlike past drug problems in baseball (where it was a much higher percentage of users), as well as other sports including track&field, cycling and football (yes, I said football, where if you not using, you're not good enough to play), the smaller percentage of users in the Steroids Era created aberations.

My hope going forwards is that ALL of these players will be (or continue to be) condemned and those targeted for the HOF, get no more than the 25% they deserve...forever. There is no need to erase records because there is no precedent of it in baseball (Jackson is still among the top lifetime BA and Rose is still the hits leaders).

Dumb question. I didn't see two of four poster boys (along with Bonds and Clemens) for the Steroids Era: McGwire and Sosa.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Dumb question. I didn't see two of four poster boys (along with Bonds and Clemens) for the Steroids Era: McGwire and Sosa.

Well that's the problem with "comdemnation" and building up anyone not on this list - it can't possibly claim to cover everyone and everything.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by molson

Well that's the problem with "comdemnation" and building up anyone not on this list - it can't possibly claim to cover everyone and everything.

But it can cover those ON the list.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Dumb question. I didn't see two of four poster boys (along with Bonds and Clemens) for the Steroids Era: McGwire and Sosa.

Quite honestly, this was surprising at first but as I did a bit of research, it made a bit more sense.

What exactly is the evidence against McGwire and Sosa that show that they used steroids or HGH? Other than being accused by Canseco and their performance in front of Congress, I can't find any. There is no positive test. There is no link to a BALCO or such. Does that mean they did not use drugs? Hell no. Do I believe that they did? Absolutely. But I can't point to any conclusive evidence to say yes they did. Maybe that evidence will come in the future.