The Rose Bowl

[korme]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

I dislike Bush.

How can you, honestly? Best college player I have ever seen.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Probably tradition, but I think the Heisman is an award that isn't and shouldn't be all about stats. There are no qualifications of the award except "most outstanding college football player". Young probably would have won after tonight...but I don't think you could argue against Reggie Bush either...even after tonight.

I wasn't necessarily saying Young should have won but it should have been a closer race. It just seemed like everybody (i.e. ESPN) torched Vince Young for not matching the performance of Bush vs Fresno St. (I believe it was the A&M game). If the Heisman were held after the bowls, I'd say Young's performance in the Rose Bowl tops Bush's performance against Fresno St. and the vote would have definately been closer. I'd expect Leinart to have lost more votes to Young if this were the case.

[sooner333]

VY proved so much to me this game. All season I had been a VY-doubter. I simply did not beleive he could have gotten that much better...especially when he never fixed his throwing motion. I always thought he could be contained in the pocket and never do the right thing. I saw him against OU throw looping passes into gaping holes in our inexperienced secondary and didn't think much of it, as he also was stopped to below 50 yards rushing. I saw him against A&M overthrow recievers where a good defense would have picked him off. Now, Texas does have a great line, and USC couldn't get the pressure, but I saw him make great reads, take off only when he needed to or when they called it, and do so effortlessly. He didn't make many of his bad decisions. I finally think VY can be an NFL QB...he is really a beast out there.

[korme]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Hell, he's a better player than Vick will ever be right now.

Lions need to trade up for him.

Young is a great college player. I just don't know if he'll be an outstanding NFL QB. I hope he will be, because he's spectacular to watch, just sayin'.

[mtolson]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Young is a great college player. I just don't know if he'll be an outstanding NFL QB. I hope he will be, because he's spectacular to watch, just sayin'.

I agree. Somehow, as great as VY's performance was all night I kept thinking to myself how badly USC tackled and the fact the on just about every pass he completed the ball was going to a receiver that was at least 4 yards away from a USC defender.

One thing I found real odd is how Reggie Bush basically disappeared on the next to last drive where they failed the 4th down attempt. White was in on every play. Hell, I would have thought they put Bush in for deception alone along with White.

And why in the hell do you call a timeout on a extra point attempt. They had a snowballs chance in hell to stoping him. The way they were tackling, the were better off giving them the 2 points, saveing the timeout and going for the tie. The timeout was needed much more then stoping the 2 point conversion.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

Young is a great college player. I just don't know if he'll be an outstanding NFL QB. I hope he will be, because he's spectacular to watch, just sayin'.

Yeah, great in college certainly doesn't translate to great in the pros...I certainly don't think Vick is a great NFL quarterback unless he runs (which he is too stubborn to do as much anymore). However, I think Young will be better than Vick at least, and could be a good NFL QB, but its such a crapshoot (think of how many NFL starters went to smaller schools...its a lot more than you think).

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

How can you, honestly? Best college player I have ever seen.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Jeeber was, in fact, referring to the second to last play where Bush got down to the Texas 40 yard-line. He meant it as in "He makes me frightened"

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by mauboy1

JESUS! LATERAL WORKS! Touchdown!

Was he down?

Not only was he down, I think there was a 50/50 chance it was an illegal forward pass (although I don't know if there would have been a camera angle to review that aspect of the play).

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Not only was he down, I think there was a 50/50 chance it was an illegal forward pass (although I don't know if there would have been a camera angle to review that aspect of the play).

Vince's lateral was quite clearly a legal lateral on the replays.

[mtolson]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Vince's lateral was quite clearly a legal lateral on the replays.

May have been legal, but he surely was down.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by mtolson

May have been legal, but he surely was down.

I was about to edit that. THere is zero doubt his knee was down, but there is also zero doubt the lateral itself was a legit lateral. I don't think that call was that big a deal in the course of the game anyway, since it would have just been 1st and goal from the 10 (?). they were really rolling.

I think the bad calls evened out. Both teams had a number of missed opportunites.

[mtolson]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I was about to edit that. THere is zero doubt his knee was down, but there is also zero doubt the lateral itself was a legit lateral. I don't think that call was that big a deal in the course of the game anyway, since it would have just been 1st and goal from the 10 (?). they were really rolling.

I think the bad calls evened out. Both teams had a number of missed opportunites.

I agree, the rate things were going they would have scored about 3 plays later baring a turnover.

[mtolson]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I was about to edit that. THere is zero doubt his knee was down, but there is also zero doubt the lateral itself was a legit lateral. I don't think that call was that big a deal in the course of the game anyway, since it would have just been 1st and goal from the 10 (?). they were really rolling.

I think the bad calls evened out. Both teams had a number of missed opportunites.

It was kind of funny when they showed the replay officials after the break who appeared to be looking at the monitor and shaking there heads in disbelief like they had realized the mistake.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by mtolson

I was kind of runny when they showed the replay officials after the break who appears to be looking at the monitor and shaking there heads in disbelief like they had realized the mistake.

Keith Jackson said something later in the game like there was a malfunction that didn't allow them to replay it. Then again, Keith Jackson is senile and can't pronounce names correctly, so who knows what he meant.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I'm pretty sure the ball clearly lands forward of the spot he released it.

Now what is the college rule on an illegal forward pass? In the NFL that would have been an illegal pass, USC would have been peanlized, but would have retained posession. Does it differe in college? Anyone?

I dunno if anyone else has looked it up in the next two pages, but...
...if it's ruled an illegal forward pass, then SC retains possession and the five yard penalty from the spot of the foul is enforced -- rule 7-3, article 7-A. I wonder if they might rule it a fumble instead of a forward pass?

Playing rules available here: http://www2.ncaa.org/media_and_event...les/index.html

[Mr. Wednesday]

Dola, here's the definition of a fumble:

Fumble
ARTICLE 1. A fumble is any act other than passing, kicking or successful handing that results in loss of player possession (A.R. 2-19-2-I, A.R. 4-1-3-I and A.R. 7-2-2-I).

[mckerney]

It was a fantastic game and I was happy with the result both because I was rooting for a Texas win and it was nice not to see USC match Minnesota's 3 consecutive championships.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Oops, I poked around a little further. "Lateral" appears once in the rules, referring to positioning of an official and not a backward pass. "Backward pass" is pretty fruitful, though... we come upon this interpretation on p. 170 which appears to cover the exact situation that occurred:

A Team A runner attempts a backward pass that is ruled forward and
illegal. The pass strikes the ground. RULING: Penalty—Five yards
from the spot where the pass was thrown and, unless thrown after a
change of team possession, the scrimmage down counts (7-3-2-a).

[LionsFan10]

I'd like to see what all the ESPN analysts have to say now about the 2005 USC Trojans, and them beating all up on every great team in the last 30 years. I bet their story has changed a bit, thank God for the Longhorns.

[Ragone]

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

How can you, honestly? Best college player I have ever seen.

Thats the key statement right there.. Bush will be an AVERAGE pro player.. at best.. whats his posistion?

Rb.. I really don't think he's a 20+ carry a game back, Everytime i've seen him take a big hit he's either a. Fumbled.. or B. Had to come out for a few plays

Wr.. Perhaps but doesn't have the ideal size you'd want out of a 1st round wr

Honestly, i feel Bush is going to be a better version of Dante Hall

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Ragone

Thats the key statement right there.. Bush will be an AVERAGE pro player.. at best.. whats his posistion?

Rb.. I really don't think he's a 20+ carry a game back, Everytime i've seen him take a big hit he's either a. Fumbled.. or B. Had to come out for a few plays

Wr.. Perhaps but doesn't have the ideal size you'd want out of a 1st round wr

Honestly, i feel Bush is going to be a better version of Dante Hall

Huh? The guy has had 1 fumble all season, minus the lateral tonight.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Yep...I was talking with my wife about how Young would do against a FSU, Miami or VT defense since those teams have more experience in handling mobile quarterbacks, but by the end of the night I strongly believe that no defense could have done anything to slow him down.

Believe it or not, last year Oklahoma shut out Texas (the first time any team did so in about 40 years). You need great defensive talent to go up against Vince Young, and this year the OU defense was no match for him.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

Believe it or not, last year Oklahoma shut out Texas (the first time any team did so in about 40 years). You need great defensive talent to go up against Vince Young, and this year the OU defense was no match for him.

Not quite 40 years. The last time was 1980.

That was also the game before the famous talk between VY and Coach Brown, where they cleared the air and took the reins off of VY and let him loose.

[cartman]

dola,

I just got back from downtown Austin, where it is still a madhouse. Evidently they are having to send police out to the airport, because there is a huge group out there waiting for the plane to arrive. I can't believe I forgot my camera, to snap some pics of the tower lit up in burnt orange, with the lights in the offices on the side lit up in a pattern of 1s.

[Ragone]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Huh? The guy has had 1 fumble all season, minus the lateral tonight.

one lost fumble.. i am fairly certain he's had several recovered by his own team

[Ben E Lou]

Just watched the Young pitch.

1. It wasn't "clearly" a lateral by any means. It was dadgum close. From watching it six or seven times, I can't say conclusively.
2. The ball would have been spotted just outside the 10 had it been reviewed, first down Texas. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that there's very little chance Southern Cal stops them from scoring a TD there.

Still, great thought by VY on that play. I love it when the playground gets taken to the big stage.

Great game. Loved watching VY. Exciting player.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Still, great thought by VY on that play. I love it when the playground gets taken to the big stage.

Oh, absolutely. Stuff like that makes for some of the truly great sports moments. I think Youngs lateral play was that much more exciting having seen the disaster of the Reggie Bush play only a few minutes earlier. It was as if he was showing him how it was done.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by cartman

Not quite 40 years. The last time was 1980.

OK, I stand corrected. I didn't look it up in the record books, and I was wrong. In 2004, OU shutout Texas, the first time that any team had done so in 24 years.

[Raiders Army]

Great, great game. Pete Carroll showed a lot of class after the game when he said, "it's their night."

Leinart on the other hand said, "I still think we're the better team." STFU and go to New Orleans you crybaby. I'm also laughing at the Heisman voters.

[WSUCougar]

Fantastic game. A couple comments:

1. Texas won the game and deserves to celebrate their championship, but I personally think neither can claim to be "the better team." That was a fierce struggle between two very talented squads that obviously could have ended either way. Play 'em 10 times and you might split it 5/5.

2. I think the biggest reason USC lost was that on virtually every defensive play their DEs blew too far up the field, opening up avenues for Vince Young to exploit. I kept asking Pete Carroll why he didn't make an adjustment to contain, especially on the right (defense's left), but he never answered me. On the final, last-second TD - how on earth can you let Young run to the right like that?

3. Young had one of the most dominant games by a college player I've ever seen. Wow.

4. Leann Rimes' has a pretty voice, but her version of the national anthem was painful at times. Is it really THAT difficult a song to sing?

5. Dear ABC: Next time, show more USC cheerleaders and less of Matt Leinart's dad. Thanks.

[govols]

Was it just me for was that the most bias announcing of a game ever?

I am not a fan of either team but Keith Jackson and Dan Fouts should not have been announcing that game if they are such big fans of USC. You could tell the were just jumping for joy everytime USC made a play. It sounded like I was watching USC TV instead of ABC.

[WSUCougar]

Perhaps a slight angle that way, but both are Pac-10 guys who call games on the west coast all year. Their familiarity was with USC. But I thought it much more balanced than you apparently did.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

2. I think the biggest reason USC lost was that on virtually every defensive play their DEs blew too far up the field, opening up avenues for Vince Young to exploit.

Not just up the field, but they bit to the inside on the option on a regular basis, too. If you're Southern Cal, you've got to have your DE's in containment, particularly considering Young's size and the difficulty that the LB's and DB's were having just bringing him down.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by govols

Was it just me for was that the most bias announcing of a game ever?

I am not a fan of either team but Keith Jackson and Dan Fouts should not have been announcing that game if they are such big fans of USC. You could tell the were just jumping for joy everytime USC made a play. It sounded like I was watching USC TV instead of ABC.

I am with Cougar. I didn't think it was that biased at all. I never got that sense of things.

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by govols

Was it just me for was that the most bias announcing of a game ever?

I am not a fan of either team but Keith Jackson and Dan Fouts should not have been announcing that game if they are such big fans of USC. You could tell the were just jumping for joy everytime USC made a play. It sounded like I was watching USC TV instead of ABC.

Same here. But TV announcers are that way every time there is a dominant team playing. Too bad for the announcers that USC lost. Remember the Miami teams and how the guys calling that game vs OSU had an orgasm every time the Hurricanes touched the ball? But I know exactly what your saying.

[tarcone]

lienart and bush went into the Texas lockerroom after the game to congratulate the longhorns
there is the classy move that should overshadow the we are better comments

[Honolulu_Blue]

A few observations:

1. All season long I thought Vince Young was the best player in college. When it finally came around the Heisman time, I figured people were right about Reggie Bush given the landslide. I just didn't see Bush play enough to know. From what I saw he is an amazing player, dangerous each time he touches the ball, but I stand by my original thought: Vince Young is the best player in college.

2. I am still not convinced that Vince Young will succeed in the pro game. Despite his dominance over the last few games, I just don't see it. He has a great completion percentage, but I have rarely seen him complete too many passes where his WR isn't wide open by a few yards. His passes seem to lack any sort of zip and he has that odd throwing motion. He has great speed and elusiveness, but Pro-level defensive players will be faster, bigger, and better tacklers than what he faced in college. He wont make almost everyone around him look like a smurf wading through pudding.

3. USC seemed to be a little cock when things opened up, like they had already bought into their own legend. There was that ill-advised Bush lateral. The 4th down sneak by Leinart. They seemed to re-focus in the second half (which appears to have been their MO for much of the season), but I feel they had a bit of chance to really put the screws to UT early on and failed to do so.

It was a great game. A near perfect national championship game. Almost all of the great players in it played a great game.

Good times.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

A bad defense? Are you high?

USC ranked #35 in the NCAA this year in overall defense (out of 117 teams) giving up 344.7 YPG. They were #23 in rush defense at 117.3 YPG and #38 in pass efficiency defense at 117.7 rating. You can say that this wasn't an outstanding defense, but to say it was bad? Major hyperbole.

Here are some more numbers to chew on:
USC offense this year - 50.0 PPG (#2), 580.3 YPG (#1)
Texas offense this year - 50.9 PPG (#1), 508.4 YPG (#3)
USC defense this year - 21.3 PPG (#27), 344.7 YPG (#35)
Texas defense this year - 14.6 PPG (#5), 280.3 YPG (#5)

Now tell me this - was the Texas defense that much better than the USC defense tonight? The numbers suggest it's a lot closer than you seem to imply, unless you also think the Longhorn's defense is "bad".

And maybe, just maybe, the difference in defensive numbers between teams in the Pac-10 and Big-12 has as much to do with the potency of the offenses in the Pac-10 as compared to Big-12 offenses...?

USC's defense is not good. If you can't see the correlation between great offense and the position that puts your defense in 95% of the time, then you don't understand football. When the games are close, the defense has done little to nothing to win games for that team. The offense has been forced to outscore the opponents. Look at how many times they've had to come back to win. The defense put them in that position; the offense bailed them out.

The fact that they pad stats in 50 point blowouts because by the 5 minute mark of the 1st quarter the other team has to resort to passing the ball 50 times a game or simply puts in its subs, doesn't demonstrate that their defense is anything more than average, at very best.

And I don't think Texas' defense is all that great either, but the difference for me is that they showed up in the biggest games of the year prior to tonight, and they took on a legitimately great offense and still prevailed, whereas USC couldn't stop the one guy they needed to in order to win. I think Texas' D had the far greater challenge in trying to stop a half-dozen great players, as opposed to one or two.

[Ksyrup]

I didn't think the announcing was all that biased, but maybe that's because (a) I recognized that Keith Jackson and Dan Fouts are obvious West Coasters; and (b) I was so numb from having to listen to Brent Musberger that I appreciated the good job they did, regardless of bias.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by tarcone

lienart and bush went into the Texas lockerroom after the game to congratulate the longhorns
there is the classy move that should overshadow the we are better comments

I went to sleep before that. I sit corrected.

Damn East Coast timezone. *grumble*

[bob]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Keith Jackson said something later in the game like there was a malfunction that didn't allow them to replay it. Then again, Keith Jackson is senile and can't pronounce names correctly, so who knows what he meant.

There was a malfunction with replay during the Michigan - Nebraska game too, which caused Michigan to use a timeout to get a play reviewed.

I think they need to replace the buzzer system with a flare gun.

[bob]

Can anyone answer why USC used their last timeout right before the 2pt conversion? I couldn't hear the announcers b/c people were going crazy after the score.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by bob

I think they need to replace the buzzer system with a flare gun.

Given enough firepower, that could make games in domes a good bit more interesting.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by bob

Can anyone answer why USC used their last timeout right before the 2pt conversion? I couldn't hear the announcers b/c people were going crazy after the score.

I think Pete Carroll said they had a personnel problem with the defense on the conversion.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I think Pete Carroll said they had a personnel problem with the defense on the conversion.

Pete looked either upset (as in he didn't call the TO) or confused. IIRC the defense was shuffling around late - I think one of the linebackers came in late, so they may not have had enough players on the field. Either way, they looked unprepared for the 2 point conversion. I still would have saved the TO, but I'm not sure Pete actually called it (I think it was one of the defenders).

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by govols

Was it just me for was that the most bias announcing of a game ever?

I am not a fan of either team but Keith Jackson and Dan Fouts should not have been announcing that game if they are such big fans of USC. You could tell the were just jumping for joy everytime USC made a play. It sounded like I was watching USC TV instead of ABC.

I didn't find it to be that biased, but good lord Keith needs to hang up his cleats. He was a great broadcaster, but now he can't see the field ... misplays calls all the time, makes mind numbing comments, and several times was babbling on as it cut to commercials.

Almost as painful as watching Dick Clark on New Years Eve.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by govols

Was it just me for was that the most bias announcing of a game ever?

Jackson is a Pac-Ten homer. I've never seen such blatant partisanship as his telecasts of the Rose Bowl and Holiday Bowl.

Having said that, I love the guy. He's Mr. College Football.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

2. On the final, last-second TD - how on earth can you let Young run to the right like that?

Totally agree. You have to bring the house and make it so where there's nowhere to run. Make him beat you throwing it. If he beats you throwing it, so be it, but don't let him walk into the frickin' end zone!

[albionmoonlight]

The best compliment that I can give Reggie Bush (and I am not even being sarcastic here) is when Dan Fouts compared him early on to Walter Payton, and I said to myself, "having just watched Bush run, I don't that that comparison was 100% off base."

I think that Bush, with the right coaching, has the ability to be the next Marshall Faulk. Which means that I think that you need to take him #1 overall in the draft. (Not a great revelation, I know, but it was the first chance that I had to really see the guy in action with pro potential in mind).

[Kodos]

I was torn between rooting against Matt Leinart after his I don't want to be drafted by New Orleans stuff and my urge to see Texas lose and make HornsManiac unhappy. In the end, I decided to root for Texas. Fun game to watch.