Euro 2004 Discussion

[SirFozzie]

Speaking of Heskey, I found this at one of the other boards I hang out at, and found it funny.

VP=VeteranPresence.com , a lowlevel fan site, more toward the humor side of things


On Futbol:

While I very much enjoy seeing some coverage of same on VP; I thought it might be appropriate to introduce readers to some of the work of the first great Internet Futbol Commentator, the great Arthur Thacker. Mr. Thacker (when not writing "At the End of the Day" would offer insights on a player or team in the form of a quiz; not at all unlike the OSJ Fedmark Quiz, but that's neither here nor there); anyway, here's as good a starting point as any...

ARE YOU EMILE HESKEY?

Take the Arthur Thacker quiz and see for yourself.

1. You are through on goal with only the keeper and a defender left to
beat. The last defender is only 5'3" and seven stone. What happens next?

a) You round him easily and take the keeper on one-to-one, then calmly
chip the ball over his head into the empty net.
b) Take the defender on for speed and skin him, then round the keeper
and walk the ball confidently into the goal.
c) The defender accidentally blows on you as he gets within three
yards...and you fall over, flat on your great big fat hairy black arse.
Then it's both arms up and face pulled in the hope that the ref will
give you the most unlikely penalty ever fucking awarded.

2. Would you describe yourself as a prolific goalscorer?

a) Yes.
b) No, but you have scored more than your fair share in your career.
c) Would you fuck. If you're a prolific goalscorer then Mandy Smith's a
beached whale.

3. You are walking down the street one day when a bird shits on you from
overhead. How do you react to this?

a) Smile and see the funny side of it.
b) Wipe it off gingerly and look to the skies in disgust.
c) Fall over on the spot as though you've just been snipered through the
fucking head with a hunting rifle. Then roll over and demand that the
bird be sent off.

4. How quickly can you run the 100 metres?

a) Very quickly, with a best time of 10.3 seconds.
b) Quite fast, though you can only manage it in just over 11 seconds.
c) "Run"? What the fuck is that? You mean fucking waddle along like a
big fat sack of shit on a skateboard....then fall off with ten metres to
go and the clock at four minutes fifty-six.

5. During a match, a high ball is crossed to you in the penalty area.
How do you head the ball?

a) With extreme power and accuracy.
b) Quite powerfully and with some degree of accuracy, though heading has
never been your strongest point.
c) With your arse...because you've been upended again by some three-foot
dwarf defender from Watford. You useless bucket of arse.

6. A long ball is played up to you from defence. It's a fair distance
ahead of you, so what do you do?

a) Get your head down and set off at full pace, reaching it just before
it goes out of play for a goal-kick.
b) Try to make it to the ball, because the cause is never lost. It's
always worth making the effort.
c) Fuck all. Just stand there like a great big fat soft-arsed cunt.
You're not running for no fucking ball, you're not. And why the fuck
should you? Thirty grand a week? Let some other fucker run for what
they're paying you. You might strain a fucking bootlace with all that
effort.

7. During a match you are involved in a bruising challenge with a
smaller player from the opposition. Which of these is the most likely
outcome?

a) The player bounces off your huge frame and knocks himself out, has to
leave the field and is out through injury for several weeks.
b) The opposing player is slightly shaken, though not badly hurt, and
from then on he makes sure he doesn't do it again.
c) You are incongruously bounced fifty feet in the air and land in Row
Z, where you suffer a broken face, three dislocated teeth, a pulled bank
balance and an ego-strain. You fat piece of shit.

8. Your nickname at your former club was "Bruno". Why was this?

a) Because Bruno is such a macho sounding name and goes with your
hulking appearance.
b) Because your aggressive approach reminds you of the old St Bernard
dog off the St Bruno adverts - big, strong, relentless and tough as old
boots.
c) Because of the boxer, Frank Bruno, and the fact that he was a great
big fat useless black twat who kept falling flat on his arse for no
reason as well.

9. What has been the biggest effect since your transfer to your new
club?

a) The higher profile and the greater expectations of the fans.
b) Just the fact that you are playing for one of most famous clubs in
history.
c) Earthquakes in the Merseyside area have increased by 3,000% because
of your great big fat arse hitting the deck so many times. Much more of
it and they'll be pulling the stands down due to foundation damage. You
fat unbalanced clumsy great big fuck.

10. What do you look like in a Liverpool football shirt?

a) Majestic, like you were born to wear it.
b) Ordinary, but once you get on that pitch there's no stopping you as
you give your all for the cause.
c) Like a giant fucking turd that's been left out in the sun too long.
And you're about as mobile as well. Oh, I tell a lie - turds do move
when they start to decompose. It's a very slow process, but it's still
quicker than you, you immobile tub of washed up dolphin shit.

ANSWERS:

Mainly a: You're not Emile Heskey.
Mainly b: Neither are you.
Mainly c: Well done, Emile, and welcome to Liverpool Football Club. It's
a good job Scousers are as thick as shit because no other cunt would
fall for that gag. Ha! Twelve million for a great big fat binbag full of
other folks's waste and pig droppings. No wonder they can smile down in
Leicester. Fuck me, this is revenge for us not taking Frank bastard
Worthington off their hands. And he was a fucking useless sack of twat
as well. Thirty grand a week...for a tub of tar on legs. Jesus Christ.
--
Arthur Thacker

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group C.
Scores:
Denmark 0-0 Italy
Sweden 5-0 Bulgaria

Standings:
1. Sweden 3 pt (5-0)
2. Italy 1 pt (0-0)
3. Denmark 1 pt (0-0)
4. Bulgaria 0 pt (0-5)
Italy hold tiebreakers over Denmark based on WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifying results.

Next up:
Bulgaria-Denmark
Bulgaria has a clear mission, win two out of two to advance, draw one and go home.
Denmark don't need to win this game to stay in the race for the quarterfinals, beating Sweden would be enough to advance.
MIJ scenario: 1-1 draw
Denmark were impressive against Italy, yet Bulgaria will be detirmened. Denmark looks a bit better, yet Bulgaria are not to be underestimated, despite the 0-5 trashing. I suspect a close game with Bulgaria upsetting Denmark a little.

Italy-Sweden
Italy's situation will be mainly based on the other game, Denmark not winning means that Italy advances with a draw here and a victory over Bulgaria.
If Italy beat Sweden, a draw against Bulgaria is enough.
With a draw, Italy needs to beat Bulgaria big, because Denmark-Sweden has spectacle written all over and a 2-2 there could eliminate Italy independant of the goal difference.
Sweden's situation is really simple, a draw in this game could be more then enough to advance, two draws in the remaining games is enough due to the Danish-Italian 0-0 meaning Sweden will always have better tiebreakers.
Also, a Sweden victory would mean a clinched quarterfinals berth, independant of the Scandinavian derby against Denmark.
MIJ scenario: depends on other game
Both teams advance with a victory. With Italy's mission depending on the other game, I have two scenario's for this game.
With a Bulgarian victory or draw, I suspect this game will be a no-lose at all cost game and end in a 1-1 draw.
A Danish victory will require Italy to go for it, which isn't their style. Sweden have no need to attack, but the probably will anyway. Despite that I see Sweden as a semi-finalists, in this scenario I wouldn't be surprised to see Italy steal an undeserved 1-0 victory.

[Alf]

Italy will advance with 3 draws and go on to win it all like in the 82 World Cup... oops, hopes I am wrong, but that could happen !

[Sharpieman]

Man, Italy could be in real big trouble if they lose to Sweden, which is a very good possibility. Ought to be a great match.

[Coder]

SkySports really knows how to predict a game ;-)


Stelling predicts - Sweden v Bulgaria



I'm not going to lie to you. This game is as exciting as a day at Ikea. I'd rather stick pins in my eyes, as Rodney likes to say, than sit down and watch it.

Sweden are an organised side but desperately dull. Olof Mellberg's been in good form and we know what Freddie Ljungberg can do, but I don't see them setting the tournament alight.

People will obviously point the finger at Celtic hero Henrik Larsson and say what a great goalscorer he is. Will the 32-year-old get goals at this level? I'm not sure.

It's one thing banging them in against Partick Thistle and Aberdeen in the Scottish Premier League, but doing it in a European Championship is a different matter.

The one consolation for the Swedes is that they are not facing top quality opposition. And let's face it, you'd rather face Bulgaria than France, Spain or England even.

The Bulgarians, however, are no mugs. They finished top of a group that included Croatia and Belgium and will be hard to beat, though they may not be the most exciting to watch.

They don't really have any stars, Stilian Petrov is their biggest name, but if I put you on the spot right now could you name more than one of their team?

I see this ending goalless so don't expect a classic. You could always pop to Ikea if you don't fancy watching!

[MIJB#19]

11 hours and about 20 minutes before Oranje vs Die Mannschaft.
I hope I get home in time to see the kickoff... :o

The atmosphere here in the Netherlands is really weird. The "fans" and media have been anti-Oranje for half a year, but with the first opponent being archrival Germany, "fans" and media have forgotten they let their national team down half a year ago and are acting "patriotic".

Stupid only-fan-when-we-are-winning-fans...

[Coder]

Well MIJB... I'm holding "The orange" as favourites to win it all.. so good luck to you.

[daedalus]

Gio is starting for the Oranje! Gio is starting! Woohoo! He's no longer a Gunner but through no fault of his own. He tried but bad luck and situations just worked against him (I would have preferred him to Lauren but that's just me) at Highbury. He's one of the ex-Gunners I'll still root for.

I'm still rooting for Holland since I like so many of the players on the team but kind of a tacky place to go for Van Nistelrooij with his comments, though, in my opinion. Meh.

My apologies to the Brits in the house but, despite my general support for England, I was rooting for the French in that game. The Arsenal contingent was only part of the reason. I felt like the English players were talking a lot more trash than the French players were (at least in the various online articles I saw). I hate that crap.

[Alf]

MIJB, I am wearing an orange T-Shirt today (really flashy Orange). I purchased this T-Shirt last week just for this game vs Germany (I hate Germany since the 1982 Schumacher incident...).

Go Netherlands !

[Crapshoot]

SF, I could have done without the general racial overtones to the Emile Heskey thing, but it was somewhat amusing. THat being said, I halvent heard of an English fan that has anything good to say about Heskey, but there isn'
t a coach who badmouths him- and in this case, Im more willing to chalk it up to the average fan's ignorance as opposed to coaches from Erickson to Bruce to Ancellotti (Milan wanted to take him on loan last year, as did Lyon). He's not a prolific goalscorer, and never will be- but really, that's not his role.

Different Issue: Most impressive player you've seen so far ?
For me, its Vicente- watching the Spain game and watching him get the entire Russian backline booked was amazing - the man has an engine that doesnt stop, and some amazing skill. Arsenal are going to regret spending their 17 million quid on Reyes instead of him. Zidane is to be considered, but really, his brilliance was in a 5 minute spell- Vincente played the best game ive seen so far (I've watched all of them except the Croatia-Swiss one)..

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by daedalus

I'm still rooting for Holland since I like so many of the players on the team but kind of a tacky place to go for Van Nistelrooij with his comments, though, in my opinion. Meh.

Stupid German journalists.
When the Dutch finally stop comparing the game with WWII, some moron butchers Van Nistelrooij's words (he was referring to WC74, not WWII) into something stupid.

On the other comments, I see other board members are wearing more orange then I will all day.

[SirFozzie]

That wasn't me.. that was me quoting someone else quoting England's equivalent of Bill Simmons.

Heskey.. is not a popular man over there. In fact, football365.com did a poster to mock Heskey. It's motto is simple. "Warning: Emile Heskey" with the picture of a guy falling on his backside (ie diving).

Also reminds me of the mock ad campaign Gunner fans (Arsenal, Man Utd's rival) put together during the Rio Ferdinand brouhaha..

"Vodafone introduced the Rio Ferdannd cell phone today. It's big, black, ugly, and takes six months to charge the fecker."

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Coder

Well MIJB... I'm holding "The orange" as favourites to win it all.. so good luck to you.

I've been tipping Sweden as finalists, providing they can avoid the NLs in the quarterfinals...

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

That wasn't me.. that was me quoting someone else quoting England's equivalent of Bill Simmons.

Heskey.. is not a popular man over there. In fact, football365.com did a poster to mock Heskey. It's motto is simple. "Warning: Emile Heskey" with the picture of a guy falling on his backside (ie diving).

Also reminds me of the mock ad campaign Gunner fans (Arsenal, Man Utd's rival) put together during the Rio Ferdinand brouhaha..

"Vodafone introduced the Rio Ferdannd cell phone today. It's big, black, ugly, and takes six months to charge the fecker."

-I apologize for the confusion - I know you didn't write it, and I was just referring to the article in general,and my thoughts on Heskey.

[3ric]

LOL @ Fozzie's Ferdinand joke. Good one.

I got a funny video clip in the inbox the other day, and thought I'd share - it's supposed to be a video from one of the Euro2004 teams practicing...
ddb_gdnp140_030_small.mpg

[Alf]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

On the other comments, I see other board members are wearing more orange then I will all day.

I will take a picture (although I am not shaved...)

On another note, I have my excel prediction sheet for the EURO that I did before going on vacation. Can I still submit it to you ? I had France win 2-1 & Spain 1-0 but had Portigal win 2-0 . If yes, PM me your email address. Thanks

[scooter]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Different Issue: Most impressive player you've seen so far ?
For me, its Vicente- watching the Spain game and watching him get the entire Russian backline booked was amazing - the man has an engine that doesnt stop, and some amazing skill. Arsenal are going to regret spending their 17 million quid on Reyes instead of him. Zidane is to be considered, but really, his brilliance was in a 5 minute spell- Vincente played the best game ive seen so far (I've watched all of them except the Croatia-Swiss one)..

I was impressed with both of Spain's wingers (Vincente and Etxeberria). Their ability to get wide and run at defenders is frightening. I don't get to see Spanish football, so they were a big surprise.

Rooney was a bright spot in the England game. His power and balance really helped hold up the ball so they could get a couple chances.

I was also surprised by Charisteas for Greece. In that game against Portugal, he was a real threat every time he touched the ball. He was big and strong and moved with good balance and pace. (I realise it was probably Portugal's defense that made him look so good, but he did impress).

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by 3ric

LOL @ Fozzie's Ferdinand joke. Good one.

I got a funny video clip in the inbox the other day, and thought I'd share - it's supposed to be a video from one of the Euro2004 teams practicing...
ddb_gdnp140_030_small.mpg

Today I got a joke in my mail box:

A guy parks his car on a parking lot.
Comes another guy dressed in orange all over to him and says:
"Haven't you heard? The German football team has been kidnapped".
The other man responds: "No I haven't, what's up?"
"Well, the kidnappers want 10 million US dollars, or else they soak them with gasoline."
"Wow!"
"Yeah, and now I'm collecting, do you want to share your part?"
Says the first guy: "What do must people give, if I may ask?"
The guy in orange: "Well, most are willing to give about 5 liters."

[HornedFrog Purple]

Listening to BBC the last couple of days, they were playing up that France was the best team in the world. I thought that Brazil was?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

Listening to BBC the last couple of days, they were playing up that France was the best team in the world. I thought that Brazil was?

They were protecting themselves, in case England would lose to the "best" team in the world.

At least it's a smarter move then the other-end-of-the-world situation over here with people talking about Germany as if they are on the level of Cyprus, Estonia or Iceland...

[Celeval]

FYI, it looks like the the Germany - Netherlands live audio commentary (match at 19.45 (4:45 EDT)) is listed as free at http://www.euro2004.com/video/index.html .

[Celeval]

Dola... as are at least a handful of the archived audio. Unless audio is free all the time and I didn't know it, in which case, just ignore me. :-D

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by Alf

(I hate Germany since the 1982 Schumacher incident...).

Go Netherlands !

Ditto.

(I guess we're around the same age Alf...)

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

That wasn't me.. that was me quoting someone else quoting England's equivalent of Bill Simmons.

Heskey.. is not a popular man over there. In fact, football365.com did a poster to mock Heskey. It's motto is simple. "Warning: Emile Heskey" with the picture of a guy falling on his backside (ie diving).

Also reminds me of the mock ad campaign Gunner fans (Arsenal, Man Utd's rival) put together during the Rio Ferdinand brouhaha..

"Vodafone introduced the Rio Ferdannd cell phone today. It's big, black, ugly, and takes six months to charge the fecker."

Yeah, if Bill Simmons swore like a sailor and used racially questionable jokes. Although I did find the general idea of it funny.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Aadik

SF, I could have done without the general racial overtones to the Emile Heskey thing, but it was somewhat amusing. THat being said, I halvent heard of an English fan that has anything good to say about Heskey, but there isn'
t a coach who badmouths him- and in this case, Im more willing to chalk it up to the average fan's ignorance as opposed to coaches from Erickson to Bruce to Ancellotti (Milan wanted to take him on loan last year, as did Lyon). He's not a prolific goalscorer, and never will be- but really, that's not his role.

So you don't trust your own eyes? Haven't you ever heard of the Ewing theory?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/010509.html

In Heskey's case, I wouldn't flag him a superstar, although I suppose you could since the braintrust in England seems to think him worthy of playing internationally. I guarantee Liverpool will play better without him this season and Boro will be worse. I noticed that he's a big clod and I only caught a few games on Fox this season.

[Katon]

Kind of hard to see how Middlesborough will be affected by the fact that he's signed for Birmingham. I also think he's overrated, and it's not that I haven't seen what all those managers see in him - watch this season's Chelsea-Liverpool game at the Bridge to see exactly what he's supposed to be all about. The problem is that the number of matches in which Heskey plays like that is somewhat less than the number of matches where he is completely and utterly useless.

[bbor]

Deutchland Uber Alles!!!!

Although i think we( i use that term loosly as i am Canadian but both my folks are fresh off the boat) suck.

Losing to Hungary 5-1 in the last game gave me no confidence.

[atatange1]

Originally Posted by Celeval

FYI, it looks like the the Germany - Netherlands live audio commentary (match at 19.45 (4:45 EDT)) is listed as free at http://www.euro2004.com/video/index.html .

You can listen to all games live for free on BBC Five Live.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by bbor

Deutchland Uber Alles!!!!

Although i think we( i use that term loosly as i am Canadian but both my folks are fresh off the boat) suck.

Losing to Hungary 5-1 in the last game gave me no confidence.

Losing 5-1 to Romania and 2-0 to Hungary you mean?

[Alf]

Game ended 1-1, a tie between Holland & Germany. Nice game, watched it with my wife, and was happy that she said, what, already finished : that's a sign of a good non-boring game.

But these Germans are brutes ! Especially in their own penalty box where they were holding Holland forwards all the time... and no penalties... That's what bugs me in football

[MIJB#19]

Scenario in group D.
Scores:
Latvia 1-2 Czech Republic
Netherlands 1-1 Germany

Standings:
1. Czech Republic 3 pt (2-1)
2. Germany 1 pt (1-1)
3. Netherlands 1 pt (1-1)
4. Latvia 0 pt (1-2)
Germany hold tiebreakers over Netherlands based on WC2002 and Euro2004 qualifying results.

Next up:
Germany-Latvia
Germany could live with a draw mathematically, but mentally a victory is a need.
For Germany, a loss won't even be the end of the tournament, but then a victory against the strong Czechs is a need.
Latvia need a victory to stay in the race, without a question, but mentally they will probably settle for a draw.
On the other hand, the close loss could be another eyeopener for the Latvians that they can upset even the best European teams.
MIJ scenario: 1-0 Latvia
The Germans want to win, the Latvians dream of a draw. I've felt that this game could be the major upset of the tournament for a long time now and I will go with the upset score. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking.

Czech Republic-Netherlands
A Czech victory would immediatly clinch a quarterfinals berth.
The Czechs escaped against Latvia, but will also advance if they draw 1-1 in this game and don't lose against Germany.
The Netherlands actually need to win this game, or else a wild 2-2 or 3-3 in the Czech-German game could end the orange hopes.
The Dutch have some rivalry with the Czechs to settle over qualifying games, yet the Czechs still suffer from a 1-0 last minute penalty kick loss in the Euro2000 matchup.
MIJ scenario: 3-2 Netherlands
The Dutch are slow starters, yet the second game is often the turnaround game. The Czech Republic is happy with the 3 points, but this rivalry is motivation enough. Since the game is a late evening game, I suspect that this could be a goal-loaded game, with one side winning 3-2. With my "patriotic" feelings, I predict a Dutch revange, the Czechs will have to wait for the Euro2004 final.

[bbor]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Losing 5-1 to Romania and 2-0 to Hungary you mean?

Yes...that too

Not a bad gane by the Germans...better than i had expected.

[scooter]

The Germans have to have felt a let down after giving away a late goal for the tie. They deserved the win. They were their normal disiplined selves at the back (with a lot of help from a lenient ref - way too much grabbing and holding). If van Nistelrooy hadn't scored on that chance, I think he should have been awarded a penalty as he was tackled by Nowotny. I still don't know how he got that to go in. People talk about how great Van der Sar is, but I am not impressed. He seemed tenative and shaky throughout. He kind of reminded me of Seaman two years ago at the World Cup.

The Czechs have to feel lucky to have salvaged a win. Latvia impressed me with their ability to break down the left hand side. Rubins looked dangerous on a couple of occasions. I don't think they will be able to do that against Germany (with Friedrich there). The Czechs seemed to be "on the power play" all day. I was waiting for Nedved to start banging his stick on the ice to get him the puck. Credit to Latvia's defense for essentially shutting down Jan Koller too.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by scooter

The Germans have to have felt a let down after giving away a late goal for the tie. They deserved the win. They were their normal disiplined selves at the back (with a lot of help from a lenient ref - way too much grabbing and holding). If van Nistelrooy hadn't scored on that chance, I think he should have been awarded a penalty as he was tackled by Nowotny. I still don't know how he got that to go in. People talk about how great Van der Sar is, but I am not impressed. He seemed tenative and shaky throughout. He kind of reminded me of Seaman two years ago at the World Cup.

Maybe it's in my blood, but my opinion is very different:
1. The German goal was a freak goal.
2. Oranje playing with 6 left-footed midfielders doesn't work.
3. Not fielding a right-midfielder makes the right-wing attacker look lik Robinson Crusoe.
4. Marc Overmars still has what it takes to scare the opposing defense.
5. Germany are unable to defend a lead.
6. Schweinsteiger is a dangerous player.
7. Van der Sar looked confident as usual.
8. The last 25 minutes showed that Germany can't handle pressure.
9. The last 25 mninutes showed that the Dutch can pressure, despite the all-out-defense opposition.
10. Once again this game proved that the Netherlands are at their worst in the first game of the tournament.
11. If 10 is true, I am very optimistic with our chances to get deep into the tournament.

EDIT: added the italic words to statement 3 to end the sentence...

[MIJB#19]

MIJ order of strength:
01 France - great play, yet the escape was a one-in-a-million. The kind of escape only eventual champs get.
02 Sweden - 5-0, all strikers happy, amazing performance. But being at your best on day 3 of a 3-week tournament will cost you later on...
03 Italy - Classic Italian play was awarded with just one point, un-Italian like. But Italy are slow starters.
04 Netherlands - Still puzzling with the line-up, narrow escape in game one. The Dutch are just like in the previous tournaments they played: semifinals material.
05 Czech Replubic - Hyped as potential champs, escaped against the weakest of all 16 teams. Surviving the group stage could be harder then anticipated.
06 Spain - Young and talented, but one goal against Russia was too little.
07 Danmark - Fun to watch, unlucky in results. This could be another group stage knockout like in 1996 and 2000.
08 England - Example number of choking? Be glad that reaching the quarterfinals is still in own hands.
09 Portugal - What happened, are Figo and co really dropping fast?
10 Croatia - Failed to slaughter the Swiss in the heat, they might not be the expected darkhorses.
11 Germany - The WC2002 runners-up were the worst German team ever fielded. Never underestimate Germany, like I do now...
12 Greece - The upset of the tournament in the opening game and the weaker opponents to go. Is this the surpirse quarterfinalist?
13 Switzerland - Survived a 10 vs. 11 situation against Croatia. But what happened on that free kick?
14 Russia - With the best player sent home, this is the Russia we are familiair with, a team to fear. Too bad the defence is still too young and unexperienced...
15 Latvia - The little kid grew up fast, yet was learned a hard lesson.
16 Bulgaria - Can they overcome the 0-5 trashing? I highly doubt it.

[Alf]

Nice analysis as usual Matthijs

[Crapshoot]

Van NistelRooy was amazing- the fact that the Dutch even managed a draw given the bonehead that is Advocaat is impressive enough. For starters, why the hell do you start a bonafide Winger (Zenden) in a deep, central midfield paring with Davids ? Then, you put Bouma, an iffy fullback in central defense instead of Heitenga, who's played there all season ? you Secondly, why on earth do you abandon the 4-3-3 and instead put Van De Merdye up front with Van Nistelrooy ? IF you want a second, non Kluivert striker- play Makaay- he's supposed to be fairly decent. I thought they looked better once VanHoodldonk came on, as it let Van De Merdyde drop to as a conventional right sided winger, with Overmars on the left. '

In summary, I think if the Dutch win, it will be in spite of Advocaat- this is a man who spent 65 million pounds when at Rangers and still managed to lose a title to Celtic...

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Maybe it's in my blood, but my opinion is very different:
1. The German goal was a freak goal.
2. Oranje playing with 6 left-footed midfielders doesn't work.
3. Not fielding a right-midfielder makes the right-wing attacker.
4. Marc Overmars still has what it takes to scare the opposing defense.
5. Germany are unable to defend a lead.
6. Schweinsteiger is a dangerous player.
7. Van der Sar looked confident as usual.
8. The last 25 minutes showed that Germany can't handle pressure.
9. The last 25 mninutes showed that the Dutch can pressure, despite the all-out-defense opposition.
10. Once again this game proved that the Netherlands are at their worst in the first game of the tournament.
11. If 10 is true, I am very optimistic with our chances to get deep into the tournament.

1. Agreed- but see my previous post- what the hell is Bouma doing playing CD when Heitenga is there ?
2. Absolutely- Zenden being the shining example
3. I thought a 3 man front line with Robben on the left, and Van De Merdye on the right would have made the most sense.
4. Absolutely.me
5. The German central defense came in with questions, and failed to answer them- they have more flair than the past, but more fraility as well.
6. Looked the best German player of the game in his limited exposure- Bayern Munich would do well to lock him up.
7.Eh- The goal was his fault, ultimately, as he is the goalie and the man in charge- I dont know about that.
8 and 9. Well, I don't know- For most of the first 70 minutes or so, the Germans looked like the better team- the Dutch passing was horrific, especially by their standards. Suffice to say that eventually they had to come good, and they did. More so Schweinsteiger was 9 inches from making it 2-1 Germany on that breakaway...
10 and 11. Agreed, but I don't know how they will do against a solid, defensive team- thankfully, none exist in their group, but an Italy/Denmark seems like it would cause the Dutch trouble.

[Coder]

One thing that the commentators in Sweden pointed out, was that the Dutch players didn't talk to each other when being down by one. No pep-talking among teammates, no encouraging words "come on, we can do it" etc.. something which they pointed out that Germans are usually good at when being down by a goal. Is this something you saw last night as well?

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Aadik

Then, you put Bouma, an iffy fullback in central defense instead of Heitenga, who's played there all season ? you Secondly, why on earth do you abandon the 4-3-3 and instead put Van De Merdye up front with Van Nistelrooy ? IF you want a second, non Kluivert striker- play Makaay- he's supposed to be fairly decent. I thought they looked better once VanHoodldonk came on, as it let Van De Merdyde drop to as a conventional right sided winger, with Overmars on the left. '

Aadik, I agree with some of your points, but on the defensive issue I do dare to defend Advocaat's decission yesterday.
Heitinga and Stam are great defenders, but only on the right side of the centre, not on the left. Knowing that, there are very few candidates to play left central defender:
1. Phillip Cocu - could play there, but was needed to mark Ballack on the midfield.
2. Frank de Boer - is written off and only selected as a hommage as being the most capped Dutchman.
3. "Fredje" Bouma - still new to the position as he saw a weird career starting at striker and then slowly went from left winger to left midfielder to leftback to left central defender.

Sadly, there are very no Dutch defenders who are better then this at left central defender, except the one-and-a-half year long and not back to old form Kevin Hofland.

Now start wondering why on earth it took me 90 minutes to finish this reply...

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Coder

One thing that the commentators in Sweden pointed out, was that the Dutch players didn't talk to each other when being down by one. No pep-talking among teammates, no encouraging words "come on, we can do it" etc.. something which they pointed out that Germans are usually good at when being down by a goal. Is this something you saw last night as well?

Typical Dutchmen, terrible motivators.
usually, Davids takes the load of the pep-talking, but he wasn't there in the second half.

Additionally, the Dutch players can't stop talking about how much they are more a team then ever before, yet there are no signals or what-so-ever to defend it...

Crucial could be the fact that this team is (more then in the previous tournmanets) a team with almost retiring players and a new generation coming in.
With Van der Sar, Waterreus, Stam, Cocu, Overmars, De Boer, Van Hooijdonk being the old guys up for retiuring their Oranje-career.
With Heitinga, Sneijder, Van der Vaart, Bouma and Robben as the new generation.

But maybe it all has to do with the Dutch media- Oranje players relationship being at an all time low point.

[Alf]

Overmars should have started. All the play was on that side, and it's even funny to note that the orange goal came from the other wing

[Coder]

Overmars was great, absolutely... lots of high balls on van Nistelroy that I didn't understand though.. he was out-duelled in the air all the time by the German defense, yet they kept feeding him high balls.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Alf

Overmars should have started. All the play was on that side, and it's even funny to note that the orange goal came from the other wing

I disagree.
Overmars's physical health alows only 45 minutes of good play, you'd better use them in the second half then.
Robben wasn't game fit so the obvious replacement was Zenden.

Putting Davids, Van der Vaart and Cocu in one midfield is the thing that made Van der Meyde impossible to reach, yet Zenden's side overcrowded to make it impossible to make his moves. Davids on the left was invisible, VdVaart in the middle was lwalking to the left too much and on paper right midfielder Cocu was walking at the centre to mark Ballack all day, obviously creating a gap.
I remember a situation very typical for the first half. Heitinga had the ball on the right side close to the middle line, yet all the teammates were either on the left side of the field (Van Bronckhorst, Davids, Cocu, Zenden, Vd Vaart), at the back (Stam, Vd Sar, Bouma) or covered by two man and too far away (Van Nistelrooij, VD Meyde).

Start of game

...........Van Nistelrooij....Van der Meyde
Zenden..Van der Vaart......................
...Davids..................................
...............Cocu........................
Bronckhorst..Bouma......Stam.....Heitinga..
...........Van der Sar.....................

Start of second half

Overmars...Van Nistelrooij....Van der Meyde
.......Van der Vaart.......................
...........................Sneijder........
...............Cocu........................
Bronckhorst..Bouma......Stam.....Heitinga..
...........Van der Sar.....................

End of game

...........Van Nistelrooij.................
Overmars....Van Hooijdonk.....Van der Meyde
....Van der Vaart..........Sneijder........
...............Cocu........................
....Bronckhorst.......Bouma......Stam......
...........Van der Sar.....................

[HornedFrog Purple]

Being naive and from the US, I just don't see why France is being regarded as this good and #1. They did nothing in the World Cup, they were outplayed for 2/3rds of the England game (in my opinion), though they did win.

I watched the Germany game, and they look too old. But they are Germany and they always seem to stick around. I just can't stand watching their style of play especially when they get a lead but it works for them.

[scooter]

Well, France has won two of the last three big tournaments. They are also the reigning European champs. That being said, it's a lot like Tiger Woods still being ranked #1 in the world. What have you done for me lately?

I thought the Dutch looked like the more dangerous side for the first 20 minutes or so, and then the Germans settled into their gameplan. Yes, the Germans scored a weird goal, but I thought they defended well. Their overlapping play on the wings (Frings-Lahm and Schneider-Friedrich) was very good organized. The Dutch went for long periods of the second half where they could not get the ball back from the Germans. The Dutch did not seem to be playing very well, and when you aren't playing very well there are always two sides to it: the Dutch had first game jitters or the Germans knocked them off their game. I think some of the later contributed to some of the former.

Don't get me wrong though, I was pulling for the Dutch the whole time. I would like to see them play well as they have some of the most exciting players in the tournament.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Katon

Kind of hard to see how Middlesborough will be affected by the fact that he's signed for Birmingham. I also think he's overrated, and it's not that I haven't seen what all those managers see in him - watch this season's Chelsea-Liverpool game at the Bridge to see exactly what he's supposed to be all about. The problem is that the number of matches in which Heskey plays like that is somewhat less than the number of matches where he is completely and utterly useless.

Exactly. So they get the taste and they're like crack heads, completely out of their minds and illogical.

I did see highlights of that game on Fox Sports World. It's hilarious, because their commentator doesn't like his play either and takes any chance he can get to insult him.

[B & B]

Looking for under 2' goals in the Spain Greece game.

[3ric]

I'm totally in awe about how good Spain's right winger Joaquin is! Everybody's been raving about Vicente, for good reasons, but this guy is even better...

[B & B]

Fully expect Portugal to emerge victorious over Russia in the next one.