Euro 2004 Discussion

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Mac Howard

The best thing for France now is to lose by one or two goals to Switzerland. That will guarantee them second place regardless of what happens in the England/Croatia match and probably give them Greece in the next round

Not true, since head-to-head are the #1 tiebreakers. Like I explained above, an England-Croatia draw and Swiss victory will lead to a nailbiting scenario for the French-talking countries.

Originally Posted by Euro2004.com

Tie breakers
If teams finish level on points, then the winner of the match between the sides in question will finish highest, or should they have drawn, goal difference, followed by goals scored, qualifying record for the 2002 FIFA World Cup and UEFA EURO 2004™, a fair play ranking and finally either a penalty shoot-out or drawing of lots.

What I really hate is that I have yet to see what the call is on a Switzerland victory by less then 3 goals and an English draw. Will France advance on goals scored or are the English disregarded after they win the group NFL style?

NFL style, it could even get worse for England in the case if the Swiss winning by 6:
Swiss +3, England +2, France -5 -> Swiss win group
France beat England head-to-head -> France are second

The bad part of this is that France can influence who they'll play, unlike the teams in group A (Greece, Portgual and Spain).

[Mac Howard]

Yes, I've just been looking on the UEFA site for the tie breaker and the first is the head to head result between the two teams involved. I thought it was goal difference. As you say, only if England and Croatia draw will the goal difference come into play because three teams (Croatia, England and France) will be on four points and each team will have beaten and lost to one of the other two.

Interesting question here. If three teams have four points and they go to goal difference do they do this merely to decide the first and then go back to the remaining two head to head or use the goal difference to decide the two qualifiers?

I can see court cases here

[Darkiller]

the French sports daily "L'Equipe" explained this morning that if England/Croatia ends up a draw and France LOSES by a ONE or TWO goal difference (maximum) to Switzerland then France is in the Quarter-finals.

[Ajaxab]

Spoiler















I love seeing Italy's defensive tactics get punished. I don't know what Trappatoni was thinking taking off Cassano in the 70th minute. I do know Italians like to put the wall up after they score, but Del Piero should have been the first guy to head off, not Cassano. And what about Ibrahimovic's goal? Lucky? Skillful? Both? Hopefully Ajax can hold onto this guy.

[SirFozzie]

Status of Group C:

Sweden 4 Pts, +5 GD
Denmark 4 Pts, +2 GD
Italy, 2 Pts, 0 GD
Bulgaria, 0 Pts, -7 GD

This has potential to be another clusterfuck.

If there is a clear winner in Denmark-Sweden, they are automatically through, and the loser needs Italy to draw or lose to Bulgaria.

If there is a draw, and Italy beat Bulgaria, then we have a big batch of goofy. An Extra Large batch of goofy, even.

I THINK Sweden are through, with +5 GD. It will then come down to goal differential between Denmark and Italy (they drew, so H2H won't decide it), so Italy is automatically through if they beat Bulgaria by two goals, and score at least 3. (3-1 gets them through on total goals scored).

[Coder]

Italy dominates for 70 minutes... if they hadn't done their "all on defense" move they'd have won... 4-0.. at least.. Isaksson was amazing though.. saved the day for us.. Zlatan's goal is skill.. hehe.. look at him.. he's unbelievable every time he has the ball. Whenever a Swedish player had the ball I felt he was going to lose it, but when Zlatan had it, the thing was glued to his feet. He got more space against Bulgaria (of course), so you saw more of it there.

But honestly.. this was Italy's game.. they lost because of their hedgehog tactics. Sweden played 4 forwards at the end.. never before have I seen Sweden play with such an enormous attack.

I still haven't digested this... I'm.. wow... deserved tie? Not really... Wonderful tie? Heck yeah

[Katon]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Status of Group C:

Sweden 4 Pts, +5 GD
Denmark 4 Pts, +2 GD
Italy, 2 Pts, 0 GD
Bulgaria, 0 Pts, -7 GD

This has potential to be another clusterfuck.

If there is a clear winner in Denmark-Sweden, they are automatically through, and the loser needs Italy to draw or lose to Bulgaria.

If there is a draw, and Italy beat Bulgaria, then we have a big batch of goofy. An Extra Large batch of goofy, even.

I THINK Sweden are through, with +5 GD. It will then come down to goal differential between Denmark and Italy (they drew, so H2H won't decide it), so Italy is automatically through if they beat Bulgaria by two goals, and score at least 3. (3-1 gets them through on total goals scored).

Well, H2H results are actually relevant in the case of a draw - to be precise, goals scored. Sweden will have 1+x goals, where Sweden-Denmark finishes x-x; Denmark will have x goals; Italy will have one goal. So basically, if Sweden draw, they win the group. Unless Italy beat Bulgaria by six and Sweden-Denmark finishes goalless, that is.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group C.
Scores:
Bulgaria 0-2 Denmark
Italy 1-1 Sweden

Standings:
1. Sweden 4 pt (6-1)
2. Denmark 4 pt (2-0)
3. Italy 2 pt (1-1)
4. Bulgaria 0 pt (0-7) - knocked out

Next up:
Sweden-Denmark
Italy-Bulgaria
Sweden have an easy goal, draw 1-1 or higher and advance as group winners, 0-0 means that Italy need a victory by 5 or 6 to win the group.
Denmark can't settle for a draw, unless it's 2-2, in case Italy wins by 2 or 3 goals and see themselves knocked out with 5 points.
A Danish victory means winning the group for them.
Scary thing is, if Sweden and Denmark draw 2-2 or higher, Italy is knocked out based on tie breakers, no matter how big they beat Bulgaria.
Italy have a tough case, yet winning is a must anyway. To be sure, 2 goals difference is the least to be in the race, yet they have given it out of hands.
MIJ scenario: Italy-Bulgaria 3-0, Sweden-Denmark 2-2
A tough situation, especially for Italy. Bulgaria have nothing to play for and miss their star player Stilian Petrov in the last game. Now, I don't see Bulgaria do their job of keeping things exciting and lose big. The Scandinavian derby can go everywhere, both deserve to advance, but I bet one will be knocked out. In this scenario, however, both advance based on the number of goals.

The nine possible scenarios:
Sweden win, Italy win -> 1. Sweden, 2. Italy
Sweden win, Italy tie -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Sweden win, Italy lose -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Sweden tie, Italy win -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Sweden tie, Italy tie -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Sweden tie, Italy lose -> 1. Sweden, 2. Denmark
Denmark win, Italy win -> 1. Denmark, 2. Italy
Denmark win, Italy tie -> 1. Denmark, 2. Sweden
Denamrk win, Italy lose -> 1. Denmark, 2. Sweden
**** = Sweden, Italy or Denmark based on the following:
1. goals scored in the head-to-head amongst the three
Sweden 1 & Swe-Dan, Italy 1, Denmark 0 & Swe-Dan
2. goal difference in all games
Sweden +5, Denmark +2, Italy 0 & Ita-Bul
3. goals scored in all games
Sweden 6 & Swe-Dan, Denmark 2 & Swe-Dan, Italy 1 & Ita-Bul
4. Qualifying Results
1. Sweden, 2. Italy, 3. Denmark

[MIJB#19]

Can't you people wait for my updates?

Edit:
Anyway, I can see it happen now, the Swedish and Danes make a deal to draw 2-2 (or 3-3, or 4-4, or whatever) and eliminate the Italians, no matter how big their victory will be.

[SirFozzie]

Just saw the Sweden goal on the FSW replay of the game.

If that isn't the flukiest, cheekiest, most ARE YOU KIDDING ME goal of the tournament.. Euro drug testing will have to include the search for somebody smuggling 10,000 four leaf clovers in their hindquarters

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by Coder

Isaksson was amazing though..

BTW, looks like Rennes reached an agreement with Djurgården, so he will sign for 3 years, joining Kallstrom and replacing Cech

[Alf]

Manu, that is a good news !

[3ric]

Isaksson is a bargain for Rennes at that price - they'd better hurry to get his signature on paper before other clubs start bidding for him. With his performance last night, scouts were sure to take notice.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by 3ric

Isaksson is a bargain for Rennes at that price - they'd better hurry to get his signature on paper before other clubs start bidding for him. With his performance last night, scouts were sure to take notice.

Definately.. reading that Rennes only offerred Djurgården €700,000 for Isaksson to start off with makes me think that after this performance he'll be worth a lot more. The first offer was a disgrace for a number one keeper in the Swedish national team who's only 21 years old. Cech fetched Rennes what? €7 million? I'm sure there are teams willing to pay at least €2 million for Isaksson today.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by Coder

Definately.. reading that Rennes only offerred Djurgården €700,000 for Isaksson to start off with makes me think that after this performance he'll be worth a lot more. The first offer was a disgrace for a number one keeper in the Swedish national team who's only 21 years old. Cech fetched Rennes what? €7 million? I'm sure there are teams willing to pay at least €2 million for Isaksson today.

yeah but the main thing is that is contract ended in December, so 1.7M€ + 20% of the next sale (I read that was included, and probably some other clauses) is not a bad deal for Djurgården.

[BreizhManu]

Dola

and Cech was sold to Chelsea for 11M€ not 7M€

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by BreizhManu

Dola

and Cech was sold to Chelsea for 11M€ not 7M€

I look forward to next season. The classic scenario of buying a team (Chelsea) and watching how the chemistry plays out. It looks like England has its very own George Steinbrenner.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I look forward to next season. The classic scenario of buying a team (Chelsea) and watching how the chemistry plays out. It looks like England has its very own George Steinbrenner.

Actually, the "buying a team" bit was last summer. This year we're not going to be quite as active. I'd also quibble with the Abramovich-Steinbrenner analogy. Steinbrenner is notorious for interfering; Abramovich has just hired a coach (Mourinho) who insists on having complete control and has in the past walked out on a team (Benfica) after just eleven games when they refused to give him that.

Watching Holland-Czech Republic now, and that Robben kid is pretty good. Why hasn't a big club picked him up already?

Petr Cech has looked reasonably good so far. Almost everything he's had to deal with over the past game-and-a-half has been either unsaveable or routine, but he has dealt with everything he had a chance of dealing with.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Katon

Abramovich has just hired a coach (Mourinho) who insists on having complete control and has in the past walked out on a team (Benfica) after just eleven games when they refused to give him that.

I'm guessing it would take him longer to walk out on this one, considering he's going to miss the first ten matches of his Chelsea career.

CR

[BreizhManu]

horrible job by the referee, how can he not give at least a yellow card to robben ?

[BreizhManu]

Great match, the oranges made the same error as Italy against Sweden, trying to stay in defense isn't a good thing...

Else as I said, horrible job by the referee, at least on the tackle from behind by robben and on the red card (it was mainly nedved diving).

[Katon]

I loved it. Match of the tournament so far. Great spectacle and both future Chelsea players were superb. What's not to enjoy?

The Czechs are now the only team to have won their group after the first two rounds of matches, but Holland also ought to go through - they should beat Latvia and I can't see Germany beating the Czechs.

[Ajaxab]

Was Advocaat not paying attention to the Italy-Sweden game? Don't know what he was thinking taking Robben off to put on Bosvelt? Bosvelt of all people! How is this guy even on the team in the first place?

I listened to the game on the BBC. Was the officiating really as awful as the BBC team made it out to be? It sounded like the ref denied Holland a few penalties in the first half and then screwed them over with Heitinga's second yellow.

I'm glad the Dutch get to play Latvia in the next game, but they have to hope the Czechs give an effort.

[BreizhManu]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

I listened to the game on the BBC. Was the officiating really as awful as the BBC team made it out to be? It sounded like the ref denied Holland a few penalties in the first half and then screwed them over with Heitinga's second yellow.

didn't watch the first half so I can't tell for the penalties, but yes he screwed them on the red card (there was a little foul but nothing that deserved a yellow).

[3ric]

There was a situation with a blatant holding of Nistelrooy's shirt (in the box) that I couldn't believe the ref ignored... and the Heitinga ejection wasn't deserved at all.

[Alf]

Germans got away with it too when Latvia dersved a penalty for a shirt pulling in the box??? Damn it !

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

Was Advocaat not paying attention to the Italy-Sweden game? Don't know what he was thinking taking Robben off to put on Bosvelt? Bosvelt of all people! How is this guy even on the team in the first place?

I listened to the game on the BBC. Was the officiating really as awful as the BBC team made it out to be? It sounded like the ref denied Holland a few penalties in the first half and then screwed them over with Heitinga's second yellow.

I'm glad the Dutch get to play Latvia in the next game, but they have to hope the Czechs give an effort.

You make the dangerous assumption that Advocaat is capable of intelligent thought...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Aadik

You make the dangerous assumption that Advocaat is capable of intelligent thought...

He seems to enjoy pointing the finger at his players in the media. It wasn't my fault! They just didn't do it right! Contrast that against any of the top coaches who always take responsibility publicly, even it's not really their fault.

[scooter]

What a difference between those two games today. The Germany-Latvia game was the second worse game of the tournament (behind Bulgaria-Denmark). The Latvians deserved the win. Their forward Verpakovskis is pretty frisky. His agent may be getting a few calls after this tournament is over. I thought he deserved a penalty when Baumann and Worns halled him down. I thought the ref was giving Germany the benefit of the doubt on most of the calls in the match. Dismal effort by the German forwards.

The second game was a jewel. I saved it on Tivo and have even talked my wife into watching it. That is the way the game should be played - wide open, end-to-end. I thought van Nistelrooy should have gotten a penalty - he was Assaulted by Ujfalusi (that's with a capital A), but he got the make-up call on his goal. I know that he was not "offside" per the rules, but that rule is wrong! You can't tell me he didn't have an advantage from lingering in the box like that. The Czechs showed great character. Coming from one goal down against the Latvians and two goals down against the Dutch - that's story-book stuff. Van der Sar was unlucky to play so well without getting any points out the game - he deserved them, he was brilliant. Nedved was unlucky not to score on that long shot he had that rattled the crossbar.

Petr Cech has been steady. He hasn't overly impressed me yet. He had a couple good saves today, but I thought most of them were from proper positioning instead of being spectacular. I hope his role with Chelsea will be to push Cudicini for a starting role, but he is still young, and Cudicini is quality! (Cech definitely provides better cover than Ambrosini did this last year!)

[MIJB#19]

Just woke up after a tiring day ended by a 2-3 loss of our national team (note that I use our, despite the loss, unlike the most 'fans' would do).

My comments on Czech Republic-Netherlands:
1. This was the game of the tournament.
2. Robben is back to his world-class form, unlike I feared.
3. Bringing in Bosvelt to mark a world-class player like Nedved is a bad decission.
4. Pulling Robben looked like suicide, yet I agree that letting a player play more then 60 minutes after the injuries Robben had means wasting the player for the tournament and possibly destroying his career at age 20.
5. Van der Sar was awesome, but he could finally show this because the Dutch defenders played their worst game in, like, 20 years.
6. Reading the objective comments, I finally agree, the referee scr*wed our chances to not lose this game, not awarding about 3 penalties (on Dutch average meaning at least 1 goal) and Heitinga sent of for Nedved's amazing acting.
7. Going all-out-defense is one thing this Dutch selection can't, so we shouldn't gamble on it.
8. I won't get used to this color orange, let alone the on/off button printed on Van der Sar's jersey.
9. The Czechs are semi-finalists material, yet we (the Dutch fans) knew that before the tournament started.
10. Van Nistelrooij has proven he can score in consecutive games for the Dutch team, at last!
11. Having to hope that the Czechs try not to lose in a game that has no meaning to them is only 'wishful thinking'. Not to mention, do these Czechs really want to play this Robben and Van Nistelrooij duo again? I really doubt it.

That said, it's time for my 'traditional' scenario update.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group D.
Scores:
Germany 0-0 Latvia
Czech Republic 3-2 Netherlands

Standings:
1. Czech Republic 6 pt (5-3) - clinched group victory, clinched quarterfinals berth
2. Germany 2 pt (1-1)
3. Netherlands 1 pt (3-4)
4. Latvia 1 pt (1-2)
Netherlands hold tiebreakers over Latvia based on most goals scored in all games.

Next up:
Germany-Czech Republic
Latvia-Netherlands
Germany can't settle for a draw, because a winner in the other gamw would kno-ck them out.
A German loss will lethal, unless they end up with at least the same number of goals as the Dutch and the Dutch draw 0-0.
Latvia needs a victory to advance, plus Germany not winning.
Netherlands need a victory to advance in a German draw scenario.
Netherlands could advance with a 1-1 draw if they score more goals in all games then a losing German team, or if Germany lose by 2 goals.
MIJ scenario: Netherlands-Latvia 4-0, Czech Republic-Germany 0-2
I decided not to write a 'wishfull thinking' scenario. Just face it, the Czechs have nothing to win and are allowed to lose 10-0. plus, I think the Czechs are really happy to get rid of 'Oranje'. The Dutch will set things straight and win big.


The nine possible scenarios:
Germany win, Netherlands win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany win, Netherlands tie -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany win, Latvia win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany tie, Netherlands win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Netherlands
Germany tie, Netherlands tie -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Germany
Germany tie, Latvia win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Latvia
Germany lose, Netherlands win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Netherlands
Germany lose, Netherlands tie -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. ****
Germany lose, Latvia win -> 1. Czech Republic, 2. Latvia
**** = Netherlands or Germany based on:
most goals agains Latvia (Netherlands 0 & Ned-Lat; Germany 0)
then best goal difference in all games (Netherlands -1; Germany 0 & Cse-Ger)
then most goal scored in all games (Netherlands 3; Germany 1 & Cse-Ger)
or last case Germany winning tie-breakers based on qualifying results

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

He seems to enjoy pointing the finger at his players in the media. It wasn't my fault! They just didn't do it right! Contrast that against any of the top coaches who always take responsibility publicly, even it's not really their fault.

Advocaat took responsibility for the Robben-Bosvelt substitution as more then likely the #1 reason of losing, with 12 million Dutchmen watching him.
Besides, the way the team defended, we could have lost 2-6 as easy (or 5-6, knowing that we should have been given one or more penalties and that we were very unlucky in finishing.)

I agree that Advocaat hardly ever showed the quality of a top coach, but listening to his reasoning, I have to agree that Robben had to go off. Robben played his first game in 3 months (if not more), you can't risk a 20-year old to play more then about 60 minutes in such a big game and after such a long absence. Unless you want him to get injured again and be unavailable for the rest of the tournament and in important WC2006 qualifying matches. Having followed Robben closer the past years, it's something that has happened to Robben before and has probably wasted Marc Overmars' skills as world-class winger.

Not in favor of Bosvelt, however, Advocaat should have brought on a player that would be able to mark Nedved without fearing for a second yellow card, Michael Reiziger, the last one on the bench capable of doing that. Even better would have been brining Overmars for Robben, a fresh player of alomst the same caliber and talent like Robben.

[Alf]

I had France-Czech Republic for the final, so far it appears I am good for at least the Czechs being good. For France, that remains to be seen....

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Alf

I had France-Czech Republic for the final, so far it appears I am good for at least the Czechs being good. For France, that remains to be seen....

They'd better not beat Switzerland then, or else the French might end up facing the Czechs in the semi's.

[MIJB#19]

MIJ order of strength:
01 (05) Czech Republic - Hyped as potential champs and shown that against the Dutch. Now, I fear the worthless game against Germany could hurt the team form.
02 (02) Sweden - First an amazing performance, then a good 1-1 draw against Totti-less Italy. I still think being at your best on day 3 of a 3-week tournament will cost you later on.
03 (01) France - Not one, but two escapes only eventual champs get? Nope, this team is tired and not going to win it all.
04 (04) Netherlands - Narrow escape in game one, given too little game two. Semifinals material up front, but odds are slim that the Czechs will help them survive.
05 (07) Denmark - Fun to watch and with Gronkjaer back a team to watch and for opponents to watch out for.
06 (08) England - A good bouncing back against the Swiss, but Croatia is a level higher. Still a contender with the tools to reach the semi's.
07 (06) Spain - Young and talented, but not showing the results. Champs in the making. For 2006 or 2008, that is.
08 (03) Italy - No Totti, no glory. Italy are good, but playing defensive when you are better seems to not pay off anymore.
09 (10) Croatia - Failed to slaughter the Swiss in the heat, but against France they did show why they are expected darkhorses.
10 (09) Portugal - Despite the win over Russia, I keep with my earlier comments. Figo and co look dropping fast and the new generation is not ready after a long season.
11 (11) Germany - The WC2002 runners-up were the worst German team ever fielded? Nah, Euro2004 is worse. Never underestimate Germany, like I do now...
12 (12) Greece - The upset of the tournament thusfar and only the weakest opponent to go. Prepare yourselfs for a 3-0 loss... In the quarterfinals.
13 (14) Russia - With the best player sent home, this is the Russia we are familiair with, a team to fear. Don't be surprised if they beat Greece.
14 (15) Latvia - The little kid keeps improving. They can defend, but for a real stunt, you need to beat the Dutch. I am not convinced of that being possible.
15 (13) Switzerland - How on earth did this team reach Euro2004 ahead of Ireland and Russia at full stength?
16 (16) Bulgaria - See you back in WC2006, if you can keep Island, Hungary and either Croatia or Sweden behind you.

[Katon]

Originally Posted by scooter

What a difference between those two games today. The Germany-Latvia game was the second worse game of the tournament (behind Bulgaria-Denmark). The Latvians deserved the win. Their forward Verpakovskis is pretty frisky. His agent may be getting a few calls after this tournament is over. I thought he deserved a penalty when Baumann and Worns halled him down. I thought the ref was giving Germany the benefit of the doubt on most of the calls in the match. Dismal effort by the German forwards.

Don't forget Switzerland-Croatia, one of the worst matches in European Championship history. Other than that, I have to agree.

Originally Posted by scooter

Petr Cech has been steady. He hasn't overly impressed me yet. He had a couple good saves today, but I thought most of them were from proper positioning instead of being spectacular. I hope his role with Chelsea will be to push Cudicini for a starting role, but he is still young, and Cudicini is quality! (Cech definitely provides better cover than Ambrosini did this last year!)

Don't knock Ambrosio. He was signed as a third-choice 'keeper (behind Cudicini and Jurgen Macho) and played better than anyone could have expected. He's almost certainly gone now that Macho's fit and Cech has arrived, but he'll take the best wishes of most Chelsea fans with him. Neil Sullivan, on the other hand . . .

Cech looks very good for someone who's still about a decade short of the normal peak age for goalies; I don't think he'll replace Carlo straight away, but he's going to be good enough to have a real run at the starting job in a year or two.

If Arjen Robben can play like that in his first real match back from a major injury, he is more than welcome to the Bridge. On the other hand, while taking him off was a perfectly reasonable idea, why put on Bosvelt? The Dutch are swimming in decent wingers; why not make a like-for-like substitution and keep the system which was working perfectly well? *

[Coder]

Italy has got their conspiracy theories flying all over now... they've decided that Sweden and Denmark are planning to play 2-2 to eliminate Italy and that we're all nasty crooks. Even Gazetta dello Sport, a usually very serious newspaper, is now into this conspiracy theory.. Everyone but Italy is now responsible for their poor start to the Euro 2004. One reporter wrote in a column that Totti shouldn't have apologized for the spitting, he should have kicked the Danish player instead. The excuse about the shoes being too warm and that Totti was provoked are going from being laughed at to being "the truth"...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Coder

Italy has got their conspiracy theories flying all over now... they've decided that Sweden and Denmark are planning to play 2-2 to eliminate Italy and that we're all nasty crooks. Even Gazetta dello Sport, a usually very serious newspaper, is now into this conspiracy theory.. Everyone but Italy is now responsible for their poor start to the Euro 2004. One reporter wrote in a column that Totti shouldn't have apologized for the spitting, he should have kicked the Danish player instead. The excuse about the shoes being too warm and that Totti was provoked are going from being laughed at to being "the truth"...

If Italy had shown the play Oranje and the Czechs did, or had had the same referee, they'd have a point.
The Swedish and Danes better play 3-3 than 2-2 then, to avoid all conspiracy theories. For instance with a last second penalty kick rewarded and scored, though a last second missed penalty from Denmark would be even more fun.

Originally Posted by Katon

If Arjen Robben can play like that in his first real match back from a major injury, he is more than welcome to the Bridge. On the other hand, while taking him off was a perfectly reasonable idea, why put on Bosvelt? The Dutch are swimming in decent wingers; why not make a like-for-like substitution and keep the system which was working perfectly well? *

True, winger for winger made more sense, even after hearing the 'Advocaat of the devil' do his word. 'Somebody' decided to pull an attacker for a defender. Not what I would do against this Czech team and especially not Bosvelt to mark Nedved. Bringing a marker for Nedved did make sense, I think. After Seedorf and Heitinga got their yellow cards, Nedved had all the space on the left wing to cross inside to shine and fire at will...

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Katon

Don't forget Switzerland-Croatia, one of the worst matches in European Championship history. Other than that, I have to agree.

I didn't mention that one because I didn't see it. I actually got lucky as my cable company "was having problems" last Sunday and I didn't get the broadcast. I supposed to be getting a credit on my bill for not getting the game. Needless to say, I was extremely worried about not seeing the later game (England-France), but they seemed to figure things out by the later game so I got to see it.

[SirFozzie]

Here's the list from Soccernet:

Group A
Greece: Will be guaranteed a place in the last eight should they draw with Russia. Greece can still go through with a defeat, should Portugal beat Spain. However, the runners-up spot would go down to goal difference.

Spain: Only need a point to progress, and can top the group should they win and Greece fail to. That also applies should both games finish level, with Spain involved in a higher scoring match.

Should both Spain and Greece win, Spain can finish top if they win by a greater margin or achieve victory by the same margin in a higher scoring game.

Should both Spain and Greece lose, Spain can still qualify if they lose by a lesser margin or lose by the same margin in a higher scoring game.

Greece are currently ahead of Spain on goals scored.

Portugal: Can only qualify if they beat Spain in the Iberian derby, and they can still win the group should Greece only draw with Russia.

Russia: Eliminated.
Group B

France: Only need a draw with Switzerland to go through. Victory would guarantee top place in the group. Defeat would see Switzerland move above them in the table, and France would be eliminated if either Croatia or England were also to win.

England: A point will guarantee the runners-up spot in the group. They can top the group with victory over Croatia, should France fail to beat Switzerland. They can also top the group with a draw if France were to lose. Defeat would mean elimination.

Croatia: Have to beat England to qualify. They can top the group should France fail to win and Croatia win by a scoreline of 2-0 or greater.

Switzerland: Must beat France to have any chance of making the last eight. They will go through should either Croatia or England win, but if that game finishes level, then Switzerland would have to beat France by three goals to progress.
Group C
Sweden: Only need a draw with Denmark to qualify as group winners. Defeat would still see them qualify if Italy failed to beat Bulgaria.

Denmark: Will definitely go through should they win or draw 2-2, or higher, with Sweden. Defeat would still see them qualify if Italy failed to beat Bulgaria. See 'Italy' for other draw permutations.

Italy: Must beat Bulgaria to stand any chance of making the knockout stages.

An win, coupled with a victory for either Denmark or Sweden, will send them through.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 0-0, then Italy will go through ahead of the Danes as they scored a goal against Sweden.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 1-1, then Italy will have to win by at least two goals to put themselves in contention. Should they win by two goals, any other scoreline than 2-0, they will go through.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 1-1, and Italy win 2-0, it will go to the next factor. That is points gained in the qualifing competitions for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2004. Both gained 37 points. But Italy have a goal difference of +25 to Denmark's +22, so Italy would go through.

If Sweden and Denmark draw 2-2, Italy are out regardless of their performance against Bulgaria.

Italy can only top the group if Denmark and Sweden draw 0-0, and Italy beat Bulgaria by 7-1 or a equivalent higher score, or by winning by seven goals, due to points gained in the qualifing competitions for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2004.

Bulgaria: Eliminated.
Group D

Czech Republic: Qualified as group winners.

Germany: Victory will guarantee runners-up spot. They could go through by drawing with the Czech Republic, should Holland and Latvia also draw.

Netherlands: A win for Holland will only be any good should Germany fail to beat group winners the Czech Republic. A draw could put them into contention.

Should Germany lose and Holland draw, Holland will go through as they will have a '0' goal difference.

Latvia: A win for Latvia will only be any good should Germany fail to beat group winners the Czech Republic. They can only go through by beating Holland, as a draw would rule them out due to Holland's 1-1 draw with Germany, coupled with Latvia's goalless draw.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Here's the list from Soccernet:

yadda-yadda

I still think my own scenario posts are better, though I am not objective enough to comapre the two...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Here's the list from Soccernet:
Netherlands: A win for Holland will only be any good should Germany fail to beat group winners the Czech Republic. A draw could put them into contention.

Should Germany lose and Holland draw, Holland will go through as they will have a '0' goal difference.

Sorry, Soccernet, this is not true.

A draw is only good if it is 1-1 or higher.
At 0-0, "we" need the Germans to lose by 2, by 0-1 or by 1-2.

[SirFozzie]

My picks for the day:

Russia 0 - 0 Greece: Russia's playing for pride.. but Greece is playing for a place in the final eight, and will not attack unless Russia goes ahead. Greece gladly accepts the draw and will take the point that gets them through.

Portugal 1-1 Spain: Portugal's gotta go balls to the wall here, and it will be a desperate crowd rooting them on. But even with the homefield advantage, I don't see them beating the Spanish. The Spanish will be keeping half an ear to the Greece-Russia game.

Spain wins the group, Greece 2nd, with Portugal being eliminated at the first hurdle (and won't there be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth) and Russia glad to just have the single point.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Here's the list from Soccernet:

If Sweden and Denmark draw 1-1, and Italy win 2-0, it will go to the next factor. That is points gained in the qualifing competitions for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2004. Both gained 37 points. But Italy have a goal difference of +25 to Denmark's +22, so Italy would go through.

Sorry SirFozzie, your source has to do a little bit more research.
This is bullshit.
Italy had 37 points in 16 games, Denmark 37 in 18 games.
The points per game average is used rather then the total points figure.

[SirFozzie]

*nods* Just was posting what I saw

[SirFozzie]

Interesting. 2nd minute goal by Russia!

That puts the fox into the henhouse, doesn't it?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

*nods* Just was posting what I saw

I figured.
I bet you're as interested in all the scenario's as I am.

[SirFozzie]

yeah.. it's kind of interesting.. especially when you're really scoreboard watching the other game. Right now, I bet half of the Greece subs are listening to the Spain-Portugal audio.

[SirFozzie]

2-0 To Russia! Bulykin!

However, Portugal still needs to beat Spain to go through.

[SirFozzie]

Spain gets a bit of worry, as Greece cut the lead in half right before halftime. Spain likely to bunker down even more. Portugal's had a lot of good play so far.