WTF? no thread about the star trek trailer

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Voyager was better written and more consistent, plus Janeway had the balls that Sisco was lacking. DS9 had the stronger cast but Voyager was the superior program.

Wow, you're the only Trekkie that I've ever heard choose Voyager over DS9. I didn't watch Voyager religiously like I did DS9 but I've always felt that the consensus was that DS9 was a much better show, especially since I considered Sisco to be a much more interesting protagonist than Janeway.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I cant comment on Voyager. I stopped watching the show in the middle of the first season. I thought it was pretty awful. Mayhaps it turned itself around and became decent.

I watched all of Voyager and don't think it comes close to DS9 and didn't like it as much as TNG either. I would say the plots they came up with were interesting (like the Borg vs. Species 8472), but they always managed to drop the ball when it came to executing and developing them.

And I'm not sure I even saw the last season or two of DS9.

[DaddyTorgo]

Voyager actually lost me when they brought Jeri Ryan in to play 7 of 9 and the female executive producer (what's her name...damn) on, and the whole show turned into the "Janeway + 7 kickass power hour". I could do without the overt, in-your-face female-empowerment message thanks a lot.

I disagree with sterlingice and bad-example, and challenge them - bat'leth's at dawn! DS9 was absolutely not weak until the finale. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that although Seasons 1 & 2 may not have been the strongest, I could still name as many good episodes as outright stinkers from both of them.

What I do agree with though is that on first-viewing they may not have seemed as strong, but when I bought all the DVD's and went back and watched them, I found episodes that I enjoyed much more the second time around, because of the attachments I later developed for the characters, and the added level of complexity it brought to each of them, and to the universe as a whole. In particular, after watching Seasons 6+7 and the whole "Dukat on Bajor in disguise manipulating the Kai" thing - going back and rewatching the Season 1+2 religious and Bajor-centric episodes is much more interesting and powerful.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Wow, you're the only Trekkie that I've ever heard choose Voyager over DS9. I didn't watch Voyager religiously like I did DS9 but I've always felt that the consensus was that DS9 was a much better show, especially since I considered Sisco to be a much more interesting protagonist than Janeway.

There are some of those out there. In particular, if you ask people who prefer TNG best, they prefer Voyager to DS9 and, in some cases, it's a little deeper than "they're on a ship, not stuck in place" (seriously, tho, that's about 80% of what I hear from the Voyager over DS9 crowd).

The entire ensemble cast of DS9, led by Avery Brooks, was head and shoulders among their counterparts on Voyager. Go down the line, one against the other and you'll see DS9 better at almost all points. Sisco vs Janeway, no contest. Kira vs Chakotay , no contest. Dax vs whoever-is-third, Tom Paris or whatever on DS9? Yeah. You see a pattern? And the bench is that much deeper on DS9 when you start getting into O'Brien and Worf borrowed from TNG. I think the only places where you can consider an advantage to Voyager or even close is at Doctor but I think that sells Bashir short a little.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I would go so far as to say the show was pretty weak until the end. The strong final season causes some people to remember DS9 as being better than it really was.

Voyager was better written and more consistent, plus Janeway had the balls that Cisco was lacking. DS9 had the stronger cast but Voyager was the superior program.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I disagree with sterlingice and bad-example, and challenge them - bat'leth's at dawn! DS9 was absolutely not weak until the finale. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that although Seasons 1 & 2 may not have been the strongest, I could still name as many good episodes as outright stinkers from both of them.

What I do agree with though is that on first-viewing they may not have seemed as strong, but when I bought all the DVD's and went back and watched them, I found episodes that I enjoyed much more the second time around, because of the attachments I later developed for the characters, and the added level of complexity it brought to each of them, and to the universe as a whole. In particular, after watching Seasons 6+7 and the whole "Dukat on Bajor in disguise manipulating the Kai" thing - going back and rewatching the Season 1+2 religious and Bajor-centric episodes is much more interesting and powerful.

Hey, hey. I'm getting words put into my mouth from both sides now. Actually, DT, I agree almost 100% with you. I think that as soon as they started talking Dominion to open the third season, followed up closely by war- the show really got going. I joke with my wife, as soon as Avery Brooks's hair migrated from his head to his chin, that's when the show took off.

Also, agreed- the Bajoran religion aspect was the thing most short changed by the final season of DS9. Instead of so many filler episodes, trying to get the cast "used to Ezri", they should have gone after the Emissary-Dukat angle. The closing 10-parter barely touched on it until the final 10 minutes, after the finale of everything else and "goodbye to the cast"- I've always felt as if they just went "oh, crap, we forgot to tie this up" after filiming the episode and just tacked something onto the end.

Back to the point at hand, Voyager was garbage, mostly. There were some good episodes- I remember the two parter where they found 7 of 9 (iirc, it was a one night 2-hour event on UPN originally when I saw it)- that was very good. Still, TNG has probably the most solid single episodes, DS9 a great overall arc, and Voyager, well, not good across the board. We won't even talk about Enterprise, which was something with so much promise, as a concept, yet mangled from the start

FYI, some background info: I went back and rewatched the entire show with my wife from start to finish about 2 years ago when Spike got the rights so it's a little fresher in my memory than some shows.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Voyager actually lost me when they brought Jeri Ryan in to play 7 of 9 and the female executive producer (what's her name...damn) on, and the whole show turned into the "Janeway + 7 kickass power hour". I could do without the overt, in-your-face female-empowerment message thanks a lot.

LOL...some of us men are not scared or put off by strong female characters.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

The entire ensemble cast of DS9, led by Avery Brooks, was head and shoulders among their counterparts on Voyager. Go down the line, one against the other and you'll see DS9 better at almost all points. Sisco vs Janeway, no contest.

Wow. Avery Brooks was terrible. He is a bad actor that was a liability on DS9. Rumor was they considered replacing him early on. Wish they had.

Otherwise, the DS9 cast was better than Voyager. It was the superior writing that made Voyager the better show.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Wow. Avery Brooks was terrible. He is a bad actor that was a liability on DS9. Rumor was they considered replacing him early on. Wish they had.

Otherwise, the DS9 cast was better than Voyager. It was the superior writing that made Voyager the better show.

...wow.

-1

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

LOL...some of us men are not scared or put off by strong female characters.

ummm nowhere did i say i was scared by it - i just didn't enjoy the way that the show became 99.9% about them and 0.1% about Paris + B'elana

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

...wow.

-1

yeah, seriously. Avery Brooks is a terrible actor?

[Groundhog]

Only episode of Voyager I remember watching is one that involved clones, and then at the end they were fleeing from some planet explosion or something and it was revealed that the crew we'd been watching were the actual clones. Or something. I remember liking the episode however.

IMO, the only Star Trek series that I'd watch right now if it was on would be the original. I'm a sucker for that early sci-fi stuff, but much less so the soap opera of TNG. I never gave Voyager or DS:9 much of a shot.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i just didn't enjoy the way that the show became 99.9% about them and 0.1% about Paris + B'elana

Your lips move, but I can't hear what you say. Probably because that was never the case. The show regularly rotated the focus between the main characters.

Surprised that anyone would defend Brooks' acting. He sure hasn't been working since.

[RendeR]

From Wiki:

Latest projects

Brooks was part of a directors panel at a festival celebrating the work of Ntozake Shange at the New Federal Theatre on February 11, 2007. Brooks has directed Shange's Boogie Woogie Landscapes at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and in London's West End.^[9]
In 2006, Trekweb and TrekToday announced that Avery Brooks would take a role in the upcoming film John Rambo. Brooks himself later said this was not the case. He said "I've met Mr. Stallone, many years ago — I have great respect for Mr. Stallone, always did. However, Rambo is not in my future".^[10]
In March 2007, it was confirmed that Brooks would appear in a new production of Christopher Marlowe's play Tamburlaine.^[11]
As part of BBC Audiobooks America's entry into the US market, Brooks narrated an audiobook of Alex Haley's novel Roots: The Saga of an American Family. It is the first time the novel has received an audio adaptation. Brooks himself had starred in the 1988 television film based on the book, Roots: The Gift.^[12]
Brooks has also completed work on his long-awaited CD. It contains "a selection of ballads and love songs... I speak of my respect for my father, and for artists that I have listened to all my life."^[13]
In August 2008, it was announced that Brooks will play Willie Loman in a new production of Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman.^[14]
Brooks also periodically attends Star Trek conventions around the world.




I laughed at the willie loman part at first because its a long running joke that washed up actors go play dinner theater versions of "death of a salesman" but even so, it takes far more talent to act on stage anywhere than it does to do television.


brooks as a commanding officer role in a star trek series was far better than the janeway cahracter. he had more depth he had far more stature with his compatriots in DS9. His acting was exactly what it needed to be for that role, no more, no less. Which is far more than can be said of janeway. Mulgrew's character was revamped numerous times during the writing of the show over its lifetime.

[RendeR]

DOLA: and I'll defend the good dr bashir, I feel he was at least a real character. The doctor on Voyager was a cop out gimik thrown in to allow them to do a lot of weak episodes. Just as every series other than the original had a weakness for the following, Voyager made by far the worst excuses for doing so and did them far more often than any other series:

Time travel
Holodeck scenarios
filler episodes that add little to the overall storyline and do less to flesh out a real character.

They all did this to some extent (even the original with time travel) but Voyager was written like a death row inmates final requests. "Lets do an episode like this, ok now this, ok lets rip off an episode from that version and twist it with one from another version, ok no time travel, now the borg, ok time travel solves this one too....

It was a long string of the most cliche'd episode styles from all three previous series. While sometimes they were decently done, as a whole the Voyager series was just a lame duck to carry on a dying franchise.

Hopefully the new movie will open up a new veue for the entire genre.

[DaddyTorgo]

DETAILS ON THE AVERY BROOKS CD MOTHERFUCKER!!! I NEED TO GET MY HANDS ON THAT SHIT RIGHT NOW!!!

[RendeR]

Ok ease off the wild turkey there DT. He's a good actor, his singing skills are yet to be determined

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Wow. Avery Brooks was terrible. He is a bad actor that was a liability on DS9.

Have you seen the episodes "Far Beyond the Stars" and "In the Pale Moonlight?" They were both great episodes and Avery Brooks was outstanding in both of them.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ok ease off the wild turkey there DT. He's a good actor, his singing skills are yet to be determined

doesn't matter. i must have it anyways.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Have you seen the episodes "Far Beyond the Stars" and "In the Pale Moonlight?" They were both great episodes and Avery Brooks was outstanding in both of them.

Well, I have seen all of them. I wouldn't say Brooks was awful all the time. But most episodes had at least one cringe-worthy moment. Maybe it is one of those things that you have to be really focusing on the actor to realize how bad he is. Maybe it is just different opinions. Shrug.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by RendeR

From Wiki:

Latest projects

Brooks was part of a directors panel at a festival celebrating the work of Ntozake Shange at the New Federal Theatre on February 11, 2007. Brooks has directed Shange's Boogie Woogie Landscapes at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts and in London's West End.^[9]
In 2006, Trekweb and TrekToday announced that Avery Brooks would take a role in the upcoming film John Rambo. Brooks himself later said this was not the case. He said "I've met Mr. Stallone, many years ago — I have great respect for Mr. Stallone, always did. However, Rambo is not in my future".^[10]
In March 2007, it was confirmed that Brooks would appear in a new production of Christopher Marlowe's play Tamburlaine.^[11]
As part of BBC Audiobooks America's entry into the US market, Brooks narrated an audiobook of Alex Haley's novel Roots: The Saga of an American Family. It is the first time the novel has received an audio adaptation. Brooks himself had starred in the 1988 television film based on the book, Roots: The Gift.^[12]
Brooks has also completed work on his long-awaited CD. It contains "a selection of ballads and love songs... I speak of my respect for my father, and for artists that I have listened to all my life."^[13]
In August 2008, it was announced that Brooks will play Willie Loman in a new production of Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman.^[14]
Brooks also periodically attends Star Trek conventions around the world.




I laughed at the willie loman part at first because its a long running joke that washed up actors go play dinner theater versions of "death of a salesman" but even so, it takes far more talent to act on stage anywhere than it does to do television.


brooks as a commanding officer role in a star trek series was far better than the janeway cahracter. he had more depth he had far more stature with his compatriots in DS9. His acting was exactly what it needed to be for that role, no more, no less. Which is far more than can be said of janeway. Mulgrew's character was revamped numerous times during the writing of the show over its lifetime.

Ah, I used IMDB and it showed him not working. Should have used the wiki. I would say his overacting should serve him well on the stage. He is probably better there than on tv (I sure hope so).

I thought Kate Mulgrew was very good as Janeway. Regardless of any changes in her character they might have made, Mulgrew was always solid.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Wow. Avery Brooks was terrible. He is a bad actor that was a liability on DS9. Rumor was they considered replacing him early on. Wish they had.

Otherwise, the DS9 cast was better than Voyager. It was the superior writing that made Voyager the better show.

I can almost see how someone would prefer Mulgrew to Brooks. Brooks overacted, which I thought was ok for the role (yeah, Shatner and Stewart were subtle with capital S), but I could see how someone would be put off by it.

But writing- I just don't see any way that the writing was at all better. The cast and dialogue were much better written- that's why we all think the cast is better. As for plot and show structure- DS9 was well serialized with a great large 5-season plot arc, and learned after the first two seasons that you rarely do certain types of plots because they just don't work with the show format. RendeR sums up Voyager best: "It was a long string of the most cliche'd episode styles from all three previous series". Now if you're good at single episodes, you have TNG where it's 2 or 3 good for every 1 decent or bad whereas Voyager was lots of episodic crap. Other sci-fi shows have done the episodic thing much better where it's kindof a hybrid with single episodes that introduce a character, character plot, plot device, etc that they are going to bring back later. But Voyager didn't do that either. They just had a lot of clunkers.

SI

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

But writing- I just don't see any way that the writing was at all better. The cast and dialogue were much better written- that's why we all think the cast is better. As for plot and show structure- DS9 was well serialized with a great large 5-season plot arc, and learned after the first two seasons that you rarely do certain types of plots because they just don't work with the show format. RendeR sums up Voyager best: "It was a long string of the most cliche'd episode styles from all three previous series". Now if you're good at single episodes, you have TNG where it's 2 or 3 good for every 1 decent or bad whereas Voyager was lots of episodic crap. Other sci-fi shows have done the episodic thing much better where it's kindof a hybrid with single episodes that introduce a character, character plot, plot device, etc that they are going to bring back later. But Voyager didn't do that either. They just had a lot of clunkers.

I will quote the great Captain Pike: "Beep! Beep!"

That's 2 beeps for "no". (Not "double yes")

Starting in the second season of Voyager they had a terriffic run of episodes. They continued their own series-long plot arc (the journey home) while producing some of the best-written shows of all the Trek series. I have seen all the Trek episodes more than once. Voyager had higher high points while both shows had about the same percent of "clunkers".

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I can almost see how someone would prefer Mulgrew to Brooks. Brooks overacted, which I thought was ok for the role (yeah, Shatner and Stewart were subtle with capital S), but I could see how someone would be put off by it.

One last thing about Brooks. He didn't just over act. He under acted too. In fact, he was all over the place. When he got emotional, sometimes I swear I thought he was about to burst into song. The scenes where he got angry or exasperated were the worst. It is like he didn't know what to do with his voice. He was just inconsistent and that made him terribly hard to watch. "Oh man, that was a bad reading" popped into my head pretty damn often, and I can't say that about ANY other Trek actor.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

I will quote the great Captain Pike: "Beep! Beep!"

That's 2 beeps for "no". (Not "double yes")

Starting in the second season of Voyager they had a terriffic run of episodes. They continued their own series-long plot arc (the journey home) while producing some of the best-written shows of all the Trek series. I have seen all the Trek episodes more than once. Voyager had higher high points while both shows had about the same percent of "clunkers".

Originally Posted by Bad-example

One last thing about Brooks. He didn't just over act. He under acted too. In fact, he was all over the place. When he got emotional, sometimes I swear I thought he was about to burst into song. The scenes where he got angry or exasperated were the worst. It is like he didn't know what to do with his voice. He was just inconsistent and that made him terribly hard to watch. "Oh man, that was a bad reading" popped into my head pretty damn often, and I can't say that about ANY other Trek actor.

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