The FOFC Historical Person Draft Thread (Draft Underway!)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

6.9 Robin Hood Cultural Icon Middle Ages



One of the first liberal democrats. Definitely not a believer in supply side economics. His actions undoubtedly would have made Walter Mondale proud. He stole from the rich and gave to the poor.

One could argue he was actually a tool of supply side economics.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My plan was to just take rank picks. Who's your top pick, or top three or whatever. Then tabulate it all on a point basis. I'm sure some voters will get in depth to it, but, IMO, too much depth will scare most voters away.

So if I figure I'm going to already have the worst ranked military leader, then it doesn't really hurt to really reach in that category to try to improve my pick in a different category?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Racer

So if I figure I'm going to already have the worst ranked military leader, then it doesn't really hurt to really reach in that category to try to improve my pick in a different category?

if you think your pick is already weak it certainly can't do any harm to really go for a more unique take on that particular choice and see if it gets you any extra consideration for going in a different direction.

I'm having to do that with one pick of my last 4. I can't imagine anyone coming up with this guy. =)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Ok, AENeuman let me know of another pick this morning to keep this moving:

7.6 Robert E Lee, Military Leader, 1800's

Admirers pointed to his character and devotion to duty, not to mention his brilliant tactical successes in battle after battle against a stronger foe. Military historians continue to pay attention to his battlefield tactics and maneuvering, though many think he should have designed better strategic plans for the Confederacy. However, it should be noted that he was not given full direction of the Southern war effort until very late in the conflict. His reputation continued to build and by 1900 his cult had spread into the North, signaling a national apotheosis.^[44] Today among the devotees of "The Lost Cause," General Lee is referred to as "The Marble Man."

Bucc! I can't believe you let your brother take Lee before you.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Racer

So if I figure I'm going to already have the worst ranked military leader, then it doesn't really hurt to really reach in that category to try to improve my pick in a different category?

I actually found that ranking wasn't as much of a factor (at least not by those stating reasons in the thread) as whether the choices were solid or not. Bad picks semeed to really weigh down opinions, even if the rest of that person's draft graded out really well. So use a throwaway choice in a category at your own risk.

(I am speaking of my experience from the Lit draft, BTW).

[Barkeep49]

Ok I'm on the clock again. Will have some picks shortly.

[Barkeep49]

DOLA: Does anyone have an updated list? I want to make sure I don't accidentally repick someone again.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

8.11 Michael Jackson - Musician (1960s-1970s)

Off the Wall (1979), Thriller (1982), Bad (1987), Dangerous (1991) and HIStory (1995).

As the rounds go deeper the use of approximate dates is getting greater. I understand, the groups start at millions of years to hundreds to 10 to 8. Clever strategy.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Am i stupid, or did this joe louis do his thing much earlier?

Honestly, I was wondering as I was reading here if you guys had just not paid attention.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

DOLA: Does anyone have an updated list? I want to make sure I don't accidentally repick someone again.

Sorry, BK, still updating. I went ahead and saved what I had, which is halfway through the eighth round. Hopefully you can go forward from there.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Noop

I thought it was the person's life time and not necessarily the time in which they actually did things. I was trying to employ a little strategy, I should have consulted with Chief Rum. If he objects I will change it.

It is, but it was also supposed to be ideally close to when his most prominent actions took place, and that's how I will be instructing voters as well.

You're allowed to make that choice, but it is up to the voters to decide if they may punish you if they think you were too liberal with your era choice for Joe Louis.

Personally, I think what stands out is that you skipped over no less than two entire other eras to get to this one, assuming his most significant actions are thought to be Pre-WWII 20th century. Interesting decision to say the least.

[Barkeep49]

Claude Monet Artist (1800s)

One of the leading Impressionists, his Haystacks and Water Lilies are both beautiful and accessible pieces of work.

[Barkeep49]

Uncle Sam Cultural Icon (WWII)

Uncle Sam wants you to vote for me for having the strongest Historical Person Team.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

As the rounds go deeper the use of approximate dates is getting greater. I understand, the groups start at millions of years to hundreds to 10 to 8. Clever strategy.

While this is also a somewhat interesting era choice, it is closer to relevance, I think, than the Louis era choice because of Jackson's fame with the Jackson Five. But, yeah, this is a strategy that is going to be curious to watch, especially as it affects votes down the line.

[RendeR]

Not to nitpik barkeep but I believe the picks must be actual human beings. Uncle Sam is just a personification of the United States?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Uncle Sam Cultural Icon (WWII)

Uncle Sam wants you to vote for me for having the strongest Historical Person Team.

Sorry Barkeep, but Uncle Sam is essentially a fictional character. Nice out of the box thinking, though. I am going to have to ask you to either re-pick or convince me the pick should stand.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Claude Monet Artist (1800s)

One of the leading Impressionists, his Haystacks and Water Lilies are both beautiful and accessible pieces of work.

You already drafted someone from this era I think (Mark Twain).

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Claude Monet Artist (1800s)

One of the leading Impressionists, his Haystacks and Water Lilies are both beautiful and accessible pieces of work.

He was my backup if van Gogh had gone off the board.

[Barkeep49]

Gah. This is what happens for having had my draft board blown and not being able to replan having been at work tonight.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sorry Barkeep, but Uncle Sam is essentially a fictional character. Nice out of the box thinking, though. I am going to have to ask you to either re-pick or convince me the pick should stand.

And so is Gilgamesh. And that doesn't doesn't get into the dubious historical nature of some of the biblical people picked or King Arthur for that matter.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

And so is Gilgamesh. And that doesn't doesn't get into the dubious historical nature of some of the biblical people picked or King Arthur for that matter.

I thought the same of Gilgamesh but after reading a bit there is enough evidence that he existed for it to stand. Same with King Arthur, for me at least.

I was having more issue with Robin Hood than these others myself but for those there actually is research into their existance. Sorry man =(


EDIT: not that my opinion matters in the least, just sayin I can see the arguments for the others.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

And so is Gilgamesh. And that doesn't doesn't get into the dubious historical nature of some of the biblical people picked or King Arthur for that matter.

Dubious != Fictional. Gilgamesh may be fictional, but it is possible he is based on someone by that name who really did live and rule at that time. King Arthur is generally thought to have lived, although the term "King" wasn't really something that could be applied to him at that time. We have already addressed the Biblical people.

Point is, all of those persons could have existed. It's even reasonable to suggest that they did, or some resemblance to their persons did at one time live.

Uncle Sam is a known absolute fictional character.

And, yes, you will have to re-draft Monet's spot as well (or "re-era" Monet).

[Barkeep49]

Robin Hood would indeed be another example.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I thought the same of Gilgamesh but after reading a bit there is enough evidence that he existed for it to stand. Same with King Arthur, for me at least.

I was having more issue with Robin Hood than these others myself but for those there actually is research into their existance. Sorry man =(


EDIT: not that my opinion matters in the least, just sayin I can see the arguments for the others.

Yes, Robin Hood was the closest, IMO, to getting the drop before the Uncle Sam pick. Had I been here, I might have struck it down. That said, the drafter (Izulde? I forget) did do some research to present his case, and I can't say it's any less likely Robin Hood existed than some other choices.

All that said, I still think choices like that will work against the drafter when voting starts.

[Barkeep49]

I have to say I really disagree with this ruling as I think others have clearly stretched the boundaries time and time again with their picks.

Salvador Dali Artist (WWII)
Paul Revere Cultural Icon (1700s)

[Barkeep49]

In 300 years someone would be able to pick Uncle Sam in this draft is essentially what is being said. I can present research by university professors saying that Bigfoot is real and the Holocaust is not.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Robin Hood would indeed be another example.

The main difference here really is that I am using a pretty loose definition of "existence as a living human being of history". And even by that loose standard, Uncle Sam is quite clearly excluded from that group. Sorry, BK.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Racer

You already drafted someone from this era I think (Mark Twain).

Thanks by the way.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I have to say I really disagree with this ruling as I think others have clearly stretched the boundaries time and time again with their picks.

Salvador Dali Artist (WWII)
Paul Revere Cultural Icon (1700s)

Two outstanding replacement picks however BK, nicely handled. Just call you captain CLUTCH!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

In 300 years someone would be able to pick Uncle Sam in this draft is essentially what is being said. I can present research by university professors saying that Bigfoot is real and the Holocaust is not.

I can't dispute that, but you can't really support it either. We're not 300 years in the future. We're here now. Fact is, this draft is happening now and the evidence available to us now saying that Uncle Sam is fictional is incontrovertible.

Frankly, I am a little surprised you see Uncle Sam as anywhere near remotely acceptable. I was pretty clear that absolutely verifiably fictional characters cannot be chosen. I'm sorry that ruling disappoints you, but I think it's pretty consistent with what I have said would be allowed in the draft.

[Barkeep49]

Chief I think that rule has been flagrantly disregarded from the start. I've made my new picks, for whom there can be no doubt, but this idea that someone can hang their picks on the thinnest of historical research is disappointing.

[Danny]

Hopefully the voting will punish them for that. I'm pretty sure all my picks are people who existed

[Racer]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Two outstanding replacement picks however BK, nicely handled. Just call you captain CLUTCH!

Paul Revere is a great pick for culture icon. I haven't heard of the other dude, but before this draft the only artists I had ever heard of were Picasso and the the four that the teenage mutant ninja turtles were named after.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Racer

Paul Revere is a great pick for culture icon. I haven't heard of the other dude, but before this draft the only artists I had ever heard of were Picasso and the the four that the teenage mutant ninja turtles were named after.

Dali's.... interesting. Not to my tastes, but I know some people who absolutely love his stuff.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Chief I think that rule has been flagrantly disregarded from the start. I've made my new picks, for whom there can be no doubt, but this idea that someone can hang their picks on the thinnest of historical research is disappointing.

You're free to your opinion, but the rule as I envisioned it was never clearly broken until your Uncle Sam pick. You say you're disappointed at this idea, but you picked an actual fictional character. You didn't even try to meet the thinnest historical research level you are disparaging.

I had a choice to have a very tight rule or a loose one, and frankly, I decided from the start to play it loose to encourage creativity and strategy and out of the box thinking. You may disagree with my loose interpretation, and that's your prerogative. But that is the rule.

[ColtCrazy]

For what it's worth, I really love the Dali pick. I had thought about drafting him myself earlier, but I'm getting tight on era/category alignment. Dali is my favorite artist of all time, I have a print of his in the living room.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Danny

Hopefully the voting will punish them for that. I'm pretty sure all my picks are people who existed

I think they will.

The voters, IMO, displayed a great aptitude for what makes a good draft during the Lit draft, and I think we'll see that here. There is a balance between a strategic choice and going way too out there.

Also, I think there are plenty of choices in all eras (okay, Ancient Times is a toughie) that should have allowed for drafters to make choices that were very reasonably and/or demonstrably real. So drafters should be hurt by making iffy choices, and I will state in the voting thread that the spirit of the draft is to include real historical persons only (but with a very loose allowance for what constitutes "real").

BTW, just to head this off at the pass, in my view, Abraham is the limit of even dubious believability as a possible person from the Bible. I will not accept an Adam, Eve or Noah choice in this draft. You have been warned.

[RendeR]

Wow, I didn't think Abraham was that far out there =)

[Danny]

I took being real pretty strictly with my picks. Being a Christian, I would give the bible based picks from others more slack then they probably deserve, but that is a bias I am aware of. I still need to fill ancient times, but there wont be any doubt the person I pick existed.

[RendeR]

I'm assuming we won't get back to me at 9.5 tonight. So I'm off to bed. I'll be around tomorrow though!

[Racer]

I'm off to bed. I sent Chief Rum and Oliegirl a list of two candidates for my next pick.

[Izulde]

I think I've found my ancient pick.... I just hope they fall through to me....

[spleen1015]

Lance Armstrong - Sportsman (2000-Present Day)

He won the Tour de France seven consecutive times, from 1999 to 2005. In doing so, he beat the previous records of five wins by Miguel Indurain (consecutive) and Bernard Hinault, Eddy Merckx and Jacques Anquetil. Previous to this achievement, he also survived testicular cancer, a germ cell tumor that metastasized to his brain and lungs in 1996. His cancer treatments included brain and testicular surgery and extensive chemotherapy.

In 1999, he was named the American Broadcasting Company's Wide World of Sports Athlete of the Year. In 2002, Sports Illustrated magazine named him Sportsman of the Year. He was also named Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year for 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005. He received ESPN's ESPY Award for Best Male Athlete in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2006, and won the BBC Sports Personality of the Year Overseas Personality Award in 2003. Armstrong retired from racing on July 24, 2005, at the end of the 2005 Tour de France.

[Racer]

Wow. Great timing Spleen. I happen to wake up for a minute and see that you just picked. Anyways,


9.3 Osama Bin Ladin (2000-Present) – Historical Evil Person

He orchestrated the worst terrorist attack against the world’s most powerful. This man has been the face of evil and hate in the 21st century. We live in a much different world now because of him.

[larrymcg421]

I think the nature of the Ancient Times category does lead to people that have questions about their historical accuracy. However, historical scholars believe that Gilgamesh did exist and was a King during the 26th century. I picked him as cultural icon because he was obviously iconic enough to inspire the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is one of the first works of literary fiction and the first epic poem.

[larrymcg421]

dola

If anything, BK got off easy. If those of us who picked guys like Gilgamesh and King Arthur are going to be hurt for those picks by the voters, then BK was helped because he was allowed (forced) to change his pick and will not be hurt by the voters for it.

[Izulde]

Some really great late round gems are emerginghere.

[RendeR]

Ok bring on LWSFS =)

[oliegirl]

I'm showing Spleen up at 8.2, and I don't have a list from him.

I just got done updating so please let me know if I am wrong there...

[oliegirl]

Gah...missed a page, I'm updated now!