Tim Tebow ..

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by korme

Merrill Hoge really likes Tim Tebow

cool tim tebow gets an endorsement from mr. walking head trauma himself gg

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

cool tim tebow gets an endorsement from mr. walking head trauma himself gg

That was sarcasm I believe.

Mr. Walking Head Trauma could even see how bad Tebow was and spent the morning on Mike and Mike ripping him.

[JonInMiddleGA]

As much along the lines of how incomplete the NFL QB rating can be as anything else,

Orton 75.7
Tebow 75.1

Orton better completion %, Tebow better TD/INT ratio

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't worry, they'll be crying when they lose to a good team like they did against the Niners.

Comments like this are evidence that the Lions have arrived for at least this season.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As much along the lines of how incomplete the NFL QB rating can be as anything else,

Orton 75.7
Tebow 75.1

Orton better completion %, Tebow better TD/INT ratio

What I don't get is why people are comparing Tebow to Orton. That is like comparing poop to shit.

[jbergey22]

They just need to quit trying to make him what hes not and find him a role on the team. He's not a starting NFL quarterback and no team with him as a starting QB will sniff the playoffs. However he could work his magic in some of them wildcat formations and maybe 1 series a game set aside to a Tebow package of plays.

The optimistic side says he will improve but the same things that were said about him draftday seem to be very accurate 1.5 years later. He isnt inaccurate, he has a very slow release, and his ability to read a defense is very questionable.

Certain people on the NFL network are calling him the worst QB in the league. Quite the accomplishment when you have Tavares Jackson, Matt Moore, and Beck currently starting.

I sort of feel bad for him. He can be a useful NFL player if he is used right but they are just going to crush his confidence and turn the fans against him.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Atocep

That was sarcasm I believe.

Mr. Walking Head Trauma could even see how bad Tebow was and spent the morning on Mike and Mike ripping him.

my bad

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Subby

The Big Lead has a good take on Tebow. He's five games in to his career and he doesn't have a top twenty RB, WR or OL on his team. Calm down.

While he's older, you could also say the same about John Beck (four starts with MIA, two with WAS). As a Skins fan, how do you feel about Beck going forward?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Subby

The Big Lead has a good take on Tebow. He's five games in to his career and he doesn't have a top twenty RB, WR or OL on his team. Calm down.

It doesn't take a great team around you to make the proper reads and hit open receivers. Those things are on him and are things he should be doing in his 2nd year as a pro.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Don't worry, they'll be crying when they lose to a good team like they did against the Niners.

They already lost to a good team...

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just wondering ... did the unnamed Lions defender make similar comments when they got an even worse performance against them by Cassell earlier this year? Or is this just some jackass trying to be trendy?

You'd think that the Lions would be an awfully good opportunity for a feelgood story, instead, they seem to be determined to be as unlikable as possible.

I'm also reminded here of one of the rules of pro wrestling promos: never bury your opponent so badly that you don't leave yourself room to take any credit.

The Lions are giving me a very Bad Boys type of vibe where they succeed and piss people off with their play style. The difference is that the Lions are much more verbal about it as well. It's a team built on aggression and big plays. If you can contain them, you'll win. If you can't, they will absolutely beat you into the ground.

[korme]

Why can't the Broncos just Brad Smith his career and we can all move on?

[jbergey22]

Its probably a bad sign for the Lions if they are acting like they do when their wins are against. Very little grip on reality.

Tampa
KC
Minny
Dall
Den
Chicago

Lets see them beat a good team before they act like they are a NFL elite team.

Suh is a stud but he should wait awhile before he thinks he is a second coming of Ray Lewis and can intimidate every team he plays using that style.

I dont think Id want my up and coming young team pissing off the rest of the NFL until they can back it up.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Its probably a bad sign for the Lions if they are acting like they do when their wins are against. Very little grip on reality.

Tampa
KC
Minny
Dall
Den
Chicago

Lets see them beat a good team before they act like they are a NFL elite team.

Suh is a stud but he should wait awhile before he thinks he is a second coming of Ray Lewis and can intimidate every team he plays using that style.

I dont think Id want my up and coming young team pissing off the rest of the NFL until they can back it up.

Lions are probably a 9-7 team but let's not forget they are 4-0 on the road which in the NFL is incredible.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Lions are probably a 9-7 team but let's not forget they are 4-0 on the road which in the NFL is incredible.

Yeah I give them credit they are going to be tough. My point was simply that I wouldnt want my young team acting like they have accomplished something quite yet. They need to continue to work hard and improve so they can reach higher goals other than beating a few average/below average teams.

I think it was very unprofessional on what the "unnamed defensive player" said about Tebow. The Lions are only a few years removed from a winless season so youd think theyd respect a team having a tough year a bit more than they do.

[thesloppy]

I dunno that the Lions have really done all that much (remarkable) talking or acting....a lot of their 'dirty' play seems just as manufactured and forced upon them as Tebow's anointment.

An unnamed Lion player saying Tebow isn't very good is hardly all that inflammatory is it? Most of the talking heads were saying the same thing immediately after the game, so I don't know how it can be deemed all the revolutionary or disrespectful. Especially since it's coming from an 'unnamed player', as reported by a blogger. I don't imagine it would be too hard to overhear a comment of greater insult, from an unnamed player in the winning locker room after every NFL game.

I certainly don't think these young Lions or their coaches can be labeled anything close to gracious, but I think the dirty/evil label is being pasted on them a bit hastily, and enthusiastically. Most of what they've done this season seems minor/common, and only appears remarkable because the media repeatedly choose to put them under the microscope, and single out any shred of evidence that could be interpreted as 'dirty play'.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

An unnamed Lion player saying Tebow isn't very good is hardly all that inflammatory is it?

Well he was a bit harsher than just saying he wasnt very good and it probably wouldnt bother me if it came from the Patriots or Steelers. Its just that it is coming from the Lions. The Lions have been awful for so long so they cant just win a few games and act like they have any right to tell someone they suck. They just seem to think suddenly they are in the NFL elite.

One step at a time Lions.

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Lions are probably a 9-7 team but let's not forget they are 4-0 on the road which in the NFL is incredible.

Again, those wins are against KC, Minn, Denver, and TB. Only the TB wins carries much weight.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Well he was a bit harsher than just saying he wasnt very good and it probably wouldnt bother me if it came from the Patriots or Steelers. Its just that it is coming from the Lions. The Lions have been awful for so long so they cant just win a few games and act like they have any right to tell someone they suck. They just seem to think suddenly they are in the NFL elite.

It was harsher...but not that much, considering it was quoted from an unnamed player, out of context....this wasn't (necessarily) someone bragging to a reporter. I assume that it was essentially something overheard in the locker room, said between teammates, and in that context it was practically tame.

Also, the next paragraph in that very blog reads:

It would be one thing if this particular defender could be written off as an outlier, but during the time I spent in the Lions’ locker room after the game – and, later, on the phone with various coaches, front-office executives and players around the league – similarly harsh assessments were uttered about the second-year quarterback making his second start of the 2011 season.

So basically, he could've attributed a similarly harsh assessment to anybody, but an 'unnamed Lions player' will do. Again, I certainly won't accuse the Lions of being classy, but I'm guessing "joke" and "boring" were actually some of the nicer words used to describe Tebow, after Sunday's game.

[jbergey22]

Fair enough.

I just want to like the Lions badly as their fans deserve it but I wish the players would show a bit more class and not act like they have a given right to be good all of a sudden. Calvin Johnson and Suh are two of the best young players in the league so the franchise is in good shape finally. Dont become public enemy #1.

EDIT
I failed to mention Millen is just a bad memory at this point which is most important to the Lions finally being in a good shape.

[Bigsmooth]

If you watched that full game yesterday it's glaringly obvious that he doesn't have the skills to play QB in the NFL. Alarmingly slow delivery and lack of anticipation is plain to see. He was just horrible. Sure his weapons are scarce but this is much deeper then that. Obviously I'm no expert but I've been watching football for 25 years now and his performance as a passer was laughable. Lucky for the Broncos front office they are in a win-win situation. If they keep playing him the fans will be happy and they will lose games. They have as good a shot at Luck as anybody.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Fair enough.

I just want to like the Lions badly as their fans deserve it but I wish the players would show a bit more class and not act like they have a given right to be good all of a sudden.

It's ok that you don't like the Lions. I, and most other Lions fans have no problem with it. They don't need other people to love them or to give them validation. They talk shit, beat on opponents, have a bad attitude, and don't give a flying fuck whether you non-Lions fans like it or not. I think it's great. Maybe it's the Pistons Bad Boy years, and all of the Red Wing hate that made me love my teams being the villains.

I hope they stay as classless and brutal as possible. Lions fans are the only fans opinions that matter when it comes to this team.

[jbergey22]

They have quite a ways to go before they can be classified as villians Im afraid. Right now they are the Cubs of the NFL that seems to not be handeling their limited success all that well.

When they get to the playoffs they can be villains and it might be cool. Being a constant loser and acting like a villain is a joke.

[jeff061]

I like the lions roughly a million times more than the fucking Jets. A little swagger in detroit is healthy.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I like the lions roughly a million times more than the fucking Jets. A little swagger in detroit is healthy.

Of course you are a Pats fan But Id still agree.

[SteveMax58]

I don't get the knee jerk responses to Tebow at all. He's never been a superstar talent, he's just had a great set of physical tools & work ethic to suggest he could have a shot at being a legitimate NFL QB. Based on the limited evidence we've seen so far, I'm not sure why that would change because of 1 game in his first handful of starts.

I could point to just about every game Eli played in his rookie season & much of what he did in his 2nd season. Hell...he still does things that make me cringe. Like him or not, and whether you think he's an elite QB or not, Eli is a legitimate starting NFL QB without question.

How about Steve Young? Did anybody see the Bucs years for him? Yeah, he wasn't going to amount to much either.

I'm not saying Tebow will be Steve Young, or even Eli Manning, but to judge the guy that harshly based on a bad start given his inexperience so far is just as foolish as thinking he'll be in the Pro Bowl.

These criticisms are foolish:

Slow Release: I can teach my 7-yr old son how to quicken his release with some simple instructions on where to hold the ball when he drops back. This is mechanics & can take time but lets not act like he's too old to learn this and doomed to have a slow release. He never needed a faster release in College or prior and is adjusting to NFL speed. His release may also be slowed by his indecision which will lessen as he is more sure of where he is throwing the ball.

Inaccuracy: He doesn't get "it"...yet. And "it" means where the defenders are lurking, where EVERY receiver should be on EVERY route to optimize the play in relation to the defense, and general pocket awareness timing so he knows when to start sliding out of the pocket or when to just throw it away. Maybe he never does get it but inaccuracy isn't completely a "talent" that you either have or not. Lots of things make a QB look more or less accurate and that isn't even to start talking about the surrounding players.

[Ksyrup]

He has already scrapped trying to quicken his release. He started during draft prep and beyond, and now he's back to his regular motion.

His accuracy wasn't that great in college, either. Danny Wuerffel's college accuracy suddenly disappeared in the NFL, too.

[jbergey22]

Yeah, if the quick release was easy to fix you would think it would have been fixed 5 years ago. In fact his release is probably the biggest part of the problem. These NFL corners and safetys get a quicker break on his passes which doesnt leave him any room for error.

[Butter]

It's not like this was his first start. Arguably, for 3 1/2 quarters he looked WORSE against the Chargers than he did this week.

Top 10 picks get years to turn it around. Tebow is not that. He needs to improve. Greatly. And soon. This is likely to be the last shot he gets to be a real NFL starter. If you look this bad for very long, you will be written off. Just because Tebow is supposedly this really earnest, wonderful guy doesn't mean that if he doesn't produce NOW he won't be benched.

Part of me thinks that John Fox is playing him to show the fans who have been dying to see him "See? Look how bad he sucks. Now can you let us get back to trying to win games instead of auditioning this guy?"

[Ksyrup]

GI-Bow

[Peregrine]

Tebowing

[Ksyrup]

Too many people are getting the Tebowing thing wrong. It's not the Thinker pose, kneeling. His wrist is not curled back toward his head, it's off to the side. If you're going to be stupid enough to photograph yourself Tebowing, at least get it right.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Yeah, if the quick release was easy to fix you would think it would have been fixed 5 years ago. In fact his release is probably the biggest part of the problem. These NFL corners and safetys get a quicker break on his passes which doesnt leave him any room for error.

I don't think he would have fixed it in College. Why? He had a national championship caliber o-line in College...the guy didn't need to have a faster release. I agree that in a sense, that great o-line may have slowed his progress for the NFL, but as a QB, he's having a ton of things put on him every week. And in college...making his release quicker clearly wasn't the priority with the coaching staff.

I'd also question how much its being harped on right now and for that matter, how genuine the develop of the guy is within the Denver organization. Is he having too much info to process put on him? Look at any young QB and you'll see that an OC doesn't run the full offense that they would like to run with them. I'm sure his current OC is doing the same but its a fine line between forcing an offense on a young QB or giving him just enough to go along with the other things he needs to learn & improve on.

This is his current QB coach. IDK, he may be more qualified than I am, but his resume doesn't scream "QB genius" to me.

Adam Gase
Quarterbacks; born March 29, 1978, Ypsilanti, Mich. Attended Michigan State. No college or pro playing experience. College coach: Louisiana State 2000-02. Pro coach: Detroit Lions 2003-08. Joined Broncos in 2009.




At the end of the day, it seems obvious to me that Denver has other plans than grooming Tebow along. And that's a perfectly fine conclusion...the guy is a project at best.

But I also think the bar has been set artificially high in the media for young/rookie QBs to come in and perform great immediately when the reality is...the young QBs you've seen perform well in the past 5-10 years are performing well inside of offenses designed by smart coaches to limit their exposure to things they aren't ready for. Big Ben, Eli (2nd season), Ryan, & Flacco were just not screwing up within limited offenses that could run the ball even if you knew it was coming & limited in their throws. And they were each considered NFL-ready (or would be) unlike Tebow. Rivers, Rodgers, and the like sat on the bench for a few seasons as well...so we don't know how bad they would have looked in their rookie/2nd season.

[Butter]

Rodgers looked terrible in his first couple of outings. I remember some people talking about how screwed the Packers were when Favre retired.

But there's terrible... and then there's TERRIBLE.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Rodgers looked terrible in his first couple of outings. I remember some people talking about how screwed the Packers were when Favre retired.

But there's terrible... and then there's TERRIBLE.

He wasnt that terrible. I remember his first start was against the Vikings. He had a 115.5 and a 117 rating his first two starts. Probably packer fans sticking up their hero or something.

Aaron Rodgers - Green Bay Packers - Game Log - NFL - Yahoo! Sports

[Butter]

I was referring to the non-starts... the games in '05 and '06 from that log.

[Ksyrup]

I think what most people are missing about Tebow when comparing him to Rodgers or Eli or other young QBs who struggled before putting it together is that they started with a baseline of physical tools and mechanics that projected to NFL QB. Obviously, not every QB who has the size or arm makes it. And some undersized guys with less than ideal arm strength have become very good QBs.

But from where Tebow is starting as far as physical tools, arm strength, mechanics, etc., he is so far behind the 8 ball, he makes Doug Flutie look like Peyton Manning. His only real chance at being even an average starting QB is going all-in with him and basically running a slightly modified college offense for him. The NFL is not the place to look for that kind of outside the box thinking/innovation. Even when it happens, it happens slowly. But Denver hired John Fox as coach with Tebow on the roster, so that suggests to me that he never had a shot, and he's only getting a shot now to show that he can't play. And next year, we'll be looking at Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in the draft.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I was referring to the non-starts... the games in '05 and '06 from that log.

Ok, I was kind of figuring that when I re-read your post.

Not sure if that was a very fair assessment of him though. They lost 1 of the games 48-3 and another 35-0. By the time he got in the game the D-line had no worries other than trying to get sacks.

I do remember certain Packer fans not being happy with him around the midway point of his first year as a starting qb. From looking at his gamelogs I cant really figure out why.

[JediKooter]

I'm sure the Raiders would love to pick Teb...oh wait, Al is dead...never mind.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I'm sure the Raiders would love to pick Teb...oh wait, Al is dead...never mind.

Despite death, he was able to make that carson palmer trade.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by molson

Despite death, he was able to make that carson palmer trade.

Good point. I do find the timing of his death and Palmer trade a bit suspicious. Where's the death certificate?

[larrymcg421]

Going back and searching through the archives, there was tons of shit thrown at Rodgers, not just after his first few starts, but even after his first full season. The blame was laid at his feet for a 6-10 season eventhough he matched Favre's numbers from the year before and it was the defense that dropped from 6th to 21st. But here is my favorite post:

Which is pretty much what I'd say about those who think Rodgers will ever be a winning QB in the NFL. I'd take Favre with arthritis, a migraine, and a sharp stick protruding from his right eye over Rogers in a heartbeat.

[jbergey22]

I've had Sunday Ticket since 1998. I watch the NFL every minute that it is on.

You say anyone with half a brain can see how talented Romo is, but in the same post ask exactly what I see in Cutler that makes him head and shoulders above Rodgers? It is not me who has trouble evaluating QB talent.

Case in point: Jay Cutler. Professional talent evaluators put his market value at two 1sts, a 3rd and a starting QB. Noone would give a first for Aaron Rodgers right now. Yet you think he's more talented than Cutler.

I always enjoyed this one that came up during the Jay Cutler debates.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But from where Tebow is starting as far as physical tools, arm strength, mechanics, etc., he is so far behind the 8 ball, he makes Doug Flutie look like Peyton Manning. His only real chance at being even an average starting QB is going all-in with him and basically running a slightly modified college offense for him. The NFL is not the place to look for that kind of outside the box thinking/innovation. Even when it happens, it happens slowly. But Denver hired John Fox as coach with Tebow on the roster, so that suggests to me that he never had a shot, and he's only getting a shot now to show that he can't play. And next year, we'll be looking at Matt Barkley or Landry Jones in the draft.

I don't think I agree that a team needs to do anything special for the guy as they would do with any young QB that you want to groom along. I do think he's not the prototypical young QB but not because of what he can't do...because of what he CAN do. I think he would have been an interesting Wildcat QB for Miami but certainly not NFL-ready coming out of college. And of course, not 1st rd pick worthy for a project QB.

I think he just needs more time...hell, just give him the 3 years Aaron Rodgers had or the 2 years Rivers had riding the pine before we saw them in any significant action. Tebow likely needs 3 years to learn with a consistent offense so shuffling coaches & coordinators & playbooks around for a project QB is not likely to spell success.

I agree with the comment I saw earlier that said he should go to a team with an established starter already. Let the guy sit behind a Big Ben, Eli, Rodgers, Ryan, Rivers, Brady, Peyton, etc. and just learn. Have a contingency playbook that tailored to him and let him focus on fundamental mechanics, playbook memorization, get some reps with the 1st team offense on occasion(which an established QB doesn't always need).

Maybe a really interesting place for him would be Philly. Mike Vick was a marginal QB at best in Atlanta...and IMHO had a very similar problem in Atlanta...nobody to teach him how to be a real NFL QB. I think right now, if I'm Andy Reid, I'm looking to pick up Tebow in the offseason and have Vick v2 waiting in the wings in 3 years (or on the occasional spot start due to injury).

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

They have quite a ways to go before they can be classified as villians Im afraid. Right now they are the Cubs of the NFL that seems to not be handeling their limited success all that well.

When they get to the playoffs they can be villains and it might be cool. Being a constant loser and acting like a villain is a joke.

Dude wtf are you even talking about? Stop getting your panties in a bunch because the Lions are winning and talking a little shit. They haven't said anything worse than anyone else in the media or on other teams. The media, once again, has taken something and made it way overblown. The Lions don't do or say anything that 29 other NFL teams don't do as well.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I think right now, if I'm Andy Reid, I'm looking to pick up Tebow in the offseason and have Vick v2 waiting in the wings in 3 years (or on the occasional spot start due to injury).

Are you seriously comparing Tebow to Vick? lol

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

29 other NFL teams don't do as well.

I guess we aren't counting the Colts and Dolphins anymore ... I agree with that.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Going back and searching through the archives, there was tons of shit thrown at Rodgers, not just after his first few starts, but even after his first full season. The blame was laid at his feet for a 6-10 season eventhough he matched Favre's numbers from the year before and it was the defense that dropped from 6th to 21st. But here is my favorite post:

I may or may not have compared Brohm to Aaron Rodgers. I think that the majority of the shit was because of certain posters who exercised high amounts of hyperbole when talking about certain players. This probably resulted in an irrational backlash.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I guess we aren't counting the Colts and Dolphins anymore ... I agree with that.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Are you seriously comparing Tebow to Vick? lol

It should go without saying, but Tebow doesn't have the arm strength, height, or agility of a Michael Vick to start with. Even if Vick is/was an inaccurate or inconstent passer, his other tools helped to make up for it. Tebow has none of that, as a starting point. That's what I've been saying. Equating Tebow to a maligned QB who has gotten better with time/reps misses the point, because it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to begin with.