2007 NBA Playoffs Thread

[stevew]

Some awful shot selection by the Cavs there in the final 1:00. Still happy to escape with a victory. Wince Carter has jumped the shark, I'm impressed with the defensive performance that Sasha is turning in on him.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Stoudamire and Diaw knew the rules. They should have been happy that Horry did that and sat their asses down on the bench with a big smile on their faces. They were about to have game 5 at home against a Spurs team that would be a man down. Very stupid to leave the bench.

Note: I should add that I don't like zero tolerance policies like this one, but if it's there, then you're stupid for not following it, especially during the playoffs.

Didn't see the "fight" and selected this to quote...but without a dog in this, those guys better get suspended if they stepped one foot off the bench. Yes it's different than leaving the bench by a foot while celebrating a big shot, as Blade asked, because the rules don't say "if you step a foot off the bench while cheering, you will be suspended one game." Other guys have been suspended in the past for setting a foot on the court with no clear objective to get at anyone, so they better keep this consistent.

This rule has been bullshit since it became a big deal during the '97 Knicks-Heat series (a year I think might have finally been the Knicks' year if they didn't lose their starting lineup over the last 2 games of the series). The more times players get suspended for it and people think its BS, the better chance it will finally go away.

[Arles]

Rule No. 12 -- Fouls and Penalties
Section VII -- Fines
c. During an altercation, all players not participating in the game must remain in the immediate vicinity of the bench. Violators will be suspended, without pay, for a minimum of one game and fined up to $35,000.

The wording "vicinity of the bench" is interesting. If a player is going towards the scorers table to check in, they may step on the floor - yet they are considered still "on the bench". Here's what we know:

1. Seconds after the play the Suns told Craig Sager that Amare was checking in.
2. The PA announcer in SA stated that he saw Amare taking off his warmups seconds before the Nash hit.
3. Amare stated he was told before the inbounds that he would be going in during the next dead ball in an offense-defense switch for kurt Thomas.

Now, do I think Amare was *really* checking in when he stepped towards the middle area? No, of course not. But there is enough information here to allow the league to state that Amare was trying to check in (and therefore still in the bench vicinity) and not suspend him. On the other hand, I think Diaw is done for game 6. He went further on the court than Amare and there's no excuse for his steps.

[SnDvls]

Amare was heading to the scorer's table to get subbed in

[Arles]

Wow, Jalen Rose just stated to the media that when Elson hung on the rim and ended up with an altercation with James Jones after a dunk that Tim Duncan stepped on the floor from the bench.

He said he saw it live and on tape this morning. This certainly makes things interesting....

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Arles

Wow, Jalen Rose just stated to the media that when Elson hung on the rim and ended up with an altercation with James Jones after a dunk that Tim Duncan stepped on the floor from the bench.

He said he saw it live and on tape this morning. This certainly makes things interesting....

I know there was a camera pointed at the Spurs bench, I'm just waiting for the footage to appear today to show how many of them did the same.

I wouldn't be suprised if we see Amare and Diaw suspended for one game and Rob gone for 2 or 3.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

I know there was a camera pointed at the Spurs bench, I'm just waiting for the footage to appear today to show how many of them did the same.

I wouldn't be suprised if we see Amare and Diaw suspended for one game and Rob gone for 2 or 3.

This was a different play - it occurred at 9:08 in the second quarter. Elson dunked and got kind of undercut by James Jones. Both players started shoving and Duncan (and it looks like one other hard to identify Spur) clearly stepped on the court (almost to the 3-point line) from the bench.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Arles

This was a different play - it occurred at 9:08 in the second quarter. Elson dunked and got kind of undercut by James Jones. Both players started shoving and Duncan (and it looks like one other hard to identify Spur) clearly stepped on the court (almost to the 3-point line) from the bench.

I know you were refering to another play

I was just saying I'm waiting for the camera shot of the Spurs bench from the same time Cheep Shot Rob cross checked Nash into the table.

anyhow it'll be interesting on how the NBA handles this one now...and to think it all could have been avoided if they would have done something with Bowen and his trick knee on Nash. Remember Bell got suspended for one game for "attempting" to knee someone where Bowen actually did it...though they did raise the foul called on him to a Flagrent Foul 1

[SnDvls]

"In a play that went entirely unnoticed until well after the game was over, both Duncan and Bowen actually left San Antonio's bench early in the second quarter after Francisco Elson and James Jones were entangled. Replays clearly show Duncan walking several steps onto the court as Elson and Jones appeared to be ready to get into it. Bowen then followed Duncan onto the floor, grabbed him and led him back to the bench. If the league does indeed follow the letter of the law, both Spurs players would also be suspended for Game 5. "

Steve Kerr talks about what Arles mentioned above in his latest yahoo.com article.

So now does the NBA follow the rule to the letter of the law or just hand out some fines? It will be interesting.

[Warhammer]

If anyone other than Horry gets suspended, Horry's suspension should be for multiple games.

If any Suns players are suspended, Duncan should be suspended as well.

The Spurs have gotten to be quite a dirty team. I'm surprised they have the squeaky clean image they have.

[Arles]

I think they ought to suspend everyone near the court and let Jalen Rose and Matt Bonner play a game of HORSE to decide who wins game 5.

The NBA is becoming a joke if multiple suspensions come down.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Arles

I think they ought to suspend everyone near the court and let Jalen Rose and Matt Bonner play a game of HORSE to decide who wins game 5.

The NBA is becoming a joke if multiple suspensions come down.

I would actually be much more likely to watch THAT than an actual nba game.

[SnDvls]

Baron Davis didn't get suspended so I guess we might see a trend.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Logan

Didn't see the "fight" and selected this to quote...but without a dog in this, those guys better get suspended if they stepped one foot off the bench. Yes it's different than leaving the bench by a foot while celebrating a big shot, as Blade asked, because the rules don't say "if you step a foot off the bench while cheering, you will be suspended one game." Other guys have been suspended in the past for setting a foot on the court with no clear objective to get at anyone, so they better keep this consistent.

This rule has been bullshit since it became a big deal during the '97 Knicks-Heat series (a year I think might have finally been the Knicks' year if they didn't lose their starting lineup over the last 2 games of the series). The more times players get suspended for it and people think its BS, the better chance it will finally go away.

"

[Arles]

There's one major difference in last night to the Knicks-Heat melee. In the Knicks case, the event had numerous "flagrant fighting fouls and ejections" and was therefore a fight. In last night's case, there were no flagrant fighting fouls or ejections for the after-the-play situation with Horry, Nash, Bell and others. Therefore, it isn't a fight and can't be compared directly to other events that were fights.

[Arles]

Notice the ref separating Elson from James Jones in the second image. How is that not an altercation if the ref stops play and needs to separate two players?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Arles

There's one major difference in last night to the Knicks-Heat melee. In the Knicks case, the event had numerous "flagrant fighting fouls and ejections" and was therefore a fight. In last night's case, there were no flagrant fighting fouls or ejections for the after-the-play situation with Horry, Nash, Bell and others. Therefore, it isn't a fight and can't be compared directly to other events that were fights.

Agreed, and I was just using that as a case where the rule really became well-known. But the rule doesn't say "fight" -- it says "altercation." I don't have the NBA rulebook in front of me, but do they define what an altercation is?

I can't think of other instances of this rule off-hand, but I generally remember guys getting suspended for coming off the bench during non-fighting situations.

[miami_fan]

Suspend Duncan too!

Like I said, I hope no one gets suspended and both teams get to settle this series on the court with their full complement of players. But the rule and the way David Stern has enforced this rule has been clear. I think by not suspending them, Stern opens himself up to the "superstars get preferential treatment" commentary that he hates.

[Jas_lov]

Sportscenter just announced Horry gets 2 games, Stoudamire and Diaw 1 game. No mention of Duncan or Bowen. I'm rooting for the Spurs so I can't complain, but there's going to be some uproar over this in Phoenix because Duncan and Bowen essentially did the same thing as Stoudamire and Diaw and didn't get suspended.

[Blade6119]

Thats just bullshit...

[INDalltheway]

i hate the nba

[st.cronin]

So the NBA is now openly fixing games?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Suspend Duncan too!

Like I said, I hope no one gets suspended and both teams get to settle this series on the court with their full complement of players. But the rule and the way David Stern has enforced this rule has been clear. I think by not suspending them, Stern opens himself up to the "superstars get preferential treatment" commentary that he hates.

I agree 100% with each of your sentences. I don't know how this could have been swept under the rug under the guise of "common sense."

FYI, I haven't seen the incident with Duncan outside of the pictures in this thread, so I don't know how the two compare.

[SnDvls]

well it's crap that nothing has happened to Duncan and/or Bowen...yet, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

So the NBA is now openly fixing games?

Now? Did you watch the Lakers-Kings a few years ago?

[Atocep]

Wow, I don't even know what to say about this. Amare and Diaw, but not Duncan and Bowen? I can't wait to see Stern try to justify this one.

[Logan]

I just realized that this thing called YouTube got invented, so I went over there and watched the clip of Duncan coming onto the court.

Originally Posted by Arles

Notice the ref separating Elson from James Jones in the second image. How is that not an altercation if the ref stops play and needs to separate two players?

After watching the video, it's clear that the ref didn't actually separate the two players. James Jones was out of the picture when the ref came in to talk to Elson. I don't see how it can be defined as an altercation, when there was no contact between the two players besides the initial undercutting (which looked 100% unintentional in my eyes, after all, Elson swung his body back around and on top of James by hanging on the rim).

Compare that to the Horry incident, when all of the players gathered up after, and Horry delivered a shot to Bell. Also Arles, I believe it was you who earlier said there were no flagrant fouls issued during the Horry thing...I'm not sure if you missed it, or if it was one of those "after-the-fact" calls, but the articles on the suspension say that Bobert got a flagrant.

I don't like it at all...but unless there is a clear-cut definition somewhere of what is and isn't an "altercation," I don't think the NBA messed up. And that sucks, because a rule like this obviously has a tremendous role in the entire playoffs now. I just hope, like I said earlier, that this is another way for the elimination of this rule to gather steam.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

So the NBA is now openly fixing games?

They've been doing it for years.

After watching a lot of the playoffs this year, I'm convinced there is a clear cut way to win games:

1) Foul on every possession, both offensive and defensive. I mean every single one. Go over the back, set moving screens, shove people openly. Club people. EVERY possession, EVERY time. No exceptions.

2) Now this is very, very important. You can't do #1 without also doing #2. Cry like a wounded four year old whenever a foul is called on you. I'm not talking about a little crying or a shoulder shrug. I'm talking about going up to the ref and crying for thirty seconds. Again, do this on every foul. No exceptions.

That's it. Just keep doing those two things. The Utah Jazz, San Antonio Spurs and Detroit Pistons are incredibly successful at it. All of them foul repeatedly. The thing is, the fouls aren't called at the end of the game. In the final 4 minutes all of these teams get away with whatever they want with impunity.

As far as the cheap shot rule, they need to make some major adjustments to the rule:

1) First and foremost, if you commit a cheap foul with under 2 minutes left in the game OR your team +/- 15, you are suspended for 20 games. End of discussion. The NBA continues to punish the team victimized by the cheap shot more than the team who commits it. This has to stop. It's happened twice this year. In NY, Collins gets suspended for a handfull of games while the Nuggets season is imploded. In SA, the Suns now are decimated while the Spurs lose a role player. It's BS and the NBA should be smart enough to understand it.

2) If you leave the bench, you get suspended. Again, end of discussion. Both ways though. Tim Duncan should get suspended, so should Bruce Bowen.


None of these things will happen. The NBA does openly fix games. They don't even try to hide it anymore. It's ridiculous how the games are managed and how certain teams get away with murder while others aren't allowed to walk onto the court. Carmelo got called for four offensive fouls in the biggest game of the Nuggets/Spurs series. In game 3 of the Suns/Spurs series Amare gets cheap foul after cheap foul called on him while Bowen abuses people on every possession and gets 2 fouls in 39 minutes.

My only hope is that Stern calls it quits and I can start paying more attention to a game I really love. As of now, the hockey playoffs are about 25x better and I'm awaiting the start of the NFL season.

[Groundhog]

Why exactly would the NBA fix it so that the Spurs win over the entertaining Suns? I have a feeling that Stern would MUCH rather the Suns playing in the finals than a Spurs-Pistons matchup.

As much as I personally disagree with the Phoenix suspensions, they did break the rules, so I'm not going to complain too much about it.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Now? Did you watch the Lakers-Kings a few years ago?

or Lakers-Spurs, where that guy got a 3 second shot off in .4

[SnDvls]

look for next year in the playoffs to see a lot of late hard bench clearing fouls by many teams 11th or 12th man on stars of the other team...the NBA has set it self up to reward this kind of play now, unless they correct their "off the bench" rule this offseason.

[miami_fan]

I hope the Bulls, Pistons, Jazz, Warriors, Cavs and Nets have all talked to their players about their behavior for the rest of the playoffs. There will be a overraction by the refs to any hard fouls/cheap shots. I expect flagrants and T's to be handed out at a pace that would make Joey Crawford cringe.

[RGunner]

How is the NBA getting out of hand with suspensions? Last year they were WAY worse. Stackhouse got suspended in the finals for a foul on Shaq that I have seen committed at least twice this playoffs without even a fine. Davis doesn't get suspended for an obvious cheap shot to Fisher, Richardson even admitted he wasn't going for the ball he was trying to take him out, nothing. You're in the NBA, you know the rules, don't leave the bench. Nash can take care of himself, there's not gunna be a huge brawl, don't be an idiot and leave the court thinking you have to run to check on him like hes a little kid. I think its dumb that a stupid foul by Horry is going to ruin alot of this series, but rules are rules...If you break a rule in your workplace, but have a good reason why, it doesn't matter, you're still in trouble...as Shaq said on the postgame last night, do the crime, do the time.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by RGunner

Nash can take care of himself, there's not gunna be a huge brawl, don't be an idiot and leave the court thinking you have to run to check on him like hes a little kid.

True. 99% of NBA "fights" emulate women swinging their purses at each other to get the most discounted items at a huge sale. Outside of Rudy T, has anyone ever been hurt in an NBA altercation?

[miami_fan]

So the Pistons did not learn anything from last year?

[Groundhog]

I'm not watching the game, but looking at the box score the Bulls are just shooting the lights out... don't know if it's just due to soft D or what, but I don't know that there's much you can do about it when a team is hitting 60+% from the field.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm not watching the game, but looking at the box score the Bulls are just shooting the lights out... don't know if it's just due to soft D or what, but I don't know that there's much you can do about it when a team is hitting 60+% from the field.

The Pistons really came out lackadaisical tonight. No rotations on players going to the hole. Wide open shots all over the place.

[Atocep]

And here's how they defend the decision....

The Suns countered by saying that Duncan and Bruce Bowen were guilty of a similar leaving-the-bench offense in Game 4's first half when San Antonio's Francisco Elson fell on the Suns' James Jones after a dunk. That play was also reviewed, but Jackson -- while conceding that Duncan "should not have been on the playing court" -- said that the league determined there was "no cause for the suspension rule" to be applied because the Elson-Jones tangle was not deemed to be an altercation.

[Logan]

Won't be popular, but it works for me.

I'm curious if anybody would care about this if Horry-Nash never happened.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Logan

Won't be popular, but it works for me.

I'm curious if anybody would care about this if Horry-Nash never happened.

My problem with Duncan and Bowen not being suspended is it creates grey area in what was supposed to be a very cut and dry rule.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

My problem with Duncan and Bowen not being suspended is it creates grey area in what was supposed to be a very cut and dry rule.

I don't see how exactly. Jackson stated that one player falling over another, and that being the end of everything, as they didn't get in each other's faces or have to be separated by the refs, does not meet the NBA's definition of an altercation.

[Brian Swartz]

What I want to know is, why exactly is Horry-Nash a bigger deal than Davis-Fisher or Richardson-Okur, both of which are IMO inarguably worse and all those guys are playing as we speak.

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

What I want to know is, why exactly is Horry-Nash a bigger deal than Davis-Fisher or Richardson-Okur, both of which are IMO inarguably worse and all those guys are playing as we speak.

Especially Davis/Fisher. How Baron Davis is playing tonight I have no idea. Completely escapes all logic and justice.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Logan

I don't see how exactly. Jackson stated that one player falling over another, and that being the end of everything, as they didn't get in each other's faces or have to be separated by the refs, does not meet the NBA's definition of an altercation.

Looked to me like Duncan stepped on the floor anticipating an altercation, though. If they determined that there is wasn't an altercation he should at least been fined because he had no business being on the floor in that situation.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Looked to me like Duncan stepped on the floor anticipating an altercation, though. If they determined that there is wasn't an altercation he should at least been fined because he had no business being on the floor in that situation.

Exactly. Regardless of whether it was actually an altercation, what the heck was Duncan doing on the floor? We all know why. That alone should get him suspended, as he certainly violates the spirit of that rule, if not the letter.

But, of course, the NBA makes awful decisions like this day in and day out. Gotta rush to protect good ole boy Duncan.

And this coming from an acknowledged Suns hater.

[stevew]

I don't know why the Suns are worried.....they have a 2 time MVP on their team, and he wasn't suspended.



All bitterness aside, it's lame to suspend people for playoff games. Fine the hell out of them and suspend them for a long time if they hit someone after coming off the bench. A silly way to possibly decide a series.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Looked to me like Duncan stepped on the floor anticipating an altercation, though. If they determined that there is wasn't an altercation he should at least been fined because he had no business being on the floor in that situation.

Totally agree.

[Karlifornia]

I found this Utah Jazz seating chart....

[kingfc22]

Jackson needs to stop shooting. Brick. Brick. Brick.

[Crapshoot]

Speaking of the NBA, has anyone else picked up Paul Shirley's new book? I'm enjoying it a lot, and if you're the type that liked his diaries on ESPN- you will too.

http://www.amazon.com/Can-Keep-Jerse...9290323&sr=8-1