Teens Acquitted of Murdering Illegal

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The people who do these jobs, getting an education and acquiring in demand skills is not an easy option, and for some, isn't available at all. Try to tell the hard working legal emigre from Mexico that to save his job washing dishes he's about to lose to an illegal immigrant, he's going to have to stop working his second job--which he can't afford to lose so he can feed his family--so he can go to school--which he can't afford--to get the education you say is there and available for him.

This is an irrelevant point to the discussion, and I am not sure why you're bringing it up, except perhaps to give yourself straw man fuel, when the real merits of your argument are lacking. Remember, the original point is that illegal immigration is a problem and represents a serious burden for some states. Current residents improving their education or their job skills, while fine and dandy, has absolutely nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, which would still exist either way. So stop arguing something pointless and get back on the subject.

We don't have a true capitalistic society, but a general one. It's capitalism within the confines of the laws the government places on it, which includes labor laws. These laws are there to protect workers, and, yes, citizens. Legal ones who pay taxes. These laws also protect legal immigrants, BTW. Within the confines of that system, though, we do indeed have capitalism as our basic system of economics, and in that system it is survival of the fittest. If businesses can't get by without breaking the rules, they should not survive. And if you think other companies won't come in to replace them just fine, you're fooling yourself.

You said that those who can't compete should go out of business. I said those who can't qualify for a job should not have one. That is capitalism to me and if you want to use that in your argument you should use it both ways.

In any event, I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. I have no doubt it costs a lot of money and causes some issues. But I do think some of those issues get blown out of proportion and the other side is not presented fairly.

First, on your argument that businesses that need to hire illegals to stay around shouldn't be in business. The problem is that it's not an equal playing ground. If I own a grape farm and hire legal workers and follow all the rules, but you hire illegals on your grape farm, there is no way I can compete with you. So you'd have to find some way to universally stop the problem to avoid unfair competition. I just don't know how that's possible at the moment.

The other argument is that we've all grown accustomed to getting things rather cheap. I like being able to pick up an orange at the grocery store for 49 cents. Eliminating illegals means higher prices on a lot of things we purchase in our daily lives. When labor costs go up, it gets passed on to the consumer. So it's nice to be able to say that the unskilled, uneducated legal worker has a job now, but you probably aren't going to be happy seeing your monthly expenses go up 5% or so.

I just don't think illegal immigration is a black and white issue. It certainly needs some solutions and I'm all for protecting our borders. But I also know there are beneficial aspects to it that every American enjoys.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The other argument is that we've all grown accustomed to getting things rather cheap. I like being able to pick up an orange at the grocery store for 49 cents.

We could always import more of our food. Of course I'm extremely biased, but one of the best bumper stickers I've ever seen said "If you love imported oil, you'll love imported food."

Not to mention countries like China that can't even get dog food right.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

See you're wrong in that you're arguing that the situation fits a murder charge. You're saying they should be convicted of murder as charged, when the articles I just read through seem more like a teen brawl that got out of hand. Murder requires intent to kill (in most cases) and if the DA was smarter than the average turnip he would have gone for multiple charges of manslaughter and probably gotten his convictions. But Manslaughter doesn't make big headlines so based on what I've read it looks like the prosecutor's office fucked themselves.

Third degree murder is manslaughter. That is what they were charged with.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

Speaking only from my own point of view, we are essentially competing with factories, as my farm is essentially a milk factory.

Normal factories can pick and choose when it can shut down or produce at a lower capacity. My factory is dealing with living and breathing animals that the switch can't simply be turned off. We are operating 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

So given the choice between a similar paying factory job that is a day job with weekends off, and a farming job that entails working plenty of nights and weekends, which would be more attractive? Oh and in most factory jobs, getting covered with manure isn't part of the normal day.

Temporary workers fit my operation very well. For the most part, they are here to work and that's about it. Their families remain in their native country so they don't desire time off on weekends to spend with their families or normal working hours.

I also believe I am getting a higher quality worker. I'd essentially be scraping the bottom of the barrel by hiring American workers. The unemployable in many cases. The economy hasn't hit this area as hard as SoCal. The Nicaraguans I hire are from families that I've worked closely with for the past three or four years. They take turns coming to the United States and bring a brother or cousin here a month or two before they leave in order to train them before their departure. With Americans, it's usually two weeks notice and there you're stuck looking for somebody. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when you have an opportunity to have a seamless transition, why not take it?

The language barrier is not a problem in my case either, as I am semi-fluent in Spanish and also have two bilingual people on staff (both Mexican). I could go on and on about advantages to hiring the people that I hire and it has nothing to do with paying a lower wage.



In terms of dairy farming, the labor practices are fairly similar between California and Wisconsin. Now when you talk about produce farming, that is probably where the differences come in.

lungs, while I appreciate your experience and perspective on this issue and I find your specific case interesting, the fact of the matter is that it is an anecdotal point of view that may or may not applicable in more general terms.

If you're hiring legal employees at your wage level and getting by, that is fine. If that well dried up, you would have to raise your wages. Raise your wages and the workers will show at some point. It's simple economics.

Now, you may not be able to run your business that way, depending on your bottom line, but that's the way it goes. It's a cutthroat business. I certainly wish you every success and hope all continues to go well, but I'm not going to say illegal immigration is right just because someone I converse with on the Internet might have issues if his supply of temporary workers is cut severely short by improvements in immigration law (and not saying you're seeking sympathy).

I can't speak to the differences between the dairy and produce farming industries, but I think you have definitely hit on one key difference regardless, and that's that you likely got a higher quality of immigrant in Wisconsin, where, as you note, it takes much more will intelligence and ability to make it that far away from home. Your available workforce is correspondingly less. I would imagine the available workforce for dairy farming in California, as with produce, is much larger than in Wisconsin (with a hand in hand drop in quality of said worker).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Wow Jon, just fucking wow. With as little as I think of you ever, you mange to somehow prove what an utter and complete waste of human flesh you really are time and time again.

It's well established what a waste of oxygen you are, so bat shit crazy that you make even me look entirely sane. It's a sincere pity that we didn't somehow end up as next door neighbors at some point over the years just so one of us could put the other out of their misery. Who knows, maybe fate will eventually smile on us and provide that opportunity. Failing that, feel free to piss on my grave if you happen to outlive me, Lord only knows I'd do the same to yours with delight.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So if I shoot a guy and he dies a day or so later at the hospital, it's not murder?

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

My Crim's a little bit rusty, but if the guy would have lived but for doctor's error, then that might be a superceding cause for the death (although both could be charged).

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

You really are a hoot. That statement was not speculating what happened to the person, merely illustrating how intervening/superceding causes (NOT SAYING IT HAPPENED IN THIS CASE!!!11!!) can break the intent chain from the crime to the harm.

If you're going to try and twist my words around, at least try to be "somewhat" accurate.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You said that those who can't compete should go out of business. I said those who can't qualify for a job should not have one. That is capitalism to me and if you want to use that in your argument you should use it both ways.

The people you say need to improve their education/skills have all that they need to get jobs. The problem is that their jobs are being given illegally to illegal immigrants. That's not their problem. That's the government's problem. The American system of capitalism has to by necessity work within the framework of its own laws.

In any event, I agree that illegal immigration is a problem. I have no doubt it costs a lot of money and causes some issues. But I do think some of those issues get blown out of proportion and the other side is not presented fairly.

First, on your argument that businesses that need to hire illegals to stay around shouldn't be in business. The problem is that it's not an equal playing ground. If I own a grape farm and hire legal workers and follow all the rules, but you hire illegals on your grape farm, there is no way I can compete with you. So you'd have to find some way to universally stop the problem to avoid unfair competition. I just don't know how that's possible at the moment.

So because it's going to be a hard solution, why try it right? Throw up our hands in disgust, and just let everyone do what they want? That's not the answer either. We need stronger penalties against businesses to stop these, and an enforcement agency willing to go the extra mile to nail them to the wall for breaking immigration laws.

The other argument is that we've all grown accustomed to getting things rather cheap. I like being able to pick up an orange at the grocery store for 49 cents. Eliminating illegals means higher prices on a lot of things we purchase in our daily lives. When labor costs go up, it gets passed on to the consumer. So it's nice to be able to say that the unskilled, uneducated legal worker has a job now, but you probably aren't going to be happy seeing your monthly expenses go up 5% or so.

It doesn't matter what you and I are happy about. If costs up go up, they go up. Eventually, it swings around and wages go up, then the cycle continues on around. This is basic economics. We'll survive. Once again, passing on a solution to avoid a short term penalty is not the answer.

I just don't think illegal immigration is a black and white issue. It certainly needs some solutions and I'm all for protecting our borders. But I also know there are beneficial aspects to it that every American enjoys.

I don't think it's a black and white issue either. I'm much closer to this situation than you, living in CA, and actually working with legal (and probably some illegal) immigrants. These are real people to me, not some story in the papers. But right now, as it stands, the negatives to illegal immigration far outweigh the positives. What's funny is that people in Chicago, for instance, enjoy these benefits, as you say, but they're not really paying the costs, because those costs are generally location-specific to where the illegal immigrants are being employed and reside. So I guess I can see why this isn't a real issue for you. We here in California and along the border with Mexico, we're paying the real costs for the benefits you're receiving.

So enjoy that $0.49 orange. I guess it's on me.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

lungs, while I appreciate your experience and perspective on this issue and I find your specific case interesting, the fact of the matter is that it is an anecdotal point of view that may or may not applicable in more general terms.

If you're hiring legal employees at your wage level and getting by, that is fine. If that well dried up, you would have to raise your wages. Raise your wages and the workers will show at some point. It's simple economics.

Now, you may not be able to run your business that way, depending on your bottom line, but that's the way it goes. It's a cutthroat business. I certainly wish you every success and hope all continues to go well, but I'm not going to say illegal immigration is right just because someone I converse with on the Internet might have issues if his supply of temporary workers is cut severely short by improvements in immigration law (and not saying you're seeking sympathy).

I can't speak to the differences between the dairy and produce farming industries, but I think you have definitely hit on one key difference regardless, and that's that you likely got a higher quality of immigrant in Wisconsin, where, as you note, it takes much more will intelligence and ability to make it that far away from home. Your available workforce is correspondingly less. I would imagine the available workforce for dairy farming in California, as with produce, is much larger than in Wisconsin (with a hand in hand drop in quality of said worker).

Allow me also to point out the other intricacy of the situation.

We can all agree that the government is very lax with immigration status, right? Discrimination in hiring is a bad thing, right?

So when I completely turned my crew over this February, each of them told me they had replacements. So I asked these each of these prospective employees if they have a Green Card and a Social Security Card, and all of them say they indeed have both. When presented the cards to fill out paperwork, the Green Card has the proper hologram and the Social Security card doesn't appear fabricated.

I hire all of them, and they fill out all the proper paperwork, including an I-9 (worker eligibility). No contact has been made by the government to inform me of any discrepancy with social security numbers.

Everything points to these people being legal, but based on my private conversations I have with them, I know they are not. Legally, my ass is covered. Some may say morally that it is not, but I honestly don't care.

This is all pretty much SOP in the dairy industry in Wisconsin and California. Have the proper paperwork, even if it is fake the government doesn't do darn thing about it.

So if they aren't going to do a darn thing about it, why don't they regulate things some with a temporary worker program?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The people you say need to improve their education/skills have all that they need to get jobs. The problem is that their jobs are being given illegally to illegal immigrants. That's not their problem. That's the government's problem. The American system of capitalism has to by necessity work within the framework of its own laws.

No they don't have all that they need. If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job that you are, it's time to look in the mirror. I know that seems harsh but it's reality.

The world is changing. Globalization is taking over. You aren't just competing with people from your neighborhood but with people thorughout the world. Like I've been saying, you don't see brain surgeons whining about illegals taking their jobs. I know it sucks for them and it's a shock to the system, but these people need to put the onus on themselves to make themselves valuable. Get an electrical or plumbing license. Take a computer programming course. Earn a skill of some kind. There are a lot of industries out there that are in high demand.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

So because it's going to be a hard solution, why try it right? Throw up our hands in disgust, and just let everyone do what they want? That's not the answer either. We need stronger penalties against businesses to stop these, and an enforcement agency willing to go the extra mile to nail them to the wall for breaking immigration laws.

I never said that. I'm saying that when something is done, it needs to be universal. You can't put tough penalties against people in Wisconsin like lungs and allow people in Minnesota to get off scott-free.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

It doesn't matter what you and I are happy about. If costs up go up, they go up. Eventually, it swings around and wages go up, then the cycle continues on around. This is basic economics. We'll survive. Once again, passing on a solution to avoid a short term penalty is not the answer.

Or perhaps these companies will just take their businesses overseas resulting in a lot more job losses and a bigger trade deficit.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't think it's a black and white issue either. I'm much closer to this situation than you, living in CA, and actually working with legal (and probably some illegal) immigrants. These are real people to me, not some story in the papers. But right now, as it stands, the negatives to illegal immigration far outweigh the positives. What's funny is that people in Chicago, for instance, enjoy these benefits, as you say, but they're not really paying the costs, because those costs are generally location-specific to where the illegal immigrants are being employed and reside. So I guess I can see why this isn't a real issue for you. We here in California and along the border with Mexico, we're paying the real costs for the benefits you're receiving.

So enjoy that $0.49 orange. I guess it's on me.

It sucks that you guys have to deal with this more than other parts of the country. But we all have pros and cons when it comes to where we live (Chicago has really high sales taxes) and when those cons reach a breaking point, we all have the freedom to move. Maybe it's punishment for the fact you guys are sitting in sunny 70 degree weather when we're stuck 2 feet in snow.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that we should pay a bounty, but I understand the sentiment of not worrying too much about a common criminal. I'm not willing to fight too hard for the rights of people who cross the border illegally.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

Allow me also to point out the other intricacy of the situation.

We can all agree that the government is very lax with immigration status, right? Discrimination in hiring is a bad thing, right?

So when I completely turned my crew over this February, each of them told me they had replacements. So I asked these each of these prospective employees if they have a Green Card and a Social Security Card, and all of them say they indeed have both. When presented the cards to fill out paperwork, the Green Card has the proper hologram and the Social Security card doesn't appear fabricated.

I hire all of them, and they fill out all the proper paperwork, including an I-9 (worker eligibility). No contact has been made by the government to inform me of any discrepancy with social security numbers.

Everything points to these people being legal, but based on my private conversations I have with them, I know they are not. Legally, my ass is covered. Some may say morally that it is not, but I honestly don't care.

This is all pretty much SOP in the dairy industry in Wisconsin and California. Have the proper paperwork, even if it is fake the government doesn't do darn thing about it.

So if they aren't going to do a darn thing about it, why don't they regulate things some with a temporary worker program?

Agree completely.

My stance on immigration is a break from the usual conservative "no one is allowed" mantra.

I believe that the current set of illegal immigrants has been ingrained into our economy and that removing them will bring about a necessarily strong (but short term) negative impact. As I just said to Rainmaker, I do not believe this is enough of a reason to not do anything. I do, however, believe we can take steps to mitigate this issue.

We need to do two things, in congress with each other.

One, a one time chance at amnesty, ending on a specific date. If you're here illegally, come out now. Fill out your paperwork and become a legal immigrant. Businesses get amnesty, too. If it turns out a whole bunch of your workers were illegal, no questions asked, we move on. Get them documented, get them on a proper pay scale. Include other benefits, such as giving such workers (and legal immigrants as well) an easier path to moving their families here if they are still out of the country. Offer training on "life in the US". Credits toward English as a second language courses at JCs, things like that.

If you do not want to become a citizen, you can announce you're legal and apply for a guest worker visa, on the understanding you will pay taxes, and can go to and from your country, but you are not eligible for citizenship until you choose to apply for that status, and that at any point, that status can be removed, and you not allowed entry back into the country.

Two, on the same day the window for amnesty is enclosed, a new and improved INS which actually enforces the law will start going over every employment record on file, and investigating the discrepancies, particularly ones going forward from the amnesty date or past ones for which there is no new obvious explanation but continued employment evidence. Those in violation, the workers are deported and are never again eligible to even come to the United States, much less work here, and the employers responsible are both responsible on a company level in the form of fines and other penalties, and the individual employers are possibly subject to jail time.

Oh, and the Republican in me shows up--the Border Patrol has orders to fire at will (from that day forward).

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I wouldn't go so far as to say that we should pay a bounty, but I understand the sentiment of not worrying too much about a common criminal. I'm not willing to fight too hard for the rights of people who cross the border illegally.

Even if you don't care one iota for the victim in the case, I think people should at least care about having a group of borderline psychopaths roaming the streets.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Two, on the same day the window for amnesty is enclosed, a new and improved INS which actually enforces the law will start going over every employment record on file, and investigating the discrepancies, particularly ones going forward from the amnesty date or past ones for which there is no new obvious explanation but continued employment evidence. Those in violation, the workers are deported and are never again eligible to even come to the United States, much less work here, and the employers responsible are both responsible on a company level in the form of fines and other penalties, and the individual employers are possibly subject to jail time.

That is the problem that lungs brought up though. These guys show up with proper documentation. It can be impossible to tell an illegal from a legal. I understand punishing businesses who willingly take illegals, but how can you punish them when these guys look legit?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No they don't have all that they need. If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job that you are, it's time to look in the mirror. I know that seems harsh but it's reality.

The world is changing. Globalization is taking over. You aren't just competing with people from your neighborhood but with people thorughout the world. Like I've been saying, you don't see brain surgeons whining about illegals taking their jobs. I know it sucks for them and it's a shock to the system, but these people need to put the onus on themselves to make themselves valuable. Get an electrical or plumbing license. Take a computer programming course. Earn a skill of some kind. There are a lot of industries out there that are in high demand.

If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job you are, and he's legal, that is capitalism. Survival of the fittest. If he's illegal, he should not be competing for the same job as you. In fact, he shouldn't be in the country at all.

Why have borders at all then? Why don't we all just have one big, global country? Sorry, the world isn't ready for that.

Fact is, we do have borders, we do have separate countries, and we all have governments with the responsibility to support the lives of the people over whom they rule. You keep bringing up brain surgeons and getting skills and ignoring the fact that all that is irrelevant. If illegals came here with brain surgeon skills, it would be relevant, but they don't. You don't seem to understand it's not about the type of jobs being taken, it's about the fact they're taking jobs away at all. Stop thinking Americans are supposed to be better than illegals. That's ethnocentric. Start thinking that the jobs here in the US should be held by legal workers, American or otherwise, and the rest God can take.

I never said that. I'm saying that when something is done, it needs to be universal. You can't put tough penalties against people in Wisconsin like lungs and allow people in Minnesota to get off scott-free.

Here's your quote:

So you'd have to find some way to universally stop the problem to avoid unfair competition. I just don't know how that's possible at the moment.

You're saying it's not possible. You're also advocating the status quo. Seems to me pretty clear you are indeed saying "if it's going to be a hard solution, why try it".

I am saying, yes, try it. Because the system as is ain't working. I never said anything about not enforcing it universally. Not sure where you get that at all. You're once again bringing in a straw man you can argue down, because the merits of actual stance are lacking.

Or perhaps these companies will just take their businesses overseas resulting in a lot more job losses and a bigger trade deficit.

Welcome to globalization, Rain. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If businesses have the right, as you say, to pay illegals to do these jobs, they also have the right to pay legal citizens of other countries to do those jobs.

So which is it? Illegal immigration is okay and so is outsourcing? Or ban illegal immigration and don't outsource. You can't user globalization as justification in one part of argument and not then apply it elsewhere. That's a double standard.

[larrymcg421]

If we allowed groups of people to kill people for violating laws, it would be a pretty scary place. I mean, pretty much everyone has broken some law. What if someone determined that you deserved to die because you broke a law?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Agree completely.

My stance on immigration is a break from the usual conservative "no one is allowed" mantra.

I believe that the current set of illegal immigrants has been ingrained into our economy and that removing them will bring about a necessarily strong (but short term) negative impact. As I just said to Rainmaker, I do not believe this is enough of a reason to not do anything. I do, however, believe we can take steps to mitigate this issue.

We need to do two things, in congress with each other.

One, a one time chance at amnesty, ending on a specific date. If you're here illegally, come out now. Fill out your paperwork and become a legal immigrant. Businesses get amnesty, too. If it turns out a whole bunch of your workers were illegal, no questions asked, we move on. Get them documented, get them on a proper pay scale. Include other benefits, such as giving such workers (and legal immigrants as well) an easier path to moving their families here if they are still out of the country. Offer training on "life in the US". Credits toward English as a second language courses at JCs, things like that.

If you do not want to become a citizen, you can announce you're legal and apply for a guest worker visa, on the understanding you will pay taxes, and can go to and from your country, but you are not eligible for citizenship until you choose to apply for that status, and that at any point, that status can be removed, and you not allowed entry back into the country.

Two, on the same day the window for amnesty is enclosed, a new and improved INS which actually enforces the law will start going over every employment record on file, and investigating the discrepancies, particularly ones going forward from the amnesty date or past ones for which there is no new obvious explanation but continued employment evidence. Those in violation, the workers are deported and are never again eligible to even come to the United States, much less work here, and the employers responsible are both responsible on a company level in the form of fines and other penalties, and the individual employers are possibly subject to jail time.

Oh, and the Republican in me shows up--the Border Patrol has orders to fire at will (from that day forward).

I don't have a single problem with anything you said. Until the fire at will part

Throw in a method that allows me to sponsor future guest workers. For example, if one of my guys wants to go home, and his brother wants to replace him, I could sponsor his brother to come up here and work.

I don't like being in the gray area, and my workers obviously don't like being in the shadows. It'd be nice if they could fly home for a couple of weeks to see their families without having to worry about raising enough money for a coyote to smuggle them across the border again.

There are benefits for so many to get something sensible done but pressure from the fringes of both sides are stopping anything sensible from getting done.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That is the problem that lungs brought up though. These guys show up with proper documentation. It can be impossible to tell an illegal from a legal. I understand punishing businesses who willingly take illegals, but how can you punish them when these guys look legit?

Two ways. Either every application is vetted by a public agency before that person can be hired, or the onus is put on the owners to do their own vetting, and suffer the consequences if they don't do their due dilligence.

I personally would be for an agency that basically makes the judgment on employment for everyone applying to work, and them issuing paperwork to that effect, and if you don't have the paperwork and approvals, you don't work. And if after that, they still find work, those employers are in big trouble.

And I am talking something more concrete than paper social security cards.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

If we allowed groups of people to kill people for violating laws, it would be a pretty scary place. I mean, pretty much everyone has broken some law. What if someone determined that you deserved to die because you broke a law?

I went a little hyperbolic there. Obviously, they wouldn't really fire at will. But people crossing the border illegally at that point should be treated exactly as they are--criminals. They should get no more consideration from the Border Patrol than I would from a cop pulling me over, and I decide to make a run for it (which can indeed result in me being killed by said cop).

Also, consider this is also a consideration for the protection of our borders. If immigrants can get in, so can terrorists and criminals (the ones who are criminals even before they break our immigration laws, I mean).

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And I am talking something more concrete than paper social security cards.

$150 buys an excellent counterfeit Green Card, complete with a hologram picture of the cardholder.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

I don't have a single problem with anything you said. Until the fire at will part

Throw in a method that allows me to sponsor future guest workers. For example, if one of my guys wants to go home, and his brother wants to replace him, I could sponsor his brother to come up here and work.

I don't like being in the gray area, and my workers obviously don't like being in the shadows. It'd be nice if they could fly home for a couple of weeks to see their families without having to worry about raising enough money for a coyote to smuggle them across the border again.

There are benefits for so many to get something sensible done but pressure from the fringes of both sides are stopping anything sensible from getting done.

Yeah, like I said above to larry, I was overstating quite a bit with that last part. But read what I responded to him, that's the sort of thing I am looking at there.

Everything else, yeah, I'm for that. Sponsoring guest workers, allowing such workers the ability to travel to and from their country to here, as allowed (their own country's laws would come into play, of course).

The lack of enforcement and the dependency on illegal immigration are the two big bugaboos in this situation, IMO, and if we find ways to mitigate or eliminate both, this is a problem that would go away.

I am also for easing the legal immigration rules, and allowing more legal immigrants into the country, so long as they have employment. This country, as the cliche goes, is built on immigration, and I think we tend to lose sight of that at times.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

$150 buys an excellent counterfeit Green Card, complete with a hologram picture of the cardholder.

Exactly. We need to find a better way of doing things. Make things more air tight. Criminals will always find a way, and there's not much we can do about that. But we can still make it harder for them, all the same, and increase the punishments enough so that violating them is not worth the risk for most.

I don't think business owners under this circumstance, BTW, should automatically be penalized, but I do think they should be heavily investigated if a worker comes up illegal, just to be certain that due dilligence was followed by the owner in question.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

I'm with you on this to a point. I am, however, emphathic to some illegal immigrants' plights and what they were trying to escape from. I don't think you can paint all illegal immigrants with the same broad brush; now, if they've been in this country for more than a few months and haven't even attempted to try to get on the path to citizenship, then yeah go ahead and fuck em.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Colombus Day would be more bullshit. After all, it's spelled Columbus. Accept no imitations. As for the sins of the "white man", you realize that the New World wasn't some sort of sunny-skied utopia, right?

This is one of my favorite pieces of Jacques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence":

I'm not saying that it was a utopia, Cameron. All I'm saying is that Euro people weren't here first. At one point, your ancestors were the Mexicans that are coming here now. Don't tell me they all had their paperwork in order. That is insane if someone believes that.

JimGA, what would closed borders do to make this country better that would outweigh the economic benefit of having open borders?


Lathum, I believe that the fact that this isn't that time frame makes it all the more sad. You can't compare times, but you can learn from them. Many of the seminal figures in this country either came here illegally, or were byproducts of those that would now be considered "illegal".

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's well established what a waste of oxygen you are, so bat shit crazy that you make even me look entirely sane. It's a sincere pity that we didn't somehow end up as next door neighbors at some point over the years just so one of us could put the other out of their misery. Who knows, maybe fate will eventually smile on us and provide that opportunity. Failing that, feel free to piss on my grave if you happen to outlive me, Lord only knows I'd do the same to yours with delight.

Also, let me say this to you, Jon.

I like you in some respects. You may not give a shit what I think about you either way, and that's fine. I know I feel largely the same. When it comes to anything not involving politics, though, I think I'd get along swell with you. We could smoke cigs together without guilt and talk about sports.

But goddamn if we aren't polar opposites politically.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Even if you don't care one iota for the victim in the case, I think people should at least care about having a group of borderline psychopaths roaming the streets.

You're really blowing this out of proportion. Borderline psychopaths?


On the one hand, if the guy hadn't been here illegally, he might be alive today. *shrug*

Anyhow, it is hard to feel empathy in a situation like this with little facts, etc. My wife tells me I'm a cold person, BTW. (this next part is just me rambling a bit) We defend the rights of animals and kids because they supposedly don't know any better or don't have a voice of their own. So we give them benefit of the doubt. Would we give the same benefit of the doubt to other groups? Why then do we give the free pass to illegal immigrants? They (adults at least) know better and know they're here illegally.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

On the one hand, if the guy hadn't been here illegally, he might be alive today. *shrug*

Kind of an asshole thing to say, RA. That's like me saying to you, if your dad was sober that one night, you wouldn't exist. Yeah, it's true, but it doesn't change what happened. Anyone else, people would be saying "They screwed up, they gotta pay the price, man..accident or not"

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

If an uneducated, untrained, non-English speaking guy is applying for the same job you are, and he's legal, that is capitalism. Survival of the fittest. If he's illegal, he should not be competing for the same job as you. In fact, he shouldn't be in the country at all.

Why have borders at all then? Why don't we all just have one big, global country? Sorry, the world isn't ready for that.

Fact is, we do have borders, we do have separate countries, and we all have governments with the responsibility to support the lives of the people over whom they rule. You keep bringing up brain surgeons and getting skills and ignoring the fact that all that is irrelevant. If illegals came here with brain surgeon skills, it would be relevant, but they don't. You don't seem to understand it's not about the type of jobs being taken, it's about the fact they're taking jobs away at all. Stop thinking Americans are supposed to be better than illegals. That's ethnocentric. Start thinking that the jobs here in the US should be held by legal workers, American or otherwise, and the rest God can take.

Why not ban outsourcing then? They are taking jobs away from Americans.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Welcome to globalization, Rain. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. If businesses have the right, as you say, to pay illegals to do these jobs, they also have the right to pay legal citizens of other countries to do those jobs.

So which is it? Illegal immigration is okay and so is outsourcing? Or ban illegal immigration and don't outsource. You can't user globalization as justification in one part of argument and not then apply it elsewhere. That's a double standard.

Globalization is fine. I work in that world every day. I'm also not saying illegal immigration is fine. I'm saying I think it has some benefits in our country (such as keeping prices much lower).

My major point was that the world changes, it's easier for people to get places. People can't rely on the government to fix everything when technology advances. If you're getting beat out in any field by cheaper and higher skilled labor, then it's your responsibility to fix that. Whether that's picking fruit or programming.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Kind of an asshole thing to say, RA. That's like me saying to you, if your dad was sober that one night, you wouldn't exist. Yeah, it's true, but it doesn't change what happened. Anyone else, people would be saying "They screwed up, they gotta pay the price, man..accident or not"

If they closed the borders I wouldn't know you ;(

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Kind of an asshole thing to say, RA. That's like me saying to you, if your dad was sober that one night, you wouldn't exist. Yeah, it's true, but it doesn't change what happened. Anyone else, people would be saying "They screwed up, they gotta pay the price, man..accident or not"

Yeah. Sorry, but I did say my wife thinks I'm cold-hearted.

BTW, I don't know who my genetic father is. Maybe he's the Kim Jong Il or something.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

If they closed the borders I wouldn't know you ;(

Awww Detox making an appearance in a thread not about South Park or fast food. My heart is so warm I could just skullfuck you!

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Yeah. Sorry, but I did say my wife thinks I'm cold-hearted.

BTW, I don't know who my genetic father is. Maybe he's the Kim Jong Il or something.

At least you found a woman who can tolerate your asshole ways. I'm still waiting.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Awww Detox making an appearance in a thread not about South Park or fast food. My heart is so warm I could just skullfuck you!

Aw, Karl didn't get the black dick but he got the ability to be a white dick.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

You're really blowing this out of proportion. Borderline psychopaths?

Maybe I grew up in a really tame neighborhood but I never remember seeing 6-on-1 fights that left the other guy foaming at the mouth and convulsing. If they aren't psychos, they are just fucking pussies and cowards.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Aw, Karl didn't get the black dick but he got the ability to be a white dick.

I've never gotten the black dick, I only give. The crater that used to be your sister's cervix can testify to that.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I've never gotten the black dick, I only give. The crater that used to be your sister's cervix can testify to that.

Hey message board Jesse Jackson, no one fucking cares what you have to say. I hope your nose quits bleeding up on your high horse.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Hey message board Jesse Jackson, no one fucking cares what you have to say. I hope your nose quits bleeding up on your high horse.

Hey message board Chris Terreri, I hope nobody here wants to keep their goals a secret, because you have a habit of giving them up in bunches.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Hey message board Chris Terreri, I hope nobody here wants to keep their goals a secret, because you have a habit of giving them up in bunches.

You are gonna talk about morals here .. How about the one about the guy who cheats on his girlfriend who loves him with some slag and contracts Chlamydia, then he gives it to his girlfriend?

You fucking suck.

[Abe Sargent]

This thread has really crossed into some nasty territory. I'm not coming back. Some of you people need to calm down. Others need manners. Or smiley faces.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

You are gonna talk about morals here .. How about the one about the guy who cheats on his girlfriend who loves him with some slag and contracts Chlamydia, then he gives it to his girlfriend?

You fucking suck.

Hey at least I didn't have my friends girl suck me off in the parking lot of a bowling alley. Talk about who needs enemies!

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Hey at least I didn't have my friends girl suck me off in the parking lot of a bowling alley. Talk about who needs enemies!

Why don't you go to Western, PA, I read somewhere those people don't like your kind.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Why don't you go to Western, PA, I read somewhere those people don't like your kind.

Look at what you did, you fucking retarded clown. You just made Abe Sargent uncomfortable. Did you even think of him at all before you started this crusade against people with larger penises?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Look at what you did, you fucking retarded clown. You just made Abe Sargent uncomfortable. Did you even think of him at all before you started this crusade against people with larger penises?

Stop your slippery slope argument. The fact of the matter is this: I hate you, you suck, and I hope Memphis basketball rots in hell.

Oh shit. Wrong person.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Stop your slippery slope argument. The fact of the matter is this: I hate you, you suck, and I hope Memphis basketball rots in hell.

Oh shit. Wrong person.

I think this has all gotten way off track. Let's please get back to what this thread is really about:

Mexican people don't belong in America.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I think this has all gotten way off track. Let's please get back to what this thread is really about:

Mexican people don't belong in America.

/thread

[sterlingice]

I sense we will see some happy boxings from this any moment now...

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. The police officer surely doesn't put a bullet in your head if you drive around without a license.

Murder is not an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. It's Jon, we just all acknowledge that and move on.

But, let's stop with the "without proper documentation". You make it sound like he filled in the wrong box on his visa. Or that he accidentally got lost on the way home one day and somehow ended up 2000 miles away in Pennsylvania in a whole other country.

The analogy comparing it to driving around without a license is completely absurd.

No, murder is still not an acceptable punishment for being here illegally. That's why we don't put people who are here illegally to death. However, let's quit with the euphemisms.


SI

[DeToxRox]

Oh shit. I thought this was a PM with Karl and I.

Sorry to air our dirty laundry with everyone else. I promise tomorrow Karl won't sign on with a black eye.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Don't forget to post about the make-up sex.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Oh shit. I thought this was a PM with Karl and I.

Sorry to air our dirty laundry with everyone else. I promise tomorrow Karl won't sign on with a black eye.

Yes. I echo this statement. This was all meant to be a PM conversation. See, I just switched over to Firefox recently, you know..it blocks ads and just makes for an overall superior browsing experience. I still need to work out some of the kinks.

Please accept this greeting card as a token of apology:

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Oh, and this was the Law & Order "ripped from the headlines" storyline this week.