Todd Bertuzzi breaks Steve Moore's neck

[Travis]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

One simple rule change: everyone wears college-style helmets, take them off voluntarily and it's a match penalty.

We had a situation where if Bertuzzi weren't stopped, there would have been a dead or permanently paralyzed player on the ice. How much further does it have to go?

Many people say fighting restores honor to the ice, that there would be cheap shots galore if not for the threat of some unskilled goon dropping his gloves and flattening your nose.

But if you're wearing a full face mask, and the EXISTING stick rules and obstruction rules are called properly, all that's left are clean, hard shots. Kinda like the one that got Moore into trouble in the first place.

Funny, this would pretty much eliminate half the concussions (as long as they enforce the helmets being worn properly with a secured chin strap), eye injuries, broken noses, losing a player for multiple shifts while he's being sewn up, etc, etc.

Yet the 'jock code' says as soon as you hit the NHL, off comes the cage or visor. It still baffles me how many players use lame excuses for not wearing even a half visor considering how many possible injuries it would prevent and how many years it may add to their career.

As sad as it sounds, this should be one of the first rule changes the NHL should implement as it would give those players without enough of a backbone to just don the shield on their own an excuse as to why they have it on.

Safety in the workplace and the equipment to ensure it, funny how the NHL is light year's behind on this.

[bhlloy]

Travis - instigator would definitely have happened in this situation. It's exactly this situation that renders the penalty so useless. The Canucks players cannot "go" after Moore and drop the gloves or they are out of the game... so the situation festers and lo and behold someone cheap shots him.

Moore was only willing to drop the gloves the other night with another lightweight, because he knew Brookbank, Bertuzzi or May would have killed him.

Again, sorry to harp on about this but 10 years ago, Moore fights somebody because there is no instigator penalty. That lets the air out of the situation and you don't get the end product... which is another player resorting to a cheap shot because he feels there is no other way to avenge the hit on his captain.

[rkmsuf]

Many people argue that the cages encourage more violence...

[druez]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

One simple rule change: everyone wears college-style helmets, take them off voluntarily and it's a match penalty.

We had a situation where if Bertuzzi weren't stopped, there would have been a dead or permanently paralyzed player on the ice. How much further does it have to go?

Many people say fighting restores honor to the ice, that there would be cheap shots galore if not for the threat of some unskilled goon dropping his gloves and flattening your nose.

But if you're wearing a full face mask, and the EXISTING stick rules and obstruction rules are called properly, all that's left are clean, hard shots. Kinda like the one that got Moore into trouble in the first place.

I thought moores shot wasn't clean?

[bhlloy]

Hockey is a fast moving sport all about vision and reactions, and most players don't wear the mask because they feel it hinders them in some way.

The only way you are going to get them to wear it is to make it mandatory, and the players union won't have it. It's easy to sit back and criticise, but if a player doesn't want to wear a mask because it feels it hinders his game who is anyone else to say he can't?

[sachmo71]

Blue et all,

I see your points about fighting...I really do. But these sort of things need to stop, and I'm at a loss for what to do. Outlawing fighting is definately a knee-jerk reaction, but I couldn't think of any other solution, and this whole situation has left me feeling sick.

[Fidatelo]

What people don't seem to get is that what seperates hockey from sports like basketball and football is that everyone on the ice is carrying a weapon: their stick. It is so simple to hack away at another player without getting caught that fighting is really the only deterrent: if some little weasel chops away like mad at a star when the ref isn't looking, then he gets pummelled mercilously by the star's goon. Most people don't like getting pummelled, so they don't chop away. When the NHL put in the instigator it made it harder to pummel the offender. Now the goon either fights the weasel's goon (umm, that deters the weasel how?) or else he gets kicked out of the game and after a couple instances suspended. So what is the way to respond? Oh ya, whack him right back with your stick.

Why do you think high sticking occurs multiple times per game? Why do you think that even though everyone wears helmets and many wear visors there are more eye injuries than ever in the NHL? Why do you think power forwards need to wear flack jackets and players equipment is like body armor now? These issues have all become epidemics over the last 10-15 years, and it doesn't surprise me that this coincides with the NHL's attempt to stop fighting.

[druez]

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by druez

I find the NHL all star game boring. That is what hockey would be if they took out all the hitting and fighting. No thanks.

I don't think there are many people making a case that hitting should be removed from the game. I love seeing good, hard, clean hits. But fighting has no place in sport.

[Solecismic]

All due respect to the NHLPA, but what happened to Moore can not happen again.

NASCAR requires modifications that improve the safety of cars, but slows them down a bit. Helmets with cages would do the same with hockey players.

At first, there might be more stupid penalties and more violence, but gradually, the idiots who can't keep their tempers and think any hard hit is an insult to the team's manhood would be weeded out of the league.

Obviously, the stuff we see every game - the hooking, slashing, cross-checking, the blatant obstructions - would have to be called every time. And that would be annoying at first.

But the end result, perhaps a half-season away, would be a cleaner, faster product with less severe injuries. A product people would feel comfortable taking their kids to (I might add that I saw my first NHL game in person at age 20 - my dad, who was taking me to football and baseball games from the time I was 3, thought hockey was a sport for thugs, and refused to go).

With the long labor recess expected to futz up the 2004-05 season, that would be the perfect time to make that kind of major change. I think in the long run, it would expand the viewership of a sport that's having a hard time finding fans right now.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by druez

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

This is ridiculous.

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

Lacrosse (edit) or outdoor. There are ALOT of fights in both of those events.

You are an idiot. That is flat out wrong.

[Ajaxab]

The issue of the work stoppage could punish Bertuzzi for his stupidity for even longer than the length of his impending suspension. If he's suspended for a year and the NHL has a work stoppage, his cheap shot just cost him 2 years of a very profitable career. Bertuzzi's lights may be on, but no one's home.

[druez]

Originally Posted by tauter

You are an idiot. That is flat out wrong.

Umm I used to goto wings games all the time and there a ton of fights. They just fought with cages on.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by druez

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

[sarcasm]
I remember in high school there was a bitch and wouldn't have sex with me, so when she went home I took her into the woods and raped her. She should have just slutted up and fucked me.
[/sarcasm]

[Travis]

Originally Posted by druez

I thought moores shot wasn't clean?

It was, and even Naslund stated this. The problem with it was that Naslund was in a comprosmised position (stretched out for the puck), and Moore clocked him, but made contact with pretty much just Naslund's head instead of shifting to catch him more in the body. The problem with the hit was more one of respect for the person taking the hit so-as to hit them, and hard, but in a safe way rather than rattling his head around.

And on the comment of Bertuzzi trying to get Moore to square off with him, even if that did happen, it does not in any way justify what Bertuzzi did. Lots of guys have dropped the gloves to see the other guy just cover up and accept a beating, hoping for the linesmen to jump in quickly, if nothing else, that's what Bertuzzi should have done.

The sad part is imaging what might have happened if none of Moore's team mates had been as close to him when this happened as they were. Bertuzzi never got off another punch after they hit the ice, or this could have been so much worse.

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

Umm I used to goto wings games all the time and there a ton of fights. They just fought with cages on.

Box is not outdoor, read my post moron.

[Solecismic]

The league looked at Moore's hit on Naslund and deemed it clean. Not sure if that's definitive, but it should have been the end of the controversy.

When the 'Nucks were in Colorado earlier, nothing happened to Moore. Seems unusually cowardly that Bertuzzi waited until the end of the game back in Vancouver before jumping him.

I used to cover minor league hockey, for The Seattle Times among other papers. One image I can't shake is a 15-year-old rookie for a team visiting Seattle was jumped and forced to fight an over-age (each team was allowed to have a couple of 18-year-old goons) player. He got the crap beat out of him, while 4,000 people stood and cheered as if this was some sort of wonderful entertainment.

The kid was only 15. And that's considered just part of the sport. If hockey really is interested in becoming mainstream (which it should be, it's a wonderful sport when you take away the violence), it can not allow that sort of thing. It can't treat the kids that way.

[druez]

Originally Posted by KWhit

This is ridiculous.

Have you ever played Hockey? Do you know how frustrating it is when little cheapshot artists slash at you, hold you hit your from behind, throw elbows etc. But, then when you goto confront them they run away and hide?

Moore had no problem fighting someone else earlier, but when it was someone he knew would put a beating on him he ran.

[bhlloy]

Castlerock - I don't see you crusading against boxing, ultimate fighting, wrestling, many martial arts that are all classified as sports where the actual aim is to beat the hell out of the other guy.

Jim - there have been many attempts to call every little instance of hooking, obstruction, holding etc... and the league has been behind every one. Each time I've heard "it will be tough at the beginning but once the players get used to it we'll have a better game" and every single time the experiment has been scrapped 20 games into the season because the product is unwatchable. Fans don't want to see players skating unmolested up and down the ice and 25 goals a game - that's what the All Star game and European hockey is all about and nobody watches them. People want to see a hard hitting, exciting game where nobody gets hurt and there aren't any cheap shots. I don't see why those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive.
The other issue I have with what you said was that a cage wouldn't have stopped the Moore incident, might have stopped the concussion but not the broken neck - you can't legislate for a cheap shot like that. It's not like it only happens in hockey - many more football players have suffered broken necks on helmet to helmet hits but nobody suggests all players should wear full face cages or extra neck padding because it would make positions like DB and WR much harder to play.

I think there is a simple way to stop what is happening - ban the protagonists for life. Won't happen with Bertuzzi because he is a poster boy and a good player but if you knew that kind of cheapshot would get you kicked out of the league you wouldn't do it. Way too simple a solution for it to actually happen though.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by druez

From what I understand, Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to square off with him but Moore wanted no part of him and was skating away so Bertuzzi clocked him from behind. Moore should of just manned up and fought him.

By ignoring Bertuzzi, the chances were that he would put his team on the powerplay. Instead, Bertuzzi went into a rage and tried to kill him.

[druez]

Originally Posted by tauter

Box is not outdoor, read my post moron.

Please refrain from the name calling. It isn't nessessary is it? I've seen outdoor lacrosse games where there were fights btw. They happen but more as a brawl or scuffle you would see in soccer, basketball, football, baseball etc.

Now Pro Box lacrosse is alot different and is playe like hockey.

The professional game is a little different than the lacrosse Hajek played in college. For one thing, it's played indoors, which really didn't require much of an adjustment for Hajek, who grew up playing box lacrosse indoors in Canada. For another thing, the players are allowed to fight, and Hajek, who is 5-foot-10 and weighs 185 pounds, has shown already that he won't be pushed around or intimidated. "I've been in a little scuffle," he allowed. As far as the fighting goes, he said, "I compare it a lot to hockey. I don't enjoy it, but I understand it." But Hajek is far from a hostile young fellow. He enjoys his sport and being with people who play it for a part-time living. "It's a real nice, tight community," he said, of people who are "real passionate" about lacrosse.

[druez]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

By ignoring Bertuzzi, the chances were that he would put his team on the powerplay. Instead, Bertuzzi went into a rage and tried to kill him.

If it was a close game I would buy that, but the game was out of reach at that time.

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

Please refrain from the name calling. It isn't nessessary is it?

When you stop talking out of your ass I'll stop calling you names.

[druez]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Castlerock - I don't see you crusading against boxing, ultimate fighting, wrestling, many martial arts that are all classified as sports where the actual aim is to beat the hell out of the other guy.

Jim - there have been many attempts to call every little instance of hooking, obstruction, holding etc... and the league has been behind every one. Each time I've heard "it will be tough at the beginning but once the players get used to it we'll have a better game" and every single time the experiment has been scrapped 20 games into the season because the product is unwatchable. Fans don't want to see players skating unmolested up and down the ice and 25 goals a game - that's what the All Star game and European hockey is all about and nobody watches them. People want to see a hard hitting, exciting game where nobody gets hurt and there aren't any cheap shots. I don't see why those 2 things have to be mutually exclusive.
The other issue I have with what you said was that a cage wouldn't have stopped the Moore incident, might have stopped the concussion but not the broken neck - you can't legislate for a cheap shot like that. It's not like it only happens in hockey - many more football players have suffered broken necks on helmet to helmet hits but nobody suggests all players should wear full face cages or extra neck padding because it would make positions like DB and WR much harder to play.

I think there is a simple way to stop what is happening - ban the protagonists for life. Won't happen with Bertuzzi because he is a poster boy and a good player but if you knew that kind of cheapshot would get you kicked out of the league you wouldn't do it. Way too simple a solution for it to actually happen though.

If moore didn't break his neck we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, it sucks he broke his neck, but it was a freak occurance. You can't decide on how serious something is based on who gets hurt. What Bertuzzi did was wrong, but it should a suspension for a few games then back to business.

[druez]

Originally Posted by tauter

When you stop talking out of your ass I'll stop calling you names.

Fights DO Happen in Outdoor lacrosse and there are quite a few pushing matches that take place also. Its just not part of the game as it is in hockey and box lacrosse.

So again please little one calm yourself down.

[Honolulu_Blue]

The Bertuzzi incident looks bad. I agree with Sach on that. You can't help but feel sick when you watch it. Not only because of what happened to Moore, but because it's watching the game you love turn ugly and become forever marred.

The fighting can be a bit of a spectacle. It does turn people off to the sport. But fighting is not the reason for the vast majority of injuries in the NHL. The only incident I know where a player was paralyzed was in COLLEGE hockey. That kid from Boston (or maybe Boston College) was wearing the full helmet and shield, was hit from behind, and that was it. Most of the injuries come from seemingly clean hits (e.g., Scott Stevens), errant use of the stick, slashing (e.g., deliberate use of the stick), pucks in the face, knee-to-knee hits, etc. I have known players to get concussed from figthing, Steve Smith broke his leg once (it was a freak thing, just the way he landed), broken noses, jaws, orbital bones, lost teeth, cuts, etc. Those are usually the worst of what happens in a fight.

Fighting doesn't really make the sport more dangerous. (In fact, as I and some others have raised, there are many who think fighting makes the sport safer in a way, because it cuts down on the stick work, cheap shots, etc. A self-policing mechanism). It does, at times, tarnish its image though.

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

Fights DO Happen in Outdoor lacrosse and there are quite a few pushing matches that take place also. Its just not part of the game as it is in hockey and box lacrosse.

So again please little one calm yourself down.

First of all, I'm not upset.

Secondly, I never said fights DON'T happen in outdoor lacrosse. I was saying that you don't know what you're talking about by saying they happen ALOT as you so eloquently put it.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The Bertuzzi incident looks bad. I agree with Sach on that. You can't help but feel sick when you watch it. Not only because of what happened to Moore, but because it's watching the game you love turn ugly and become forever marred.

The fighting can be a bit of a spectacle. It does turn people off to the sport. But fighting is not the reason for the vast majority of injuries in the NHL. The only incident I know where a player was paralyzed was in COLLEGE hockey. That kid from Boston (or maybe Boston College) was wearing the full helmet and shield, was hit from behind, and that was it. Most of the injuries come from seemingly clean hits (e.g., Scott Stevens), errant use of the stick, slashing (e.g., deliberate use of the stick), pucks in the face, knee-to-knee hits, etc. I have known players to get concussed from figthing, Steve Smith broke his leg once (it was a freak thing, just the way he landed), broken noses, jaws, orbital bones, lost teeth, cuts, etc. Those are usually the worst of what happens in a fight.

Fighting doesn't really make the sport more dangerous. (In fact, as I and some others have raised, there are many who think fighting makes the sport safer in a way, because it cuts down on the stick work, cheap shots, etc. A self-policing mechanism). It does, at times, tarnish its image though.

Agreed, not to mention what bertuzzi did wasn't really what most would consider a fight.

[tauter]

and yes Quik, I know it's A LOT.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by druez

If moore didn't break his neck we wouldn't be having this discussion. Yes, it sucks he broke his neck, but it was a freak occurance. You can't decide on how serious something is based on who gets hurt. What Bertuzzi did was wrong, but it should a suspension for a few games then back to business.

I'm curious, would you still say a few game suspension had Moore ended up permanently paralyzed or dead (still hard to say what would have happened if Bertuzzi would have had time to get 2 or 3 more punches in after they hit the ice). Yes, he wasn't intending on breaking Moore's neck, but you can bet your last dollar he was intending to hurt the kid is some way, he didn't jump him like that as a gentle reminder that his hit on Naslund wasn't very nice.

This wasn't a rage problem, it was premeditated and something Bertuzzi had been working up to all game. If the suspension is anything under 20 games, I for one would be very surprised.

[druez]

Originally Posted by tauter

First of all, I'm not upset.

Secondly, I never said fights DON'T happen in outdoor lacrosse. I was saying that you don't know what you're talking about by saying they happen ALOT as you so eloquently put it.

I've been to three outdoor lacroose games in my life. 1 of them had a fight, 1 had a guy wacking someone with a stick then they wrestled around a bit. The third had a big pushing and shoving match. That is what I based it on.

[rexallllsc]

To answer a lot of the people here quickly:

-Bertuzzi's hit was cheap as hell, but doesn't warrant criminal action. Are you going to file charge against everyone who wins a fight? What if Bertuzzi had faught Moore straight up, and Moore neck broke when they went to the ice? Would Bertuzzi be up on criminal charges?

I've seen a ton of cheapshots worse than Bertuzzi's, it just so happens that Moore hit the ice wrong. Tim Hunter comes to mind...Dale hunter comes to mind...Hell, Matt Johnson (I believe he's on the Wild now) ended Jeff Beukeboom's career hitting punching him squarely in the back of the head and knocking him out cold. Ended his career. 12 game suspension.

-Cages: Simply put, they suck.

-Visors: I never liked wearing one, and I know a lot of guys don't...but I think it's inevitable that the NHL will go to a mandatory visor league.

-the NHL: A joke compared to what it was in the 80's and early-90's...more a result of the traps, locks, and officials not calling the obstruction/holding that takes place every shift than anything.

The NHL is a sad joke of the sport that I got into when I was 6.

-To those that say this is turning kids off to the sport...well what sport did you think this is? This is a violent sport. This is a rough sport. I can tell you from first hand experience (I played for 15 years, and 1 season of Jr. A) that sometimes you just get caught up on the ice...and you always regret it after, but it's pretty insane when you're out there sometimes...

[cuervo72]

"little one"?

I think you should show him what a real lacrosse check is, T.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by druez

I've been to three outdoor lacroose games in my life. 1 of them had a fight, 1 had a guy wacking someone with a stick then they wrestled around a bit. The third had a big pushing and shoving match. That is what I based it on.

Three is one hell of a sample size.

[ISiddiqui]

A fight is when 2 people try to hit eachother. When someone jumps the other person without a chance for retalation, its assault and being a pussy.

Actually even in a fight with 2 people it is assault for both individuals.

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

I've been to three outdoor lacroose games in my life. 1 of them had a fight, 1 had a guy wacking someone with a stick then they wrestled around a bit. The third had a big pushing and shoving match. That is what I based it on.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You are making claims of fact based on 3 actual events? Nice.

[tauter]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

"little one"?

I think you should show him what a real lacrosse check is, T.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Travis

I'm curious, would you still say a few game suspension had Moore ended up permanently paralyzed or dead (still hard to say what would have happened if Bertuzzi would have had time to get 2 or 3 more punches in after they hit the ice). Yes, he wasn't intending on breaking Moore's neck, but you can bet your last dollar he was intending to hurt the kid is some way, he didn't jump him like that as a gentle reminder that his hit on Naslund wasn't very nice.

This wasn't a rage problem, it was premeditated and something Bertuzzi had been working up to all game. If the suspension is anything under 20 games, I for one would be very surprised.

I guess here is the point Travis. If Moore didn't get anything other then a swollen jaw or a busted nose / black eye etc. There wouldn't be this outcry. Only because of the seriousness of the freak accident are we even talking about this.

If it was a straight fight between two guys on the rink and one guy died even though they both dropped the gloves, it would still be a 5 minute major I would assume. So whatever the penality would be if Moore just broke a fingernail should be the same as it is for him breaking his neck.

If you want to say all cheapshots like that should be 20 games then fine go with that. But, to say this cheapshot is only 2 games this one is 10 games, this one is 2 years is not consistant.

I believe this is the same problem that Roenick brought up earlier in the season with inconsistant calls and suspension policies.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by tauter

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You are making claims of fact based on 3 actual events? Nice.

FYI, I saw one of the craziest fights I've ever seen at an indoor lacrosse game...and I've probably seen over 1,000 live hockey games, and maybe 50 lacrosse games...it's a pretty rough sport.

[druez]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Three is one hell of a sample size.

You would assume that if You only goto 3 games of a sporting event and if it was that rare of an occurance, there wouldn't be this type of action at each one.

Btw if you can't tell 3 out of 3 is a 100%

[druez]

Originally Posted by tauter

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight.

[MrIllini]

whacking someone with a stick and then wrestling around a bit? sounds like a regular evening subby trying to crawl into fritz' pussy

[tauter]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

FYI, I saw one of the craziest fights I've ever seen at an indoor lacrosse game...and I've probably seen over 1,000 live hockey games, and maybe 50 lacrosse games...it's a pretty rough sport.

Indoor (Box) lacrosse is a lot different than outdoor. You don't have to tell me lacrosse is rough, I play and coach. All I was saying is that fights do not happen "ALOT" in the outdoor game. Now, maybe the professional outdoor game is different....

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight.

You're going to facewash me, pull my jersey and then punch my helmet?

[MrIllini]

Originally Posted by druez

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight.

this reminds me of the joke where the farmers are arguing over a duck and decide to kick each other in the balls to see who would get it

the first farmer nails the other's nuts squarely and then lets him keep the duck

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by druez

You would assume that if You only goto 3 games of a sporting event and if it was that rare of an occurance, there wouldn't be this type of action at each one.

Btw if you can't tell 3 out of 3 is a 100%

So you're telling me if a Rich Kotite-coached team started the year 3-0, it would prove he's a Hall of Fame coach and you'd sign him to a 10 year contract?

[rkmsuf]

Wouldn't anyone?

[tauter]

Originally Posted by druez

I'll call your lacrosse check and raise you a hockey fight.

Don't make me get the feta-gang in here, or force Wig to expel you from the WigFL.

[Subby]

druez should argue about something he knows about...like football text sims.

Oh wait...