So what did we accomplish by invading Iraq?

[AgPete]

First off, this is not an anti-war thread because I'm happy to see Iraqis celebrate in the streets over their freedom and the war went much better than anyone thought. Baghdad fell in two weeks and we only lost about a hundred soldiers (so far), and once again, our military proves that it's far superior to any developing country. There's still not much evidence that Hussein was a major power in anti-American terrorism but I'll still sleep easier knowing someone like him is out of power.

But, I was wondering, after all the casualties, money, etc., what did we gain?

- Will we find Saddam Hussein? We're still looking for Bin Laden.
- Did we find any weapons of mass destruction? Did we ever find anything worth a scare?
- Do Muslims around the world like us any better? I guess we found some new allies in Iraq, we'll see how much they cherish our invasion. The rest of the Muslim world still seems to hate us. I even saw how Iranian TV refused to air cheering Iraqis and that some Iraqi citizens chased an Al-Jazeera newscrew to the Kuwaiti border claiming they were Hussein supporters.
- Did we solve the Israel/Palestine crisis? No movement there.
- Did we even lower gas prices yet? I'm still paying $1.60-$1.70 a gallon.
- Will the Iraqi people last under a democracy? Iraq doesn't have a history of it. Will we accidentally create a new fundamentalist theocracy now that Saddam Hussein isn't there to maintain his secular dictatorship? How about the Kurds? Did we create more instability in the Middle East? Will we go through all of this only to find a new Saddam Hussein take over? There certainly are a lot of wanna-be tyrants in Iraq that were trained by the best of them.
- Does the rest of the world look at us any different? We alienated the international community and made the U.N. irrelevant. Was it worth it? Will the world ever support us again?
- Did we find the same type of terrorist infrastructure that we found in Afghanistan? Did we find proof that Hussein was waging a full-scale incognito terrorist war on America?

I think many of these questions will be answered by some of the documents we find and interrogations we put ex-Hussein men through. Some of these questions will only be answered with time I guess. I guess the one benefit we can automatically see is that we've helped oppressed people regain their freedom for at least the time being. When all is said and done, will this war have been worth it? Your thoughts?

[ice4277]

Originally posted by AgPete
Did we even lower gas prices yet? I'm still paying $1.60-$1.70 a gallon.

Yeah, cause, ya know, global rates on processed oil by-productschange greatly based on world events just a couple hours after they happen

[CAsterling]

Originally posted by AgPete
When all is said and done, will this war have been worth it? Your thoughts?

Simple answer - No.
No war is ever worth it, some are necessary, some produce good results, but are any of them ever worth the loss of life - No.

(prepares to duck from the incoming insults)

[AgPete]

Originally posted by ice4277
Yeah, cause, ya know, global rates on processed oil by-productschange greatly based on world events just a couple hours after they happen

Well, it wasn't really meant to be interpreted literally. It was a jab at the people that say this was a war for oil. But since you mention it, it is funny how gas prices did indeed rise over night. If prices don't drop pretty soon, things that make you go hmmmmm.

Why can't people just chill out and let time take it's course.

[Senator]

Time tells all. I am just thankful right now.

[Qwikshot]

Originally posted by CAsterling
Simple answer - No.
No war is ever worth it, some are necessary, some produce good results, but are any of them ever worth the loss of life - No.

(prepares to duck from the incoming insults)

There is nothing wrong with this idea, but it will never happen...

[mrskippy]

- Will we find Saddam Hussein? We're still looking for Bin Laden.

Well, we don't know yet if Saddam was killed. If he survived he is either in Tikrit or Syria. If he's in Tikrit, he's about to be had. If he's in Syria, it won't take Israel (which has a pretty state of the art monitoring system in Syria) long to be on his tail.

- Did we find any weapons of mass destruction? Did we ever find anything worth a scare?

We found vials in some locations. We found chemcial/bio weapons manuals.

Those drums and warheads still are being tested. Preliminary results were positive. If the lab results proove positive, than that's four weapons capable of reaching Israel and drums full of chemicals to make more.

CIA is on the ground now looking for Iraqi scientists.

We've yet to take all of Baghdad. Stuff still could be found.

Basically, there's still more searching to do. And much of that won't happen until the hostilities end.

My guess is stuff will be found.

- Do Muslims around the world like us any better? I guess we found some new allies in Iraq, we'll see how much they cherish our invasion. The rest of the Muslim world still seems to hate us. I even saw how Iranian TV refused to air cheering Iraqis and that some Iraqi citizens chased an Al-Jazeera newscrew to the Kuwaiti border claiming they were Hussein supporters.

I think it depends what Muslims you're talking about. Also it's important to note that not every Arab is Muslim. Not every Iraqi is Muslim.

Iran is on the edge. If Iraq remains secular, becomes a true democracy, and an ally of the West, Iran will have a lot to lose. They'll have an enemy at their doorstep and a powerful one at that.

As for Al-Jazeera. Listening to some Iraqi-American exiles today there is no love for the network. Some exiles believe Saddam may have even financed the network and used it as part of his propaganda machine.

The network looked good in the Arab world at first, but since airing the Bin Laden messages and than the POWs it has lost credibility.

Al-Jazeera also is playing it up as an invasion, not liberation. And I think there are people in Iraq today who feel they've been liberated.

- Did we solve the Israel/Palestine crisis? No movement there.

No. But that's a different crisis. However, Arafat could be considered very similar to Saddam. He was the self-appointed leader. He was unopposed in elections and got virtually 100 percent of the vote.

It doesn't help that the Palestinians were backed by Iraq and that a PLO training camp was found in Iraq.

- Did we even lower gas prices yet? I'm still paying $1.60-$1.70 a gallon.

Gas prices have dropped every so slightly. They typically go down much slower than they go up. Months going down, weeks going up.

They'll drop further. Once the Iraqi oil starts flowing, things might quickly change. The land is so oil rich that OPEC, Russia and others may end up with high reserves.

- Will the Iraqi people last under a democracy? Iraq doesn't have a history of it. Will we accidentally create a new fundamentalist theocracy now that Saddam Hussein isn't there to maintain his secular dictatorship? How about the Kurds? Did we create more instability in the Middle East? Will we go through all of this only to find a new Saddam Hussein take over? There certainly are a lot of wanna-be tyrants in Iraq that were trained by the best of them.

Time will tell if democracy can last in Iraq. But Turkey is a good example of where it's worked. I think a key will be the Iraqi-American exiles, working to teach the people how life can be.

The key will be making sure a tyrant will not be able to take power. And definately making sure a theocracy doesn't take shape. We don't need another Iran.

The Kurds will either be part of a united, democratic Iraq. Or the Kurds get an independent state. Hopefully they can be part of a united Iraq and have a good role in the government. They are favorable to the West.

As for wannabe tyrants. That's why the war still goes on. The Baath party is being eliminated as an entity. Any Saddam loyalists are being dealt with.

And any tyrant knows what they would be facing.

- Does the rest of the world look at us any different? We alienated the international community and made the U.N. irrelevant. Was it worth it? Will the world ever support us again?
- Did we find the same type of terrorist infrastructure that we found in Afghanistan? Did we find proof that Hussein was waging a full-scale incognito terrorist war on America?

The rest of the world still will see us as they always have. Who cares?

The UN would have become irrelevant had Saddam remained in power and used WMD. And it's relevancy will come into question again if WMD is found.

If we prove Saddam has WMD though, the world will have no choice but to give us respect.

We've already found ominous terrorist camps, including ones which were Al Quida linked. We also found PLO camps. No doubt Saddam knew about them, approved them, and supported them.

[sachmo71]

Well, it's not over yet.

[SackAttack]

I think that may be one reason why the UN is pushing so hard to marginalize US/British influence in any reconstruction. The smaller the UN role, the lesser their relevancy to the endgame at all.

Coulda been avoided if they'd had the guts to make the tough choices over the last dozen years, but...

Bottom line, I think you have an organization as a whole that realizes its irrelevancy and wants to at least restore some of the luster, even if through smoke and mirrors, as well as several large member states who shall remain unnamed who want to cash in on the new situation. Seems odd that countries who cried "War for oil!" are quick to get in line with their hands out, yet at the same time demand that those who made the sacrifice have no say in how things play out.

Just my two cents, shrug.

Josh

[Ksyrup]

Originally posted by AgPete
Well, it wasn't really meant to be interpreted literally. It was a jab at the people that say this was a war for oil. But since you mention it, it is funny how gas prices did indeed rise over night. If prices don't drop pretty soon, things that make you go hmmmmm.

I've been reading articles about how prices have dropped since the war began. I personally haven't seen it, though...

[dawgfan]

Excellent post AgPete - these questions are ones that I feel are very important in judging this war. My own feelings are that many of these questions will not be answered in a wholly satisfactory manner, hence my opposition to the war.

1.) Will we find Hussein?
I'm not sure this is necessary to declare the war a success. So long as he's out of power in Iraq he becomes purely symbolic. A symbol that carries some influence no doubt, but mainly irrelevant.

2.) Did we find WMD?
Not so far. It won't surprise me greatly if we find chemical weapons, but I don't know that it's a slam-dunk either.

3.) Do Muslims like us any better?
Doubtful - many I suspect will look at this action as not just imperialism but a religious crusade against Islam (despite the fact that Iraq is relatively secular). No doubt there are Muslims in Iraq who are greatful toward the U.S. for toppling Saddam, but on the whole I doubt most Muslims outside the U.S. look at this action in a positive light.

4.) Did we solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?
It is encouraging to see Bush and Blair discussing ways to resolve this situation, but talk is cheap. If we really want to address one of the, if not the root cause of strife in the middle east we need to get some resolution to this mess. Let's see if Bush is as decisive in this peace process as he was in going in to Iraq.

5.) Did we lower gas prices yet?
I suspect we'll see lower prices shortly now that the conflict is essentially over.

6.) Will the Iraqi people last under a democracy?
Great question, and hard to answer. The country has no history of democracy and has some rather large ethnic, religious and cultural differences to bridge. Will Iraq work as the borders are currently drawn, or will a seperate state for the Kurds need to be created? And if so, how will that affect Turkey which has its' own sordid history of mistreatment of their Kurds, and how would it affect our friendship with Turkey?

I worry a great deal that a post-Saddam Iraq will be vulnerable to a fundamentalist takeover similar to what happened in Iran. The U.N. will have to walk a fine line in encouraging an open and democratic society while not being seen as governing from afar by the Iraqi people. The U.S. will also need to be careful to not repeat past mistakes of propping up questionable leaders merely because they follow U.S. objectives.

7.) Does the rest of the world look at us any different? Was it worth potentially alienating the rest of the world and rendering the U.N. irrelevant?
The rest of the world does view us in a new light now. This administration has been very willing to act in essentially a unilateral fashion, which is a remarkable break from the past. Many around the world view the U.S. less as a benign force for good and more as the proverbial 800-lb gorilla that worries them.

As powerful and as influential as this country is, I don't think it's a wise course to piss-off the rest of the international community. I'm not saying we should just acquiese to whatever the U.N. decides is the best policy, but maintaining friendly relations and strong allies is preferable course of action to bullying and going it alone.

The U.N. has done a pretty good job of rendering itself irrelevant recently. It's hard to take seriously a body that allows Libya to chair its Human Rights Commission. With that said, I still think the idea of the U.N. is a good one, but the structure of it may need to change. Obviously the makeup of the security council is an issue given that much of it is rooted in the immediate post WWII world and tilted toward the composition of the Allies.

I think the U.S. needed to do a better job of selling its justification for invading Iraq to the U.N. and especially our european allies so that a broader coalition could've been assembled to diffuse world criticism of the war.

Will the world ever support us again? Sure they will - there will undoubtably be situations where our position closely mirrors world opinion and we can find more support. Our role in the world is definitely changing though, and I suspect many in the international community are very uncomfortable with the willingness of the U.S. to flex its muscles in spite of world opinion.

8.) Did we find proof of Saddam supporting a terrorist network in Iraq?
I don't think we have so far, or if we have we haven't revealed the evidence. I wouldn't be greatly surprised if we discovered an effort by Saddam to sponsor terrorism against the U.S. and its interests, though I sincerely doubt we'll ever find any more than trivial connections to Al Qaeda or other extremist Islamic terrorist networks - I suspect any such effort by Saddam would've been independent of these other groups, if any such effort in fact existed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Just a couple of comments from around the thread ...

1) Gas prices around me are down roughly .10 - .15 / gallon over the past couple of weeks. Why is open to a number of interpretations.

2) mrskippy provided one of the most accurate comments I've seen during the whole situation --

The rest of the world still will see us as they always have. Who cares?

Bravo.

[dawgfan]

Gee, you're right Jon - screw the rest of the world. There's not a chance in the world that we might be wrong in our opinions, and who needs friends and allies?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Read it however the hell makes you feel better dawgfan, but at least bother to get the last bit right. It's not about not needing friends & allies, it's about needing to know who those really are or aren't.

[sabotai]

"Yeah, cause, ya know, global rates on processed oil by-productschange greatly based on world events just a couple hours after they happen "

FYI, During the first week of the first Gulf War, gas prices dropped dramatically.

[JPhillips]

As I said in another thread we won't know what we have gotten until at least the first election and more likely the second. It will be at least five years until we have any idea of whether this was worth it for the US or not. (I don't have any doubt that it will be better for most Iraqis) More realistically we wil still be feeling the repurcussions of this both good and bad for decades. Remember, no one saw Bin Laden on the horizon when we were arming and training the Afghan resistance.

[dawgfan]

Originally posted by JonInMiddleGA
Read it however the hell makes you feel better dawgfan, but at least bother to get the last bit right. It's not about not needing friends & allies, it's about needing to know who those really are or aren't.

Your original post implied agreement with the attitude of who cares what the rest of the world thinks.

Your current post implies that the U.S. is right no matter what and that only countries that agree with us are ones to be valued.

Tell me, does this carry through in your personal life as well? Only those friends that always agree with you are your real friends? Is there never a possibility that you're wrong, and a true friend is the one willing to stand up to you and tell you you're wrong?

If I'm reading your implications correctly then it certainly doesn't make me feel any better - it makes me cringe.

[Bee]

Originally posted by mrskippy


Time will tell if democracy can last in Iraq. But Turkey is a good example of where it's worked.

Turkey is a good example of where democracy works?

[The Afoci]

How bad is world opinion of us really? I thought I saw a list of the nations with us that was about 70 or 80 nations long. I would say that is pretty good support.

[Anrhydeddu]

The main short-term advantage I see is the huge cache of weapons of all kinds are now out of the hands of the bad guys. Imagine if they had time to use even a fraction of those? That was what was brilliant about this strategy - getting on top of them so quickly that they did not have time to organize an effective defense using many of those weapons.

[Bee]

Originally posted by The Afoci
How bad is world opinion of us really? I thought I saw a list of the nations with us that was about 70 or 80 nations long. I would say that is pretty good support.

I've never seen a list that long, but some of the ones I've seen had some pretty interesting names on them. Some of the nations I had never even heard of and I'm not that far out of the loop on international politics.

The other thing to keep in mind, just because a nation is part of the coalition of the willing doesn't mean their population views us in a positive light (The opposite is also true in a few cases IMO).

[Ksyrup]

Well, for one thing, we forced this guy to change his name:


Sucks to be him.

[TroyF]

dawgfan,

I think the biggest mistake of this war was going to the UN in the first place. If the UN, the French and others think that Saddam is GOOD for the world, then they don't represent my view.

I care what other countries think, but when they take a position that a majority of Americans disagree with, what do you suggest we do?

We tried to do this the right way for 12 years. The UN wanted to wait another 12. I'm sorry, at that point we had every right to say that we are the #1 power and we are going to do what is in our best interest.

The same nations who are against us also took part in some horrific things throughout their history. We've not only forgiven them, but given them millions of US dollars. They can get over the action which was taken in Iraq. If they can't, they are against us.

TroyF

[Kodos]

I'd say freeing millions of people from a sadistic tyrant is good enough for me. Now if we could just save the Bengals fans...

[AgPete]

Originally posted by Kodos
I'd say freeing millions of people from a sadistic tyrant is good enough for me. Now if we could just save the Bengals fans...

Whoah! Easy there! We're the most powerful country in the world but we're not miracle workers!

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by Kodos
I'd say freeing millions of people from a sadistic tyrant is good enough for me. Now if we could just save the Bengals fans...

You'd think it wouldn't be hard to save 1 person

[Fritz]

my net worth has gone up about 11% in 3 weeks. A little more war would greatly help my portfolio.

[dawgfan]

Troy, I respect your views, but I disagree with how you've interpreted certain things:

Originally posted by TroyF
dawgfan,

I think the biggest mistake of this war was going to the UN in the first place. If the UN, the French and others think that Saddam is GOOD for the world, then they don't represent my view.

Opposing war with Iraq does not equal the postition that Saddam is good for the world. It meant that at that time, those countries did not support an invasion as a solution.

Yes, France declared that they would never be in favor of invasion, but that was hyperbole. Had the UN inspectors found damning evidence against Saddam then France would've come around.

Originally posted by TroyF
I care what other countries think, but when they take a position that a majority of Americans disagree with, what do you suggest we do?

Good question. I'll pose this to you - outside perspective is often necessary to gain clearer understanding of a situation. I think that too often the attitude in this country is that we're never wrong, and the fact that we are the most powerful country means we should ignore world opinion when it's convenient to do so.

Originally posted by TroyF
We tried to do this the right way for 12 years. The UN wanted to wait another 12. I'm sorry, at that point we had every right to say that we are the #1 power and we are going to do what is in our best interest.

Well, certainly no one was going to stop us once we made up our mind.

I question the assumption that the UN wanted to wait another 12 years. We'd only allowed inspections to resume for what, less than a year before deciding to act? We could've put more pressure on the UN to install a more aggressive inspection team than one led by Blix. I don't believe that the U.S. ever made a concerted effort to make this round of inspections work - this administration had already made its mind up that invasion was necessary, and played along with the UN and inspections for as long as it thought was politically necessary to gain support for military action.

Originally posted by TroyF
The same nations who are against us also took part in some horrific things throughout their history. We've not only forgiven them, but given them millions of US dollars. They can get over the action which was taken in Iraq. If they can't, they are against us.

I'm not sure exactly which nations you're referring to, but as an example let's take Russia. Under Soviet control, that country engaged in a number of horrific actions that the U.S. was strongly opposed to. With the fall of the communist regime and the return to a more western and capitolistic society we've enjoyed markedly improved relations with Russia. We've moved on from the old cold-war animosities. Why? Because the situation in Russia changed - they rid themselves of a constrictive, oppressive government and in the process lost some of their military might and influence throughout the world.

The U.S. on the other hand remains the world's leading power, and has begun a new policy of pre-emptive action that frightens many of our old allies and others. Those who are opposed to the Iraqi invasion are concerned that a new era has dawned where the U.S. is viewed in a less benign and positive light and more of an aggressive bully with little to stand in their way.

Edit: spelling

[Bonegavel]

The recent short-term drop in oil is because OPEC nations have produced more oil in anticipation of the war and has nothing to do with Iraqi oil.

Those who think war is never "worth it" doesn't live in the same world that I inhabit.

Not to diminish the loss of our Men and Women in the military, but more people die in this country everyday from car accidents. I don't buy the argument from people that they oppose war simply because of the deaths that result. Do these same people protest everyone that gets in a car because almost 40,000 americans die on the road every year! No they don't. You could save a lot of lives by stopping everyone from driving.

Every casualty is a tremendous loss and I can't tell you how many nights I've sat in front of the t.v. and wept from the loss of life. I think of all the parents who are losing their children. I think of all the wives losing husbands. Brothers losing sisters. ad nasuem. It is tragic.

But, more tragic are the facts coming out of what was really happening in Iraq. In the time that Bush waited for the UN to get off their collective asses, how many Iraqi's perished? And there wasn't a single JDAM dropping from the sky.

What does the rest of the world think of us? I'll guarantee you that the Arab world is taking notice. That isn't a cocky statement. They respond to power and if this wasn't a show of what we can do, then they are blind (or watching al-jazeera). Also, this sends the message that when we say something, we mean it.

When I hear somebody worried about, "what does the world think" I can't possibly imagine why you care? Like it or not, we are the world's superpower. The only people I hear wondering about world opinion are the same who hate Bush (there may be exceptions, but I haven't found one). It is simply another excuse not to do the right thing.