Pacman just doesn't learn...

[Surtt]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

This is what I have a problem with. If I get in a bar fight over the weekend but show up to work on Monday, why should my employer know or care? Now when my behavior starts affecting my work (i.e. missing days etc.) THEN my employer can and should have a problem.

There are a lot of jobs where you would be fired for this, anything where your reputation is important.

[Scoobz0202]

I don't know guys. Jones should have definitely been more paranoid about what he should be doing, but all we have heard is that it is pretty minimal in what went down.

And to those, and there have been a few of you, who say getting in a police matter will get you suspended nowadays, I disagree.

ProFootballTalk.com - Police Blotter

I clicked on a random one. Lawyer Milloy. DUI, which by a lot of peoples standards is a really big deal. I looked at his stats. He has played every game.

[Lathum]

It doesnt matter how minimal it was. He was on a zero tolerance policy

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

This is what I have a problem with. If I get in a bar fight over the weekend but show up to work on Monday, why should my employer know or care? Now when my behavior starts affecting my work (i.e. missing days etc.) THEN my employer can and should have a problem.

If your employer told you not to go to the bar based on past fights and you still went, I am sure he will have a problem even if you showed up Monday morning.

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Even if you want to make the case that Goodell is well within his right to suspend players for "police matters", how the fcck do you suspend someone before the courts have had their say? If a player is deemed innocent, you've already punished him for something a court said he didn't do. I happen to think Jones is a piece of shit human being, but for authoritarian Goodell to suspend him when the Cowboys chose not to is complete BS.

Question for the group: If this hadn't been all over ESPN the last few days do you think Goodell does anything?

See above. He may not have broken any legal laws, but he broke Goodell's rules. Suspension justified.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

If your employer told you not to go to the bar based on past fights and you still went, I am sure he will have a problem even if you showed up Monday morning.

See above. He may not have broken any legal laws, but he broke Goodell's rules. Suspension justified.

So where's the line? Based on your arguments, Goodell should have the right to tell players that they can't [insert behavior] and it's OK. Let's say it turns out that in reality NOTHING happened here, it was just a disgruntled employee making shit up. What then?

Goodell's suspending players based on media coverage. And it's bullshit.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

So where's the line? Based on your arguments, Goodell should have the right to tell players that they can't and it's OK. Let's say it turns out that in reality NOTHING happened here, it was just a disgruntled employee making shit up. What then?

Goodell's suspending players based on media coverage. And it's bullshit.

I agree to an extent, however Pacman is not just any player, he is a player thats had history and he shouldnt have put himself in that situation from the start.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

This is what I have a problem with. If I get in a bar fight over the weekend but show up to work on Monday, why should my employer know or care? Now when my behavior starts affecting my work (i.e. missing days etc.) THEN my employer can and should have a problem.



Even if you want to make the case that Goodell is well within his right to suspend players for "police matters", how the fcck do you suspend someone before the courts have had their say? If a player is deemed innocent, you've already punished him for something a court said he didn't do. I happen to think Jones is a piece of shit human being, but for authoritarian Goodell to suspend him when the Cowboys chose not to is complete BS.

Question for the group: If this hadn't been all over ESPN the last few days do you think Goodell does anything?

First of all, if your employer told you that if you got into a bar fight over the weekend you would be fired, then, yes, I would expect you to be fired regardless of whether it affects your job performance.

Second, the thousands of people with any level of clearance or background investigation could be fired for such an incident. If you are detained by the police, but not arrested, and you have a security clearance, you are required to report it to your security officer. If you think athletes are the only ones affected by their out-of-the-job activities, you are wrong.

Regardless, Pacman (and the rest of the NFL) knows that if he gets in trouble with the police, he could be subject to suspension. I don't care if you don't think its right, that is the deal you got into when you signed on with the league.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

So where's the line? Based on your arguments, Goodell should have the right to tell players that they can't [insert behavior] and it's OK. Let's say it turns out that in reality NOTHING happened here, it was just a disgruntled employee making shit up. What then?

Pacman would have had to agree to the terms of reinstratement. He doesn't have the same rules as any other player.

I haven't seen that Pacman has denied anything. He's probably had some kind of communication with the commissioner's office and who knows what he admitted too.

But the bottom line is the NFL is a private employer - they're not bound by criminal law as the standard for unacceptable employee behavior.

He could take it to the courts if he had a case - but I'm sure the terms of his reinstatement, including procedures for future disciplinary issues, were crystal clear.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

Regardless, Pacman (and the rest of the NFL) knows that if he gets in trouble with the police, he could be subject to suspension. I don't care if you don't think its right, that is the deal you got into when you signed on with the league.

And normally, I'd have no problem with that. The issue I have is that each TEAM should be able to set their own policies. The Cowboys chose not to take any action against Jones. He's their player, let them deal with it.

If Goodell wants to take action against the Cowboys, he should be able to do THAT.

Going back to my bar fight, what Goodell is doing is the equivalent of saying, not only are you fired, you can't get another job in your field with anyone else either.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

And normally, I'd have no problem with that. The issue I have is that each TEAM should be able to set their own policies. The Cowboys chose not to take any action against Jones. He's their player, let them deal with it.

If Goodell wants to take action against the Cowboys, he should be able to do THAT.

Going back to my bar fight, what Goodell is doing is the equivalent of saying, not only are you fired, you can't get another job in your field with anyone else either.

What do you think this is, a federalist state? Leagues fine players and coaches all the time. The teams are not separate entities with their own laws. Everyone plays under the NFL umbrella. You're comparing the teams to states or some other entity of a union. Are you saying that the executives at GM should not be allowed to fire someone that works in the Pontiac division? This is a business, and the teams don't exist without the NFL.

And, back to my example, you would not be employable by any federal agency or contractor requiring a security clearance. All the more reason that if you know something is a fire-able offense, you stay away from it.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

And normally, I'd have no problem with that. The issue I have is that each TEAM should be able to set their own policies. The Cowboys chose not to take any action against Jones. He's their player, let them deal with it.

If Goodell wants to take action against the Cowboys, he should be able to do THAT.

Going back to my bar fight, what Goodell is doing is the equivalent of saying, not only are you fired, you can't get another job in your field with anyone else either.

Actually he couldnt get a job with the Premiere football league (NFL). Im sure he could go try out in the CFL or the arena league which would still be in his "field".

Now if anyone would want/take on his dumbass that would be a different story.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

What do you think this is, a federalist state? Leagues fine players and coaches all the time. The teams are not separate entities with their own laws. Everyone plays under the NFL umbrella. You're comparing the teams to states or some other entity of a union. Are you saying that the executives at GM should not be allowed to fire someone that works in the Pontiac division? This is a business, and the teams don't exist without the NFL.

All the other league fine players/coaches for things that happen WHILE THEY ARE AT WORK. I've got NO PROBLEM with that and understand the relationship.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by muns

Actually he couldnt get a job with the Premiere football league (NFL). Im sure he could go try out in the CFL or the arena league which would still be in his "field".

Now if anyone would want/take on his dumbass that would be a different story.

I don't know about Arena, but the CFL honors NFL suspensions.

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

All the other league fine players/coaches for things that happen WHILE THEY ARE AT WORK. I've got NO PROBLEM with that and understand the relationship.

I am glad that when I counteract your point of non-NFL jobs you completely ignore it.

As for off the field infractions, the NFL lives and dies by its public image. It does not want to be viewed as the NBA often is, as a league full of thugs. The NFL wants its fans to concentrate on teams and on-the-field performance, not personalities and their off-the-field shenanigans. That is the way they have chosen to run their business, and everyone in the NFLPA has agreed to these regulations.

[muns]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I don't know about Arena, but the CFL honors NFL suspensions.

I didnt know that. I thought Ricky Williams was suspended by the NFL but he played in the CFL a few seasons back?

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by muns

I didnt know that. I thought Ricky Williams was suspended by the NFL but he played in the CFL a few seasons back?

The rule was enacted just before Vick's suspension.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

All the other league fine players/coaches for things that happen WHILE THEY ARE AT WORK. I've got NO PROBLEM with that and understand the relationship.

I think the concept you dont get here is as an NFL player you are at work 24/7 as a representitive of the league and need to act accordingly.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by muns

I didnt know that. I thought Ricky Williams was suspended by the NFL but he played in the CFL a few seasons back?

I thought he "retired" because he knew he was going to get suspended.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Going back to my bar fight, what Goodell is doing is the equivalent of saying, not only are you fired, you can't get another job in your field with anyone else either.

Arena? CFL? There are other places within his "line of work".

Pacman is a moron who deserves what he gets. He brings this shit on himself instead of "Cowboying Up" and accepting the consequences of his actions.

[DeToxRox]

Pac Man has gotten more shots then Lawerence Phillips did. Good riddance.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think the concept you dont get here is as an NFL player you are at work 24/7 as a representitive of the league and need to act accordingly.

I get it. It's completely wrong, but I get it.

Here's the text from the NFLPA. The italicized parts are what I have a problem with.

Any Covered Person arrested for or charged with conduct prohibited by this policy will be required to undergo an immediate, mandatory clinical evaluation and, if directed, appropriate counseling. Such evaluation and counseling must be performed under the direction and supervision of the NFL Vice President of Player and Employee Development. Failure to cooperate with evaluation and counseling (including being arrested for or charged with additional criminal activity during the evaluation and counseling period) shall itself be conduct detrimental to the National Football League and shall be punishable by fine or suspension at the discretion of the Commissioner.

• Persons Convicted of Criminal Activity
• Any Covered Person convicted of or admitting to a criminal violation (including a plea to a lesser included offense; a plea of nob contendere or no contest; or the acceptance of a diversionary program, deferred adjudication, disposition of supervision, or similar arrangement) will be subject to discipline as determined by the Commissioner. Such discipline may include a fine, suspension without pay and/or banishment from the League. Any Covered Person convicted of or admitting to a second criminal violation will be suspended without pay or banished for a period of time to be determined by the Commissioner.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

I get it. It's completely wrong, but I get it.

Here's the text from the NFLPA. The italicized parts are what I have a problem with.

Failure to cooperate with evaluation and counseling (including being arrested for or charged with additional criminal activity during the evaluation and counseling period) shall itself be conduct detrimental to the National Football League and shall be punishable by fine or suspension at the discretion of the Commissioner.

I'm curious what you have a problem with. Do you think playes should only be punished for events that result in criminal convictions? Or that players should not be punished for anything that happens off the field? Who exactly do you have a problem with - both parties agree (union and owners) to the rules, players agree to them when they sign a contract. Everyone agrees.

There are SO many jobs where you'd get fired for being a public embarassment to humanity. Really ANY job where you're ANY type of public figure - including teachers, journalists, lawyers, government employees, officers of corporations, etc.

Or if you're saying that Pacman is being punished for conduct beyond what's cited in the blurb, remember that this isn't the only thing that governs his "probation" period. He has individual rules with the commissioner with regards to his reinstatement. Again, everyone agreed to them. I don't see you can have two consenting parties and the mutual agreement be "wrong".

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

I get it. It's completely wrong, but I get it.

Here's the text from the NFLPA. The italicized parts are what I have a problem with.

Any Covered Person arrested for or charged with conduct prohibited by this policy will be required to undergo an immediate, mandatory clinical evaluation and, if directed, appropriate counseling. Such evaluation and counseling must be performed under the direction and supervision of the NFL Vice President of Player and Employee Development. Failure to cooperate with evaluation and counseling (including being arrested for or charged with additional criminal activity during the evaluation and counseling period) shall itself be conduct detrimental to the National Football League and shall be punishable by fine or suspension at the discretion of the Commissioner.

• Persons Convicted of Criminal Activity
• Any Covered Person convicted of or admitting to a criminal violation (including a plea to a lesser included offense; a plea of nob contendere or no contest; or the acceptance of a diversionary program, deferred adjudication, disposition of supervision, or similar arrangement) will be subject to discipline as determined by the Commissioner. Such discipline may include a fine, suspension without pay and/or banishment from the League. Any Covered Person convicted of or admitting to a second criminal violation will be suspended without pay or banished for a period of time to be determined by the Commissioner.

If Pac Man admitted he was drinking, he admitted to a crime (a violation of his probabtion).

[DeToxRox]

PHILLIPS THINKS PACMAN ERA IS OVER
Posted by Mike Florio on October 15, 2008, 6:24 p.m.

Cowboys coach Wade Phillips said on Wednesday that he doesn’t think cornerback Pacman Jones will return to the Cowboys, even after Jones is reinstated from his latest suspension.

“I can’t count on him coming back or us bringing him back or any of those other things,” Phillips said, according to Tim MacMahon of the Dallas Morning News.

“He’s gone. That’s what it looks like to me. I’m not saying what’s going to happen in the future, because I don’t know what’s going to happen in the future or what is or isn’t going to be done there. But I can’t go there. I’ve got to go with the players I have.”

From any other coach, these words would be a clear sign that the player truly is done. But we’re talking about the Cowboys, where the head coach is merely a glorified defensive coordinator with his pink slip awaiting the owner’s signature. So, basically, we don’t put much stock in anything Phillips says about Pacman.

[Surtt]

Also from the NFLPA

# Persons Engaged in Violent Activity in the Workplace
# Every employee is entitled to a safe and professional workplace free of criminal behavior, violence and threats against personal safety. Criminal conduct in the workplace or against other employees is prohibited. Any Covered Person who commits or threatens violent acts against coworkers, regardless of whether an arrest is made or criminal charges are brought, shall be subject to evaluation, counseling and discipline, including termination of employment.

Packman's body guard was an employee of the Cowboys.
The NFL has every right to suspend him.

[JeeberD]

Hey everybody, Pacman's back! (or he will be after Thanksgiving)

ESPN - Dallas Cowboys CB Adam Jones reinstated by NFL ... again

Yeesh...

[Kodos]

Don't worry. It won't be long until he screws up again. Some people just can't help themselves.

[JediKooter]

I heard he's having a reinstatement party at a strip club.

[st.cronin]

That article gives the impression that his bodyguards were not really to protect him from harm, but to keep him from acting like an idiot - more like babysitters. Which makes the original incident make a lot more sense to me.

[Thomkal]

don't have a link for you, but ESPN is reporting that the Cowboys have released him. No details just an update on their ticker

[Dr. Sak]

They just said something like "The Cowboys released Jones because they learned of a Vile crime he did while with the Titans"

[RendeR]

The major point that foo is arguing against is that the league has the right to fire you for smudging their reputation. He thinks its wrong, and thats fine, he will probably never work for the NFL =)

however pacman DOES work for the NFL and is thus required to abide by the NFL rules and regulations and any further stipulations he has accrued based on prior performance.

Goodell is wel with his rights to suspend a player indefinitely if their actions wether proven true or false bring negative attention to what for all intents and purposes during his tenure is HIS league. He is the commissioner and within certain restrictions he IS god in the NFL.

[RendeR]

DOH, I try catching up and posting just as MORE news comes out =)

make my statement above "DID FORMERLY WORK" LOL

Pacmans a fucking moron =)