Ping: The One True Dark Jedi - Page 10

HornedFrog Purple · 07-01-2004, 07:10 AM

well if it makes you all feel any better I finally found the stupid settings for the AI evaluation improvement. I am banning myself from the OOTP board.

Samdari · 07-01-2004, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

man, I don't think any post after Subby tearing into Noop was really worth reading here. If you got that far, the rest is just redundant.

Yeah, but what else are you going to do until football starts? Watch MLS? WNBA?

gstelmack · 07-01-2004, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

I don't know that you could say that I'min LL's camp. I think that SD probably should have thanks the specific individuals whose packs he used, but I also think that LL went entirely the wrong way about getting that corrected. You can put me in the neutral camp...

Ditto, but the other way. You can't say I'm in SD's camp. Many of us have tried very hard to clearly state they were both wrong. SkyDog should have given credit in the first place, but LL is being a hypocrite by complaining about not being given credit when he did not give credit to his sources originally. I think that puts me in the neutral camp as well.

This will be great if we can twist this into a debate about who was in whose camp

SirFozzie · 07-01-2004, 08:23 AM

Let's not and say we didn't

..

honestly, the two principal players in this date, LL and SD, have settled it. So why can't we do the same?

WSUCougar · 07-01-2004, 08:40 AM

I just wish someone would light a fire under Axxon's ass. The guy's not passionate enough. Where's the fire in his belly?

Fritz · 07-01-2004, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Noop, I usually let people slide with rants, particularly when they feel that they've been attacked. However, the "die slow" just puts it over the top for me. I think you need three days in the box to cool off.

"die slow" is miami slang for "have a coke and a smile mother fucker."

Noop is a big Cosby fan.

Subby · 07-01-2004, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

You know what I don't care. You all swear your so perfect that you have never made a mistake before. Fuck Subby fuck him cause personally I don't give a fuck about him or his stupid sim league. I offer an opinion just like anyone else but yet I get ripped often times unfairly because I am up against the crowd. Most pissing matches I have got in with most of you I have made good points but since I have a label it gets lost. I never take the low when some of you proceed to personal attacks against me. But now I don't care.... fuck you, your mama, your daddy and whoever the hell you claim as a friend. Because now I refuse to take the high road I will drop to all your levels and say fuck you. Most if not all of you are older then I am but yet... you all act like little bitches and to those bitches fuck you. This is not to everyone but if you feel this is about you then guess what fuck you die slow.

FWIW, I completely agree with everything you said here...

DukeRulesMAB · 07-01-2004, 10:27 AM

Without trying to reignite the flames of this thread, I would like to point out that post 441 and the various posts it refers to contain some pretty seriously offensive material. Any long time poster on this board should know better than to post something like that.

cuervo72 · 07-01-2004, 10:29 AM

Did something happen here? Did I miss anything? Where's the cheese?

GrantDawg · 07-01-2004, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Galt

I find it very strange that there is etiquette and manners for giving credit to someone who has used and abused other people's copyrighted work. I'm not taking sides here, but let's be honest - modding player pictures (that are someone else's work) is already borderline illegal (not making a profit from it helps). Saying SD was "bad" for not thanking someone doing borderline illegal stuff is just strange to me.

Of course, I do understand that we in this community like modders and their work, so SD should probably thank him. However, talking about "morality" and books/music hypotheticals, just doesn't make sense. This is a shady practice, but one we all like and enjoy. SD made a mistake - who here hasn't made one? He offered to correct that mistake - that seems pretty fair to me.

Thank you. I cannot see how a person taking other's copyrighted material (pictures from many uncredited sources) can be so pissy about not getting credit from someone else. "They spent hours cropping the pics" seems to suggest this pictures are suddenly theirs. They are not. They belong to the photgrapher/website that they were taken from. If you don't have to credit except for in a broad way, why does Skydog have to credit more than the genric way he did?

cuervo72 · 07-01-2004, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

fuck you, your mama, your daddy and whoever the hell you claim as a friend

enemies +1

Samdari · 07-01-2004, 10:41 AM

So, does anyone feel the bannings are the FOFC equivalent of the medieval entertainments known as public hangings?

GrantDawg · 07-01-2004, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

*whistles*

I have that picture in my wallet.

LivnLegend · 07-01-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Thank you. I cannot see how a person taking other's copyrighted material (pictures from many uncredited sources) can be so pissy about not getting credit from someone else. "They spent hours cropping the pics" seems to suggest this pictures are suddenly theirs. They are not. They belong to the photgrapher/website that they were taken from. If you don't have to credit except for in a broad way, why does Skydog have to credit more than the genric way he did?

Holy Geezus! This is still going on??
A couple of you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. All I said was that in the context of the OOTP gaming community I felt it was wrong for someone to take the work someone else did and re-release it under their own name without a courtesy credit to the guy who did the work. SkyDog was packaging these files because he liked them and wanted others to have them. You make it sound like we were trafficking narcotics with all this legal BS and copyright talk. Another guy compared it to stealing cars. It was a simple courtesy issue. Do yourself a favor and just understand this was never the global issue you want it to be.

Schmidty · 07-01-2004, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeRulesMAB

Without trying to reignite the flames of this thread, I would like to point out that post 441 and the various posts it refers to contain some pretty seriously offensive material. Any long time poster on this board should know better than to post something like that.

I agree with you.

GrantDawg · 07-01-2004, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

Holy Geezus! This is still going on??
A couple of you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. All I said was that in the context of the OOTP gaming community I felt it was wrong for someone to take the work someone else did and re-release it under their own name without a courtesy credit to the guy who did the work. SkyDog was packaging these files because he liked them and wanted others to have them. You make it sound like we were trafficking narcotics with all this legal BS and copyright talk. Another guy compared it to stealing cars. It was a simple courtesy issue. Do yourself a favor and just understand this was never the global issue you want it to be.

I didn't say it was like stealing cars or selling drugs, but what you did was at the least comparable to what Skydog did. In fact, since what you used was someones livelyhood, it may be a tad worse.

Bonegavel · 07-01-2004, 12:30 PM

::thunk::squish::thud::

[sound of a GrantLawg doused in gas being tossed on the dying embers]

GrantDawg · 07-01-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

::thunk::squish::thud::

[sound of a GrantLawg doused in gas being tossed on the dying embers]

Just keeping the fire burning. Actually, when I posted I hadn't read that Axxon had already completed this arguement.

Draft Dodger · 07-01-2004, 12:44 PM

I'm still utterly amazed by how many people have missed the point on this.

GrantDawg · 07-01-2004, 12:45 PM

BTW, I'm not saying anyone making these packs should be arrested or anything. I do the same thing when I cut and paste stories here (though I usually show a link to the webpage as credit, I still do so without permission). I just agree with several others that it is a bit hypocritical to be jumping all over Skydog while you are doing the exact same thing. That is all.

Coffee Warlord · 07-01-2004, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I'm still utterly amazed by how many people have missed the point on this.

There's no point any longer. It's pretty much entertaining keyboard masturbation at this point.

gstelmack · 07-01-2004, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I'm still utterly amazed by how many people have missed the point on this.

There is a difference between "missing the point" and "not agreeing with the point."

GoldenEagle · 07-01-2004, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

Holy Geezus! This is still going on??
A couple of you guys are blowing this way out of proportion. All I said was that in the context of the OOTP gaming community I felt it was wrong for someone to take the work someone else did and re-release it under their own name without a courtesy credit to the guy who did the work. SkyDog was packaging these files because he liked them and wanted others to have them. You make it sound like we were trafficking narcotics with all this legal BS and copyright talk. Another guy compared it to stealing cars. It was a simple courtesy issue. Do yourself a favor and just understand this was never the global issue you want it to be.

Then why when he offered to put your name in the credit file you declined? Id it was REALLY about that, wouldn't you just agree to that so the file can back to the community where it belongs?

WSUCougar · 07-01-2004, 02:26 PM

I'd just like to point out that this thread has over 5000 views.

Carry on.

Bonegavel · 07-01-2004, 02:47 PM

My advice for "attaboy/credit" conscious modders (meaning: you CANNOT sell your work and it is for the general public): only work on projects where you can copyright and/or own your own creations. Work on something under the GPL or better yet, make your own Baseball Sim where you can put your name in every line of code.

for(x=0;x<5;x++){ // LOOK AT ME
foo++; // I wrote this you know
} // took me a month
// thank god Bjarne Stroustrup didn't copyright c++ code

We all understand the time it takes for this type of "thankless" work to be completed. Most likely, you did it for your own enjoyment and then figured you could let others enjoy it. So you release it. Somebody else puts your "gratis" work in a compilation along with other people's "gratis" work and now more people will get to enjoy it. The onle problem is that the compiler didn't put your forum Handle in a readme. Other's are still enjoying your work, but they don't know who resized all those images. "That's it, screw you guys, i'm going home."

LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack

there, i might even put it in my sig.

Cecil Fielder · 07-01-2004, 02:57 PM

everyone who posted in this thread is a cuntwad, except for me.

Bonegavel · 07-01-2004, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cecil Fielder

everyone who posted in this thread is a cuntwad, except for me.

well said.

SirFozzie · 07-01-2004, 02:58 PM

no.. you're an ignorant fucktard

Samdari · 07-01-2004, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

There's no point any longer. It's pretty much entertaining keyboard masturbation at this point.

And yet you continue to view it?

You are entertained by keyboard masturbation?

korme · 07-01-2004, 03:07 PM

you guys are all arguing against LL with blinders on.

and andy samford is the gayest man alive.

GoldenEagle · 07-01-2004, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack
LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack

Nice use of C++. There is no sense in doing anything major when a simple loop will suffice. Good job Bonegavel.

Bonegavel · 07-01-2004, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty3281

you guys are all arguing against LL with blinders on.

shorty, go make a flame-thrower or something.

sabotai · 07-01-2004, 03:22 PM

You know what really would have solved this from the beginning? If LL had put in the readme file to credit him for the pictures if someone used them or something stating not to redistribute them at all.

I've seen MOD communities that freely exchanged and used files with credit at all. All they cared about was enhancing the game and if someone put their stuff to good use, all the better. The benefited as well.

I've also seen MOD communities that not only demanded credit, but charge money for their work (which always struck me as kind of odd...charging for 3rd party utilities and mods).

I see this as a simple misunderstanding that did not need to escalate so far. Both sides, I see, are equally wrong in that. Let this be a lesson, if you want credit, say so. If LL had included that in his readme, I doubt anyone would be on SD's side (or on the nuetral side). I'm not sure if he said so or not in his readme (if he did, I'd imagine someone would have brought it up) since I can't find his face pack.

LivnLegend · 07-01-2004, 04:06 PM

Thanks sabotai. Good advice, man. Too bad it took 500 posts and a bunch of mud flinging but your post was darn sensible!

The photo pack was the first mod I did for any game. I spent over 100 hours on it, usually after the kids had gone to bed and the wife was off watching Home & Garden Channel or TLC. I made it for myself first and after completing much of, decided to give it to others to use as well. It was well received in the OOTP community despite me giving it very little fanfare, mainly because it was the only file of its kind (anonymous looking players of all ages with all logos removed).

I never thought about the possibility of someone using it and claiming it as their own or someone, as SkyDog did, combining it with other people's efforts and re-releasing it. It's something that never entered my mind so I did not prepare for it (as you suggested with the readme file instructions) and I admittedly wasn't really in the right frame of mind or prepared to deal with it once it happened.

Anyway, you guys are certainly free to keep debating the issue but I can't imagine anthing will be added that will top sabotai's summary.

A few people in this thread thanked me for the work. You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed using it.

SirFozzie · 07-01-2004, 04:11 PM

And reasonableness and goodwill covered the land...

(nah.. this is FOFC after all... but I think this matter can be stamped well and truly closed now

)

Chubby · 07-01-2004, 04:13 PM

This thread alone is now turning Gamespy a profit.

Ben E Lou · 07-01-2004, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

This thread alone is now turning Gamespy a profit.

Fritz · 07-01-2004, 04:29 PM

people. I have exclusive rights to alter images of Skydog. Please read your membership agreements again.

korme · 07-01-2004, 04:37 PM

:ashamed:

Draft Dodger · 07-01-2004, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

There is a difference between "missing the point" and "not agreeing with the point."

I know.

Bonegavel · 07-01-2004, 07:39 PM

All this aside, modders are good folk that do a lot of work for no pay and I thank all of them for making the games we like, better.

Axxon · 07-01-2004, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

Thanks sabotai. Good advice, man. Too bad it took 500 posts and a bunch of mud flinging but your post was darn sensible!

The photo pack was the first mod I did for any game. I spent over 100 hours on it, usually after the kids had gone to bed and the wife was off watching Home & Garden Channel or TLC. I made it for myself first and after completing much of, decided to give it to others to use as well. It was well received in the OOTP community despite me giving it very little fanfare, mainly because it was the only file of its kind (anonymous looking players of all ages with all logos removed).

I never thought about the possibility of someone using it and claiming it as their own or someone, as SkyDog did, combining it with other people's efforts and re-releasing it. It's something that never entered my mind so I did not prepare for it (as you suggested with the readme file instructions) and I admittedly wasn't really in the right frame of mind or prepared to deal with it once it happened.

Anyway, you guys are certainly free to keep debating the issue but I can't imagine anthing will be added that will top sabotai's summary.

A few people in this thread thanked me for the work. You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed using it.

Well said. I don't really see where any more debate is needed; this just about wraps it up.

Even though I didn't ever use the face pack, thanks for the hard work and effort. It's always good when someone does something for the community.

Ksyrup · 07-16-2004, 10:11 AM

How in THE HELL did I miss this thread, not to mention the entire issue?!?!?!?!

Draft Dodger · 07-16-2004, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

How in THE HELL did I miss this thread, not to mention the entire issue?!?!?!?!

better yet...WHY in the hell did you have to bump the damn thing!

rkmsuf · 07-16-2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

better yet...WHY in the hell did you have to bump the damn thing!

glad to see you've given proper credit for the bumping.

Draft Dodger · 07-16-2004, 11:55 AM

well played

07-01-2004, 07:10 AM	#451
HornedFrog Purple Hattrick Moderator Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fort Worthless, Tx	well if it makes you all feel any better I finally found the stupid settings for the AI evaluation improvement. I am banning myself from the OOTP board. __________________ King of All FOFC Media!!! IHOF: Fort Worthless Fury- 2004 AOC Deep South Champions (not acknowledged via conspiracy)

07-01-2004, 08:23 AM	#454
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	Let's not and say we didn't .. honestly, the two principal players in this date, LL and SD, have settled it. So why can't we do the same? __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

07-01-2004, 08:40 AM	#455
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	I just wish someone would light a fire under Axxon's ass. The guy's not passionate enough. Where's the fire in his belly? __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

07-01-2004, 10:27 AM	#458
DukeRulesMAB College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alexandria, VA	Without trying to reignite the flames of this thread, I would like to point out that post 441 and the various posts it refers to contain some pretty seriously offensive material. Any long time poster on this board should know better than to post something like that. __________________ FOBL: Where anyone not in IAP FOFL: I may be the commish, but it's still pretty good.

07-01-2004, 10:29 AM	#459
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	Did something happen here? Did I miss anything? Where's the cheese? __________________ null

07-01-2004, 10:41 AM	#462
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	So, does anyone feel the bannings are the FOFC equivalent of the medieval entertainments known as public hangings? __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

07-01-2004, 12:30 PM	#467
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	::thunk::squish::thud:: [sound of a GrantLawg doused in gas being tossed on the dying embers]

07-01-2004, 12:44 PM	#469
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	I'm still utterly amazed by how many people have missed the point on this. __________________ Mile High Hockey

07-01-2004, 12:45 PM	#470
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	BTW, I'm not saying anyone making these packs should be arrested or anything. I do the same thing when I cut and paste stories here (though I usually show a link to the webpage as credit, I still do so without permission). I just agree with several others that it is a bit hypocritical to be jumping all over Skydog while you are doing the exact same thing. That is all.

07-01-2004, 02:26 PM	#474
WSUCougar Rider Of Rohan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Port Angeles, WA or Helm's Deep	I'd just like to point out that this thread has over 5000 views. Carry on. __________________ It's not the years...it's the mileage.

07-01-2004, 02:47 PM	#475
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	My advice for "attaboy/credit" conscious modders (meaning: you CANNOT sell your work and it is for the general public): only work on projects where you can copyright and/or own your own creations. Work on something under the GPL or better yet, make your own Baseball Sim where you can put your name in every line of code. for(x=0;x<5;x++){ // LOOK AT ME foo++; // I wrote this you know } // took me a month // thank god Bjarne Stroustrup didn't copyright c++ code We all understand the time it takes for this type of "thankless" work to be completed. Most likely, you did it for your own enjoyment and then figured you could let others enjoy it. So you release it. Somebody else puts your "gratis" work in a compilation along with other people's "gratis" work and now more people will get to enjoy it. The onle problem is that the compiler didn't put your forum Handle in a readme. Other's are still enjoying your work, but they don't know who resized all those images. "That's it, screw you guys, i'm going home." LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack LivnLegend from Glendale CA worked on a face pack there, i might even put it in my sig. Last edited by Bonegavel : 07-01-2004 at 02:48 PM.

07-01-2004, 02:57 PM	#476
Cecil Fielder Mascot Join Date: Jul 2003	everyone who posted in this thread is a cuntwad, except for me. __________________ HEY!! That's MY sandwich!

07-01-2004, 02:58 PM	#478
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	no.. you're an ignorant fucktard __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

07-01-2004, 03:07 PM	#480
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	you guys are all arguing against LL with blinders on. and andy samford is the gayest man alive.

07-01-2004, 03:22 PM	#483
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	You know what really would have solved this from the beginning? If LL had put in the readme file to credit him for the pictures if someone used them or something stating not to redistribute them at all. I've seen MOD communities that freely exchanged and used files with credit at all. All they cared about was enhancing the game and if someone put their stuff to good use, all the better. The benefited as well. I've also seen MOD communities that not only demanded credit, but charge money for their work (which always struck me as kind of odd...charging for 3rd party utilities and mods). I see this as a simple misunderstanding that did not need to escalate so far. Both sides, I see, are equally wrong in that. Let this be a lesson, if you want credit, say so. If LL had included that in his readme, I doubt anyone would be on SD's side (or on the nuetral side). I'm not sure if he said so or not in his readme (if he did, I'd imagine someone would have brought it up) since I can't find his face pack.

07-01-2004, 04:06 PM	#484
LivnLegend n00b Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Glendale, CA	Thanks sabotai. Good advice, man. Too bad it took 500 posts and a bunch of mud flinging but your post was darn sensible! The photo pack was the first mod I did for any game. I spent over 100 hours on it, usually after the kids had gone to bed and the wife was off watching Home & Garden Channel or TLC. I made it for myself first and after completing much of, decided to give it to others to use as well. It was well received in the OOTP community despite me giving it very little fanfare, mainly because it was the only file of its kind (anonymous looking players of all ages with all logos removed). I never thought about the possibility of someone using it and claiming it as their own or someone, as SkyDog did, combining it with other people's efforts and re-releasing it. It's something that never entered my mind so I did not prepare for it (as you suggested with the readme file instructions) and I admittedly wasn't really in the right frame of mind or prepared to deal with it once it happened. Anyway, you guys are certainly free to keep debating the issue but I can't imagine anthing will be added that will top sabotai's summary. A few people in this thread thanked me for the work. You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed using it. Last edited by LivnLegend : 07-01-2004 at 04:06 PM.

07-01-2004, 04:11 PM	#485
SirFozzie Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: The State of Insanity	And reasonableness and goodwill covered the land... (nah.. this is FOFC after all... but I think this matter can be stamped well and truly closed now ) __________________ Check out Foz's New Video Game Site, An 8-bit Mind in an 8GB world! http://an8bitmind.com

07-01-2004, 04:13 PM	#486
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	This thread alone is now turning Gamespy a profit. Last edited by Chubby : 07-01-2004 at 04:13 PM.

07-01-2004, 04:29 PM	#488
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	people. I have exclusive rights to alter images of Skydog. Please read your membership agreements again. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

07-01-2004, 04:37 PM	#489
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	:ashamed:

07-01-2004, 07:39 PM	#491
Bonegavel Awaiting Further Instructions... Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Macungie, PA	All this aside, modders are good folk that do a lot of work for no pay and I thank all of them for making the games we like, better.

07-16-2004, 10:11 AM	#493
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	How in THE HELL did I miss this thread, not to mention the entire issue?!?!?!?! __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

07-16-2004, 11:55 AM	#496
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	well played __________________ Mile High Hockey

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