Euro 2004 Discussion

[RPI-Fan]

What's with Portugal's lineup?

Couto, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes all on the bench.

[3ric]

Scolari's way of telling those underperforming primadonnas to shape up or ride the pine.

[RPI-Fan]

But Figo gets a free pass? And Ronaldo is still on the bench?

Seems like a double-standard...

[SirFozzie]

Ok..



(spoiler)

who had Greece with control of their own destiny entering the final game of group play? if they tie or beat Russia (who will likely be playing for pride only, if they don't win against Portugal, they cannot make it to the quarterfinal).. they are through no matter what...

1-0 to Portugal already. Yikes. Guess they had the fear of God put into em

[SirFozzie]

Ok. 1-0 at the half, plus Ovchinnikov, the Russian goalie, just got sent off for handball outside the area (will miss the final game as well.. so it's straight to Siberia for him).. Portugal's got this one/

[3ric]

What was it about the guy in the crowd that ran at the Russian bench? He had to be restrained by four guards...

[Katon]

Originally Posted by 3ric

I'm totally in awe about how good Spain's right winger Joaquin is! Everybody's been raving about Vicente, for good reasons, but this guy is even better...

Can't use his left foot, though.

Seriously, I'd been hoping for Joaquin as the solution to the gap on Chelsea's right side for quite a while just based on his reputation (Real see him as Figo's replacement, which looks pretty plausible so far, wouldn't you say?) and the fact that he isn't Beckham, and seeing him play live - and play like that - has only reinforced the hope.

HFP - France's World Cup was a complete fluke. Zidane missed the tournament injured, and they had even less luck finishing than the Spanish have had in this tournament. With Zidane in the team, and with Henry, they have two of the top four or five players in the world. Add in people like Viera, Makelele, Pires, and Gallas, and you've got one of the most talented squads in the world. I wouldn't say they were outplayed by England, either; the English just set up a wall around the penalty area and prayed France wouldn't score. Except for the goal and the penalty, England never looked remotely like scoring.

[Coder]

Totti might be suspended for spitting on a Danish player in the game on Monday.

http://www.euro2004.com/News/Kind=1/newsId=194049.html

I honestly don't think Sweden will have an easier time despite not having to face Totti, but one less superstar to think about is always nice.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Greece-Spain
MIJ scenario: 0-0 draw

Russia-Portugal
MIJ scenario: With a draw in the other game, Portugal will be motivated knowing they still have a shot at winning the group. In this scenario, I can see Portugal win 2-0.

I feel like a football expert now.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Aadik, I agree with some of your points, but on the defensive issue I do dare to defend Advocaat's decission yesterday.
Heitinga and Stam are great defenders, but only on the right side of the centre, not on the left. Knowing that, there are very few candidates to play left central defender:
1. Phillip Cocu - could play there, but was needed to mark Ballack on the midfield.
2. Frank de Boer - is written off and only selected as a hommage as being the most capped Dutchman.
3. "Fredje" Bouma - still new to the position as he saw a weird career starting at striker and then slowly went from left winger to left midfielder to leftback to left central defender.

Sadly, there are very no Dutch defenders who are better then this at left central defender, except the one-and-a-half year long and not back to old form Kevin Hofland.

Now start wondering why on earth it took me 90 minutes to finish this reply...

Haha. I actually was wondering about Hofland- I havent had a chance to watch much Dutch football anymore, other than the odd European appearance. 2 years ago he was being linked to Man Utd, as a potential star- now, he's not even good enough for the squad ? Now that I think about it, I do see your point- I can't exactly see too much options for the Dutch at the centre of defense- they seem unusually weak there.

[Crapshoot]

I don't think there's a team in the tournament that has better wingers than Spain- Joaquin and Vincente have both been pretty amazing. Madrid has long seen the former as the eventual replacement for Figo on the right side of that midfield, though Figo isn't really an ought and ought winger.

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group A.
Scores:
Greece 0-0 Spain
Russia 0-2 Portugal

Standings:
1. Greece 4 pt (3-2)
2. Spain 4 pt (2-1)
3. Portugal 3 pt (3-2)
4. Russia 0 pt (0-3) - knocked out

Next up:
Greece-Russia
Spain-Portugal
Greece need a draw to advance, can win the group with a victory.
Spain advance with a draw, can win the group with a draw or win.
Portugal need a win to advance as they lost to Greece, a draw is not enough.
The Greece and Spain draw means that if they end up equal in points, the three-game goal difference or goals scored will be tiebreakers. In the worst case, ending up tied after that, Spain will advance to the quarterfinals based on results in WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifiers.
MIJ scenario: Portugal 2-1 Spain, Greece 2-2 Russia
Russia have a reputation to defend as last round spoilers. I can see Greece almost choke with the next round in their hands. A wild game will keep things interesting all 0 minutes in both games.
But, Portugal-Spain is the obvious most exciting game of the group. Spain are the big neighbours, yet Portugal are the team needing to win. Somehow I can see Portugal escape in this game and knock-out Spain.


The nine possible scenarios:
Greece win, Spain win -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Greece win, Spain tie -> 1. Greece, 2. Spain
Greece win, Portugal win -> 1. Greece, 2. Portgual
Greece tie, Spain win -> 1. Spain, 2. Greece
Greece tie, Spain tie -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Greece tie, Portugal win -> 1. Portugal, 2. Greece
Greece lose, Spain win -> 1. Spain, 2. Greece
Greece lose, Spain tie -> 1. Spain, 2. Greece
Greece lose, Portugal win -> 1. Portugal, 2. ****
**** = Greece or Spain based on best goal difference, most goal scored or last case Spain winning tie-breakers

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Haha. I actually was wondering about Hofland- I havent had a chance to watch much Dutch football anymore, other than the odd European appearance. 2 years ago he was being linked to Man Utd, as a potential star- now, he's not even good enough for the squad ? Now that I think about it, I do see your point- I can't exactly see too much options for the Dutch at the centre of defense- they seem unusually weak there.

Definatly, after Rijkaard retired, Frank de Boer took over. From 1996 to 2000, De Boer was a top defender and his injury was a big deal in Oranje's relative bad 1996 campaign. However, De Boer looks over the top and despite De Boer's huge career, his selection is only not questionable since the left defender position is thin.
Winston Bogarde is about 15th choice at Chelsea.
Feyenoord's Patrick Paauwe only fits at the midfield in Oranje.
Ruud Knol is coming back from a career threatening injury, he was a hot player going into the WC2002 qualifying campaign.
Ex-Willem II and next season AZ defender Joris Mathijsen is far from ready.
Barry Opdam has no international experience at AZ, but could get some next season.

By the way, Hofland's situation is also the story of Bouma. Hofland's injury paved the way for Guus Hiddink to try Bouma in the centre and Bouma played well enough to keep the role.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by 3ric

I'm totally in awe about how good Spain's right winger Joaquin is! Everybody's been raving about Vicente, for good reasons, but this guy is even better...

He's one of more highly rated young players that I've read about. Never seen him, though.

Of course, as a Gunners fan, I'm obliged to say that the best young Spanish winger is playing as a forward at Highbury.

[daedalus]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

What's with Portugal's lineup?

Couto, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes all on the bench.

Given that they're both simiarly talented players and Rui Costa spent a lot of the season being kept out of the lineup by Kaka while his replacement spent much of it helping his under-rated team win the Champion's League, I don't think it's a horrible move. From all I've read, the defenders that were out were all replaced by similarly rated players.

And, yes, Figo would get a "free pass" as you call it. He's still one of the main driving force for that squad and, as he goes, so goes the team. Not to mention that C Ronaldo still haven't even established himself as a starter with his club yet (though if the end of the season is any indication, that's coming REALLY soon). Plus, being able to introduce C Ronaldo into a game against tiring defenders has got to be one of the meannest thing ever.

[cg]

Do you know which person Portugals Ronaldo is named after?

http://www.manutdzone.com/playerpage...anoRonaldo.htm

(Ronaldo Trivia).

[Crapshoot]

Ronald Regean...

[MIJB#19]

Let's see whether my crystal ball was crystal clear 3 days ago...

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

England-Switzerland
MIJ scenario: 2-0 England
Switzerland is even weaker then I expected and England have something to correct. 2-0 might even be a little low, yet this is the early evening game, when the heat is a bigger factor.

Croatia-France
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
With both teams more focussed on not losing then winning, this could be a defensive game. The French won't underestimate Croatia's striker Dado Prso. Somehow I expect that the French will be a little bit exhausted and the relative weak Croatians take advantage to score a late equalizer.

[Mac Howard]

The news is that Croatia are going to field a second string team against France to save the first choice players for the England game. They figure that they may beat England and go through in second place with 4 points against England's three (assuming they beat Switzerland).

Croatia look like a difficult team to beat - their style reminds me of the hunt-in-packs, aggressive, pressing game of Porto.

Another danger for England is that if France beat Croatia and then field a reserve team against Switzerland in the last game (having already taken top position) they could let Switzerland back into the reckoning (England draw with the Swiss and beat Croatia - 4 points - but Switzerland beat the second string French team - 5 points). France, of course, 6 points.

Another consideration: it may be better to finish second in this group if Greece finish first in group A and Spain second.

An hour to the England match. Hope Eriksson's got the negativity out of his system

[Darkiller]

I see France going 2-0 in this game.

[PilotMan]

Spoiler....










England, after surviving very early, is ahead 1-0 22min in. Rooney scores on a header.

[PilotMan]

Spoiler








Rooney scores in the second half England go 2-0.

[SirFozzie]

Very uninspiriting performance tho. They're calling it an own goal for Rooney's 2nd on Soccernet

[PilotMan]

A third for England off the keeper, should add that the Swiss are down to 10 men. I guess they can breath a sigh of relief now.

[mordhiem]

Unconvincing yet comfortable performance from England. Beckham was dissapointing again I felt, thouigh Lampard and Gerrard were improved.

[ice4277]

Jeez, is Switzerland having a bad time of it or what? Two red cards in two games? Yeesh.

[SirFozzie]

2nd game of the day, France v Croatia going on now. France clinches going through with a win.

Croatia was thought to be resting their players with an eye towards the group finale with England. Five Croatian players were booked in their first game with Switzerland, which earned a fine from UEFA, and they can't afford to have any of their guys to pick up a 2nd yellow and be suspended for the England game.

The 3-0 England win pretty much means that a draw should be enough to get them through against Croatia, UNLESS Croatia pull off the upset.. then it becomes a must win.

[SirFozzie]

As pretty much expected, France is dominating so far.. and Silvestre gets credit for the France goal from an awesome free kick cross by Zidane that Silvestre basically glanced.

Zidane=Man of the Tournament so far.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by RPI-Fan

What's with Portugal's lineup?

Couto, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes all on the bench.

Any of these guys get carded in the 1st game?

Perhaps they are being saved for the MUST win game VS Spain?

[SirFozzie]

1-0 at the half. Croatia somewhat woke up in the 2nd part of the half, but France is the better side so far.

[B & B]

latter stages of the first half saw some inspiration from the croatians. zidane has been playing well, but ball challenges as a whole are lacking for this talent level - IMO.

[SirFozzie]

1-1.

Silvestre (who had his goal taken away, they said Croatian Igor Tudor put it past his own keeper) gives away his second penalty in as many games, with a CLUMSY challenge... Surprised he didn't get booked.

Barthez almost saved his ass again, diving the right way, but this time the penalty (by Rapaic) is too well placed.

France will want to go forward now, they don't want their game against Switzerland to mean anything on their side.

[SirFozzie]

To quote the english soccer announcers..

"Well, now.. what about this!"

Prso puts it in on a left footer into the roof of the net after Desailly failed to clear, and Croatia now have 35 minutes until they throw the group into utter chaos... 2-1 Croatia

[SirFozzie]

And France equalizes. Trezeguet. One of the better games of the tournament so far

[3ric]

I'm as always surprised that Danish referee Kim Milton Nielsen (who's in the current game) still is considered a world-class referee. Sure, his command of the game is very good, he maintains a good flow, but he's horrid at separating actual fouls from play acting. Remember, he's the one who sent off David Beckham in the Argentina game 1998. Diego Simeone admitted afterwards he made a meal out of Beckham's touch. He hasn't gotten less gullible since.

[SirFozzie]

Looks like a draw. France are not through yet.

France +1 Goal Differential, 4 Points
England +2 Goal Differential, 3 Points
Croatia, +0 Goal Differential, 2 Points
Switzerland, -3 Goal Differential, 1 Point.

If France beats or draws against the Swiss, they are through.

If the Swiss beat France, they are through (they'd have the first tiebreaker, in H2H), and France would be out.

England can advance with a draw against Croatia. Croatia must beat England to advance.

So.. you can consider this a psuedo playoff round, with one team needing a draw to advance, and the other needing a victory.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Looks like a draw. France are not through yet.

France +1 Goal Differential, 4 Points
England +2 Goal Differential, 3 Points
Croatia, +0 Goal Differential, 2 Points
Switzerland, -3 Goal Differential, 1 Point.

If France beats or draws against the Swiss, they are through.

If the Swiss beat France, they are through (they'd have the first tiebreaker, in H2H), and France would be out.

England can advance with a draw against Croatia. Croatia must beat England to advance.

So.. you can consider this a psuedo playoff round, with one team needing a draw to advance, and the other needing a victory.

Thanks for doing my job...
Edit: But you're not 100% correct on the France-Swiss situation, see below.

[Alf]

If France loses and England draws Croatia => France still goes because of head to head advantage over England

[Alf]

Matthijs has again predicted the correct results today. Impressive !

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group B.
Scores:
England 3-0 Switzerland
Croatia 2-2 France

Standings:
1. France 4 pt (4-3)
2. England 3 pt (4-2)
3. Croatia 2 pt (2-2)
4. Switzerland 1 pt (0-3)

Next up:
England-Croatia
Switzerland-France
England need a draw to advance, plain and simple.
Croatia need a victory to advance, plain and simple.
Switzerland need a victory to advance, yet in the case of an England draw need to win by 3 goals over France.
France advance with a draw, yet a loss by 2 goals won't be lethal if England draws.
MIJ scenario: France 2-0 Switzerland, England 1-1 Croatia
Croatia looked so good, yet England won't let them get through and knock them out in the no-win-no-lose-scenario. France has been good, but not great, yet the Swiss are the weakest of the group by far.

The nine possible scenarios:
France win, England win -> 1. France, 2. England
France win, England tie -> 1. France, 2. England
France win, Croatia win -> 1. France, 2. Croatia
France tie, England win -> 1. England, 2. France
France tie, England tie -> 1. France, 2. England
France tie, Croatia win -> 1. ****, 2. ****
Switzerland win, England win -> 1. England, 2. Switzerland
Switzerland win, England tie -> 1. ####, 2. ####
Switzerland win, Croatia win -> 1. Croatia, 2. Switzerland
**** = France or Croatia based on best goal difference, most goal scored or last case France winning tie-breakers
#### = England or Switzerland winners based on a best goal difference, France or Switzerland second based on best goal difference or if tied a scenario I can't oversee with France holding tiebreakers over goals scores, but the Swiss possibly taking the qf-ticket based on h-t-h if England results are excluded after England get's the group victory

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Alf

If France loses and England draws Croatia => France still goes because of head to head advantage over England

Nope, it will be a 3-way tie and the goal difference will be the next tiebreaker.
With England at +3 they advance, France will need to keep it at -1 (better goal difference )or -2 (big mystery scenario)

EDIT: Clarification

England draw, France lose:

France 4 pt
England 4 pt
Swiss 4 pt
Croatia 3 pt - out

next h-t-h
France 3 pt
England 3 pt
Swiss 3 pt

next h-t-h goal difference
France +1 and Fra-Swi score
England +2
Swiss -3 and Fra-Swi score

what happens next if Swiss win by 2 will be a big question:
Will England be excluded and the others re-tiebroken -> Swiss win
Will tiebreaking advance to next step: goal in h-t-h (same), goal difference in all (same), goals in all (Fra > Swi) -> France win

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Alf

Matthijs has again predicted the correct results today. Impressive !

Only half way there for the second round of group matches, don't jinx me know...

EDIT:
By the way, you're leading the We-dot-win-dot-com Euro2004 prediction competition ahead of Chief Rum and a volleyball buddy.

EDIT2:
I can't believe this is already the 30th post "wasted" in this thread alone by me... :o

[MIJB#19]

I just had to bump this thread, knowing it would look like a tripledola...

In 8 hours and 15 minutes, my crystal ball will be tested again. I did lose confidence in my Sweden-Italy prediction. With Totti suspended for 3 games, I wonder what Italy can do now. It wasn't like Totti played like the big leader against Denmark, but now the team will rely even more on Del Piero (who looks over the top) feeding Vieri (who has just had his worst season in 6 years).

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Bulgaria-Denmark
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
Denmark were impressive against Italy, yet Bulgaria will be detirmened. Denmark looks a bit better, yet Bulgaria are not to be underestimated, despite the 0-5 trashing. I suspect a close game with Bulgaria upsetting Denmark a little.

Italy-Sweden
MIJ scenario: depends on other game
Both teams advance with a victory. With Italy's mission depending on the other game, I have two scenario's for this game.
With a Bulgarian victory or draw, I suspect this game will be a no-lose at all cost game and end in a 1-1 draw.
A Danish victory will require Italy to go for it, which isn't their style. Sweden have no need to attack, but the probably will anyway. Despite that I see Sweden as a semi-finalists, in this scenario I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy steal an undeserved 1-0 victory.

[Darkiller]

Disapointing performance for France.
We clearly dominate the game but we are unable to score a proper goal and our defense commits unusual mistakes.

We will have to play better than that if we want to reach the Championship finals again.

Zidane is the best player of Euro 2004 so far.
Although he didn't "technically" score yesterday, his overall play during the game was much better than against england. He's playing really well right now.
Zizou was named "Player of Euro 2000" last time, let's see if he can repeat this time again.

Overall, I'm disapointed we made those mistakes yesterday and it's a pity that we will have to play that 3rd game against swizerland with pressure.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Darkiller

Zidane is the best player of Euro 2004 so far.
Although he didn't "technically" score yesterday, his overall play during the game was much better than against england. He's playing really well right now.
Zizou was named "Player of Euro 2000" last time, let's see if he can repeat this time again.

One trick that the Dutch television kept replaying was the trick in the first half on a short corner kick from Henry(?) to Zidane. Zidane lobbed the ball with his heel to Gallas, who headed the ball over the goal.

[Darkiller]

Yeah that was superb ;-)

[MIJB#19]

Wanna see Dutch payback time humor over the Germans "Ihr seid nicht dabei" way of making fun of the Dutch missing WC2002?

Internet poll from the German newspaper Bild, who are the most aggressive towards the Dutch football team:


Edit:
You know what? This deserves it's own thread!

[andy m]

ROONEY

[Mac Howard]

The best thing for France now is to lose by one goal to Switzerland. That will guarantee them second place regardless of what happens in the England/Croatia match and probably give them Greece in the next round

[Darkiller]

hmm not sure about that Mac,
for that to happen (them losing by 1 or 2 goals and still getting the 2nd place), they need a draw from the game England/Croatia.