Kurt Warner retires

[Schmidty]

I'm sorry, but the people that are saying that he's not a HOFer are looking for a reason for him not to be one.

I know a lot of the HOF is numbers (and his are very good), but I've always felt that it is the Hall of Fame, not just the Hall of Great Stats. He has a super numbers and achievements, but more than that - He's KURT WARNER. A great success story and a great career. Everyone knows him and his story!! If that's not fame (combined with success), I don't know what is.

People need to stop over-analyzing this. He easily deserves to be there.

[stevew]

I remember seeing the Rams play their 2nd game their SB year. They killed someone. Their offense was basically nothing I had ever seen before. And they helped me get back into football.
Some of my favorite Madden moments involve using the Warner/Faulk/Holt/Bruce tandem.

[Eaglesfan27]

I like Kurt Warner and want him to be in the HOF, but I don't think it is a slam dunk particularly when his entire career is reviewed in 5 years and not in the immediate afterglow of his career ending.

[MizzouRah]

Hall of famer, period.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm sorry, but the people that are saying that he's not a HOFer are looking for a reason for him not to be one.

I know a lot of the HOF is numbers (and his are very good), but I've always felt that it is the Hall of Fame, not just the Hall of Great Stats. He has a super numbers and achievements, but more than that - He's KURT WARNER. A great success story and a great career. Everyone knows him and his story!! If that's not fame (combined with success), I don't know what is.

People need to stop over-analyzing this. He easily deserves to be there.

If I do the knee-jerk reaction, he isn't even close for me. I give him more of the benefit of the doubt because of his story, etc. but I would never consider him a HOFer. I would consider him a top 5 QB when he was in STL but not even close the rest of his years.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Cringer

Wow, lots of guys on FOFC know Warner personally. Good to know he is such a good guy though.

Right on! And it's amazing that people have seen every one of his passes to be able to accumulate all those stats!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm sorry, but the people that are saying that he's not a HOFer are looking for a reason for him not to be one.

I know a lot of the HOF is numbers (and his are very good), but I've always felt that it is the Hall of Fame, not just the Hall of Great Stats. He has a super numbers and achievements, but more than that - He's KURT WARNER. A great success story and a great career. Everyone knows him and his story!! If that's not fame (combined with success), I don't know what is.

People need to stop over-analyzing this. He easily deserves to be there.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by rowech

If I do the knee-jerk reaction, he isn't even close for me. I give him more of the benefit of the doubt because of his story, etc. but I would never consider him a HOFer. I would consider him a top 5 QB when he was in STL but not even close the rest of his years.

Please try to make the argument that his ARI years are worse than ANY three year block that John Elway or Jim Kelly put up, to compare to recently elected QBs.

edit: If you're really feeling courageous, you can even try Troy Aikman but that's probably not fair.

[Fidatelo]

I was always annoyed by his penchant for throwing God into every sentence, but aside from that the guy is a pretty awesome story. I'd say there is something wrong with the Hall of Fame if you leave him out.

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Right on! And it's amazing that people have seen every one of his passes to be able to accumulate all those stats!

Not even close to the same thing but no big deal.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Logan

Please try to make the argument that his ARI years are worse than ANY three year block that John Elway or Jim Kelly put up, to compare to recently elected QBs.

edit: If you're really feeling courageous, you can even try Troy Aikman but that's probably not fair.

Very different eras. VERY different.

My point is the guy had 3 great seasons (STL years where he was probably the best QB in the league) and 3 good seasons (ARI years where he was probably not in the top 5 QBs in the league).

If he put up 3 years like his three in STL and if he won the Super Bowl in Arizona I'd be on board. But the game changed so much through the 2000s in terms of passing that those three seasons in Arizona, while good, aren't great seasons compared to the other QBs playing during those years.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by rowech

My point is the guy had 3 great seasons (STL years where he was probably the best QB in the league) and 3 good seasons (ARI years where he was probably not in the top 5 QBs in the league).

Then who are those top 5 QBs?

Let's take a look at passing stats of the past three seasons (31 players had 600 or more attempts). I listed Warner and all the players in front of him in selected stats categories. My source for yearly stats (regular season only) was The Football Database.

passer rating (min 600 att)
106.6 Tom Brady
98.7 Aaron Rodgers
97.7 Philip Rivers
97.7 Peyton Manning
97.6 Drew Brees
95.7-94.2 Romo, Favre, Roethlisberger, Schaub
93.6 Kurt Warner (10th)
82.9 NFL AVERAGE

passing yards
13,880 Drew Brees
12,542 Peyton Manning
12,142 Tony Romo
11,829 Brett Favre
11,753 Kurt Warner (5th)
11,689 Jay Cutler
10,955 NFL AVERAGE PER FRANCHISE

completion percentage (min 600 att)
68.0 Chad Pennington
67.5 Drew Brees
67.2 Tom Brady
67.1 Peyton Manning
67.0 Matt Schaub
66.9 Brett Favre
65.4 Kurt Warner (7th)
61.0 NFL AVERAGE

yards per attempt (min 600 att)
8.04 Tom Brady
8.03 Matt Schaub
8.02 Philip Rivers
7.99 Tony Romo
7.86 Aaron Rodgers
7.82-7.64 Roethlisberger, Brees, P.Manning
7.52 Kurt Warner (9th)
6.93 NFL AVERAGE

touchdowns
96 Drew Brees
91 Peyton Manning
88 Tony Romo
83 Philip Rivers
83 Kurt Warner (t-4th)
83 Brett Favre
65 NFL AVERAGE PER FRANCHISE

touchdown percentage (min 600 att)
6.76 Tom Brady
5.83 Philip Rivers
5.79 Tony Romo
5.55 Peyton Manning
5.44 Ben Roethlisberger
5.34-5.33 Rodgers, Brees
5.31 Kurt Warner (8th)
4.10 NFL AVERAGE

interception percentage (min 600 att)
1.42 Jeff Garcia
1.81 Aaron Rodgers
1.82 Tom Brady
1.88 Donovan McNabb
1.89 David Garrard
2.10-2.82 K.Collins, Pennington, Campbell, Orton, Rivers, Brees, P.Manning, Flacco, Schaub, Roethlisberger, Cassel, Ryan
2.88 Kurt Warner (18th)
3.01 NFL AVERAGE

touchdowns per interception (min 600 att)
3.71 Tom Brady
2.95 Aaron Rodgers
2.50 Jeff Garcia
2.37 Philip Rivers
2.29 Donovan McNabb
2.17-1.85 P.Manning, Romo, Brees, Roethlisberger, Favre, Garrard
1.84 Kurt Warner (12th)
1.36 NFL AVERAGE

sack percentage (min 600 att)
2.60 Kerry Collins
2.65 Drew Brees
2.67 Peyton Manning
3.11 Tom Brady
3.78 Derek Anderson
3.91-4.27 Ryan, Cutler
4.29 Kurt Warner (8th)
6.02 NFL AVERAGE


At the same time, it's probably more correct to not single out the last three seasons in Arizona. So, here's where Kurt Warner ranks over 2005-2009 between all the quarterbacks in the league (31 of them had 1,000 or more attempts).

passer rating (min 1000 att)
99.4 Peyton Manning
98.7 Tom Brady
97.2 Aaron Rodgers
95.9 Drew Brees
95.8 Philip Rivers
95.6-93.9 Romo, Schaub
91.9 Kurt Warner (8th)
81.9 NFL AVERGAE

passing yards
21,874 Drew Brees
20,686 Peyton Manning
19,595 Brett Favre
17,601 Eli Manning
16,919 Tom Brady
16,681-15,947 Roethlisberger, McNabb
15,843 Kurt Warner (8th)
17,955 NFL AVERAGE PER FRANCHISE

completion percentage (min 1000 att)
66.7 Peyton Manning
66.4 Drew Brees
66.3 Matt Schaub
66.3 Chad Pennington
65.1 Kurt Warner (5th)
65.0 Tom Brady
60.5 NFL AVERAGE

yards per attempt (min 1000 att)
8.10 Tony Romo
8.01 Matt Schaub
7.88 Ben Roethlisberger
7.83 Philip Rivers
7.80 Peyton Manning
7.75-7.66 Rodgers, Brady, Brees
7.53 Kurt Warner (9th)
6.88 NFL AVERAGE

touchdowns
150 Peyton Manning
146 Drew Brees
128 Tom Brady
121 Brett Favre
119 Eli Manning
110-105 Roethlisberger, Palmer, Romo, Rivers
100 Kurt Warner (10th)
105 NFL AVERAGE PER FRANCHISE

touchdown percentage (min 1000 att)
5.8 Tom Brady
5.8 Tony Romo
5.7 Peyton Manning
5.5 Philip Rivers
5.2 Ben Roethlisberger
5.2-5.0 Rodgers, Brees, Palmer
4.8 Kurt Warner (9th)
4.0 NFL AVERAGE

interception percentage (min 1000 att)
1.7 Jeff Garcia
1.8 Aaron Rodgers
2.0 Donovan McNabb
2.0 David Garrard
2.1 Tom Brady
2.3-2.8 P.Manning, Campbell, McNair, Rivers, K.Collins, Brees, Bulger, Carr, Schaub, Orton, Pennington, Cassel
2.8 Kurt Warner (18th)
3.1 NFL AVERAGE

touchdowns per interceptions (min 1000 att)
2.81 Aaron Rodgers
2.72 Tom Brady
2.46 Peyton Manning
2.33 Philip Rivers
2.28 Donovan McNabb
2.11-1.72 Garcia, Brees, Romo, Palmer, Garrard
1.69 Kurt Warner (11th)
1.32 NFL AVERAGE

sack percentage (min 1000 att)
2.79 Peyton Manning
3.19 Drew Brees
3.77 Steve McNair
3.89 Tom Brady
4.07 Derek Anderson
4.23-4.83 Favre, K.Collins, Cutler, Palmer, Garcia
4.84 Kurt Warner (11th)
6.27 NFL AVERAGE

[rowech]

Some will be disagreed with because of post-season performance and I understand that...

Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, McNabb, Rodgers, Roethlisberger

I think Warner comes in behind these guys. Manning, Brady, and Brees without question. I don't think Roethlisberger is a great QB but tough to argue with two titles. The other guys I know people will pick apart because of not having any post-season success (other than McNabb who has become his own entity as a QB)

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by rowech

Some will be disagreed with because of post-season performance and I understand that...

Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, McNabb, Rodgers, Roethlisberger

I think Warner comes in behind these guys. Manning, Brady, and Brees without question. I don't think Roethlisberger is a great QB but tough to argue with two titles. The other guys I know people will pick apart because of not having any post-season success (other than McNabb who has become his own entity as a QB)

At worst I think he would be 4th on that list in terms of QBs I would want to be on my team and I would trust all the way through the playoffs. That's considering the list includes two 1st ballot HoF QBs.

One thing not being mentioned is he was the QB who was as big of a driving force for the Cards making the SB as anybody. The Arizona freaking Cardinals. It's not like St. Louis was some top notch team when he took over either. If somebody is the driving force behind taking two different mediocre/sub par franchises to the SB and you don't think they belong in the Hall, I'm really curious as to what somebody needs to do to actually get in.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by rowech

Some will be disagreed with because of post-season performance and I understand that...

Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, McNabb, Rodgers, Roethlisberger

I think Warner comes in behind these guys. Manning, Brady, and Brees without question. I don't think Roethlisberger is a great QB but tough to argue with two titles. The other guys I know people will pick apart because of not having any post-season success (other than McNabb who has become his own entity as a QB)

Right now Warner is 3rd on that list behind only Manning and Brady. Roethlisberger and Brees should be able to pass him as well, but haven't yet. Rivers, Romo, and Rodgers, way too early to tell and not a given at all. And Mcnabb I think will always be behind Warner unless he wins the super bowl.

[MIJB#19]

Keep in mind that the stats I posted are for the 2007-2009 and for 2005-2009 regular seasons only. It doesn't reflect on post-season success. Maybe a table format works better to compare stuff (again with the 600 and 1000 attempts minimum):

2007-2009	att	cmp	pct	yds	avg	td	td%	int	int%	sack	loss	sack%	Rate
Tom Brady	1154	776	67.2	9280	8	78	6.8	21	1.8	37	214	3.1	106.6
Aaron Rodgers	1105	711	64.3	8690	7.9	59	5.3	20	1.8	87	561	7.3	98.7
Philip Rivers	1424	906	63.6	11415	8	83	5.8	35	2.5	72	481	4.8	97.7
Peyton Manning	1641	1101	67.1	12542	7.6	91	5.5	42	2.6	45	284	2.7	97.7
Drew Brees	1801	1216	67.5	13880	7.7	96	5.3	46	2.6	49	336	2.6	97.6
Tony Romo	1520	958	63	12142	8	88	5.8	42	2.8	78	495	4.9	95.7
Brett Favre	1588	1062	66.9	11829	7.4	83	5.2	44	2.8	79	553	4.7	94.7
Ben Roethlisberger	1379	882	64	10783	7.8	75	5.4	38	2.8	143	979	9.4	94.6
Matt Schaub	1252	839	67	10054	8	53	4.2	34	2.7	64	424	4.9	94.2
Kurt Warner	1562	1021	65.4	11753	7.5	83	5.3	45	2.9	70	494	4.3	93.6
Jeff Garcia	703	453	64.4	5152	7.3	25	3.6	10	1.4	42	204	5.6	92.2
Chad Pennington	810	551	68	5831	7.2	30	3.7	18	2.2	56	331	6.5	91.9
Donovan McNabb	1487	903	60.7	10793	7.3	64	4.3	28	1.9	102	640	6.4	89.4
David Garrard	1376	857	62.3	9726	7.1	48	3.5	26	1.9	105	623	7.1	87.2
Joe Flacco	927	572	61.7	6584	7.1	35	3.8	24	2.6	68	494	6.8	84.9
Eli Manning	1517	903	59.5	10595	7	71	4.7	44	2.9	84	607	5.2	84.3
Matt Ryan	885	528	59.7	6356	7.2	38	4.3	25	2.8	36	196	3.9	84.3
Carson Palmer	1170	730	62.4	7956	6.8	50	4.3	37	3.2	54	399	4.4	83.5
Jay Cutler	1638	1017	62.1	11689	7.1	72	4.4	58	3.5	73	426	4.3	83.5
Jason Campbell	1430	892	62.4	9563	6.7	45	3.1	32	2.2	102	661	6.7	83.1
Kyle Orton	1086	651	59.9	7252	6.7	42	3.9	26	2.4	58	331	5.1	82.8
Matt Hasselbeck	1259	754	59.9	8211	6.5	50	4	39	3.1	84	532	6.3	79.5
Matt Cassel	1016	602	59.3	6655	6.6	37	3.6	28	2.8	89	462	8.1	79.4
Jon Kitna	681	423	62.1	4826	7.1	23	3.4	25	3.7	66	409	8.8	79.3
Trent Edwards	826	506	61.3	5498	6.7	24	2.9	25	3	58	387	6.6	77.9
Jake Delhomme	821	479	58.3	5927	7.2	31	3.8	31	3.8	48	363	5.5	77.6
Kerry Collins	713	411	57.6	4432	6.2	18	2.5	15	2.1	19	139	2.6	75.7
Vince Young	677	412	60.9	4644	6.9	20	3	26	3.8	37	206	5.2	75.2
Marc Bulger	1065	612	57.5	6581	6.2	27	2.5	34	3.2	89	617	7.7	70.9
Derek Anderson	992	521	52.5	6290	6.3	41	4.1	37	3.7	39	271	3.8	70.5
JaMarcus Russell	680	354	52.1	4083	6	18	2.6	23	3.4	70	457	9.3	65.2

2005-2009	att	comp	Pct	yds	avg	td	td%	int	int%	sack	loss	sack%	Rate
Peyton Manning	2651	1768	66.7	20686	7.8	150	5.7	61	2.3	76	451	2.8	99.4
Tom Brady	2200	1429	65	16919	7.7	128	5.8	47	2.1	89	577	3.9	98.7
Aaron Rodgers	1136	726	63.9	8801	7.7	59	5.2	21	1.8	93	607	7.6	97.2
Drew Brees	2855	1895	66.4	21874	7.7	146	5.1	72	2.5	94	664	3.2	95.9
Philip Rivers	1906	1202	63.1	14918	7.8	105	5.5	45	2.4	102	641	5.1	95.8
Tony Romo	1857	1178	63.4	15045	8.1	107	5.8	55	3	99	619	5.1	95.6
Matt Schaub	1343	890	66.3	10757	8	58	4.3	36	2.7	72	459	5.1	93.9
Kurt Warner	2105	1371	65.1	15843	7.5	100	4.8	59	2.8	107	756	4.8	91.9
Ben Roethlisberger	2116	1330	62.9	16681	7.9	110	5.2	70	3.3	212	1388	9.1	90.9
Carson Palmer	2199	1399	63.6	15827	7.2	110	5	62	2.8	109	737	4.7	90
Donovan McNabb	2160	1294	59.9	15947	7.4	98	4.5	43	2	142	892	6.2	89.6
Jeff Garcia	1064	671	63.1	7398	7	38	3.6	18	1.7	54	278	4.8	88.5
Chad Pennington	1378	913	66.3	9713	7	49	3.6	37	2.7	95	555	6.4	87.3
David Garrard	1785	1100	61.6	12578	7	62	3.5	36	2	133	787	6.9	86
Brett Favre	2808	1777	63.3	19595	7	121	4.3	91	3.2	124	857	4.2	84.8
Jay Cutler	1775	1098	61.9	12690	7.1	81	4.6	63	3.5	86	511	4.6	83.8
Matt Hasselbeck	2079	1258	60.5	14112	6.8	92	4.4	63	3	142	915	6.4	82.9
Jason Campbell	1637	1002	61.2	10860	6.6	55	3.4	38	2.3	109	716	6.2	82.3
Jake Delhomme	1687	1004	59.5	12153	7.2	72	4.3	58	3.4	98	744	5.5	81.6
Marc Bulger	1940	1174	60.5	13179	6.8	65	3.4	51	2.6	164	1171	7.8	81
Eli Manning	2596	1498	57.7	17601	6.8	119	4.6	79	3	137	977	5	81
Steve McNair	1149	720	62.7	7324	6.4	34	3	27	2.3	45	303	3.8	80.9
Matt Cassel	1048	620	59.2	6870	6.6	39	3.7	29	2.8	93	478	8.2	79.6
Jon Kitna	1306	812	62.2	9133	7	44	3.4	49	3.8	131	807	9.1	78.6
David Carr	1046	661	63.2	6230	6	31	3	28	2.7	125	751	10.7	78.3
Kyle Orton	1454	841	57.8	9121	6.3	51	3.5	39	2.7	88	521	5.7	76.9
Kerry Collins	1368	755	55.2	8740	6.4	39	2.9	33	2.4	62	423	4.3	74.1
Joey Harrington	1066	626	58.7	6472	6.1	31	2.9	35	3.3	71	444	6.2	72.3
Vince Young	1034	596	57.6	6843	6.6	32	3.1	39	3.8	62	335	5.7	72.3
Derek Anderson	1109	587	52.9	7083	6.4	46	4.1	45	4.1	47	337	4.1	69.7
Alex Smith	1172	660	56.3	7029	6	37	3.2	43	3.7	103	642	8.1	69.2

Originally Posted by rowech

Some will be disagreed with because of post-season performance and I understand that...

Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, McNabb, Rodgers, Roethlisberger

I think Warner comes in behind these guys. Manning, Brady, and Brees without question. I don't think Roethlisberger is a great QB but tough to argue with two titles. The other guys I know people will pick apart because of not having any post-season success (other than McNabb who has become his own entity as a QB)

From the stats, I think it's really just P.Manning, Brady an Brees that have the obviously better numbers over 2005/2007 through 2009. Behind them, Roethlisberger has the playoffs success, while Romo and Rivers had consistent regular season stats. Overall, you have consider Kurt Warner as being 4th or 5th best over the past 5 seasons.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by rowech

Some will be disagreed with because of post-season performance and I understand that...

Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, McNabb, Rodgers, Roethlisberger

I think Warner comes in behind these guys. Manning, Brady, and Brees without question. I don't think Roethlisberger is a great QB but tough to argue with two titles. The other guys I know people will pick apart because of not having any post-season success (other than McNabb who has become his own entity as a QB)

Yes, and that post season performance is the 800lb gorilla in the corner. You can't look at Warner's career and not see it or ignore it. Championships and playoff success define quarterbacks in the NFL. How many guys over the years have we heard "if he had a super bowl ring" or "he's never won the big games"? Warner has done it and done it with his skills not by relying on the Steel Curtain, '85 Bears' or more recent Ravens' defenses. Sure he had good skill position guys but if he doesn't get the ball to them then it really doesn't matter.

Of these guys you listed (Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Romo, McNabb, Rodgers, Roethlisberger) who would you rather have under center if your team were in the super bowl? Manning and Brady stick out but an argument could still be made that Warner might be the best choice. The rest? Not even close IMHO.

[rowech]

For the record guys....I'm not saying Warner is some God awful QB. I just don't believe he has a HOF career. I love the dude. Just not enough for HOF.

[kenparker23]

What are you guys talking about?? "where does he rank in 2005-2009" or "where does he rank in the Arizona years". Hall of Fame is the result of a players body of work from start to finish.

Warner 32,344 yards, 66.5% comp, 208 TDs (128 int) career rating 93.7

His post seasons are some of the best ever. Again, look at Warner versus Steve Young (from an earlier post).

Steve Young (14 games): 275 of 447 (61.5 percent) for 3,118 yards (7.0 YPA), 20 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions. QB rate 86.1

Kurt Warner (13 games): 307-462 (66.5 percent) for 3,952 yards (8.5 YPA), 31 touchdowns, and 14 interceptions. QB rate 102.8

In the NFL it is all about the post season. This is why Lynn Swann and Terry Bradshaw are there (and deservingly so IMHO)

The problem is, Warner has been underrated his entire career. I love the Tony Romo comparison. If you put these same numbers for a guy like Tony Romo in 10 years, everyone will think he would be a lock for the hall of fame. To get there, Romo will have to continue the same productivity that he has had for the next 4-5 years, go to the super bowl the next 3 out of 4 years, win at least one of them, and be named MVP of the game. And in those super bowls, Romo needs to post the top three super bowl passing games of ALL TIME!!

To date, Romo is a hell of a long way from this. He has one playoff win.

Warner's body of work alone should get him into the hall. It doesn't matter that his career had some peaks and valleys.

What is hall of fame criteria???
Great stats -- check
Great teammate -- check
Winner -- check
Big game player in post season -- check
Good person -- check
Quarterbacks - great release and accurate -- check
Could lead teams and men -- check
Career over 10 years -- check
Excellence sustained over a period of time -- half a check (because he was injured in the middle of his career, but he came back late in his career)

It makes if hard for me to see how anyone could argue against his being a hall of famer.

[Eaglesfan27]

Was he really injured for the entirety of those 5 bad years, or did he have trouble beating out two different young QB's because his play was bad during that time? What about the start of 2002 when he was healthy, but started off the year with 7 interceptions in his first 3 games before he was hurt? What about 2005 when he started off poorly against for the Cardinals in their first few games before he hurt his groin and then was beat out by Josh McCown? Those 5 years were such a barren period that I think he'll at least fail to make it in on the first ballot despite his great character giving him a boost.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Was he really injured for the entirety of those 5 bad years, or did he have trouble beating out two different young QB's because his play was bad during that time? What about the start of 2002 when he was healthy, but started off the year with 7 interceptions in his first 3 games before he was hurt? What about 2005 when he started off poorly against for the Cardinals in their first few games before he hurt his groin and then was beat out by Josh McCown? Those 5 years were such a barren period that I think he'll at least fail to make it in on the first ballot despite his great character giving him a boost.

Denny Green was in love with McCown, and Warner had been injury riddled since the Rams days. Not a surprise to see McCown get the nod. This is why Denny Green is no longer an NFL coach.

As for the Giants situation, Warner was playing with a new team and doing "okay", but the intent was always that he would be holding things over for Eli. Everyone knew that; the Giants spent an arm and a leg to get Eli. Joe Montana in his prime wouldn't have been able to stop that momentum.

As for 2002, not sure how much we can make of it. Plenty of players get off to bad starts and then right the ship. In this case, Warner got hurt before he got the chance to do so. We don't know what would have happened, but considering what success he had since then, I would argue he probably would have made some positive gains back to respectability.

[miked]

He had a rating of like 86 or 87 and a winning record before the Giants benched him. His rating with the Giants was as good or better than most of Eli's years. They just got impatient with their new car and decided to rush it off the lot.

[Warhammer]

In 2002 in StL, the Rams played a completely different offense with him in there than they did without him. They kept 5 guys in to block when Warner was QB, and had 7 guys in to block when Bulger was QB. The line had deteriorated to the point where Warner was getting killed.

With the Giants, he never had a chance. He was keeping the seat warm for Eli.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

In 2002 in StL, the Rams played a completely different offense with him in there than they did without him. They kept 5 guys in to block when Warner was QB, and had 7 guys in to block when Bulger was QB. The line had deteriorated to the point where Warner was getting killed.

^^^^^
This doesn't get said nearly enough.

Martz (the genious) nearly killed Warner with his stubbornness, refusing to make any adjustments to protect him.