 |
12-01-2004, 11:55 PM
|
#51 | ||
|
Team Chaplain
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Just outside Des Moines, IA
|
It's incredibly tempting for me to jump in here. As in all religious discussions, some people say some things that are either stupid or severely slanted from painful personal experiences. I'm not gonna touch all that.
Two comments about previous posts, however: Just wanted to affirm cuckoo for your lengthy post above--good stuff, and wanted to affirm franklinnoble for actually stepping up to plate when challenged to quote the Koran. I'm no scholar of the book myself, but glad to see someone backing up their talk with a little leg work. Now, to go back to the original post: spleen--I'm no shrink, but the way I read that first post, it seems a bit excessive. Maybe you're only emphasizing for effect, but if your anxiety is that severe, I would recommend seeking a counselor. Regardless, I'll summarize what many FOFC'ers already know about me: I did some reading and some research about this Jesus guy. I think all of us would like--if there is a God--for him to come down here and introduce himself and tell us how it is. Since others claimed that's exactly what happened 'round 30 A.D., I decided to look into it. Sure enough, this Jesus claimed to be God on earth, was witnessed to perform many supernatural deeds, and claimed to tell us how it is with God, Heaven, the Kingdom of God and all that. As someone else said, either he was a loonie, a liar, or telling it straight. If you are truly concerned about what happens after death...if you really wonder what it would be like to meet God...then doesn't it make sense to look into which this Jesus guy was? Loonie, liar, or God? In my research, I was convinced that these four things are verifiable fact (not everyone is swayed by the evidence, I admit. But it was enough for me to be convinced): 1. There really was a Jewish man named Jesus from Nazareth 2. He really did claim to be God. 3. He was killed. 4. He came back to life, as evidence of devine power over death. From that, I eventually concluded Jesus was God. Another person might conclude that Jesus was raised from the dead by a witch doctor, or that Jesus was only one of many gods, one who put on the whole "incarnation" thing as a ruse to win our worship away from other gods, or that Jesus was an alien. Heck, I don't know. But after honestly looking at it all, I was convinced that Jesus was exactly who he said he was: God coming down to introduce himself and tell us how it is, both in this life and the next. As for what happens after I die, I have found great reassurance, peace, and hope--for this God/Man gave us some good news on the topic. Since I believe he was God, I figure he knows what he's talkin' about.
__________________
Winner of 6 FOFC Scribe Awards, including 3 Gold Scribes Founder of the ZFL, 2004 Golden Scribe Dynasty of the Year Now bringing The Des Moines Dragons back to life, and the joke's on YOU, NFL! I came to the Crossroad. I took it. And that has made all the difference. |
||
|
|
|
12-01-2004, 11:56 PM
|
#52 |
|
Solecismic Software
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Canton, OH
|
Yes, I thought I clarified that with a later post (referring to the post where I was quoted).
Last edited by Solecismic : 12-01-2004 at 11:59 PM. |
|
|
|
|
12-01-2004, 11:57 PM
|
#53 |
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Little Rock, AR
|
To me, it is worth the risk of believing in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If there is a heaven, and I believe there is, then I will be in pretty good shape . If there is not, then what do I have to lose?
I have completely different views on organized religion, however. Every church I have ever been a member of has been corrupt (preacher having an affair on his wife, people stealing money from the church, etc.) That has helped shape that.
__________________
Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014 |
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 12:03 AM
|
#54 | |
|
High School JV
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington
|
Jesus is the Way!
Quote:
We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. I too have had struggles with some churches, yet there are good Christians in the world and they too are sinners. Don't blame religion on The Lord!
__________________
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 12:14 AM
|
#55 | |
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Little Rock, AR
|
Quote:
How am I blaming religion on The Lord?
__________________
Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014 |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 12:38 AM
|
#56 |
|
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Michigan
|
i'll resort back to my second post in this.
whats the purpose in talking about death? it happens. like i said. my personal belief in the meaning of life is that your meant to live. so if you're meant to live, why do you want to talk about death? |
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 01:48 AM
|
#57 | ||||
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
|
Here's what Franklinnoble said:
Quote:
Here's his evidence - does it back up his statement? Quote:
A little context would be nice, but given this is all we are presented with, we'll make do. Seems to me what this is saying is if you are attacked, fight back. Don't fight in the Mosque unless you are attacked first. "Drive them out from whence they drove you out" - reclaim your lands that were taken from you. The only thing that jibes with Franklin's statement is "...slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers." In the full context of the sentence though, it suggests this is only done when you are attacked first; it doesn't suggest that unbelievers be slaughtered simply for not believing. Quote:
Not sure how this is supposed to jibe with Franklin's statement - it would help to see the full context. From what we see quoted, it suggests that Islam, like Christianity, preaches a forgiving God. Quote:
Seems to be saying actively resist persecution, and suggests that worshipping Allah is the only true path, but then again Christianity says the same thing. The rest suggests peaceful co-existence unless oppressed. From my perspective, a balanced reading of the above passages suggests that Islam promotes forgiveness and peace, but also encourages believers to actively fight back when attacked and persecuted. Not quite the same thing as what Franklinnoble was originally suggesting... |
||||
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 01:51 AM
|
#58 | |
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
|
Quote:
I was also impressed that he managed to quote some passages of the Koran, but if you read what he posted, it doesn't quite back up his talk, which was less impressive. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 03:29 AM
|
#59 |
|
Greatly Missed. (7/11/84-06/12/05)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Palo Alto, CA
|
A couple of things about quotes from the Koran and the Bible. First off, I would like to say that there are many different interpretations of those texts and certainly its not all the Muslim world that accepts the most extreme interpretations of the Koran. Its the same kind of extreme interpretation some Christians take of some Bible quotes. Thats one of the main problems in history and now, an interpretation that is so extreme that it causes violence.
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 06:26 AM
|
#60 |
|
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2003
|
This has all be very interesting for me. I purposely didn't join in the discussion last night because I wanted to take all of your comments in and see how they made me feel today.
I did go to bed last night and not think about this stuff. I attribute that to making this poat and reading everyone's thoughts. I would like to reinterate that I am not consumed by this. It was just something that occupied my mind most nights when trying to go to sleep. Growing up, my dad wasn't there for any of his kids. To this day, he is a very selfish, bigoted person. The feeling of disappointment I had in my father when I was a kid drives me very hard today. The memory of those feelings won't allow me to be a poor husband or father. I truly live life for my wife and kids, no question. So, I guess you could say I have dedicated to living my life for my family. When I die, I don't care what people think of me as long as they can't say I was a poor husband and father. This discussion went further religiously than I intended but I guess I should have expected it to. I would like to ask couple a questions. This is assuming I lead a good life and I am deserving to make it into heaven... Will I go to heaven even though I struggle to believe in it? Will I go to heaven even though I struggle to believe in God? Is it wrong to want to believe in these things because you want the benefits they may provide? I appreciate the discussion. You guys have offered a lot of good points and advice. |
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 08:14 AM
|
#61 |
|
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Spleen, I'm going to try to avoid some of the tangent discussions this thread & just offer a thought or two about your original post.
I found it interesting (and perhaps you will as well) that while we seem to have very different beliefs about matters relating to God/Heaven/et al, we have roughly the same experience with regard to fears about our future, or perhaps more accurately, the earthly lack thereof. I have a feeling that was worded pretty obscurely, lemme try again -- I related very well to the feelings & fear you talked about in the opening paragraphs. We may not share much in the way of beliefs about "after", but we've definitely got some things in common in the "now".
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 08:34 AM
|
#62 | |
|
Coordinator
Join Date: Sep 2003
|
Quote:
I can't comprehend any parent not being scared some how by those things. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 08:42 AM
|
#63 | |
|
High School JV
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington
|
JAMES 1:26-27 read it and see what religion is!
Quote:
I didn't mean to infer that you were saying that, "blaming religion on the Lord". I apologize if that is how you perceived my statement. I am just tired of hearing people chose not to believe in God because this church did this or that Christian did that. Know what I mean. Man has changed and in some ways corrupted God's definition of religion. read James 1:26-27. More soon....
__________________
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Last edited by G-Man : 12-02-2004 at 08:44 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 08:44 AM
|
#64 | |
|
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Edmond, OK
|
Quote:
I don't in any way claim to be a religious scholar, but I'll offer what I would think to be an answer to these. Struggle is a natural part of humanity as is quest for logic and understanding. Struggling to believe in God and Heaven would not preclude you from entering the kingdom of God, I would think. But not allowing him to enter your heart would. It is so easy for us as humans to put up a shell against the spiritual, explain it away with supposed logic, or pretend that we don't need it. We are prideful beings, and one of the most difficult things to do is open yourself to God. Speaking purely from the Christian perpective, if you open yourself to God and educate yourself about Him, he will make himself known to you in prayer, in love, and in everything you see around you. I consider myself to be an extrememly faithful person, but I struggle with my beliefs on a regular basis. Several months ago, my daughter had an illness (which is by no means serious but seemed so at the time to me), and I did the one thing I wish I wouldn't have done. I doubted Him. In fact, I would go so far as to say I blamed Him. I have had many periods of spiritual struggle in my life, but I do not think that will bar me from the gates of heaven assuming that when I die, I have lived a good and righteous life, and I have accepted Jesus into my life, despite doubts. Now, again from a personal perspective, I think the notion of believing only for the benefits is a bit of a cop-out and it ignores the incredible commitment and duty of a person of faith. That said, and this may sound strange, it's a start. I look at it this way: for whatever reason you choose to learn about God and investigate Him, at least you're doing so, and from my experience, you're more likely to accept him once you have all the facts. In the end, it's not likely that you'd remain only believing for the benefits. DISCLAIMER: I choose to put this in every religious post because I realize that not everyone believes as I do. I don't mean to state anything as unquestionable "fact," only that it is unquestionable "fact" to me. Last edited by Cuckoo : 12-02-2004 at 08:46 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 08:59 AM
|
#65 | ||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Actually if you read the bible there are many instances where people are referred to as 'Sons of God' - this isn't something which was exclusively placed upon Jesus, however for whatever reason (mainly the resurrection) its only with Jesus that this is taken literally. In the other cases its taken as implying 'created by God' .. For example one of several grabbed from a quick search online: The KJV Strong's Version Genesis 6 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Quote:
Last edited by Marc Vaughan : 12-02-2004 at 09:37 AM. |
||
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 11:35 AM
|
#66 | ||
|
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
|
Quote:
All believers are "sons of God." However, Jesus Christ is in fact the only "literal" Son of God, and, simultaneously, is God in the flesh. Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. Quote:
This is an interesting theological debate. I struggled with this a while back, when someone posed the question, "Did God create evil?" I eventually had to conclude that, yes, He did. Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. But, I believe he has a purpose in this. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. |
||
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 11:50 AM
|
#67 | |
|
Team Chaplain
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Just outside Des Moines, IA
|
Quote:
More theology here than spleen wanted, but I'll bite. First off, Jesus' claims to divinity go WAY beyond the phrase "Son of God". If you want, I can give a whole Sunday School lesson on the topic, but for now I'll just point out that arguing against the phrase "Son of God" in a literal meaning doesn't even scratch the notion that JC was uniquely divine. On the second point "As he designed us inherently flawed, shouldn't he share the blame?"--the premise here is faulty. God created us in his image, in other words, with the choice between good and evil. If you look closely at the creation story, you can also see that creation was "good" and that the first humans did have a natural tendency to seek good and God. (Some could argue we still carry that tendency--an innate longing to return to God). When tempted, however, when lied to and deceived, humans gave into sin. That choice corrupted us, such that modern humanity is as a spoiled apple, rotten to the core. Your logic, in effect, is like picking up a rotten apple and saying - "Hey, if Johnny Appleseed knew the apples were going to rot, he should have found some other fruit to plant. He should be reprimanded for planting such a disgusting plant."
__________________
Winner of 6 FOFC Scribe Awards, including 3 Gold Scribes Founder of the ZFL, 2004 Golden Scribe Dynasty of the Year Now bringing The Des Moines Dragons back to life, and the joke's on YOU, NFL! I came to the Crossroad. I took it. And that has made all the difference. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 12:01 PM
|
#68 |
|
Hattrick Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fort Worthless, Tx
|
Comprehending your own non-existance is not a walk in the park.
Casting any religious discussion aside, by making a difference in the world around you, no matter how large or small you will live forever.
__________________
King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy) |
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 01:23 PM
|
#69 |
|
Awaiting Further Instructions...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Macungie, PA
|
(Former baptist-mind-numbed-robot here that walked away from church in his early 20s after spending most of his formative years going to church 3-4 times a week.)
No offense, but there is no god as definded in the bible. However, if there is then the Earth we live on is the Bible's Hell. I say that because the definition of Hell is the "absence of God" and I think most of us could say that this world is God-absent. And for those that say there are many many instances of God's work in the world now, you are full of it. Why the Hell would the omni*insert word* creator of all things go into invisible mode? Judas was the only sane one of the disciples. He realized the limitations of our nature that we have. He needed to see, touch, and see Jesus after he died. God supposedly creates us with these organic miracles (brains) and then sets off to make his system of getting "in" with his heaven-crowd based on rules that our brains weren't meant to deal with and then equates us to sheep in his "Werd." Life teaches you that having faith in anything but yourself is a road to pain and disaster. Sure there are good bumps along the road, but for the most part this world is really just a chain reaction of shitty events. I've learned to make my own happiness in this existence. I do things that I enjoy. I love the shit out of my daughter. I make sure I am home every night and that she has a dad that lives in the same house and puts together christmas gifts that come in 10,000 pieces. I work to make sure we can afford to live comfortably. I read a lot. Most of all, I never place too much value on the words of others. I am like Judas. I need to see the wounds on his hands. I need to see somebody follow through on their word before I trust them. Faith schmaith. My feelings are that if the god of the bible is "real" that he will know my soul and understand my reasoning. If he doesn't, that tells me that he isn't somebody I need to spend eternity with anyway. Last edited by Bonegavel : 12-02-2004 at 01:25 PM. |
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 01:31 PM
|
#70 | |
|
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Placerville, CA
|
Quote:
Judas was the one who sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver, then went and hung himself. Thomas was the one who asked to see the holes in Jesus' hands. I'd gather that it's probably been a while since you read the Bible. Maybe now that you're a little older and wiser, you might want to give it another fair shot? Try John and Romans... |
|
|
|
|
|
12-02-2004, 05:43 PM
|
#71 |
|
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
Getting rid of the sting of death is a great selling point. But it is also where I think Jesus and Paul depart. Its hard for me to imagine Jesus saying, "Hey watch me do this crazy thing. I'll die, come back, then you all can spend eternity with me, all you have to do is believe what about I'm about to do."
If the Kingdom of God is here, and if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, then I can understand why Jesus did not talk about Heaven like Paul did. Plus, it's hard for me to say that the Spirit is not everywhere, that the presence of God is absent in some places. Because if the Spirit everywhere and God is present in everything, then what is Heaven? 110% Spirit presence? My point is that once Christianity gets reduced to believing just to get rid of the sting of death, then as Gump said, it just becomes, "One less thing to worry about." It is my no coincidence that parents are the ones most passionate about this topic. There is an analogy between these two types of parental relationships (God/man parent/child). The love we have for our children is profound. Moreover, the feeling we get is greater than no other. Perhaps that was the type of love and feeling Jesus talking about when He said Love God and another. If we all love each other a parent loves there child, then truly the Kingdom of God would be at hand. |
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 03:46 AM
|
#72 | ||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
The only acts which seperates Jesus are: * His founding of the church (which could be argued to have existed before him, however as the chap who fulfilled various prophecies he moved it from Old to New testament). * His coming back to life after death unaided. Of the two the first is obviously important and is backed by historic fact, however it doesn't imho indicate he is the son of God. The second however is hearsay and I have yet to find any backing up of this via. historical document (I'm rather loathe to take the cyclic argument and use the bible to back itself up as many Christians do) - if you know of any I'd be interested in your references. Quote:
(similar arguement can be put regarding the Devil being a fallen angel) |
||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 04:05 AM
|
#73 | ||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Rom 1:3 - This surely indicates that he 'isn't the son of god being made of the 'seed of David'? (although in fairness the NIV indicates the text as 'descendant of David' which still leaves his Godly parentage open for debate). Rom 1:4 See Mar 1:1 - many people are Sons of God, hence this isn't an indication of his Goldlyness Joh 3:16, 3:16 - These are more in favour of Jesus being spawn of God, however I would counter with the fact that there is no indication that Jesus is considered a 'God' himself merely that he was conceived by God (ie. God is his father, Jesus is his child). This in itself doesn't indicate that Jesus is 'God' or vice versa, most religions have instances where their God(s) conceive human babis, the majority of these religions don't pass on 'God' status to these children. Hence if you follow this arguement then indeed Jesus could be his son without being 'God. I'd also point out the cyclical nature of the arguements here-in, there is historic proof of Jesus's existance and the effect he had on society at that time, however there is no proof of his being 'raised' from the dead in historic documents that I can find - there is also no historic proof outside of the bible of his being the 'Son of God'. If you look through religious texts then it will be fairly easy to find similar documents for other religions which mention kings/prophets who were considered to be 'Sons of God' - few of these are taken seriously today, however Jesus is because the religion is still 'allive' currently. Quote:
For instance by creating evil God caused millions of people to be condemned to Hell ... is this not in itself an act which at best could be considered 'non-good' opening doors to arguements that God isn't 'Good' .... this in turn indicates that the Bible isn't 100% accurate and throws more water onto Christianities fire. Options remaining open from this imho: * God lives by different rules to humans, hence good and evil for him are different to us (doesn't sound right to me). * God isn't wholly good and is more 'neutral', instead having greater plans which we don't understand. Humans may or may not be incidental to these plans (I've often wondered if we aren't a 'training ground' for the Devil to learn the futility of rebellion against God, much of the bible seems to indicate this if you read through it - especially the fact that the Devil isn't actually destroyed at all, even when finally beaten). * Some humans are created without Souls and as such don't get condemned to hell, meaning that their lack of salvation or indeed their sinning isn't evil (think of it along the lines of animals - they're responding to their base nature). I apologise in advance in case anyone thinnks I'm being antagonistic with these comments, I am sincerely interested to hear peoples thoughts regarding this. |
||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 04:10 AM
|
#74 | |
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Thus God creating something which 'fails' indicates that he meant it to fail ... (thus bringing up the whole 'free-will' debate - which I'll touch on briefly) Free Will problems: God knows everything that is and that will be. ie. he is omnipotent. Thus at the moment he creates a person he knows exactly his choices and what he will do - otherwise God isn't omnipotent. Hence freewill is an illusion as we can only really do what God designed and intended us to do. We believe we are making choices, but in reality we are like computer programs preprogrammed to do as God intended. NB. this doesn't actually have a negative effect on whether Christianity is 'right' or 'wrong' but is something which I've found interesting to mull over ... current stance is, doesn't matter whether its like this or not, I'll just get on with life  |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 04:17 AM
|
#75 | |||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Quote:
(as you can probably tell from my previous posts - I also have this problem )Quote:
I personally consider myself a Christian cynic (that is a Christian who has a LOT of questions regarding things) .... at the moment to be blunt I tend to use God in the same way I use smoking, I'll talk to him when I'm stressed out as a way to calm down and put things into perspective (and no he's never answered me yet .... but I find it helps anyway). |
|||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 04:37 AM
|
#76 | |
|
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
|
Quote:
Well, if you just simply think on the organic level, when we die our atoms don't cease to exist. They go back into the pool so to speak and eventually hook up with other atoms to form new stuff so we all may well literally contain parts from several famous dead people. I've often wondered if it is possible that somehow these atoms might not contain some form of memory, not a lot obviously but some form of it and it triggers rarely but when it does send a signal to the brain it causes a sorta deja vu thing and the person believes that they were Napolean or something. It is possible that this may occur. Here's what man is working on now. hxxp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2290707.stm Now, this isn't the same thing as what I described but what if, the atom is the data storage method used by nature to store human memory ( and it is we know for DNA ) then if enough atoms from, say, Yul Brenner were somehow part of Noop now ( I think 9 months would be waay too soon btw but most people if you notice are ancient famous reincarnations not the recently dead )and at some random point these atoms fired off a Brenner flashback, then who knows? I'm not saying this is something I believe per se but it's not a concept I can outright reject.
__________________
There are no houris, alas, in our heaven. Last edited by Axxon : 12-03-2004 at 04:39 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 04:56 AM
|
#77 |
|
Greatly Missed. (7/11/84-06/12/05)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Palo Alto, CA
|
Marc said that God hasn't answered him yet - however sometimes when he's stressed he prays (talks) to God. News to you Marc, what do you think calmed you down? It was God, he answered your prayer.
Just to take a jab at all this talk about books like the Bible being false or real or being interpretated wrong. The Bible can't be completely false, there HAS to be some truth in it. Why would God allow a completely false book written in his name be studied and taught and followed by so many people throughout history? The same goes for the Koran and Torah (sp?). In one way or another, we all feel the presence of God, whether it is when a close family member is lost, or we are in trouble or when we are joyful. It happens a lot with people who have near death experiences. Our souls feel the need to have a closeness with God - this the mechinism for faith. |
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 05:09 AM
|
#78 | ||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Or would you consider my handling of stress by smoking as also coming from God? ... as that also calms me down One of the main problems I have with accepting God as involved in this is purely this logic: (1) If God exists he made me to be the man that I am and did this for a reason (2) I'm naturally logical by nature and therefore question the existance of God, thus is I can assess a situation as logical without the involvement of God then by "Occam's Razor" the simplest solution (ie. the one not involving God) is probably the real one. If God didn't want me to take this approach to reasoning then he shouldn't have made me the way I am - ergo, either God made me this way and wants me to use my brain or God doesn't exist and thus I can do what I like with my brain Quote:
Last edited by Marc Vaughan : 12-03-2004 at 05:10 AM. |
||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 05:37 AM
|
#79 | ||||||||
|
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
|
Quote:
I think the best example of Jesus' view on his own status would be how he told us to pray to god. "Our father..." While we can say that he is generalizing I'd like to think he was making a point. There is no difference between us in the eyes of our father. Quote:
Lets walk this one the other direction. Jesus came here to fulfill the prophesies. That much is clear from what he said. The prophesies did NOT speak of a child born of God, rather that the messiah would be the descendant of David. Joseph was the descendant of David. Matthew, the tax collector and thus the disciple most likely to be the record keeper type starts his gospel out spelling out this fulfillment. Remember the begats? That's why he put those in. There was a problem though. Christianity was a small religion at that time and it's biggest market was the pagan market and they had some really cool Gods going and also some really good festivals. Christmas as we know was a later addition trying to coopt from these religions. Well, a lot of religions had Gods with virgin births. Jesus was by no means the first one. So, how do you sell people that your God is the biggest and the best? Well, he had a virgin birth too. They conveniently forgot about the prophesy here but lets face it, the jews weren't their target really so why worry about convincing them? Later, justifications could be made and indeed there are some who say now that Mary was also a descendant of David thus both are true. Well, thing is, that's not how descendants were determined at that time; it was strictly through the father that this was established. Also, note that the gospel writers didn't mention this and surely if this was their rational they would have. It's easy to believe that Mary may indeed have had a vision and been told that she would bear Gods chosen, and I'd say that Jesus was at least one of Gods chosen, but this doesn't mean that God had to slip her the hard one. In fact, the thought of God having to do anything physical such as take a human body for an hour or so just to recreate an unnecessary human bodily function makes no sense to me but again, Zeus did this a whole lot so I think we can see an example of the concept and why it would be so palatable to the people. Quote:
Same thing really but I went so far as specifically mention the virgin birth angle.  Quote:
Phew, here is the biggie. Good and evil is at the heart of the bible and our faith based system. I was thinking about this when I read Franklin's quotes. I was thinking how a faith based religion really sucks because to prove your point you have to show "rules and God says" from a book that the other person doesn't have faith in. There is nothing in the bible that can "convince" you of anything unless you already want to believe and that makes it a hard sell. But, I realized, that is what was intended. What was mankind's first sin? Partaking of the fruit of "the knowledge of good and evil." Our first mistake was because we wanted to KNOW things, not have faith. The minute we tried to know something, bam, we're out of the garden. It makes sense that his book wouldn't offer any answers just say believe or else. Frustrating but then again, is that my sin talking. Quote:
Why not? We've never had one good definition of what is good and evil according to God. We don't know and have no way of knowing. We know of things that he wants us to do and not do but nowhere is it explained if it's good or evil that we're asked to do, only if it pleases or displeases God and we're expected to have faith that this is the thing to do. Basically, we live by rules that God gives us but he doesn't define good and evil, doesn't want us to learn the definition. Given this, we can't have a clear understanding about what is good or evil so any opinion on the subject we may make is suspect at best. Quote:
Well, as the Job story states, they're rather chummy and even use us to bet for their amusement. I've had days where this makes far more sense than anything else I've read in the bible.  Quote:
I've often wondered if this rising above our animal nature is what we should be doing no matter what. I often say that I hate people but what I really hate is how we revert to our animal nature ( and animals my friends aren't cute and cuddly. they're mean and cruel and do what they must to survive and one up each other ) and because of our knowledge, rise above it. Since it is based on our so called knowledge though it isn't exactly biblical but what bothers me is people talking about how good and noble we are as a species and then go out and revert to our animal instincts by hurting others to get ahead or for amusement therefore throwing away what is supposed to separate us from the animals in the first place. Quote:
I will also apologize if anyone is offended by my words and I also apologize when they're invariably misunderstood. I tried my best but I'm not in the optimal situation to be writing this morning and admittedly topics like this really require more than a human can muster to explain well. I did the best that this christ following non christian can do this morning.
__________________
There are no houris, alas, in our heaven. |
||||||||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 05:45 AM
|
#80 | |
|
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Phoenix, AZ
|
Quote:
Seed of David. The only way he could be made of the seed of David would be through the seed of David's descendant which is Joseph. I put this in my long post but I thank you for providing me with this reference. This is even better as it's indicative of what the followers of Jesus were thinking and they WEREN'T thinking virgin birth yet. That came later.
__________________
There are no houris, alas, in our heaven. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 06:12 AM
|
#81 | ||
|
H.S. Freshman Team
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
This is me too, only I turned away at around 18. Quote:
This has always bothered me, too. I will try to put into words the conclusion I believe God led me to. The popular image of God as stern, distant ruler is in many ways wrong. God made the entire universe with one thing in mind: that we would share it with him as friends and companions. This is why God does not write "I am the Lord your God" in mile-high letters of fire across the sky. He wants us to seek him out because we want to find him, not out of fear of the consequences or in hopes of gain. Analogy: do you think Bill Gates wonders if he has any true friends? Imagine the insincerity and butt-kissing if God gave positive proof of his existence. If you seek him, he will find you . But if you need tangible proof, it ain't happening. A good book with a different (but still biblical) perspective on the nature of God is Wild at Heart by John Eldredge. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...671609-0958407) Also, a couple times I saw people say the key to salvation is living a good life and believing in God. With apologies if I offend, this is incorrect. The sole key to salvation is to trust that Jesus came to earth as God in the flesh, lived a perfect life, died and in that death paid for our sins, and rose from the dead. Jesus alone is the key. Nothing you do or don't do can or will get you in, and if you have faith in Jesus, nothing you do or don't do can or will keep you out. And a quick word on faith: faith is often mis-characterized as unshakable belief. Actually, faith is just this: I know Jesus has taken care of it. Sometimes you may (I know I do) find some or all of it hard to accept as fact. I'm sure even the Pope doubts. But the key is: I know Jesus has taken care of it. Simple as that. |
||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 06:31 AM
|
#82 | |
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Ahhh but if God is omnipotent then he has effectively made some of us butt-kissers and others antagonistic .... somewhat akin to a computer programmer writing two elisa programs, one to praise him constantly and the other to criticise him. Hence your agruement is flawed as we are pre-programmed to behave as he wanted, if this isn't true and God has truly given us 'free-will' then he doesn't know what we're going to do ... which removes his omnipotency and indicates he isn't truly God. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 06:47 AM
|
#83 | |
|
H.S. Freshman Team
Join Date: Nov 2003
|
Quote:
If I'm following right, you are mixing being in control with controlling. God is in control of everything. He chooses not to actively control everything, however. All people are free to make whatever choices they wish. God made us all different, and some of us have more difficult natural tendencies to overcome, but in the end the choice is ours and so is the responsibility. And in the end, as I was saying before, I'm not going to be able to prove this to you, logically, tangibly, or otherwise, by design . I know that sounds like a cop-out, but that's the way it is. Either you choose to believe or you don't. After 16 years of atheism (my whole adult life), I found that the evidence of God in my life became too overwhelming to ignore. And I hate to abandon a civil quasi-religious discussion (possibly the first such thread in internet history) in the middle, but I probably won't have a chance to come back to this until Saturday night. Last edited by randal7 : 12-03-2004 at 06:51 AM. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 07:01 AM
|
#84 | |||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
(as I've mentioned before this doesn't affect the tenability of Christianity - but its an interesting nuance imho). Quote:
The main problem for me is blind belief - I see no conclusive evidence that Christianity as presented by the majority of churches is reliable per-se, I choose to be a christian because I believe in the basic values and want to encourage them in society, I'm also open to the idea and possibility of encountering God ... however so far this simply hasn't happened and I've been very unimpressed by the 'encounters with God' which I've seen so far (mainly Holy spirit, speaking in tongues ... I'd be happy to discuss these via. PM/email if you're interested in my take on them). Quote:
|
|||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 07:50 AM
|
#85 | |
|
Hattrick Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fort Worthless, Tx
|
Quote:
God did create in his own image with the soul or spirit. It is through the flesh that Man failed. Through the spirit, your essense becomes one with God.
__________________
King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy) |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 08:44 AM
|
#86 | |
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
Simply put my arguement is thus: Either 1 - God made man and intended for him to sin and for many humans to suffer in Hell. 2 - God made man and intended for him not to sin and got things wrong. Both of these are a possibility because many men do not become Christians and thus according to Christian tenets go to 'Hell' (literally ). Yes man was created by God who is omnipotent and thus knew exactly what would happen to all of mankind at the point when he created the first man.If 1. is true then God intended that many people would suffer external damnation and made them for this purpose. If 2. is true then God failed in making man because he turned out contrary to his wishes, thus God isn't omnipotent. A 3. is theoretically possible which gives God a 'kop' out where not all humans have souls, hence no 'souled' human is condemned to Hell .... however this contradicts the gist of several biblical passages. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 11:23 AM
|
#87 | |
|
Hattrick Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Fort Worthless, Tx
|
Quote:
Well it's a slippery slope. This is much like the question "Can God create a rock he cannot lift?" Then again we slap the words "all-knowing", "omnipotent" and the like but really as people ourselves really have no concept of what that means. My answer would be that God is not restricted by what we call time. The concept of time of course is a manmade invention. He already knows the answer before the question was conceived. Therefore your scenarios in #1 and 2 (or 3 through infinity) don't apply. It sounds like a weak answer but trying to put God in yours and my reality saying "well what was he thinking when he made us" doesn't make any sense.
__________________
King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy) |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 11:51 AM
|
#88 |
|
Team Chaplain
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Just outside Des Moines, IA
|
Marc,
I don't think you and I will agree on this, but I've noticed two distinct logical fallicies in your discourse thus far. 1. Omniscience and omnipotence do not necessarily mean the preordination of all human decisions. They merely imply foreknowledge. I know this seems illogical to you, but there are two distinct ways in which this could work: Either A.) God knows the choices you will make, knows they will counter what he truly desires, but allows it anyway. In other words, he purposefully suspends his omnipotence by not preventing you from choosing counter to his desires. (Others believe God pursposefully suspends his omniscience--called "Openness Theology"--but this is IMO less tenable). Simplified, just because he wants it doesn't mean he makes it happen. This option is a nice theory, but not my favorite, for it is more theoretical than supported by Scripture. Or B.) Scripture does clarify that even the concept of "foreknowledge" is flawed, for God is not contained in time as we understand it. There is no before or after to him, only what is him and what is not. It is "in" his nature to create, it is "in" his nature to love, to give choice, to redeem--and apparently his desire to love a free-will being and be loved by that being is greater than the pain he feels when many free-will beings choose otherwise. In other words, he chose that creating both love and hell were better than no love at all. The way I, as someone willing to trust without having to know all the answers, choose to look at it (is this option C? I dunno) is: God had the choice eons ago of making creation with beings that had choice. Knowing some would choose faith and love, while others would choose pain and death, he had to ask himself, "Is it worth it?" Fully knowing many would suffer damnation, is it worth it to introduce love to the universe? For reasons I only trust are good and true, he decided it was worth it. So he made Creation, and made choice. For without choice, there is no love. Because he is eternal--there is no yesterday or tomorrow with him--he knows what you have chosen, are choosing, will choose. That doesn't mean he made the choice, but only that he has already lived in your future and knows what you are going to do. I simply see no reason omniscience and omnipotence have to equal the absence of free will. Fallacy #2: You mentioned "no historical documents outside the Bible" supporting Jesus' resurrection. This reflects a misunderstanding of the nature of the Bible, and of historical documents. One wouldn't expect to find historical documents about Caesar among native American writing--why not? Native Americans never saw nor knew Ceasar. Likewise, one would only expect historical documents about Jesus' resurrection from those who actually witnessed it. Now, the vast majority of those that actually witnessed it (some 8000+ people), became followers of Jesus (understandably, I would think). So the historical documents we have regarding his resurrection are written by his believers. This in itself is no discredit, however, as history or news reporting as an objective science was a new to non-existent science back then. There was no news channel 7 Jerusalem to report these things, but only eye witnesses. The majority of historical documents from that time period are written, not by objective historians, but by advocates of the events. "Historians" were a rare thing, although an early one Josephus is well-known, and the physician Luke shows signs of early journalistic integrity. The truth is, we do have historical documents that tell of Jesus' resurrection--dozens of scrolls and such, most of which are copies of books which we today call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Though Acts and some of Paul's letters also provide corroboration. These historical documents are not to be discounted because they were compiled in the year 430 or so into the foundation of a religious denomination. They are every bit as "historical documents" as others of the time period. ("They are biased," you say. "They conflict," you say. "There's some question of their reliability," you say. True. But those same things can be said of every so-called historian of the day, and every historic document. Tell me Josephus wasn't slanted in his "news coverage" of the destruction of Jerusalem!)
__________________
Winner of 6 FOFC Scribe Awards, including 3 Gold Scribes Founder of the ZFL, 2004 Golden Scribe Dynasty of the Year Now bringing The Des Moines Dragons back to life, and the joke's on YOU, NFL! I came to the Crossroad. I took it. And that has made all the difference. |
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 11:54 AM
|
#89 | |
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Here
|
Quote:
I see what you're saying shorty, but my question is, do you really think it will be a big black space forever, or will it be nothing, because there is a distincy difference between the two. On the one hand, blackness wouldn't be horrible... you'd at least have your memories. But nothing is something I'm not entirely sure we can fathom. When we think of nothing, we often think of blackness, but I don't that is a true grasp of nothingness. Imagine what its like in the nights when you sleep, but don't remember your dreams. You go to sleep, and you wake up, but you don't remember anything that happened in the 8 hours you were out. Now, try to imagine you didn't wake up, never had a dream, never had a thought, nothing, there's nothing you could possibly imagine that would equate to nothing-ness. I don't really think our minds can grasp the idea of what it would be like for there to be nothing. Nor do I think it would matter if we could. If that is what happens, and I am not advocating anything for or against it, it would really have no impact. We couldn't feel sad about it, worry, be happy, have regret that it wasn't another way. Its just done, as if we never existed. I think this is one of the greatest strengths of most religions. It gives everything a purpose. Thats all we strive for, a sense of meaning as to why we are here. That isn't to say we don't have an actual purpose, but religion is a kind of soothing idea that gives us a reason not to worry. |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 12:57 PM
|
#90 | |||
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
Quote:
As you probably predicted there isn't a 'cure all' answer for my question, but I appreciate the time and trouble you took to answer and its definitely something I'll mull over ... Quote:
As such we might have free will, however God knows the choices we will make in advance (thus whether free will exists or not is down to individual perception of the situation, are we preprogrammed because God knows what we'll do or is it just down to God being omnipotent). (which doesn't actually hinder any believe in Christianity, its just a somewhat warped view of things )Quote:
As you say, lack of historical documentation doesn't disprove it happening ... (amongst other things I'm also intruiged by are the 'blank' period in Jesus's life in the bible which isn't documented - you seem fairly knowledgable in these things, any idea? ...) Last edited by Marc Vaughan : 12-03-2004 at 12:58 PM. |
|||
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 01:00 PM
|
#91 | |
|
High School JV
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington
|
He is Risen, Indeed!
Quote:
I agree with your comments on fallacy number one. Number two for the most part. However I am currently reading a book called "The Case For Christ". It is written by Lee Strobel an investigative journalist with a legal background. There are actually many instances where historical documents outside the Bible do support Jesus and the Resurrection. The book is a fascinating read. I am only half way through it but I believe that even non-believers would have trouble refuting the FACTS stated in this book. I will be positng some of the more interesting excerpts from this book over the weekend along with some of my testimony to hopefully help those who do wonder about Life after Death and to also help you fill that gaping whole inside that is your spirit withering... It is really ok that you do not believe in Him, at this time, for He will never stop believing and having faith in you....
__________________
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 01:24 PM
|
#92 |
|
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
|
G-Man if you can post some extracts from that regarding the Resurrection I'd be very interested, I've heard good things about the book but haven't read it yet (I've read a few similar ones - but nothing which had supporting historical documentary evidence on the Resurrection itself).
Should make an interesting read ... |
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 01:43 PM
|
#93 | |
|
High School JV
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Seattle, Washington
|
Quote:
I will post some over the weekend.
__________________
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" |
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 02:26 PM
|
#94 |
|
Team Chaplain
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Just outside Des Moines, IA
|
I've also heard great things about The Case for Christ, but I've never actually read it. (I've worked with Lee Stroebel, though!)
Marc - as for the "blank periods" in his life, I'm afraid we're out on a limb there. In a time period without newspapers or public school records or immunization records or...how would anyone know about a poor carpenter's son from rural Palestine? Why would anyone write about him? Even if he was the guru of all godly wisdom as a 5-year old, who would know about it, except local yocals? In fact, at one point in the Bible (John 1:46) someone reflected the popular disdain for Jesus' home region by saying, "Nazareth? What good ever came out of Nazareth?" Those that did write about Jesus (Matt, Mark, Luke, John, and others) didn't even meet him until he was about 30 or so, so we just don't know. Jesus shows up as a baby in Jerusalem, again when he's about 12, then a while later at a wedding in Capernaum. What was he doing in the in-between time? Curious, though, eh? I believe there are some extra-biblical accounts (the Gospel of Clemente, I believe?) that have some additional stories, but these accounts have widely been dismissed as fabrications. I did read an interesting fiction work on the subject (mere speculation, you understand, but an intriguing read anyways) called Damien. It's the fictional account of Jesus' "Guardian Angel" as a child. Forget the author. But sorry I can't be of more help.
__________________
Winner of 6 FOFC Scribe Awards, including 3 Gold Scribes Founder of the ZFL, 2004 Golden Scribe Dynasty of the Year Now bringing The Des Moines Dragons back to life, and the joke's on YOU, NFL! I came to the Crossroad. I took it. And that has made all the difference. |
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 02:41 PM
|
#95 |
|
n00b
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
|
If you're having questions about your existence, I'd recommend you go see I Heart Huckabees. I can't say it has the answers, but it's still a good movie about the subject.
|
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 11:08 PM
|
#96 |
|
Mascot
Join Date: Jun 2003
|
Way too much to read through here, so I will say only one thing. Find something, put your heart and soul into it. Believe it with everything you got. IF on your death bed you find yourself content with what you done, then the afterlife will take care of itself. You can only do now what you believe is best. But you have to BELIEVE in your heart totally and completely.
For me it is God, but I am not saying that is for you. I hope you at least "give faith a chance." But to me I am content and not worried about death too mcuh because when I die I believe I will go to heaven. I am living my life for a purpose. If I find out I am wrong, oh well, what did it hurt? How was my life less fulfilled? Because I lived a "moral" life? Because I helped others? Because I loved my kids, didn't cheat on my wife, didn't use drugs? Because I sang songs and prayed? If it turns out there is no God I guess I don't see my life as wasted. Heck will I even know it if there is no afterlife? I am just rambling now, but those are just my thoughts. |
|
|
|
|
12-03-2004, 11:35 PM
|
#97 |
|
College Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
|
Just read through all of this. Great to see a civil discussion of the issues in what can easily become a catfight.
I'm curious if anyone can recommend a book that examines the early history of Christianity, written from a historical perspective. The Case for Christ sounds interesting, but I'd like to pick up a couple of books on the subject. I'd also be interested in a book that examines the historical origins of the Bible. Last edited by Godzilla Blitz : 12-03-2004 at 11:35 PM. |
|
|
|
|
12-04-2004, 02:58 AM
|
#98 | |
|
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
Quote:
The classic work is Henry Chadwick's "The Early Church", also Stuart Hall's "Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church" is great, light intro book. For some fun stuff you can't go wrong with any Peter Brown or Wayne Meeks. And for a mind blower, Phillip Esler's "Modelling Early Christianity: Social-Scientific Studies of the New Testament in Its Context" |
|
|
|
|
|
12-07-2004, 10:29 PM
|
#99 |
|
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Great discussion here. For all of my brothers in Christ, blessings to you for publically speaking about our faith.
AENeuman: Blessed are the theologians for they will have the best bibliography! But no mention of Early Latin theology? I thought that was pretty cool. |
|
|
|
|
12-08-2004, 12:16 AM
|
#100 |
|
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Mar 2004
|
Didnt we go through this last year about this time...with superping:Jesus? I am sure glad we can get this started again. If you dont know where you are going when you die and you worry about it, I say that is healthy, because you will be spending alot more time dead than alive, well not in my beliefs but you will spend more time after this earthly life, so be sure it will be good.
|
|
|
|
 |
| Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
| Thread Tools | |
|
|
