Bill Cosby ruffles some feathers.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

John,

While I understand your position, I think it is flawed. When you speak to a customer or a vendor at work, do you use expletives? When you go to the store and ask to speak to a customer service representative, do you want someone who speaks the "King's" English, or someone that speaks colloquially?

In 10 years of work in sales, I have spoken to people around the world. Let me tell you, it is very difficult to speak to people from other parts of the world. There are different accents on the words, different tones of voice, and even different sentence structure. It is very difficult to talk these people (not a bad thing, it just takes a lot of work to listen to them).

When looking for a job, selling a product, talking to a friend, and giving a speech, you must tailor your message to the crowd you are talking to. This has nothing to do with prejudice or discrimination, it is about effectively communicating with your audience. If you make it easier for them to listen, it is easier to get your message across and leave them with something to think about.

Don't try to use the extreme to prove the rule. No one is saying four letter words are acceptable in a business environment. I'm saying when someone says "axe" instead of "ask" or says "ya'll" instead of "you all," it shouldn't be as big of deal as people make it to be. I'm just fighting the notion that there is only 1 form of English in our world now, but that doesn't mean any variation on English should be acceptable.

[John Galt]

dola, I also should note I'm only talking in terms of spoken English - written English is a whole separate issue.

[Rizon]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

From the time I was very young, my parents made it very clear that it was fine to talk "black" around the kids in the neighborhood, etc., but in order to be successful we needed "learn how to talk around white folks." (That was exactly how they put it.) That seems so simple to me.

A funny anecdote: a few months after I started on Young Life staff, my brother called me at the office one day. When I got off the phone, I noticed a co-worker looking at me with a puzzled look. I asked what was up, and I could tell he was a little uncomfortable, but finally he just said, "I had no idea you could talk black!" I busted out laughing when I realized that when on the phone with family, I just naturally moved from one "language" to the other without even knowing it.

Shortly after we started dating, my wife commented on the same thing about me. Even funnier to her is that when she is the only white person present, everyone in my family talks very "black", but when we're in majority white settings, we'll all use standard English. She commented that she figured it would be the case but it was still very "different" for her to hear my brothers and sister speaking erudite standard English after hearing, "Ben, why you ain't called me in like two months? You be too busy to talk to yo' own sistah?" for example. The final moment in her "education" in this area was a couple of months ago. She used to be a branch manager for a large bank. The V.P. who hired her was black, and often worked out of an office in the branch that she managed. (As is so happens, he grew up in the same home town as I did and was friends with my older siblings...) One Sunday recently, we visited the church that he attends, so we were in a virtually all-black environment. It was a quite a surprise for her to her to hear an MBA-Bank-VP-dot-every-I-cross-every-T guy like him speaking as "black" as her often-uneducated birth mothers that she works with now.

I dated a black girl who couldn't speak black at all. I had to teach her everything. It would have made a great movie.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Excuse me, but that is a great big steaming pile of pure bullshit. My father grew up in utter poverty, and my mother wasn't well-off, either. They grew up in the South as poor black folks in the 20's and 30's. No one anywhere can ever make any claim that there was anything "privileged" about my parents. Somehow, they learned to use this "privileged form," though, and made dadgum sure that their children learned to use it as well.

Note again that I didn't say that "proper English" shouldn't be taught (in fact I said the exact opposite). And I am not saying that people who speak "proper English" are privileged in all aspects of their life. My only point is that "proper English" is the privileged form of language and those who use it have a leg up as a result. That is all well and good, but sometimes there is a negative effect on race through langauge as well (as my "English only" law example above illustrates).

[Noop]

So basically from what I gather I have to change who I am to get a job? I get it. Because on this board I can speak slang because no one would understand what they hell I am talking about. Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.

[Noop]

I agree with John by the way.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Noop

Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.

Neither of them would get the job.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Personally, my opinion of a potential hire falls dramatically with grammatical errors on his/her resume. To me, it shows a lack of attention (or a lack of caring about) detail, which is important in nearly EVERY career path.

I guess I don't agree that it always shows a lack of attentiion to detail. In some cases it may just be the person in question doesn't always know the grammar rules. Now if you are hiring a professional writer clearly this is a problem. Even if you are hiring someone who will only be writing things occasionally, but it is still an important part of their job then it is a problem.

However in my line of work the ability to even write a coherent senetence falls well below the ability to write good code or to maintain servers. I know several very talented computer programmers who don't write very well and make many of the mistakes that have been mentioned in the various grammar rant threads around here. However they are excellent at their job and it would have been a shame for them to not have been given the chance because of a few mistakes on their resume. With that being said it also wouldn't have been shocking if they hadn't been given those chances.

[cartman]

The people here in the UK don't like it when I tell them that just because the language is named after your country, doesn't mean you speak it correctly!

On the continent, most people I speak with say that they learn British English in school, but prefer American English.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Yes, I would say it is a form of prejudice. That is a form we all naturally have. My only point is that we should try to fight that natural prejudice toward the familiar and learn to accept a wide varieties of English.

Yet you go on about the spanish speaking person being discriminated against. Are we saying spanish is a variety of english now?

The fact is, to be successful in any job you need to be able to communicate well be it with co-workers, the public, whoever. If you can't communicate then you aren't going to be employed there for very long.

Of course the one going on and on about this being discrimination IS a lawyer, he does want more business afterall.

[kserra]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And I won't even point out that the slippery slope is a fallacy.

Please do...

there is nothing racist in requiring that someone speak "proper" English in a professional setting...just as there is nothing wrong in requiring people to use correct grammar and punctuation in writing...

There needs to be a line drawn between how we speak to our friends/family in a private setting, and the language we use in a professional setting...this line is for everyone...and does not attack any one group...

Again, frat boys just out of college cannot speak as they wish in an office, a high school intern must adjust her language as well, I cannot use language that may be deemed offensive in my classroom, etc...

If we begin to accept that there are other ways of speaking in a proper setting, where do we draw the line? If we tell employers to stop being racists in judging a young black man who speaks street slang in the interview, shouldn't the employer also have to excuse the unique language that many frat boys use as well? This is the slope I see...

Kevin

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Noop

How so? If I am a lawyer I would defend my client the very same way some who is equal to me but instead choses to speak proper english. Another point you will lose potential clients by not hiring the best people no matter what... Business is all about profit because if you not in it for profit you need a new career.

If you had a lawyer who couldn't be clearly understood by either the judges or the jury then that would surely affect his ability to work for his clients?

In a similar manner in business there is generally a lot of competition, if say 4 vendors are offering me deals and I can understand 3 of them and one of the deals seem the best then I'll generally dismiss a fourth if I can't understand the terms (whether for legalise or because they're communicating in a way I don't comprehend), often in business things have to be implemented fairly quickly and any impediment to things will often cause a proposal to be dropped - this is simply a fact of life which I'm sure happens in pretty much all businesses.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Neither of them would get the job.

Cerbuis Perusbus(sp?) Crap I can spell it but I am talking about those two only and the company needs to hire someone.

[HornedFrog Purple]

So basically from what I gather I have to change who I am to get a job? I get it.

No noop, you have to change who they want you to be. They want you to fail so they can say "Just another black kid." This probably doesn't make sense to you now, but it will.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by Noop

Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.

Aside from the fact that your point is a different discussion. I just wanted to point out that in any of the offices I have worked in over the years if a white kid and black kid showed up for a job interview and they spoke slang throught the entire interview neither one of them would have been offered the job.

Edit: Crap cthomer already said this.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

No noop, you have to change who they want you to be. They want you to fail so they can say "Just another black kid." This probably doesn't make sense to you now, but it will.

That has to be the stupidest most racist thing I've seen in this thread. Thank you for classifying every potential employer as a white racist.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Noop

Cerbuis Perusbus(sp?) Crap I can spell it but I am talking about those two only and the company needs to hire someone.

In this mythical fantasy land, I don't know who gets hired then. It would likely depend on the type of company, the location of the company, and the type of clients they interact with.


If this is the real world, there are hundreds of other applicants who are more qualified.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Yet you go on about the spanish speaking person being discriminated against. Are we saying spanish is a variety of english now?

The fact is, to be successful in any job you need to be able to communicate well be it with co-workers, the public, whoever. If you can't communicate then you aren't going to be employed there for very long.

Of course the one going on and on about this being discrimination IS a lawyer, he does want more business afterall.

Read my example again. The problem was that language was being used as a proxy for race discrimination. Spanish isn't English, but Hispanic Americans were fired while whites speaking "foreign" words were not.

And I don't litigate anything in this area, so I have no selfish motive for any of it.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

No noop, you have to change who they want you to be. They want you to fail so they can say "Just another black kid." This probably doesn't make sense to you now, but it will.

Aye, I wanted to say something like that but I am quite sure I have said alot of things that will make folks attack me again. It is setup for you to ignore your past in order to make it... I want to rise up against "The Man!!!"



noop

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by kserra

Please do...

there is nothing racist in requiring that someone speak "proper" English in a professional setting...just as there is nothing wrong in requiring people to use correct grammar and punctuation in writing...

There needs to be a line drawn between how we speak to our friends/family in a private setting, and the language we use in a professional setting...this line is for everyone...and does not attack any one group...

Again, frat boys just out of college cannot speak as they wish in an office, a high school intern must adjust her language as well, I cannot use language that may be deemed offensive in my classroom, etc...

If we begin to accept that there are other ways of speaking in a proper setting, where do we draw the line? If we tell employers to stop being racists in judging a young black man who speaks street slang in the interview, shouldn't the employer also have to excuse the unique language that many frat boys use as well? This is the slope I see...

Kevin

Read what I said again. I NEVER said people shouldn't speak professionally in a professional environment. My point is that the focus on "proper English" and conceptions of what are proper accents often cloak discrimination. That doesn't mean EVERYTHING GOES.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by Chubby

That has to be the stupidest most racist thing I've seen in this thread. Thank you for classifying every potential employer as a white racist.

Sorry Chubby you swung and missed.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Read my example again. The problem was that language was being used as a proxy for race discrimination. Spanish isn't English, but Hispanic Americans were fired while whites speaking "foreign" words were not.

And I don't litigate anything in this area, so I have no selfish motive for any of it.

It's not race discrimination, if some white guy who grew up in Mexico that spoke spanish it'd be the same thing. It has nothing to do with their race but the ability to effectivly comunicate.

[kserra]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

In this mythical fantasy land, I don't know who gets hired then. It would likely depend on the type of company, the location of the company, and the type of clients they interact with.


If this is the real world, there are hundreds of other applicants who are more qualified.

yup, in that case, the position would go unfilled for a while...

and I also appreciate the post just a few up deeming all white employers as racists...thanks...did it ever occur to you that some (not all) white employers do judge the applicants on their qualifications...and some even think that having a diversified workplace is something to strive for?

Kevin

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

If you had a lawyer who couldn't be clearly understood by either the judges or the jury then that would surely affect his ability to work for his clients?

In a similar manner in business there is generally a lot of competition, if say 4 vendors are offering me deals and I can understand 3 of them and one of the deals seem the best then I'll generally dismiss a fourth if I can't understand the terms (whether for legalise or because they're communicating in a way I don't comprehend), often in business things have to be implemented fairly quickly and any impediment to things will often cause a proposal to be dropped - this is simply a fact of life which I'm sure happens in pretty much all businesses.

Don't conflate complete incomprehensibility with having to learn varieties of English. In America it is too easy to dismiss others who speak differently with out making some effort. That is where I have a problem.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

Sorry Chubby you swung and missed.

No no, you're right. They all want to say "just another black kid" right?

Racist and I called you out on it.

Are there people that may say that? Sure, but to make such a general statement is wrong.

[Noop]

If it is not racists what is it? Selective hiring?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by wig

I love Bill Cosby now.

Agreed.

At some point in time, it became fashionable and politically correct to embrace warped "dialects" of the English language. Why? What's the problem with expecting everyone to speak one language, and to do so properly? Turn off the damned television, stop listening to the damned music, and read a damned book already.

[Warhammer]

Actually John, there are times when using expletives at work is necessary. Again, I go back to my experience in sales. When I am making a service call out in Virginia or the Carolinas and meet with the maintenance people at an industrial plant, proper use of them is essential to build repoire with them. Since many of them are from the navy, learning to talk like a sailor is important .

It is amazing what a well timed expletive can do. I normally do not use them as I think they are better ways of expressing yourself, but the other day, one of my long time customers was trying to pressure me into giving them a discount due to delays in shipment. The delays were due to their constant revisions to their order. After listening to them for 10 minutes, I laid in to them. "These units would not have been late if you guys could make up your #$%@#%$ minds and quit changing the %#$ $%$! requirements every other $%#%$# day we could have shipped by the original date!"
Not only did we not have to give them a discount, we actually got some overages due to the extra work we went through on the job.

Seriously though, some times it is very necessary to talk the talk. My point is everyone should speak "proper" English unless the situation dictates otherwise (being with family, friends, etc.).

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Chubby

It's not race discrimination, if some white guy who grew up in Mexico that spoke spanish it'd be the same thing. It has nothing to do with their race but the ability to effectivly comunicate.

Chubby, you prove yet again that you don't want to hear what anyone else has to say. Of course it is the same in Mexico. That is EXACTLY why language becomes a proxy for race discrimination. Race and language are often (but not always) tied together.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Chubby

No no, you're right. They all want to say "just another black kid" right?

Racist and I called you out on it.

Are there people that may say that? Sure, but to make such a general statement is wrong.

Since you in the mood for name calling I think your one myself. And I called you on it.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by Chubby

No no, you're right. They all want to say "just another black kid" right?

Racist and I called you out on it.

Are there people that may say that? Sure, but to make such a general statement is wrong.

Nope.

You have no idea what I am talking about, so quit making a fool of yourself.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Don't conflate complete incomprehensibility with having to learn varieties of English. In America it is too easy to dismiss others who speak differently with out making some effort. That is where I have a problem.

So, people should be able to talk however they want in any setting? We should have 1/2 the high school math class talking in spanish and the other half in english? Of course, that'd be "race discrimination" to you if we don't allow it...

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

Nope.

You have no idea what I am talking about, so quit making a fool of yourself.

Oh ok, so please enlighten me oh knowledgeable one...

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Noop

Since you in the mood for name calling I think your one myself. And I called you on it.

Pray tell how I'm the racist?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Seriously though, some times it is very necessary to talk the talk. My point is everyone should speak "proper" English unless the situation dictates otherwise (being with family, friends, etc.).

Strategically, I agree. I just think we others don't speak the same version of English as we do, we should try to understand and be tolerant instead of being dismissive. I recognize that is not how the real world is.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by John Galt

My only point is that "proper English" is the privileged form of language and those who use it have a leg up as a result.

Again, the solution seems pretty simple: if you want a leg up, learn "proper English."

If you want a leg up in the job hiring market, there are several ways to do it:

• Conform your dress to the standard expectation.
• Conform your spoken language to the standard expectation.
• "Conform" your education to the standard expectation (ie, if you don't have a degree, maybe you should consider earning one...)
• Conform your written grammar to the standard expectation
• "Conform" your skills to the standard expectation (go get certified, for example)

My point is that "conforming" one's language to an expected norm just makes sense.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Pray tell how I'm the racist?

The same way you could call HornedFrog Purple one. No facts or proof just talking out my ass.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by primelord

However in my line of work the ability to even write a coherent senetence falls well below the ability to write good code or to maintain servers.

I'm a programmer/designer type myself, so I'm in the same industry - and to an extent, that makes it just as important. If you're putting yourself forward as someone who has experience with (for example) Windows 2000/XP, Microsoft Office, and Visual Studio - then not using the functionality built into those products is a huge strike. If you're going to claim experience in Word, use the damn spellchecker. Use the grammar checker. I'm not grading you, I'm not taking off points for margins being wrong, but you're not willing to take enough pride in a resume that represents you directly, then how can I expect you to take pride in a product that represents your company?

Kevin

[wig]

/back 45minutes

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Strategically, I agree. I just think we others don't speak the same version of English as we do, we should try to understand and be tolerant instead of being dismissive. I recognize that is not how the real world is.

I agree with that.

I honestly think that in most job settings it's a function of economoics, not discrimination, that would keep someone who didn't speak "proper" English from being hired.

Are they really being discriminatory if they "proper" english happens to be the type of english that will best communicate with the majority of their customer base? Is that discrimination or good business sense?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Noop

The same way you could call HornedFrog Purple one. No facts or proof just talking out my ass.

Nope, sorry. See, I actually gave a reason for my calling his statement racist. He made a blanket statement saying that any employer just wants to say "just another black kid" and to see you fail. That's just not correct, maybe in some parts of the country it is more prevelant than others but in now way do I think that that is even the majority feeling.

[HornedFrog Purple]

Originally Posted by Noop

Aye, I wanted to say something like that but I am quite sure I have said alot of things that will make folks attack me again. It is setup for you to ignore your past in order to make it... I want to rise up against "The Man!!!"



noop

You aren't rising up against "The Man", "The Man" is all colors. "The Man" wants to look at you speaking like a uneducated, black ghetto kid, and then will treat you like one. How do you think Colin Powell has achieved what he has? Or any other number of black people? Because they broke the stereotype.

You have to compete on the same level as anyone else or "The Man" will just toss you aside before you even get two sentences out.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Noop

So basically from what I gather I have to change who I am to get a job? I get it. Because on this board I can speak slang because no one would understand what they hell I am talking about.

We have a guy in our office from the Virgin Islands. When he is on the phone with his family, his accent is so thick that we literally cannot understand half of what he says, even though he is speaking plain english. Around everyone else he is easy to understand. He never talks about "changing who he is" like he has a chip on his shoulder.

We also have a girl who is indian. Her accent is quite thick. On the phone I cannot understand her and often have to ask her to repeat herself. When she is in our office and face to face and I can watch her speak, I can pick up most everything though. She is shielded from customers because most of our customers would not be able to understand her. This means more work for everyone, we all occasionally have to talk to a customer for her, or pick up her slack b/c of the language barrier. She is very technically competant though so she is employed.

Are we racist because we don't want the girl who cannot be understood by many customers talking to customers? Are we racist b/c we appreciate the guy with the *thick* island accent toning it down when he talks to everyone else?

Honestly, noop, I think you are picking a battle that doesn't need to be fought, and going into it with a major chip on your shoulder.

I hate dressing up past jeans and a t-shirt. Hell, I don't even like jeans, I'd prefer shorts. I only own khakis and polo shirts b/c my job has a dress code that requires them.

I cuss a lot outside of work, with my friends. I don't cuss very often in the office. Do these thigns mean I'm forced to "change who I am" to work? Sort of, but its just not worth fighting, even though I could go to work in shorts, cussing every other word and get my job done just as well. Just not a battle worth fighting. I refuse to wear a suit, so I won't take a job that requires it. I'm limiting myself, knowingly and intentionally, in this way,and i'm fine with it.

BTW, I really like the example given earlier of the valley girl teen, "like, um, yeah, seriously, whatever, I'm 21." It's not a race thing here, that girl doesn't get hired either if that's how she conducts herself at an interview.

Also to the person who said white kids speak slang also I would like to point out that if both a white and a black kid were going for the same job. The white kid would get it because he has less strikes against him when he walks through the door.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Celeval

I'm a programmer/designer type myself, so I'm in the same industry - and to an extent, that makes it just as important. If you're putting yourself forward as someone who has experience with (for example) Windows 2000/XP, Microsoft Office, and Visual Studio - then not using the functionality built into those products is a huge strike. If you're going to claim experience in Word, use the damn spellchecker. Use the grammar checker. I'm not grading you, I'm not taking off points for margins being wrong, but you're not willing to take enough pride in a resume that represents you directly, then how can I expect you to take pride in a product that represents your company?

Kevin

Resume mistakes drive me insane. This is how you are presenting yourself to your employer (for better or worse). Take the time to make sure it is accurate, up-to-date, and error free. Attention to detail is a key skill in almost any job, and those who show a lack of it in their first impression get little sympathy from me.

edit: spelling error.... oh, the irony!

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by HornedFrog Purple

You aren't rising up against "The Man", "The Man" is all colors. "The Man" wants to look at you speaking like a uneducated, black ghetto kid, and then will treat you like one. How do you think Colin Powell has achieved what he has? Or any other number of black people? Because they broke the stereotype.

You have to compete on the same level as anyone else or "The Man" will just toss you aside before you even get two sentences out.

If a white kid walked in the door for an interview and started speaking like an uneducated, white priveliged kid he'd get tossed out just as fast as your example. It's not a color issue, it's a education and communication issue but you don't want to see that.

[wig]

Background checks are racist too.

[wig]

So is requiring an education

[wig]

And drug tests

[JonInMiddleGA]

And people say political threads here have predictable outcomes.
Sheesh.

[wig]

*wig puts his thread sniper rifle away*