We have a NBA RIOT in DETROIT! (The 2004 Palace Fight)

[SirFozzie]

Low Res video of the fight . Please do not share outside this board.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Stephen A. Smith has the best idea I've heard yet ... the NBA should hand out punishment based on what happened on the court and not one thing about the rest.

Detroit got punked on the court & Ben Wallace & their fans couldn't deal with it.

Yeah. Make them watch him host Dream Job.

EXTRA

I think that is a horrible idea, by the way. Whats to stop guys from going into the crowd whenever something happens and taking business into their own hands. Talk about HORRIBLE precident.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Yeah. Make them watch him host Dream Job.

Now THERE'S a punishment

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by stevew

Nobody cares about Kobe anymore. He will quickly be supplanted by Lebron James as the premeire guard/small forward in the league.

I see this country is still naive

[JonInMiddleGA]

Some different clips being shown now on ESPNews, and it's getting tough for me to keep things in chronological order.

I'm pretty solid on the Artest foul then Wallace shove then Artest on the scorer's table then beer on Artest ... and from the repeated clips, it looks like the next thing is Artest & Jackson in the stands.

What I'm not clear about is a set of scenes that happened on the court, best I can tell they happened sometime after the stuff in the stands. It looked like Artest & a fan, and Jermaine O'Neal (?) with what looked like a slide tackle on somebody in/near that melee. When did all this stuff happen? After players came back out of the stands? Or before?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Some different clips being shown now on ESPNews, and it's getting tough for me to keep things in chronological order.

I'm pretty solid on the Artest foul then Wallace shove then Artest on the scorer's table then beer on Artest ... and from the repeated clips, it looks like the next thing is Artest & Jackson in the stands.

What I'm not clear about is a set of scenes that happened on the court, best I can tell they happened sometime after the stuff in the stands. It looked like Artest & a fan, and Jermaine O'Neal (?) with what looked like a slide tackle on somebody in/near that melee. When did all this stuff happen? After players came back out of the stands? Or before?

I think some people got up because the Pacers charged into the stands. This is understandable that if you're in the front you have to be able to move and get out of the way. But now you're on the court. They kept jabbing on the court, and they got attacked. It's within reason to assume they're idiots for being on there. Security was no where to be seen as this unfolded, so random fans are on the court. I think this is what caused the court malay.

[INDalltheway]

The guy Jackson hit in the stands threw a beer right in Artest's face! That was pretty shitty. The problem I have with the situation is Wallace attacking Artest in the neck, and face area. That is punk-like. He didn't even fight back, he was away from the conflict the best he could. I also noticed that just after Wallace threw what he threw at Artest, the fan threw the beer. 20+ games is just stupid, and I disagree with you guys that think Artest and Jackson should be gone that long. Self defense, even though it was taken too far, it was still self defense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Whats to stop guys from going into the crowd whenever something happens and taking business into their own hands. Talk about HORRIBLE precident.

I believe that's what we've come to -- fans have crossed a line that should never be crossed. And I don't believe we should ask, not for one minute, athletes no matter how much they make nor how jealous the average schmuck is of that, to simply be targets. And if there's not something done to bring the fans back in line p.d.q., we're only going to see it get worse.

There's no shortage of asshole athletes, but their numbers pale in comparison to the number of idiot fans I've encountered over the years.

Also, Mike Tirico makes a great point -- let's bring it down to real life, if somebody throws a beer on you as you're walking through Times Square, how are you going to react?

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

The guy Jackson hit in the stands threw a beer right in Artest's face! That was pretty shitty. The problem I have with the situation is Wallace attacking Artest in the neck, and face area. That is punk-like. He didn't even fight back, he was away from the conflict the best he could. I also noticed that just after Wallace threw what he threw at Artest, the fan threw the beer. 20+ games is just stupid, and I disagree with you guys that think Artest and Jackson should be gone that long. Self defense, even though it was taken too far, it was still self defense.

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Also, Mike Tirico makes a great point -- let's bring it down to real life, if somebody throws a beer on you as you're walking through Times Square, how are you going to react?

You probably will end up going to jail, along with the guy throwing the beer on you. I understand the want to get back at the guy, but it doesn't give you a free pass to do what you want.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Security was no where to be seen as this unfolded, so random fans are on the court. I think this is what caused the court malay.

Without seeing all the footage from all the angles, I sure wouldn't want to swear to this but ... there looked like a good number of security personnel (guys in blue jackets?) in various places in the stands (because of the melee there). Slow to get there perhaps, but start showing up late in the sequence. If that's the case though, they really can't be in two places at the same time, so there's probably no way they could keep fans off the court moments later.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I believe that's what we've come to -- fans have crossed a line that should never be crossed. And I don't believe we should ask, not for one minute, athletes no matter how much they make nor how jealous the average schmuck is of that, to simply be targets. And if there's not something done to bring the fans back in line p.d.q., we're only going to see it get worse.

There's no shortage of asshole athletes, but their numbers pale in comparison to the number of idiot fans I've encountered over the years.

Also, Mike Tirico makes a great point -- let's bring it down to real life, if somebody throws a beer on you as you're walking through Times Square, how are you going to react?

Okay, so when Joe Blow fan takes off his chains or has his rings on and decides he'll start shit with someone so they can come in the stands and he can just pummel them like a pussy, he won't be held accountable because hes defending himself?

doesn't mean he has to be the guy who started it, but he surely can say he was defending himself from a crazed 6'7, 250 lbs guy bumrushing into the crowd.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

How do you know that guy wasnt calling him a "fucking n*gger" or some shit like that. The dude that ended up getting attacked was definately appearing to be talking some shit.

[CHEMICAL SOLDIER]

Im disgusted by the fans. Totally classless on their part. I cant believe they would do such a thing. The death of fan/player interaction.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Without seeing all the footage from all the angles, I sure wouldn't want to swear to this but ... there looked like a good number of security personnel (guys in blue jackets?) in various places in the stands (because of the melee there). Slow to get there perhaps, but start showing up late in the sequence. If that's the case though, they really can't be in two places at the same time, so there's probably no way they could keep fans off the court moments later.

Having been to the Palace numerous times, I can honestly say security is good in the upper rows, but as you get lower, they normally float around the exits/entrances to stop people from getting into someone elses seat. But really, this is something that you can ever expect will happen, and now that it did, it'll be rectified.

though you would've thought that after the Malone incident in the Finals they'd have knew something might've happened.

[SirFozzie]

I won't even dignify pooryorick's twaddle except to say.

Do you think I LIKE being remembered on this board as the guy who went spazzoid over the Sox losing in Game 7 and did physical damage to myself, punching a tree in rage?

the rest of the bullshit.. don't know what you're smoking, man, but do you know that it's likely a controlled substance?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

You can't. You get hit with a liquid substance? Unless it's Peter North creating the shower, if you are making millions, then you let the local law authorities handle it. You're heading to the showers in the next couple of minutes anyway. Artest is already on the hot seat for asking for time off to promote a rap album. It appears he'll have all the time he wants after this.

He was hit with a beer. Big whoop. I've never known a beer to draw blood.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by stevew

How do you know that guy wasnt calling him a "fucking n*gger" or some shit like that. The dude that ended up getting attacked was definately appearing to be talking some shit.

I played hockey with a black kid and I heard it all the time. But you know what, so had he. Sadly, he even told me he couldn't do anything about it and just ignored it. It happens everywhere he said, and at first he'd react but he kept getting penalized.

Do I agree with it? Absolutely not.
Does it happen all the time? Absolutely.

[dacman]

Your mama jokes? If only they were that tame.

I've seen things like: 1 guy tossing an individual kernal of popcorn every 10 seconds or so at a player.

Another guy obviously drunk calling my black teammate a f'n n***er every chance he could. Hell screaming it would be more accurate.

Another guy shooting water through his teeth at the players and coaches.

A kid (probably 12 or so) throwing a loose ball that got into the second row as hard as he could at a teammate sitting on the bench with his back to him and hitting him in the neck/lower head.

Having water/beer/other liquid thrown at us while entering/leaving the court. Profanity tirades. You name it.

And that was just Indiana HIGH SCHOOL basketball 10 years ago. I'm sure these kinds of things happen in the NBA to visiting teams.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

Okay, so when Joe Blow fan takes off his chains or has his rings on and decides he'll start shit with someone so they can come in the stands and he can just pummel them like a pussy, he won't be held accountable because hes defending himself?

doesn't mean he has to be the guy who started it, but he surely can say he was defending himself from a crazed 6'7, 250 lbs guy bumrushing into the crowd.

In the NFL, there's generally (except for the end zones in some places) a good bit of distance to cover between fans & players.
In MLB, there's both distance & some physical restraints (foul screen, walls, dugout roofs, etc)
In the NHL, there's quite a bit of glass/plexiglass.
In the NBA, there's ... well, umm ...

I'm really surprised how much of my thoughts are being echoed in near real-time by the crew on ESPN-- while I'm typing this, they cover the need
to move the f'n fans back from the players.

[GoldenEagle]

I stand corrected, it was O'Neil who got his ass whipped by the short white fat guy. Artest has a law suit coming.

ESPN - "Blame this one on the fans"

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by cartman

You can't. You get hit with a liquid substance? Unless it's Peter North creating the shower, if you are making millions, then you let the local law authorities handle it. You're heading to the showers in the next couple of minutes anyway. Artest is already on the hot seat for asking for time off to promote a rap album. It appears he'll have all the time he wants after this.

He was hit with a beer. Big whoop. I've never known a beer to draw blood.

lmao. Peter North line. Classic.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I won't even dignify pooryorick's twaddle except to say.

Do you think I LIKE being remembered on this board as the guy who went spazzoid over the Sox losing in Game 7 and did physical damage to myself, punching a tree in rage?

the rest of the bullshit.. don't know what you're smoking, man, but do you know that it's likely a controlled substance?

You punched a tree after Boone went yard last year? That is funny as hell.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

But thats the thing. Artest, from accounts of people there, hit the wrong guy. So if this is true, how can you justify it?

Exactly why you can't allow the athletes to go into the stands - its been reported locally and by Jim Gray (not that he's all that credible) that Artest did hit the wrong guy - the guy on the floor I really have no problem with getting punched by Artest and then O'Neal because he had no place on the floor but there is no reason players should be in the stands and the NBA needs to come down hard on Artest and Jackson for doing so. The fans should be in the stands, the players on the court and neither one has any business going any place else.

IF you say that its ok for the player to go into the stands to punch someone you are setting a very dangerous precedent. The fans are dead wrong for throwing anything and even more so for being on the court but you cannot let the players be the ones taking the law into their own hands - thats the job for arena security and police.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In the NFL, there's generally (except for the end zones in some places) a good bit of distance to cover between fans & players.
In MLB, there's both distance & some physical restraints (foul screen, walls, dugout roofs, etc)
In the NHL, there's quite a bit of glass/plexiglass.
In the NBA, there's ... well, umm ...

I'm really surprised how much of my thoughts are being echoed in near real-time by the crew on ESPN-- while I'm typing this, they cover the need
to move the f'n fans back from the players.

See I agree with you there. The NBA needs to do something, because these people are way too close.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

I have NO idea why Artest went into the crowd though.

I didn't see anything thrown.

Did anyone else?

Perhaps he was handing out copies of his rap album?

(I'm just a few posts in when I post this, so I figure someone already kicked this one through the goalposts before me )

CR

[The_herd]

Wow, I didn't see the chair thrown at J. O'Neil until just now...

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Exactly why you can't allow the athletes to go into the stands - its been reported locally and by Jim Gray (not that he's all that credible) that Artest did hit the wrong guy - the guy on the floor I really have no problem with getting punched by Artest and then O'Neal because he had no place on the floor but there is no reason players should be in the stands and the NBA needs to come down hard on Artest and Jackson for doing so. The fans should be in the stands, the players on the court and neither one has any business going any place else.

IF you say that its ok for the player to go into the stands to punch someone you are setting a very dangerous precedent. The fans are dead wrong for throwing anything and even more so for being on the court but you cannot let the players be the ones taking the law into their own hands - thats the job for arena security and police.

Yup.

But this same thing happened, what, two years ago in Portland? Obviously the league didn't learn their lesson then.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by stevew

How do you know that guy wasnt calling him a "fucking n*gger" or some shit like that. The dude that ended up getting attacked was definately appearing to be talking some shit.

Talking shit to someone does not give them the right to attack you. If the fan Artest went after is the wrong one, he should be put in jail.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by stevew

You punched a tree after Boone went yard last year? That is funny as hell.

Yup. Right after the homer, I stormed out of the house, drove a while, got out, and blew off steam by punching a tree. You can look the threads in question up.

At least I turned down my fanaticism of sports after that, (trust me, splinters in the hand for weeks is a good reminder).

Who knows, if it wasn't for that, I might be an idiot fan myself.. or I probably already was an idiot fan.

[cartman]

In English soccer, Eric Cantona got a pretty severe fine for going into the stands and doing his "kung fu kick" on a fan that was giving him grief.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.

I dunno why that ought to matter. They're regular people, just like NBA players.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Yup. Right after the homer, I stormed out of the house, drove a while, got out, and blew off steam by punching a tree. You can look the threads in question up.

At least I turned down my fanaticism of sports after that, (trust me, splinters in the hand for weeks is a good reminder).

Who knows, if it wasn't for that, I might be an idiot fan myself.. or I probably already was an idiot fan.

Fozz, it's cool. When Michigan was losing to MSU badly a few weeks back broke a sega genises controller. Thankfully I never used it. Soon after I found a hacky sack that has relieved much anger.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

IF you say that its ok for the player to go into the stands to punch someone you are setting a very dangerous precedent.

And I'm convinced that if the focus is on punishing the players then it's just a matter of time, a short time, before we get an American version of the Steffi Graf incident.

And if nobody else -- not the leagues, not the teams, not the arenas, nobody period -- is willing or able to protect them, then they don't have much choice but to defend themselves.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Interesting to see Larry Brown's comments, which included a comment that he thought his players should have gone into the crowd to protect Artest & Jackson.

And he's right.

If an arena can cut off beer sales at a Metallica concert at 8:50pm (Metallica didn't appear on stage until nearly 9 pm), then there's no reason the NBA, MLB, et al can't do the same thing.

JIMGA's right on the money here. Being a drunken idiot who decides to make one's self part of the action doesnt entitle you to some protection from enraging people - the classless fans deserve what they get.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Very interesting ... Jim Grey noting that at least one or two of the fans involved as combatants were wearing credentials.

Jim Grey carries absolutely zero credibility with me, after his Pete Rose stunt at the All Star game a couple of years ago. He could have been the announcer at the Red Sox World Series sweep, and I would have waited for independant confirmation.

[GoldenEagle]

This reminds me of a fight at my high school basketball game. It was between two rival teams and had just about everything that went on tonight, minus the beer. I think there was something like 100 suspensions from that one incident.

[SirFozzie]

Thanks DeToxRoxDVHStyle, but it's a good reminder that I scared the crap out of a bunch of folks (including my parents) when I stormed out of the house, without saying a word, and just went peeling out.

As I keep saying, there's a line between fan and fanatic, and you don't know which side you're on until you're way over the line.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by cartman

Jim Grey carries absolutely zero credibility with me, after his Pete Rose stunt at the All Star game a couple of years ago. He could have been the announcer at the Red Sox World Series sweep, and I would have waited for independant confirmation.

on fire.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

I dunno why that ought to matter. They're regular people, just like NBA players.

Well, among other things, it raises serious questions about the people that are being credentialed. (The most notable one is the large guy in the gray sweatshirt that sucker punches Artest near the aisle)

edit to correct: The victim of the sucker punch was Jones, not Artest.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Yup. Right after the homer, I stormed out of the house, drove a while, got out, and blew off steam by punching a tree. You can look the threads in question up.

At least I turned down my fanaticism of sports after that, (trust me, splinters in the hand for weeks is a good reminder).

Who knows, if it wasn't for that, I might be an idiot fan myself.. or I probably already was an idiot fan.

Man, and i dont mean to laugh, but that is funny as hell. I remember being pretty darn pissed when Mitch Williams served cheese up to Joe Carter in the World Series, but i didnt hit a tree. I guess i just knew when Williams came in that the game was over. Thanks for the laugh tho, its been a pretty hard day.

[GoldenEagle]

But they will not do the same becuase beer makes $$$$

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm convinced that if the focus is on punishing the players then it's just a matter of time, a short time, before we get an American version of the Steffi Graf incident.

And if nobody else -- not the leagues, not the teams, not the arenas, nobody period -- is willing or able to protect them, then they don't have much choice but to defend themselves.

Dont you mean Monica Seles?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

This reminds me of a fight at my high school basketball game. It was between two rival teams and had just about everything that went on tonight, minus the beer. I think there was something like 100 suspensions from that one incident.

LOL, I don't believe I remember any suspensions, but HS basketball games are by far the most violent & most dangerous sports incidents I've ever personally been around.

Of course, most of those involved referees

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Dont you mean Monica Seles?

Eh, it's late. And I ain't exactly the world's biggest tennis fan.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by stevew

Man, and i dont mean to laugh, but that is funny as hell. I remember being pretty darn pissed when Mitch Williams served cheese up to Joe Carter in the World Series, but i didnt hit a tree. I guess i just knew when Williams came in that the game was over. Thanks for the laugh tho, its been a pretty hard day.

I'm glad my stupidity amuses you

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, among other things, it raises serious questions about the people that are being credentialed. (The most notable one is the large guy in the gray sweatshirt that sucker punches Artest near the aisle)

credientaled people are on football sidelines all the time. whats not to stop them from running onto the field?

so why are they there? probably the same reason that guy was at the piston game, you don't expect this to happen.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

What I'm not enjoying is the ESPN commentators talking about how the fans should be thrown in jail and how the players have so much pent up rage and aggression hearing taunts from the fans....what a bunch of crap. Yeah, the guy who works on the assembly line 50 hours a week doing the same thing over and over...no way he has any pent up aggression. Only these NBA players who make millions playing a game are the ones frustrated because some jackass in the fifth row says his momma is fat.

Nice job ESPN - way to lay ZERO blame on the players involved. The fans who participated in throwing stuff or worse going onto the floor deserve to be held responsible for their actions but so do the players - even if they do have all this built up aggression from their stressful lives and jobs

Oh spare me- your letting your disdain for NBA players get in the way of your judgement. Tell you what Gary- let me come to where you work coding TPB 2005, throw beer on you, and scream bloody murder when you get up to do something about it. Why the hell does their salary not entitle them to human emotions ? Is he supposed not to get angry because he makes more money than you ?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm convinced that if the focus is on punishing the players then it's just a matter of time, a short time, before we get an American version of the Steffi Graf incident.

And if nobody else -- not the leagues, not the teams, not the arenas, nobody period -- is willing or able to protect them, then they don't have much choice but to defend themselves.

That is what the police are for JIMGA - dude gets drunk and idiotic and lobs a beer at a player the police arrest him and take him down to the pokey - end of situation. Idiot player charges into the stands and starts swinging and now the problem is magnified 100 times.

What did Artest have to defend himself from? What Wallace did to him was worse than getting hit by a plastic cup of beer yet he didn't have any desire to fight Ben. One problem with spectator sports is that the participants are NEVER truly safe from a spectator that wishes to cause them harm. Justifying players going into the crowd to fight spectators will not change the fact that some day a fan could cause great bodily harm to a player - it only endangers the fans who have and want nothing to do with an altercation.