Zimmer should be gone

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Marmel
Yeah, seriously, I would never want anybody to not post what they feel, even you Troy. Everybody has the right to post here, and say what is on their minds...it is a big part of what makes FOFC such a great place.

I

You damned pussy. Don't be a quitter.

[VPI97]

Originally posted by Marmel
I am just glad you didn't bring up today's game.

I was going to quote the post you made a week ago in the Big 12 Forum and make a smart-ass comment, but figured I really couldn't add anything to a 40+ loss.

[EagleFan]

Originally posted by Alan T
I have to believe that Pedro did not intend to injure Garcia on purpose, but the location of that pitch hit his back because he ducked his head. if he had not, it would have been in his ear I think.

This quote has me thinking. Your shoulder is lower than your ear. Don't you get lower when you duck? With that being the case, I can't see how it could have been a head shot it he didn't duck. With the angle the ball came out, I'm still not sold that it didn't hit his bat as was the initial call, but that's not really an issue.

[Marmel]

Originally posted by Schmidty
You damned pussy. Don't be a quitter.

Fine, I won't quit kicking your cat, you feminine, cat-loving, ass-pirate.

[TroyF]

Originally posted by Axxon
And no more beating up 77 year olds ok.

Seriously, if everybody stopped posting because they pissed people off this would be a mighty boring forum.

I understand, but for whatever reason (my writing style, strong opinions or a combination of both) I've pissed people off without trying to do so. What's more, people are getting the wrong idea of the person I really am.

That's bothersome to me. I pride myself on having intelligent debates and always trying to see the other side. I genuinely care about what another person says and try to learn from every debate or discussion I'm involved in.

That isn't coming across. If it's something I'm doing, I'd just as soon shut everything down now and figure out what it is that's causing it rather than piss more people off.

TroyF

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Marmel
Fine, I won't quit kicking your cat, you feminine, cat-loving, ass-pirate.

Stop mocking my peg leg, you insensitive bastard.

[VPI97]

Originally posted by EagleFan
This quote has me thinking. Your shoulder is lower than your ear. Don't you get lower when you duck? With that being the case, I can't see how it could have been a head shot it he didn't duck. With the angle the ball came out, I'm still not sold that it didn't hit his bat as was the initial call, but that's not really an issue.

You have to remember that when the ball is coming in, Garcia was in a crouch (batting stance)...he ducked by moving his head forward, which in turn, hunched up his shoulders.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by TroyF
I pride myself on having intelligent debates and always trying to see the other side. I genuinely care about what another person says and try to learn from every debate or discussion I'm involved in.

TroyF

Well stop it.

If we wanted intelligence around here, we'd read Hi and Lois.

[Calis]

Sorry to interrupt this with talk of the original subject, but I just now got to see the replay on Sportscenter of the whole thing.

I definitely agree with the statement that it's just poor on both sides. No reason for Zimmerman to go over there, and I think it's pretty obvious he was doing something. I also however think Pedro's reaction had a lot more to do with him being pissed off than protecting himself from Zimmerman's vicious assault. So overall I just think it was pretty pathetic on both parts. Zimmerman got what he had coming, and Pedro was an ass. Oh, and Manny was definitely way off for bitching about that pitch, that was not close. Anywho, guess I should also let it be known, I'm not a baseball fan, I don't pay attention to it at all really until the playoffs, so I know very little about players/history.

That whole thing was just crazy, It did make me realize that I hate the Red Sox, I was actually rooting for them because I despise the Yankees so much. Now I have an equal hatred of both teams, so I can cheer solely for the Cubs now.

[SirFozzie]

Heh heh heh.

At some point, you just gotta step back and say "A-Ok.. time to agree to disagree"

Glad to see Zim's not seriously hurt, those Gerbils are tough . But for a 72 year old to charge a ball player less then half his age, and SWING.. not smart, Zim.

Clemens's pitch was a purpose pitch, he put it up there as if to say to Manny... "Now imagine this two feet closer to your head".

Umps made gutless call not tossing anyone out. The only ones hurt by the fight are the fans, no more beer after the 4th inning? Riot fodder right there. Would have been one at Yankee stadium Pedro, Zim and Clemens would have had my vote. I guarantee if one of the starters had been tossed, they would have had to get the other, or you WOULD have had a riot.

Not going to speak about the Bullpen thing, except to say, shouldn't Garcia get a game misconduct for third man in? (NOTE: THIS IS A HOCKEY JOKE, NOT A SUGGESTION HE SHOULD BE SUSPENDED)

Sox have to win today.

[heybrad]

Knowing Marmel, I have to wonder if this is his way to try and run off a competing TV show. I think both shows were doing well in the ratings, so Marm tries to eliminate the competition.

[pjstp20]

Originally posted by Calis
Anywho, guess I should also let it be known, I'm not a baseball fan, I don't pay attention to it at all really until the playoffs, so I know very little about players/history.

That explains why you're calling him Zimmerman.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by heybrad
Knowing Marmel, I have to wonder if this is his way to try and run off a competing TV show. I think both shows were doing well in the ratings, so Marm tries to eliminate the competition.

Dude. Captain Kangaroo died like 2 years ago.

[Chief Rum]

Now, now, Schmidty, we both know you are a good two or three levels lower in the Circles of Hell than I am. But in comparison to Troy, my twin as you say, I am evil incarnate.

CR

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Now, now, Schmidty, we both know you are a good two or three levels lower in the Circles of Hell than I am. But in comparison to Troy, my twin as you say, I am evil incarnate.

CR

Ok. Just as long as you know the hierarchy.

[Chief Rum]

That's right! Marmel has his own NFL show!

It's all coming clear to me now. Conspiracy theorists unite!

Well, guess what, Mr. Smarty Pants. If Troy takes a step back and decides to ditch the show for a bit, I'll keep on pickin' just to show you up! SO NYAH-NYAH!

(imagine Bloom County's Bill the Cat sticking out his tongue, and a Simpson's Nelson laugh in the background).

You got nothing on me! NOTHING! Muhahahahahaha...

CR

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
That's right! Marmel has his own NFL show!

It's all coming clear to me now. Conspiracy theorists unite!

Well, guess what, Mr. Smarty Pants. If Troy takes a step back and decides to ditch the show for a bit, I'll keep on pickin' just to show you up! SO NYAH-NYAH!

(imagine Bloom County's Bill the Cat sticking out his tongue, and a Simpson's Nelson laugh in the background).

You got nothing on me! NOTHING! Muhahahahahaha...

CR

Congrats on your second shortest post ever, Mr. Joyce!!!!

[Axxon]

Originally posted by TroyF
I understand, but for whatever reason (my writing style, strong opinions or a combination of both) I've pissed people off without trying to do so. What's more, people are getting the wrong idea of the person I really am.

That's bothersome to me. I pride myself on having intelligent debates and always trying to see the other side. I genuinely care about what another person says and try to learn from every debate or discussion I'm involved in.

That isn't coming across. If it's something I'm doing, I'd just as soon shut everything down now and figure out what it is that's causing it rather than piss more people off.

TroyF

I understand the sentiment, I really do, but it makes no sense.

First, no one actually said that they were pissed off. They disagree with you and don't like your writing style sure, but nobody said pissed off.

You can't possibly please everyone with your writing style. It's just not possible and if you decide to alter what you do to try and chase the approval of the vocal minority you'll likely end up screwing up what you do that works for everybody else.

Certainly look at negative feedback as constructive criticism but remember you can't make everybody happy. Even Steven King has people who hate his stuff but he's sold a book or two despite that.

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by Schmidty
Congrats on your second shortest post ever, Mr. Joyce!!!!

Congrats on spelling all your words correctly. Also, using morally incorrupt words as well. I am giving you a bye on congrats.

And a literary reference!

CR

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by Chief Rum
Congrats on spelling all your words correctly. Also, using morally incorrupt words as well. I am giving you a bye on congrats.

And a literary reference!

CR

I'm smerter than you think.

[ISiddiqui]

A. Pedro was headhunting and that pitch shouldn't have been tolerated.

B. Zimmer got exactly what was coming to him. I don't care if he's 120, if you are charging another person and you get thrown to the ground, it's your fault.

C. Anyone that says both Pedro and Zimmer were charging each other is either a) blind or b) a Yankees' fanboy.

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by Schmidty
I'm smerter than you think.

That wouldn't be too hard. I don't think you're very smart at all.

CR

[daedalus]

A few more thoughts since I've seen the highlights now . . .

Martinez is a jerkass. Just because he's getting hit for a change, that's no excuse to be throwing at people's head. One day, I'd like to see somebody with an 0-for-4 running out to chase Martinez down because he's been striking everybody out. He's been head-hunting for awhile, I hope he gets his soon.

Ummmmm, Martinez CLEARLY pointed toward the dugout and taunt them with regards to going after Garcia's head. I can't see how anyone can excuse that.

Sadly, ESPN didn't show Garcia's slide. That would've been nice to see. No, I don't want to see injuries or somebody get hurt. But it would be nice to see somebody react to the crap that Martinez constantly pulls in the "appropriate" (in my opinion) manner. Do it "in game" and make the message loud and clear.

Ramirez was a jackass, too. Clemens pitch wasn't anywhere NEAR him (it was head-high, though). Harold Reynolds did an excellent breakdown, though, that showed Ramirez just flinching through the WHOLE at-bat (a la John Kruk against Randy Johnson in that all-star game) since he was expecting to get hit. Admittedly, I can't blame a dude for not wanting to get hit. Let alone by Clemens. But perhaps he needs to let his asshole teammate know that instead of bitching at the other team for possibly protecting their teammate.

Looking at the "high"light, Martinez wasn't moving toward Zimmer at all. He *was* saying some shit the whole time to Zimmer, though, as he usually does when people *shockingly* get upset at having a hard object hurled at their head at a high velocity. Still doesn't excuse Zimmer's action in any way, shape or form.

[Marmel]

Chief, please stop messing around in here and get to the JBL. You are on the draft clock.

[SackAttack]

Originally posted by TroyF
Tell me, how would this have played out if Pedro had tried to sidestep Zim and twisted his knee? How would it have played out if Pedro would have laughed at the old man, put up a weak defense and Zimmer would have busted his eye socket?

Troy, my counter to that is that Zimmer doesn't look like he'd blow away in a stiff breeze. The man is old, but he's still a solid pound of flesh. I think Pedro'd have been every bit as likely to wrench his shoulder throwing Zimmer to the ground as he would have been to twist an ankle sidestepping him. And frankly, if he'd twist an ankle sidestepping a 72 year old, he doesn't need to be launching a baseball off a mound every 5th day to begin with. Far more potential for ankle injuries up there.

[Chief Rum]

Originally posted by Marmel
Chief, please stop messing around in here and get to the JBL. You are on the draft clock.

I know. I saw that trade. And then watched as one of you bastards took my catcher of the future. So screw you, I'm sitting on it for awhile.

CR

P.S. I'll pick before I go to bed.

[daedalus]

Originally posted by TroyF
Zimmer put himself in that situation. He has no business charging Pedro Martinez. You talk about how his career ended? Fine. Why didn't he charge Clemens after the Piazza beaning? (and it WAS a beaning, he had the same intent as Pedro had today, only he actually hit the guy flush)

It's funny, I don't remember Zimmer saying ONE negative thing about Roger during that incident. Why is that? Oh, yeah, because it's his team. That makes it OK.

Since I think I'm the only one that mentioned how Zimmer's career ended, I'm guessing this was in response to my post. Perhaps you can re-read it in a calmer state and actually get my point. I wasn't saying "Zimmer went crazy because somebody got hit in the head". I don't expect Zimmer to go wonky everytime somebody gets hit in the head and, as far as I've seen, he hasn't. Perhaps I'll re-read my post to see if somehow that was the message being conveyed by my post. What I was saying or at least attempted to say was: the asshole tried to hit somebody in the head, came damn close to succeeding and THEN had the gall to walk toward their dugout and friggin' TAUNT the whole damn bench to say he's going to do it again. Now, I happen to think that's something different. I don't get a lot of East Coast baseball out here so perhaps I missed the part where Clemens walked toward the Mets dugout and pointed to his head to say he's going to do it again. If he did that and I missed it, then I apologise. My point was that "given that Martinez did this, I can see how Zimmer could've gotten really pissed" withOUT condoning Zimmer's action. In fact, I said it was highly inappropriate.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Samdari
Is anyone else annoyed at the Yankee fan club calling this game?

Them saying that if Karim Garcia is hurt, the Yankees should be able to replace him, because he got hurt by a fan running onto the field. Huh? The guy was in a fight in the bullpen with Nelson, at least 10 security guys were there before any Yankees (including others in the pen, nice guys) and Garcia runs, jumps in, and starts punching the guy being held down by half the security force. He hurts his hand this way and the Yanks need some special dispensation as a result? Come on.

Two Yankees May Face Charges After Bullpen Brawl

Red Sox spokesman Charles Steinberg said Paul Williams, who works for the grounds crew, contended Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia attacked him.

"The Red Sox are terribly concerned and distressed about the attack on our employee tonight," he said.

....

Williams acknowledged pumping his fist twice while holding a white towel after the Red Sox turned a double play in the ninth inning, Steinberg said.

"If that was in poor taste, or poor judgment, it certainly didn't warrant a beating," Steinberg said.

Williams had cleat marks on his back and his arm, and he may have been kicked in the mouth, Steinberg said.

Williams was taken to Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, and hospital spokeswoman Bonnie Prescott said Williams was discharged early Sunday after undergoing tests in the emergency room. She released no details on any injuries.

The Red Sox also said that two police officers in the bullpen backed Williams' story.

After Nelson confronted Williams, several Yankees surrounded him. Garcia, the right fielder, jumped over the fence and hurt his left hand. He was removed from the game before the bottom of the ninth and was taken to the training room with the hand wrapped.

And the question is whether or not he should be allowed to be replaced on the roster after getting hurt assaulting a groundskeeper?

[TroyF]

Originally posted by daedalus
Since I think I'm the only one that mentioned how Zimmer's career ended, I'm guessing this was in response to my post. Perhaps you can re-read it in a calmer state and actually get my point. I wasn't saying "Zimmer went crazy because somebody got hit in the head". I don't expect Zimmer to go wonky everytime somebody gets hit in the head and, as far as I've seen, he hasn't. Perhaps I'll re-read my post to see if somehow that was the message being conveyed by my post. What I was saying or at least attempted to say was: the asshole tried to hit somebody in the head, came damn close to succeeding and THEN had the gall to walk toward their dugout and friggin' TAUNT the whole damn bench to say he's going to do it again. Now, I happen to think that's something different. I don't get a lot of East Coast baseball out here so perhaps I missed the part where Clemens walked toward the Mets dugout and pointed to his head to say he's going to do it again. If he did that and I missed it, then I apologise. My point was that "given that Martinez did this, I can see how Zimmer could've gotten really pissed" withOUT condoning Zimmer's action. In fact, I said it was highly inappropriate.

Wasn't meant at you. I thought a couple of people posted it. I was a little pissed at the time myself.

I've seen that written as an excuse a couple of different places today. I understand why Zimmer was pissed (and said so in the post) I don't have a problem with Pedro doing what he has to do if Zimmer comes charging at him. I'm just tired of hearing about the innocent 70 year old man who went out to assault an opposing player.

TroyF

[Fonzie]

Just a point of clarification: I don't believe Pedro was taunting the entire Yankees bench. What I saw was Jorge Posada walking out of the dugout, pointing at Pedro and jawing a lot in his direction. Pedro pointed back at Jorge (and not the entire bench) and then at his own head.

Not that this point excuses any of this absurd behavior, but I just thought I'd mention it as this detail didn't seem to make many of the "highlights."'

Carry on.

[Fonzie]

Dola-

I hadn't seen Pedro pitch in a while and was struck by the lack of giddyup on his fastball. He hit 91 on occasion tonight, but was mostly in the 87-90 range. My recollection was that he typically topped out in the 93-95 range. Is he hurt? Or are my expectations way off here? Like I said, I don't really follow Pedro or the Sox, so this velocity loss may be old news for most.

[Solecismic]

I haven't seen the replays since the initial stuff several hours ago. I know I posted that Pedro was walking toward Zimmer, but that could be based entirely on maybe a step or two just as Zimmer got there. Or combining the head-pointing incident.

At any rate, I thought Zimmer definitely initiated contact and was in the wrong (which I also posted). And, really, I agree with TroyF that he's lucky he was just bounced on the grass. I don't care how old you are, you don't raise your hands to someone unless you're prepared to fight. My six-month old caught my wife with a swing the other day and drew blood.

Not that I'm advocating that my wife cold-cock the baby. Or even throw him to the ground.

I like the Troy and Chief show and I hope it continues. I just went back and read last week's, and thought Troy made some insights that were definitely better than a lot of the crap we see on television Sunday mornings. I don't think his writing style is snide or unpleasant. It's difficult to get a couple of good points in with that small a space, and I think his style works.

I did check with my wife about this week's games, just in case we, as a forum, want to go with wife-made picks (wives who don't like football). Remember, she was a little frustrated - one, because the baby is very fussy because he's teething and entering the stage where he likes to bang on everything, and two, because football weekend started early with a Friday-night Michigan game - and I am not fun to be around when Michigan is losing.

Carolina at Indianapolis - "Jim, you were raving about how good Peyton Manning was on Monday, so Carolina will shut him down. Panthers, 20-13."

Chicago at New Orleans - "Paige on Trading Spaces needs to get her hands on that big ugly dome in New Orleans. Bears, 24-21."

Houston at Tennessee - "I can't stand that Rush Limbaugh. Just because he's always wrong, Titans, 31-10."

Kansas City at Green Bay - "Isn't Rush Limbaugh going through the same thing that Brett guy went through? Chiefs, 27-9."

Miami at Jacksonville - "Dolphins are smarter than Jaguars. But they had those Jaguar kittens on Animal Planet and they were so cute. Jaguars 17-16 (she felt very sure there would be an upset here)."

New York Giants at New England - "Everyone's going to be thinking about the Red Sox game. Giants 24-10."

Oakland at Cleveland - "You keep telling me that William Green will be a great one, so I guess this is his chance. Browns 28-23."

Philadelphia at Dallas - "That's the one with the big blue star in the middle of the field? Wouldn't it be funny if the Philadelphia players danced on the star when they scored touchdowns? Eagles 20-10."

Tampa Bay at Washington - "I am really hating the Indian heads on those helmets. Buccaneers 31-0."

Baltimore at Arizona - "Jamal Lewis plays for Baltimore, right? And you got that rookie whatisname wide receiver in your fantasy league, knowing perfectly well rookie wide receivers hit a wall right about now. Ravens, 26-14."

Buffalo at New York Jets - "Those Buffalo uniforms look like pajama tops. Jets 22-17."

Pittsburgh at Denver - "Don Zimmer could run for 100 with the Denver offensive line scheme (we've had a lot of Zimmer talk around here today). Broncos 30-20."

San Francisco at Seattle - "When we lived out there, no one cared because the games were always blacked out on television. 49ers 26-13."

Atlanta at St. Louis - "I don't think that Warner lady should be calling radio stations. She looks like the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz, so maybe she married the wrong quarterback. Rams 27-23."

[Axxon]

Originally posted by mckerney
Two Yankees May Face Charges After Bullpen Brawl

[i]

"If that was in poor taste, or poor judgment, it certainly didn't warrant a beating," Steinberg said.

True on both parts. They should face assault charges but here's the thing, they really need to wait until after this series is over. You want to talk about a possible riot, yikes.

I also don't think it's the right thing to do putting partisan employees in close proximity to the opposing teams players. Doesn't warrant a beating but the team should try and insure this doesn't happen as it's extremely poor sportsmanship in the best of times and when tempers flare like they did this evening, events like this are bound to happen.

Leave the taunting and heckling and homership to the fans. That's their job.

[Solecismic]

Originally posted by Fonzie
Dola-

I hadn't seen Pedro pitch in a while and was struck by the lack of giddyup on his fastball. He hit 91 on occasion tonight, but was mostly in the 87-90 range. My recollection was that he typically topped out in the 93-95 range. Is he hurt? Or are my expectations way off here? Like I said, I don't really follow Pedro or the Sox, so this velocity loss may be old news for most.

He's been hitting 93-94 in most of his starts. Haven't seen much 95+ this year, but you're right, when he's topping out at 90, he's hittable. That was often the problem last year.

[mckerney]

Originally posted by Solecismic
because football weekend started early with a Friday-night Michigan game - and I am not fun to be around when Michigan is losing.

And I'm not fun to be around when Minnesota let's Michigan beat them like that...

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Solecismic
At any rate, I thought Zimmer definitely initiated contact and was in the wrong (which I also posted). And, really, I agree with TroyF that he's lucky he was just bounced on the grass. I don't care how old you are, you don't raise your hands to someone unless you're prepared to fight. My six-month old caught my wife with a swing the other day and drew blood.

Not that I'm advocating that my wife cold-cock the baby. Or even throw him to the ground.

Then you're discussing apples and oranges at least in reference to my point which is what I think you're doing. Troy didn't say that Zimmer was lucky, he said that if a 77 year old charged him he'd knock him on his ass. That is the same as your wife cold-cocking the baby.

When alternative methods of defending yourself are available one should take them and the blanket statement that he made is what I objected to. I've admitted that I wasn't talking about the incident as I hadn't seen it but again, hearing Pedro's side of things he wasn't trying to knock Zimmer on his ass. I'll take his word on it. He was doing what I was talking about and it looked worse than it was.

[Solecismic]

It's not the same, because the baby clearly doesn't intend to hurt anyone when he swings wildly. I threw that out there to show that anyone can hurt someone else, no matter how small or supposedly weak.

So the baby part is apples and oranges, you're right, when it comes to appropriate responses.

Personally, I don't what I'd do if Zimmer charged me in a situation like that. I think Pedro handled that part of it fairly well in the heat of the battle. You just don't know exactly what's going to happen. The adrenaline is flowing, baseball fights can be really awful when a bunch of people pile on. In that context - assuming the chaos of a baseball brawl - Troy's statement is more a statement of fact. Zimmer was lucky to come away with just a scratch.

I don't think Troy meant that in a more controlled situation - just Zimmer going after Pedro without 49 angry baseball players milling about - that Pedro should treat the situation like the Ultimate Fighting Championship. When things are controlled, an honorable man uses the least violent method possible to ensure his own safety.

[Axxon]

dola -

The cnnsi article gives a more complete quote from Pedro.

"I could never hit him. I would never do it," Martinez said. "I was just trying to dodge him and push him away, and too bad his body fell. I hope he's fine."

IF this is what he did then that is an example of how I think you handle a situation like that. It provides safety and minimizes the chance of harm to the old guy.

If he grabbed his head and tossed him to the ground face first then that's over the top and unnecessary.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by Solecismic

I don't think Troy meant that in a more controlled situation - just Zimmer going after Pedro without 49 angry baseball players milling about - that Pedro should treat the situation like the Ultimate Fighting Championship. When things are controlled, an honorable man uses the least violent method possible to ensure his own safety.

That last line is exactly what I was saying. I understand your point about the melee and it's a point well taken. I just didn't get that from Troy's statement but if he meant in those circumstances then I can see the point.

BTW, Your point about the baby is what I meant with the seven year old but you regressed Zimmer more than I did because I did want to keep the hostile intent as part of the example. Also, really, I'd be more concerned with a seven year old hurting me than most 77 year olds if neither had a weapon. The body isn't as well developed but the enthusiasm, stamina and the wildness factor are not to be underestimated.

Lastly, I'm really not giving Troy grief though I keep using his line as my example. I know what he said was said in the heat of the moment and that it's possible that in a less volitile state of mind he'd have said it differently.

[haji1]

If I am in the middle of a chaotic brawl, adrenaline flowing, anger piqued, I am not going to be thinking through my reaction to a violent threat. I am just going to respond. Pedro responded much better than I would have. I agree with TroyF here I would have probably hit him. I would like to think I would not have, but that is my instinct. I don't go looking for 70+ people to hit, btw.

'When alternative methods of defending yourself are available'

What were the alternative methods for Pedro? To me it would be to hit or grab. I think he chose the right one.


Interestling (or maybe not) we have a case currently pending about a 59 year old who hit a 70 year old at a local golf club and killed him. The 70 year old was an ass and started the fight, but the 59 year old now has charges pending against him.

BTW Troy, I love your NFL previews. They are indepth and inightful. I think you are just like anyone who makes predictions for a living, you are confident you are right and about your reasons why. You are just trying to get that message across to your readers. If the betting gurus didn't come across as seemingly knowing everything and knowing for sure who their "super triple lock upset special" of the week was no one would subscribe to them. I just read your stuff as the same. Confident.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by haji1


When alternative methods of defending yourself are available'

What were the alternative methods for Pedro? To me it would be to hit or grab. I think he chose the right one.

Again, in this situation if all that I've read then he indeed did the right thing and it would be an appropriate one in most situations.

I was reading Troy's post as a blanket rule of thumb and advocating more than a dodge and push. I didn't read it as specific to this particular scenario. I'll admit that I may have read it wrong but he's never really corrected my assumptions so I don't know.

[Axxon]

Originally posted by haji1


Interestling (or maybe not) we have a case currently pending about a 59 year old who hit a 70 year old at a local golf club and killed him. The 70 year old was an ass and started the fight, but the 59 year old now has charges pending against him.

I can see this being the case. He was being an ass is no basis for a self defense claim. People need to control there tempers. This case shows TWO good reasons for that.

Next, this really isn't to you but it's part of my thought processes on why I feel like I do.

Hip Fractures

My grandmother was part of the 20% who didn't make it although it was really a blessing because she also had alzheimers which is an incredibly frightening disease. I never knew about the hip thing but her doctor said it would almost certainly kill her and it did.

Anyway, I now know the real dangers of hip breaks and unless I really felt that my life was being threatened I just couldn't knock an elderly person on his ass and risk being the cause of that much grief and suffering and possibly killing the guy. I don't want to get hurt but man, a black eye because I wasn't quick enough to avoid him would hurt less to me than having somebodys death on my hands and I can't easily rationalize, well he charged me so it's all on him. Others maybe can but I certainly could not.

In case somebody wants to use the old, well that's the canadian health care system here's basically the same stats in the us.

US Hips

Note this line:

And, according to the National Center for Injury Prevention (NCIP), for people 65-84 years of age, falls are the second leading cause of injury-related death. For those 85 years or older, falls are the leading cause of injury-related death.

This is serious stuff.

[Vince]

Originally posted by Solecismic
I think they should adopt the football approach and settle these things with fines and suspensions if the crime is serious enough.

Pedro earned quite a nice fine with the Garcia pitch and the pointing. And maybe it was worth it. The Yankee bats haven't made a peep since. Soriano was nice enough to let Pedro off the hook with the double-play ball.

Off-topic, but something I'm curious about. Clemens was at 96 pitches through six, and still looked like he had good stuff. The Yankees bullpen has been terrible all year. Why did they pull him?

It was a tense situation, and Clemens' experience was invaluable. The relievers barely made it through the 7th, giving half the lead back. I thought Heredia was going to pass out from fear, and Contreras was all over the place.

And Pedro wasn't even at 100 pitches either. Why pull him after seven? He had the Yankees so intimidated, Jeter was wishing he was back in the office trading credit cards with Steinbrenner.

You talk about expansion and 12-man pitching staffs diluting pitching, and it shows. I do not understand why you'd want anyone but Clemens and Martinez pitching in this game - maybe Rivera in the 9th if the pitch count is over 120.

Thanks Jim, you have made a point here that I really am curious about myself that got ignored because of the "brawl" (I'm going to ignore the whole brawl thing...lots of people were stupid, let's leave it at that).

Both pitchers looked so fired up following the 'incident,' I'm amazed either manager was even considering taking them out of the game. Clemens got himself into a little trouble, but then he induced a nice double play. Neither pitcher seemed tired to me...

[oykib]

Originally posted by Vince
Thanks Jim, you have made a point here that I really am curious about myself that got ignored because of the "brawl" (I'm going to ignore the whole brawl thing...lots of people were stupid, let's leave it at that).

Both pitchers looked so fired up following the 'incident,' I'm amazed either manager was even considering taking them out of the game. Clemens got himself into a little trouble, but then he induced a nice double play. Neither pitcher seemed tired to me...

If there's a game seven, those guys will face each other again. I'm not at all suprised that they came out when they did. If I were Torre I probably would have done the same thing.

I don't know why Grady Little used his two most effective relievers while losing, though. I will come this short of guarunteeing that it'll cost him one of the next two games.

[Alan T]

Originally posted by oykib

I don't know why Grady Little used his two most effective relievers while losing, though. I will come this short of guarunteeing that it'll cost him one of the next two games.

Grady Little took alot of heat up here for -NOT- doing that the game before when they were down by 2. Everyone said by using Sauerbeck, Little was giving up or conceding game 2 to the Yankees.

I personally think Grady Little has managed to work himself into the fun state of no matter what he does, he can not win. If a move he makes works out, everyone states the Sox win in spite of him. If a move he makes does not work out, everyone points at that and cites it as the reason for the Sox failures.

Grady Little has managed to place himself into being the possible goat of the 2003 season for the Sox. I personally do not think that much of Little's managerial skills.. but I am really amused to how people respond to moves he makes up here on the Radio.

[TroyF]

Lets see, where to start?

One, yes, Jim is right. If there was an out, I'd take it. I wouldn't hurt ANYONE if I had a way out. I have a lot of Tae Kwon Doe training, the first thing would be to analyze the situation and try to avoid it if I could.

By the same token, if I was surprised (and I'm sure Pedro was) by anyone coming at me in an attacking position, that same training would be used to disable the threat as quickly as possible. I'm not going to wait around for 5 minutes and try and figure out if the old guy can throw a punch or not. My initial reaction to an unexpected violent act would be to respond in kind. It doesn't matter if the guy is 25, 50 or 75. As I've said before, Zimmer put himself in that situation. I have zero sympathy for him. If Pedro had punched him, Zimmer is the one responsible for initiating the violence. I still stand firm in the belief Zimmer should never be allowed to take the bench again. The coaches need to be the guys trying to break up the fights, not the guys starting them. What he did was classless and uncalled for. He is VERY lucky he didn't get seriously hurt by doing what he did.

Next. . .

Axxon,

Thanks for putting things into perspective. You're right. I just snapped because of something that was said that I take very personal. Considering the statement I was most bothered with is 100% false and I could prove it time and time again, I should take it for what it is: Some guy who has made a judgement about me without bothering to understand who I am.

I thought more about it last night and looked over things. I've made 10+ predictions in a week 5 times in 3 years on this board. The only two things I've taken any credit for in the predictions, are two I started seperate threads to discuss. (Packers/Vikings, Raiders offensive struggles without Porter) The show wasn't my idea, but I have a lot of fun making the picks. I'll continue to do so and will be a little less sensitive of the people who choose to call me out without understanding who I am or what I'm about.

If I ever do truly offend someone, please send me a PM. My goal in life isn't to piss people off, especially on a board where there are a lot of people I consider friends. Time to post some game capsules.

TroyF

[clintl]

I was thinking about the hip fracture thing, too, when Zimmer went down. My great-grandmother fell and broke her hip, and although she lived a couple of more years, she was never able to live at home again.

Still, though, there's no doubt that Zimmer was trying to attack Pedro, and I don't blame Pedro for defending himself like he did. It was a pretty restrained reaction. There's no doubt, though, that Pedro was responsible for getting the whole thing started.

I don't see how people can argue that Zimmer should never be on the bench again. It was an ugly moment, but what Zimmer did is no worse than what countless players, coaches, and managers have done in the past in similar situations. A suspension and fine, maybe, but that's all that's necessary and appropriate.

[dfisher]

I don't fault Garcia one bit for jumping the fence and joining in the fight. He's in the middle of an intense, hostile environment. He turns around and sees his teammate in a fight with what looks like a fan. His first instinct, especially with the semi-recent history of fan attacks at baseball games, is to go to his teammates aide. The code of conduct, FOR FANS, in that situation is "enter at your own risk."

Dan

[TroyF]

Originally posted by dfisher
I don't fault Garcia one bit for jumping the fence and joining in the fight. He's in the middle of an intense, hostile environment. He turns around and sees his teammate in a fight with what looks like a fan. His first instinct, especially with the semi-recent history of fan attacks at baseball games, is to go to his teammates aide. The code of conduct, FOR FANS, in that situation is "enter at your own risk."

Dan

It wasn't a fan though. Plus, the situation was already under control. If I see the police holding a man on the ground, I don't have the right to walk up and punch him or spike him.

Garcia had no business jumping over that wall.

TroyF

[JonInMiddleGA]

Having seen the replay (missed it live because we were hosting an engagement party for a family friend) --

I'm not convinced Pedro was threatening more beanballs. There are any number of logical explanations (especially regarding Pedro)

I agree.

Think, why would I throw at Garcia and load the bases.

Which seems to be a popular explanation and reasonable IMO.

or ... "Now I'm in your heads."

Which is what I thought he was saying when I saw the clip for the first time. Unless he admits differently, that's still what I think he was saying.

And as for the Zimmer thing, Don's a lucky man, 'cause I'd have dropped him like a bad habit. Pedro let him off far easier than I imagine anyone else would have gotten.