Civilization 4

[ISiddiqui]

I just heard of the coolest feature (or bug as feature ). Apparently some people aren't hearing background music until... they research Music. Very interesting indeed.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

...but again, just like in Civ 3 the AI doesn't improve as you go up in levels the AI just "cheats" a little more with free units and quicker tech advancement and such(or so says the instruction book). I can't believe that they couldn't take their AI algorithms and refine them a little for each level you go up.

I doubt it's actually as easy as "refining them a little" with increasing difficulty. It's hard enough to make a "smart" AI... you're asking them to not only make the "smart" AI (which still needs to get a bunch of bonuses to compete) and then on top of that, also figure out how to make it play "dumber".

Personally, I'd rather have the ability to tune AI personality characteristics. e.g. ask for it to be less aggressive, that sort of thing.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

So just got the game last night and only played with it for about an hour. I'm actually pretty dissapointed. The graphics are super. The audio is excellent. Problem is I really don't care about these but I do realize this is what sells the games. The new implementation of religion and civics are a nice improvement but, of course, I have already found what appears to be a major AI trading problem. Yes I was playing on one of the lower levels but again, just like in Civ 3 the AI doesn't improve as you go up in levels the AI just "cheats" a little more with free units and quicker tech advancement and such(or so says the instruction book). I can't believe that they couldn't take their AI algorithms and refine them a little for each level you go up. That way instead of having to resort the the AI getting free stuff you would have to actually adapt to new things that the AI does not the same pittfalls that you encounter at the lower levels

What's the problem with it?

The plus is that supposedly the AI scripts will be modifiable once the SDK comes out. The python scripts and XML that builds a lot of the gaming structure is already available.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Hmmm...that actually had been my biggest concern, that they would turn this into a RoN/one sitting game because gamers nowadays are too impatient to play it out for 20-30 hours. But, I have no idea if this is just bullshit on my part or not.

To all civers: For comparison purposes, how long did an average main game of Civ3 take you?

So, just FYI - there's an XML file that specifically details out the Game Speed, for Epic, Normal, and Quick games.

Modifiable are the rates of: Growth, Training, Construct, Research, Build, Improve, Great People, Culture, Anarchy length, Golden Age length, Inflation (?), a handful of things I don't know what they mean, and the breakdown of what the years are by increments (i.e. 40 year increment x 50 turns, then 25 x 40 turns, then 20 x 70 turns, then 10 x 60 turns, then 5 x 130 turns, then 2 x 100 turns, then 1 x 200 turns).

[dixieflatline]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

I doubt it's actually as easy as "refining them a little" with increasing difficulty. It's hard enough to make a "smart" AI... you're asking them to not only make the "smart" AI (which still needs to get a bunch of bonuses to compete) and then on top of that, also figure out how to make it play "dumber".

Personally, I'd rather have the ability to tune AI personality characteristics. e.g. ask for it to be less aggressive, that sort of thing.

I haven't played this version much so I can't comment on the differing AI personality or not. That would be nice but again I just don't see why it would be difficult to adjust AI for each level. I'm no AI expert but just off the top of my head here is my suggestion. It appears Civ AI makes it decisions based off something like:

AI Action taken = Big Messy Equation(BME for short)

I propose chaging it to something like:

AI Action taken = BME * multiplier

where the multiplier is a random number taken from a gaussian(normal) distribution(centered at 1) with a spread that decreases as you go up in level(maybe to 0 at the highest level).

This way every decision the low level AI makes has a chance that it doesn't follow the optimum decision if there wasn't a multiplier. It would make some incorrect choices(in trading or war) and be easier to defeat. As you go up in difficultly the fewer mistakes the AI would make.

I agree, making a strong AI is hard work. Making an AI weaker once you have a strong AI shouldn't be that difficult though.

[dixieflatline]

Originally Posted by Celeval

What's the problem with it?

The plus is that supposedly the AI scripts will be modifiable once the SDK comes out. The python scripts and XML that builds a lot of the gaming structure is already available.

Hopefully this is the case. I don't want to give something away that could decrease someone's enjoyment of the game but the tech for gold(or tech for tech+gold) trade appears to be very exploitable. I do remember that there were some nice improvements after a few patches were out in Civ 3 as well so not all hope is lost.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I'm no AI expert either, but I would imagine that a problem with weakening an AI stems from the fact that none of the AI's decisions are independent of each other. If you simply reduce it to "at low level, they'll make the wrong decision 50% of the time, but at high level, they'll only make the wrong decision 10% of the time", it can't work. One wrong decision will affect dozens of decisions later. Also, the impact of one decision will determine whether a future decision is right or wrong later on down the road.

15 minutes into game time: Decision A is right, Decision B is wrong.
30 minutes into game time: Decision C is right only if Decision A was made 15 minutes ago. Decision D is right only if Decision B was made 15 minutes ago.
60 minutes into game time: Decision E is right only if Decision A was made 45 minutes ago. Decision F is right only if Decision A was made 45 minutes ago and Decision D was made 30 minutes ago. Decision G is right ...

Well, I think I've gotten my idea across. Also, we know that it would almost never be an either/or decision. There would be, as you mentioned, an "optimum" decision, and then there would be decisions with varying degrees of appropriateness besides that. Since every decision is dependent on many factors before (and perhaps after?) the decision is made, it would get extremely cumbersome to just tell the AI to do something "wrong" at any particular time.

[gstelmack]

The problem with designing AI like this is that it's hard enough just to write an AI that is competitive, let alone really, really good. So you write an AI that plays well, and then tweak side parameters. Some games do this through cheating, while others have other values they can adjust. For example, you can make an FPS AI tougher by having it aim faster. That's not a "better" AI, just an AI that reacts more quickly. RTS' can do the same thing by adjusting how quickly they can take actions.

Sometimes in a strategy game you can tweak parameters that make the AI "smarter". For example, early chess AIs (even many modern ones?) can be adjusted by changing how many moves they can look ahead or consider at one time.

Not sure what applies to Civ.

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Personally, I'd rather have the ability to tune AI personality characteristics. e.g. ask for it to be less aggressive, that sort of thing.

Funny you should ask.

<iWonderConstructRand>20</iWonderConstructRand>
<iBaseAttitude>0</iBaseAttitude>
<iBasePeaceWeight>8</iBasePeaceWeight>
<iPeaceWeightRand>3</iPeaceWeightRand>
<iWarmongerRespect>0</iWarmongerRespect>
<iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold>10</iRefuseToTalkWarThreshold>
<iNoTechTradeThreshold>5</iNoTechTradeThreshold>
<iTechTradeKnownPercent>30</iTechTradeKnownPercent>
<iMaxGoldTradePercent>5</iMaxGoldTradePercent>
<iMaxGoldPerTurnTradePercent>10</iMaxGoldPerTurnTradePercent>
<iMaxWarRand>200</iMaxWarRand>
<iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio>90</iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio>
<iMaxWarDistantPowerRatio>80</iMaxWarDistantPowerRatio>
<iMaxWarMinAdjacentLandPercent>3</iMaxWarMinAdjacentLandPercent>
<iLimitedWarRand>160</iLimitedWarRand>
<iLimitedWarPowerRatio>100</iLimitedWarPowerRatio>
<iDogpileWarRand>100</iDogpileWarRand>
<iMakePeaceRand>20</iMakePeaceRand>
<iDeclareWarTradeRand>40</iDeclareWarTradeRand>
<iDemandRebukedSneakProb>100</iDemandRebukedSneakProb>
<iDemandRebukedWarProb>0</iDemandRebukedWarProb>
<iRazeCityProb>0</iRazeCityProb>
<iBuildUnitProb>25</iBuildUnitProb>
<iBaseAttackOddsChange>2</iBaseAttackOddsChange>
<iAttackOddsChangeRand>10</iAttackOddsChangeRand>
<iWorseRankDifferenceAttitudeChange>0</iWorseRankDifferenceAttitudeChange>

That's about a third of Washington's entry in the CIV4LeaderHeadsInfo.xml file. There's plenty more - not that anyone necessarily understands it at this point, but it's out there.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Hmmm...that actually had been my biggest concern, that they would turn this into a RoN/one sitting game because gamers nowadays are too impatient to play it out for 20-30 hours. But, I have no idea if this is just bullshit on my part or not.

To all civers: For comparison purposes, how long did an average main game of Civ3 take you?

This is from an interview with Meier:


IGNPC: Was there anything in particular about the last version, Civilization 3, that you wanted to step away from?

Sid Meier: In contrast to Civ 3, we'd like a game that plays a little more rapidly. Civ games can be epic, and a certain amount of epic is good, but you also want to get a feeling that you're moving forward and getting to the next technology. As with all of our Civ games, we give you a lot of options but I think this game is oriented to move a little faster and take you through the centuries a little more quickly.

[dixieflatline]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

15 minutes into game time: Decision A is right, Decision B is wrong.
30 minutes into game time: Decision C is right only if Decision A was made 15 minutes ago. Decision D is right only if Decision B was made 15 minutes ago.
60 minutes into game time: Decision E is right only if Decision A was made 45 minutes ago. Decision F is right only if Decision A was made 45 minutes ago and Decision D was made 30 minutes ago. Decision G is right ...

Well, I think I've gotten my idea across. Also, we know that it would almost never be an either/or decision.

I completely agree that you run into issues like this where you can't get C right if you got A wrong. If you think about a game of chess it's easy to think about a bad decision compounding on itself. While you would have to be careful about how many wrong decisions you have the AI making I don't think there is any way to get away from the compounding errors. In fact, in civ 3 even with the last patch there were some horrible decisions that the AI was making on every difficulty level that compounded and compounded until the game was lost.

Secondly, the multiplier would work for decisions that aren't yes/no types as well. For instance, deciding which space a worker should move to next is a very chess like problem and I am assuiming they solve that like how AI solves chess problems, by calculating a value for each space and then choosing the highest value. If you added the multiplier to each spaces value then choose the highest value space you would have an effective "weaker" AI solution.

BTW, this is just a thought that took 10 seconds to think about. If the AI team wanted to create a stronger/weaker AI for each level I'm sure they could come up with a better solution. But it appears, for whatever reason, they choose not to go that route.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Yes, it is.

Thanks! I downloaded the driver update, but I don't know what to do with the zip file -- where do I extract the contents to?

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

But it appears, for whatever reason, they choose not to go that route.

Here's what goes into the definition of the difficulty levels (this xml diving is fun!):

- Free wins against barbarians (5 at Settler level, 2 at Noble, 0 at Deity)
- Maintenance adjustments (# of units free, % of total cost, % of cities that count towards it, etc)
- Cost of Unit building/Research/Civic Upkeep
- Health / Happiness / Attitude Bonuses
- Tech Trading Modifiers
- How often animals appear
- How often barbarians appear
- Combat bonuses / subtractions for barbarians and animals
- Starting Units
- Probability the AI will declare war (25% at Settler, 100% at Noble/Deity)
- Modifiers to the AI's building ability (160% cost for most things at Settler, 100% at Noble, 60% at Deity)
- What you get (and probabilities of) out of goodie huts
- Free techs (Wheel, Agriculture, Mining at Settler; none at Noble/Deity)
- Free techs for the AI (none at Settler/Noble; Wheel, Agriculture, Hunting, Archery at Deity)

I bolded the Tech trading, since that's what the earlier concern was about - that's adjustable by difficulty level, apparently, in terms of willingness and such. Easier levels = easier to do.

[Celeval]

Want to really screw with someone? Make the goody huts pop barbarian Modern Armor.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Want to really screw with someone? Make the goody huts pop barbarian Modern Armor.

i would do that if it would make the AI good

[dixieflatline]

Originally Posted by Celeval

Here's what goes into the definition of the difficulty levels (this xml diving is fun!):
- Tech Trading Modifiers
I bolded the Tech trading, since that's what the earlier concern was about - that's adjustable by difficulty level, apparently, in terms of willingness and such. Easier levels = easier to do.

Ok this looks like it could be a step in the right direction. It's possible that messing this this might fix the "problem" I encountered. As I have just started messing with the game last night I haven't looked at the XML stuff at all. It does appear to be pretty similiar to the Puresim xml which is a good thing. Thanks for locating this Celeval. It's reasons like this I post on boards and someone on FOFC tends to always find the goods.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Thanks! I downloaded the driver update, but I don't know what to do with the zip file -- where do I extract the contents to?

Well, you can unzip the file into a desktop folder.
Then right click My Computer\Hardware\Device Manager.
Select Display Adapters; hilight your video card.
Right Click; select Update Driver.
Follow the instructions in the wizard, and it should update the drivers.

this assumes you are using Windows XP.

[ISiddiqui]

Hey, Bucc... good news. Reading over at Poly, YIN likes the game! Amazing!

Of course you do have people complaining about graphical bugs (meaning they can't play it), but Yin isn't one of them. Has to bode well for you, old timer .

[Galaxy]

YAY! Just picked it up.

[Ksyrup]

I got mine at BB during lunch. There were only 2 on the shelf, which I thought was odd. Then I saw another box of them on a cart. I think they had already sold most of one box by the time I got there. Circuit City still doesn't have it yet.

[ISiddiqui]

I gotta wait a bit more. Amazon has mine as 'shipping soon'. Damn them!

Oh well... at least its the pre-order special edition .

[vex]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I got mine at BB during lunch. There were only 2 on the shelf, which I thought was odd. Then I saw another box of them on a cart. I think they had already sold most of one box by the time I got there. Circuit City still doesn't have it yet.

Neither does Walmart. I'm hoping they get their shipment after 4pm like they usually do.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Anyone with sense even turns off the animations after about 15 minutes of playing the first game in Civ games.

I think sometimes you confuse "What I would do" with "What anyone with sense would do."

Not that I disagree about requiring hardware T & L in this game, but I just thought I'd point that out.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I've forgotten what the word is on multiplayer. Is this something that's going to be added in a later update? I'd buy copies for me and my wife so we could team up against the "AI" over the LAN, but if that's not possible in the current release, I'll wait. Any help?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I think sometimes you confuse "What I would do" with "What anyone with sense would do."

Not that I disagree about requiring hardware T & L in this game, but I just thought I'd point that out.

I'm not one bit confused. As is normally the case, I was very specific, and said precisely what I meant to say.

[vex]

...

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I've forgotten what the word is on multiplayer. Is this something that's going to be added in a later update? I'd buy copies for me and my wife so we could team up against the "AI" over the LAN, but if that's not possible in the current release, I'll wait. Any help?

It's in. Haven't tried it yet, though. The teaming is supposed to be much tighter this time around - if a permanent alliance is in place (as I'm sure my wife and I have will have as well), you share sightlines, research, and some other stuff.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by vexroid

...

I agree completely.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I've forgotten what the word is on multiplayer. Is this something that's going to be added in a later update? I'd buy copies for me and my wife so we could team up against the "AI" over the LAN, but if that's not possible in the current release, I'll wait. Any help?

That is supposedly a feature of the current game - not a later update. But I don't have the game yet...

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by KWhit

That is supposedly a feature of the current game - not a later update. But I don't have the game yet...

It appears to be so, but I haven't tried it yet.

[Godzilla Blitz]

I may have come across a bug...

Started a game last night on "Warlord" difficulty (3 of 9, one easier than the standard Noble difficulty). By the time I quit last night at 1400AD or so, my score was about double that of each of the two civilizations I had encountered. Things were going pretty well, and it seemed that I had some big advantages over the AI nations that made things easy for me.

Today, however, when I loaded last night's game, the difficulty setting is listed as "Noble". I just continued for two hours and things seem much more difficult. Russia attacked me and has been able to hold ground they gained in their initial invasion. They are producing units like crazy. My advances seem to be coming slower, and the the AI countries seem both more active and more productive. During the afternoon's session, both of the other countries were able to keep pace with my score.

In other words, I think my game jumped a level of difficulty on its own. I might be mistaken and actually played at "Noble" difficulty last night, but things sure feel more difficult now than last night.

Anyone else hear of anything like this?

[Buzzbee]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Anyone with sense even turns off the animations after about 15 minutes of playing the first game in Civ games.

Originally Posted by Samdari

I think sometimes you confuse "What I would do" with "What anyone with sense would do."

Not that I disagree about requiring hardware T & L in this game, but I just thought I'd point that out.

Originally Posted by SkyDog

I'm not one bit confused. As is normally the case, I was very specific, and said precisely what I meant to say.

A SkyDog never mis-speaks. He says precisely what he means to.

[SackAttack]

Didn't have time to really get into it because I have to go to work, but it runs beautifully on my desktop.

For what it's worth, that means 3500+ AMD Athlon, onboard Radeon X200 (128 MB), 1 gig of RAM. For those of you on the fence, hopefully that's useful.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buzzbee

A SkyDog never mis-speaks. He says precisely what he means to.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Thoughts...

Combat is a blast. I LOVE the unit promotions and experience system. Makes combat very interesting. I wonder, though, to what degree the AI will effectively use the system.

The AI is, well, interesting. Got a chance to see it fight for two hours today. Overall it seems a mixed bag, but I'm not even sure what difficulty it's playing at right now given what's happened with my saved game (see my previous post). If this is the "Noble" AI, though, I think I would have to say that it is quite lacking.

Good things...
Russia launched a decent surprise invasion that snagged two cities near the border. They then dug in and tried to hold the cities from my counterattack.

They have tried to get units into my country through Germany with whom they have an "open door" policy. Most of these have been single units and they seem bent on pillaging. Hunting them down has been a pain (in a good way). Very effective strategy.

They launched one naval invasion consisting of two galleys and two armies.

Bad things...

They launched one naval invasion consisting only of two galleys and two armies. The armies charged a heavily defended city and were slaughtered.

I have been able to launch several single-unit cavalry raids behind enemy lines. Despite Russia having four or more units in most of their cities, they ignore or react very slowly to the pillaging I am doing. Eventually they wipe my units out, but not before I pillage a half dozen or more areas. It must be creating economic havoc by now, as I have been able to pillage two-thirds of their vital resource areas. All their workers are holed up in cities now as well. Would at least make a lot of sense for them to try to rebuild some of their countryside with protected workers, but they aren't doing anything.

After their initial attack, Russia seems to be stockpiling units in cities, content on holding their ground. They have launched some minor incursions into my country, but nothing with direction or force. They also seem to have their armies evenly distributed over all their cities, which is a bit silly since all the fighting is in the western end of their country.

They have done some stupid things with individual units. Once they tried to bring a settler in through Germany. I assume this was to try to build a new city somewhere in my country. Moving the settler next to one of my heavily defended cities was probably not the best move for them. I captured the unit with ease. Just before I stopped playing, they moved a single catapult into my country, next to another heavily defended city. Humm.

Question...

Does anyone know how to add a unit/building to the end of the city construction queue? Whenever I add a unit/building for construction, it jumps to the front of the queue. I haven't been able to figure out how to add something to the end of the queue.

[Galaxy]

Ok....I loaded both discs, and it keeps telling me, "Please put in the correct CD-ROM, and hit the ok button to restart, ect...". I put in disc two, the play disc.

[SackAttack]

I think they have it backwards, Galaxy. I had the same problem but it ran fine when I put in Disc 1.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I think they have it backwards, Galaxy. I had the same problem but it ran fine when I put in Disc 1.

Alright, I'll try that. Thanks.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

I think they have it backwards, Galaxy. I had the same problem but it ran fine when I put in Disc 1.

I had the same problem. The game runs only with my "install" disc in the CD-drive. The "play" disc won't let me play.

[twothree]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz
[b

Question...[/b]

Does anyone know how to add a unit/building to the end of the city construction queue? Whenever I add a unit/building for construction, it jumps to the front of the queue. I haven't been able to figure out how to add something to the end of the queue.

Hold down shift and left click.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Thoughts...
Bad things...

They launched one naval invasion consisting only of two galleys and two armies. The armies charged a heavily defended city and were slaughtered.

this may or may not be a bad thing...it may indicate that the AI isnt actually aware of everything going on in your country. i always got the feeling from the higher levels on civ3 that the computer was always aware of my troop strenghs in various cities, because they would alway stop their invasion short of my strongly defended points.

[vex]

Originally Posted by saldana

this may or may not be a bad thing...it may indicate that the AI isnt actually aware of everything going on in your country. i always got the feeling from the higher levels on civ3 that the computer was always aware of my troop strenghs in various cities, because they would alway stop their invasion short of my strongly defended points.

Very good point.

[twothree]

I should add, that I found that listed in the Hints section of the Civilopedia. The Hints section is a MUST read to start learning the many keyboard shortcuts.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hey, Bucc... good news. Reading over at Poly, YIN likes the game! Amazing!

Of course you do have people complaining about graphical bugs (meaning they can't play it), but Yin isn't one of them. Has to bode well for you, old timer .

Imran, we still have to wait the requisite 30 days. He initially liked Civ3 even though it wasn't the game he wanted but when that wore off, he trashed it like a tornado eyeing a trailer park.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Anyone else getting a "failed to initialize renderer" error message when they try to launch the game?

Sounds like there might be a fix for the renderer problem


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...9&pagenumber=1

[ISiddiqui]

Weeeee! It's shipping!

And I always like to play with animations, but they may have to be turned off because my computer kind of sucks .

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Imran, we still have to wait the requisite 30 days. He initially liked Civ3 even though it wasn't the game he wanted but when that wore off, he trashed it like a tornado eyeing a trailer park.

True, but he had a decent excuse for that one... CivIII really DID suck .

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by dixieflatline

So just got the game last night and only played with it for about an hour. I'm actually pretty dissapointed. The graphics are super. The audio is excellent. Problem is I really don't care about these but I do realize this is what sells the games. The new implementation of religion and civics are a nice improvement but, of course, I have already found what appears to be a major AI trading problem. Yes I was playing on one of the lower levels but again, just like in Civ 3 the AI doesn't improve as you go up in levels the AI just "cheats" a little more with free units and quicker tech advancement and such(or so says the instruction book). I can't believe that they couldn't take their AI algorithms and refine them a little for each level you go up. That way instead of having to resort the the AI getting free stuff you would have to actually adapt to new things that the AI does not the same pittfalls that you encounter at the lower levels

Early Impression

Even single-player and multiplayer options have been improved in Civ IV. The single-player game offers much-improved artificial intelligence that seems to cheat much less than in previous games, or not at all. In the single-player game, rival nations won't mysteriously explore the entire world in two turns, nor will they use those two turns to magically build a network of five cities where there were none before. Computer-controlled nations will also make much more reasonable bids at the table, but they can't be easily bribed with small handfuls of cash, either. The single-player difficulty seems to scale extremely well by offering a very gentle introduction for beginners at the lowest levels and a suitably tough challenge for experts at the highest levels.

[vex]

Just got it!

[saldana]

Originally Posted by vexroid

Just got it!

i didnt kiss my wifes ass well enough yet to get it

[vex]

Originally Posted by saldana

i didnt kiss my wifes ass well enough yet to get it

Not that it does me much good, I have to go help prepare for a chili feed