11-07-2005, 04:37 PM | #151 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
Quote:
We have to keep in mind that the defense budget is only mostly for purposes of national defense. A large part of the defense budget is state-sponsored tech industry. |
|
11-07-2005, 04:44 PM | #152 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
|
Quote:
John - Your argument completely ignores the social aspects of government. I agree that the wealthy benefit from having a government that protects the stucture provided for them to make their wealth. A strong national defense protects the interests of the wealthy more than the poor, because as you said, the wealthy have more to lose. I don't argue that point. However, as the government is today, the poor DO benefit from the government. "The poor and middle class have less to lose by choosing an alternate political system. The wealthy, on the other hand, derive significant benefits that they should pay for." While this is true, the poor and middle-class are better off because of the current political/economic system than most any other viable alternative. Also, your argument ignores the fact that some of the income the wealthy pay in taxes does go to the poor. That, as far as I have thought it through, does not generally benefit the wealthy in any way that would justify them paying that tax. You say the wealthy should pay more than the poor because they derive greater benefit from the government. I can buy that argument, but only as long as that extra amount goes to protect the structure, and not to benefit the poor. Based on your justification for the wealthy to pay more in taxes, it seems that social programs would not be justified and should be cut or reduced. I haven't thought it through enough to make a definitive statement, so I'm open to alternative positions. I am of the opinion that government expense is far larger than it needs to be, and as a result, government income is as well. I am in favor of tax cuts, only if government expense is reduced as well.
__________________
Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz |
|
11-07-2005, 04:57 PM | #153 | ||||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
|
Quote:
Is that really so? Are the poor better off in the U.S. than they would be in Great Britain? How about the middle class? Either way, my point was never that the poor and middle class are WORSE off. I simply said they have a lot less to lose compared to the rich. Quote:
I didn't "ignore" that fact. My original post compares the benefits of the wealthy with the receipt of something like a welfare check. On balance, I argued the rich receive FAR more than the poor receiving a check directly. The difference is that the benefits to the rich aren't as commonly observed. And I'm not sure why you should only be taxed for things that are directly beneficial to you. That seems like a horrible way to set up a government/society. Quote:
First off, I would say that you can't have one without the other. From a pure self-interest standpoint, the rich cannot survive without the poor and middle class letting them get away with it. Now, I don't defend the idea that the rich are just buying off revolution. I think that is a bad way to approach government too. However, I'm not as naive to believe that the rich don't also benefit by appearring benevolent. More importantly, the safety nets make people play the game that make people rich. The American experiment works because everyone has something to aspire to. As it is now, class mobility is falling apart. Decreasing taxes on the rich will only exacerbate that trend. Compare these: Child A: In East St. Louis Inner city school (99% non-white) Violence constant Parents are drug addicts Struggles and graduates high school Child B: In Westchester, NY Goes to private pre-school in Manhattan (his classmates will almost all end up in Ivy League schools) - with all white kids Goes to private schools in elementary and high school levels Despite underperforming at all levels, admitted to Yale because of parent's legacy Who is going to succeed in our society 999 times out of 1000? Without mobility, the system fails. Right now, I think we are close to having too little mobility to make our form of government continue to work. We are probably fine, but it is something that concerns me. Quote:
I believe certain areas of our government are too large. I also believe bureacracies tend to grow and never shrink. I believe a lot of things should change. However, progressive taxation is not one of them, IMO.
__________________
I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude Last edited by John Galt : 11-07-2005 at 04:58 PM. |
||||
11-07-2005, 05:01 PM | #154 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New Mexico
|
Semantic clarification: Shifting the tax burden is a long way from an alternate political system. It's just a drift/shift in fiscal policy, which is constantly happening in minor ways.
|
11-07-2005, 05:25 PM | #155 |
College Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
|
John Galt - I'm not arguing against a progressive tax system. Nor am I arguing that people should only be taxed on what is beneficial to them. You seemed to be the one arguing this point, as your justification for a progressive tax system was based on the premise that the wealthy benefit more and therefore should pay more. In fact, I'm not arguing for or against any system of taxation. The government has to have revenue to function. Most, if not all, systems of taxation are going to be inherrently unfair to someone. So, I'm not really concerned with the 'fairness' of the tax system.
So, I was simply trying to make a point that while I agree that the wealthy benefit more from the protection of the government, using that as a justification for a progressive tax system does come in conflict with the government's current structure in certain areas. I wasn't necessarily calling for all social programs to be eliminated. There are many that are very valid and worthwhile. You seemed to be trying to spin my comments in that direction with your student A and B example, and that is not accurate.
__________________
Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz |
11-07-2005, 07:15 PM | #156 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
And, social programs allow the poor to be relatively healthy so that they may be used as a labor force for when times are good and more people are needed for jobs (like in the late 90s).
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 11-07-2005 at 07:18 PM. |
|
11-07-2005, 07:45 PM | #157 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
If taxes were to rise, what is it to stop a rich citizen to leave the country to a tax-friendly country (Switzerland, Monaco, ect.). They do this already in some ways, but could it happen?
|
11-07-2005, 07:53 PM | #158 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Well, nothing off-hand ... other than some of the practicalities. Although I'm a long way from being that level of "rich", I've looked into it a little bit on several occasions (usually after I go through the annual round of company & personal taxes).
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
11-07-2005, 08:54 PM | #159 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
|
Quote:
Ummm...I think it might be a safe argument that this has already happened. I don't think it is a coincidence that more and more people are removed from tax obligation every year. I think this is more political than economic, but there are some economic aspects as well. Politicians looking out for their own constituents as well as general political popularity tend to create programs that will benefit voters. If the poor and middle-class outnumber the wealthy, then it seems logical to expect politicians to cater to those voters. Look at Social Security. Mention eliminating it and seniors and baby boomers get in a tizzy. So, the politicians tip-toe around the issue to avoid losing votes. However, just about everyone knows it needs to be drastically changed for it to survive. It is also an example of how Social programs tend to continue to balloon. No one wants to willingly give up money, and more and more people will line up to feed at the government teat. Not saying that every program is like this, just that it is the tendency. Closing of military bases could even be tossed out there, as an example of how this applies to non-social programs. Communities come to depend on that government money to fuel their economy. So, when a decision is made to close a base or discontinue purchasing a plane manufactured in a particular area, those communities fight to keep that government money. They don't want less, they want more. Sorry for the ramble. This is one reason I feel that talks about economics, in this day and age, are intrinsically tied to politics. The government spends sooooo much money that our economy is heavily dependent on it. Severe cutbacks in rapid fashion would send us into an economic tailspin. I would greatly be in favor of long term pruning of government functions coupled with close supervision of new growth.
__________________
Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz |
|
11-07-2005, 09:45 PM | #160 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
Last edited by MrBigglesworth : 11-07-2005 at 10:01 PM. |
|
11-07-2005, 09:48 PM | #161 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
11-07-2005, 09:48 PM | #162 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
F'n A ... me & Biggles agreeing on something. Sonuvabitch, who woulda thunk it?
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
11-07-2005, 09:53 PM | #163 |
"Dutch"
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Tampa, FL
|
Social Security is currently an investment the worker makes towards his/her future. But in a couple of decades, it will be a subsidized welfare program.
|
11-07-2005, 10:00 PM | #164 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
11-07-2005, 10:47 PM | #165 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
|
Quote:
My argument was that reducing that amount of welfare could have disasterous effects politically, which is what you basically said (if I get your meaning plainly).
__________________
"A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams |
|
11-08-2005, 12:00 AM | #166 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
11-08-2005, 12:49 PM | #167 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
They would be taking the high personal tax dollars with them....Would lower the income revenues, and potential future jobs/revenues. |
|
11-08-2005, 12:52 PM | #168 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
What type of SS are we talking about? As for retirement, why do we have to rely on the government for our retirement? Wouldn't it be better to invest it ourselves (even a simple mutual fund, ect.)? |
|
11-08-2005, 02:20 PM | #169 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fresno, CA
|
Quote:
That is essentially what Bush's SS privatization revamp would have allowed for. Not exactly, but effectively. Too bad it was demonized by its opponents. Sometimes change is good. |
|
11-08-2005, 02:32 PM | #170 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: PA
|
Quote:
|
|
11-08-2005, 07:48 PM | #171 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
|
Quote:
I agree with that to a degree. I want it so I can invest ALL of my money. Let me keep it, and take care of my future. |
|
11-08-2005, 09:03 PM | #172 | |
Team Chaplain
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Just outside Des Moines, IA
|
Quote:
Okay, bunny trail coming up, but the phrase "I have little hope it ever would" just stuck in my mind. I believe in most countries, such a lack of hope is fully justified. I believe, however, that there is cause for hope in the U.S., as evidenced by the following story. Mind you, this story isn't an attempt to further the arguments made in this thread, but to address the issue of hope: Ten days after Pearl Harbor, a group of citizens in North Platte heard a rumor that their boys, part of the Nebraska National Guard Company D, would be coming through on a troop train on their way to the West Coast. Five hundred people showed up at the train depot with food, cigarettes, letters, and love to give the boys. When the train showed up, it was not the Nebraska National Guard Company D boys on board; it was the boys from the Kansas National Guard Company D. After a few awkward moments, someone handed a young man she’d never seen the gifts intended for her own son. Everyone else followed that lead, and there were hugs and prayers and love shared all around. It was a spontaneous act of genuine devotion that touched both the soldiers and the people who came to the depot that day. That alone would have been a beautiful illustration of the willingness to “sacrifice for one another.” But the story continues. A few days later, a 26-year-old woman named Rae Wilson wrote a letter to the editor of the local paper, recounting the profound experience they’d shared that night, then suggested that the town organize “a canteen” so they could do something similar for every troop train that came through. She volunteered to lead the effort in a voluntary role. What happened next seems impossible to our 21st century, jaded hearts. For the next four and a half years, the people of North Platte and the surrounding communities met every troop train that came through their town. Every day they prepared sandwiches, cookies, cold drinks, and hot coffee. They had baskets of magazines and books to give away to the soldiers, and snacks for the train. There were even birthday cakes for whoever’s special day it was. And they did this, some days, for as many as 8,000 soldiers and sailors. The statistics are staggering. By the time the last train was served on April 1, 1946, six million soldiers were served from the North Platte Canteen. Forty-five thousand volunteers served faithfully until the war was over and most of the troops had been transported home. This was all accomplished without any government funding. The volunteers were farm folks for the most part, and they gave what they had—meat, eggs, and milk. They grew the wheat to make bread. Most everything else was rationed. They’d save their gas coupons for the days that their team would drive to North Platte to serve. And they did without at home so they’d have enough sugar to bake cakes and cookies for the boys. Many of those who volunteered regularly had lost husbands and sons in the war, and for them, serving these troops was a tangible way to cope with their loss. Most of the troops had only ten minutes to sprint from the train, grab some food, maybe dance with a pretty girl, hear the appreciation of those present, and sprint back before the train left without them. But in that ten minutes, they got more than a meal. They received a dose of unconditional love that they remembered during the heat of battle, and decades after the war was over. Bob Greene, whose book Once Upon a Town, made the North Platte Canteen story known to the world, wrote that as he interviewed those few surviving soldiers who had experienced the canteen first hand, there was a universal reaction from these men now in their late seventies and eighties. They cried.
__________________
Winner of 6 FOFC Scribe Awards, including 3 Gold Scribes Founder of the ZFL, 2004 Golden Scribe Dynasty of the Year Now bringing The Des Moines Dragons back to life, and the joke's on YOU, NFL! I came to the Crossroad. I took it. And that has made all the difference. |
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|