OT:OOTP5 Question/Rant

CamEdwards · 04-08-2003, 07:12 PM

I really am enjoying this game, but keep turning it off in frustration because of one thing: it feels like the game is cheating.

I always play as the Boston Red Sox. Right now I'm using the default rosters, and as has been the case with every dynasty I start, every player on my team is hitting 50 points or more his career average once he starts playing for the Sox. Even the players already on the team at the beginning of the game are down dramatically.

Has this happened to anybody else? It's not as if averages and power are down across the league, just my team. I'm talking guys that hit .330, 45 HR, 115 RBI coming to the Red Sox and hitting .253, 21 HR, 89 RBI.

Quite frankly it's pissing me off.

/end rant

vtbub · 04-08-2003, 07:23 PM

The stats aren't as important as ratings.

If your .330-45-115 guy is a 9 avg 11 hr guy and is a .253-21-89 guy your gripe is legit, if he a 5-5 guy then the sucky numbers are right.

Glad you play the Sox.

04-08-2003, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vtbub
The stats aren't as important as ratings.

I understand your point but this could be an ugly statement for a sim based off of stats.

Draft Dodger · 04-08-2003, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by couriers
I understand your point but this could be an ugly statement for a sim based off of stats.

it is not a sim based off of stats; it's a sim based on ratings.

NoMyths · 04-08-2003, 07:43 PM

Cam: Are you using the game-start parks? If so, that can explain part of the problem...Boston's park may be lowering your stats.

NoMyths · 04-08-2003, 07:44 PM

dola...

The inverse of this, of course, is that certain parks -- Colorado's, for example -- inflate stats, which take numbers away from your guys (based on OOTP's normalization of league totals).

astralhaze · 04-08-2003, 07:44 PM

Almost every sports sim is based off of ratings. The sims which are not, like Diamond Mind, are meant to be replays.

04-08-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Draft Dodger
it is not a sim based off of stats; it's a sim based on ratings.

Point taken. However besides the ratings being more important to the engine are they what you personally care most about or wouldn't having the stats be more important be better? Just curious. I know that when I play a sports sim I care more about my player’s stats in the long run.

EDIT: What I originally meant by based off of stats was that when you follow real life athletes you pay more attention to their stats rather than how they are rated.

Chief Rum · 04-08-2003, 07:51 PM

Cam, I haven't seen this yet in OOTP5. In fact, specifically with Boston, in my Angels dynasty (feel free to check it out--shameless plug...

), the Red Sox are the best offensive team in the league right now. I can't tell you how their numbers compare to ratings, though, since I'm on the Talent Only setting (the setting for real men

).

That said, your complaint finds a very sympathetic ear from me with regards to the OOTP series in general. In both of my online leagues, the JBL and the RWBL, I have experienced mystifying drops in stats, both in offense and in pitching, for both of my teams. It is utterly frustrating and I have no explanation for it. We have been using OOTP4 for these leagues so afr, so I can't tell you if this is going to continue in the future. I certainly hope it will not, but since I can't seem to find a logical reason for the problems, other than dumb luck (which gets less and less likely with the passing of the year--five seasons each now in both of my online leagues), I couldn't even begin to fathom why it's happening. It's enough to make you just want to quit the game altogether, I know that.

Chief Rum

JonInMiddleGA · 04-08-2003, 08:06 PM

Cam, if the effect you're talking about is more pronounced with acquired players rather than "original" players, here's something to consider -- Previous versions of OOTP seemed to have a tendency for players stats to swing considerably if they were in one role vs another. For example, a guy hitting 3rd for Tampa might find himself hitting 6th in Atlanta and experience dramatic stat reduction.

CamEdwards · 04-08-2003, 08:08 PM

Here's an example: Brandon Haws (default roster equivalent to Nomar Garciaparra)

1996 .241
1997 .306
1998 .323
1999 .357
2000 .372
2001 .289
2002 .310
2003 .329
2004 .245
2005 .277
2006 .258

I guess what I'm worried about is what Chief Rum noted. Right now my team hitting is .241, 29th in the league. My lowest rated hitter for average is a 5. I have a 7 rated hitter in contact hitting .238, a 6 rated hitter in contact hitting .193, and a 11 rated hitter in home runs with 22 in his last full season.

That just seems wrong to me.

Draft Dodger · 04-08-2003, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by couriers
Point taken. However besides the ratings being more important to the engine are they what you personally care most about or wouldn't having the stats be more important be better? Just curious. I know that when I play a sports sim I care more about my player’s stats in the long run.

EDIT: What I originally meant by based off of stats was that when you follow real life athletes you pay more attention to their stats rather than how they are rated.

I'm not defending the fact that the game is based on ratings, just pointing it out.

personally, I would STRONGLY like to see a baseball game that had no ratings. OOTP is not that game - it's a good game, but it's not that.

04-08-2003, 08:13 PM

I was just curious if I was too far off base or not. Thanks.

vtbub · 04-08-2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Here's an example: Brandon Haws (default roster equivalent to Nomar Garciaparra)

1996 .241
1997 .306
1998 .323
1999 .357
2000 .372
2001 .289
2002 .310
2003 .329
2004 .245
2005 .277
2006 .258

I guess what I'm worried about is what Chief Rum noted. Right now my team hitting is .241, 29th in the league. My lowest rated hitter for average is a 5. I have a 7 rated hitter in contact hitting .238, a 6 rated hitter in contact hitting .193, and a 11 rated hitter in home runs with 22 in his last full season.

That just seems wrong to me.

Make sure your league stats are adjusted, that makes a huge difference.

astralhaze · 04-08-2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by couriers
Point taken. However besides the ratings being more important to the engine are they what you personally care most about or wouldn't having the stats be more important be better? Just curious. I know that when I play a sports sim I care more about my player’s stats in the long run.

The problem is to make a game with random variation in player performance based off of stats rather than ratings would be almost impossible. I don't find this to be too much of a problem with OOTP because I play with talent only ratings (which are given by the scouts who can be wrong of course). This gives me a guideline in scouting who to acquire and keep, but performance ie stats is always the number one tool in player evaluation. In this respect, it mirrors real life quite well I think. Even the most die hard stat freaks like Theo Epstein or Billy Beane will tell you that they still value the opinion of their scouts in order to a fuller picture of player performance.

04-08-2003, 08:37 PM

I am not arguing against ratings I am just saying that in general the stats are more important in sports than ratings are.

astralhaze · 04-08-2003, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by couriers
I am not arguing against ratings I am just saying that in general the stats are more important in sports than ratings are.

I know, I wasn't meaning to argue with you, just kind of thinking out loud based off your post

Chief Rum · 04-08-2003, 08:44 PM

couriers, stats are more important in perceiving performance, and stats are the most used and objective of way of determining actual ability. But actual ability isn't directly quantified by stats. It is its own entity, a mere part in a number of factors that result in the stats.

I don't think a game could be developed and be accurate and realistic that did not in some form try to quantify a player's natural ability. In real life, I believe that a player has a finite amount of ability as well. The difference is we don't have too many objective ways to measure it outside of stats.

This is why I play Talent Only. So I can only rely on stats and the couts opinion of their talents and development. This is how it is in real life.

But the ratings still exist. I just can't see them.

Chief Rum

korme · 04-08-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Here's an example: Brandon Haws (default roster equivalent to Nomar Garciaparra)

1996 .241
1997 .306
1998 .323
1999 .357
2000 .372
2001 .289
2002 .310
2003 .329
2004 .245
2005 .277
2006 .258

I guess what I'm worried about is what Chief Rum noted. Right now my team hitting is .241, 29th in the league. My lowest rated hitter for average is a 5. I have a 7 rated hitter in contact hitting .238, a 6 rated hitter in contact hitting .193, and a 11 rated hitter in home runs with 22 in his last full season.

That just seems wrong to me.

Cam..... what is your scout's ratings?

04-08-2003, 09:25 PM

Astralhaze, believe it or not I really did mean, “argue” in a good way.

Chief Rum, I know exactly where you are coming from I was just trying to make a basic statement about sports sims in general despite knowing how important rating really are. To be completely honest I personal like to cheat a bit in these type of sims by keeping the rating on. I tend to take the movie, music, and book approach of using ratings over stats. With those forms of media the ratings are much more important to the average Joe Blow than the stats of items like gross sales and such. Hope that makes sense.

korme · 04-08-2003, 09:28 PM

Also, this stuff just happens... fluke bad year.. fluke good year.

Currently, Ruben Mateo, filling in for injured outfielders, in 135 at bats is hitting .414 with a 1.167 OPS. I expect both to drop, but still, he's going to end with a great season for 5/4/4 ratings.

On the other hand, Adam Dunn, who has had 78 at bats before getting injured, at 5/7/10, is hitting .214, 1 homerun, .713 OPS..

It happens. In your case, dramatically. But I'd cite poor scouting for your problems.

CamEdwards · 04-08-2003, 09:31 PM

Shorty, my scout is rated Legendary/Legendary. And this is happening with every player that's on my roster, even the guys that were there in 2003. 2003, great year. 2004, start to slide. 2005, horrible.

What's really funny is I'll trade these guys and for their next team they'll jump back up to hitting .320 with 25 HR or so.

Maybe it's the park, I dunno. But it's still frustrating... and I didn't notice the problem to be this bad in v4.

Celeval · 04-08-2003, 09:57 PM

How's your hitting coach, Cam?

FBPro · 04-08-2003, 11:04 PM

IMO, this type of thing makes the game more LRL. Guys have off years a .300 hitter will bat .263 every now and then(for the most part). Or the .247 hitter will break out and hit .300 for a season. I like this part of the game and have not noticed it being extreme in this area.

NoMyths · 04-08-2003, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Shorty, my scout is rated Legendary/Legendary. And this is happening with every player that's on my roster, even the guys that were there in 2003. 2003, great year. 2004, start to slide. 2005, horrible.

What's really funny is I'll trade these guys and for their next team they'll jump back up to hitting .320 with 25 HR or so.

Maybe it's the park, I dunno. But it's still frustrating... and I didn't notice the problem to be this bad in v4.

Very simple way to test. Make an average (100's all around) park and make it every team's home park. If the stats start looking realistic, it's your park.

NoMyths · 04-08-2003, 11:20 PM

dola...

And, uh, there's always the "build more offense into my home park" thing to balance it out. Crank your settings up and you'll get your stats.

04-08-2003, 07:23 PM	#2
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	The stats aren't as important as ratings. If your .330-45-115 guy is a 9 avg 11 hr guy and is a .253-21-89 guy your gripe is legit, if he a 5-5 guy then the sucky numbers are right. Glad you play the Sox. __________________

04-08-2003, 07:44 PM	#7
astralhaze College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2002	Almost every sports sim is based off of ratings. The sims which are not, like Diamond Mind, are meant to be replays. __________________ I can understand Brutus at every meaning, but that parahraphy threw me for a loop.

04-08-2003, 07:51 PM	#9
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Cam, I haven't seen this yet in OOTP5. In fact, specifically with Boston, in my Angels dynasty (feel free to check it out--shameless plug... ), the Red Sox are the best offensive team in the league right now. I can't tell you how their numbers compare to ratings, though, since I'm on the Talent Only setting (the setting for real men ). That said, your complaint finds a very sympathetic ear from me with regards to the OOTP series in general. In both of my online leagues, the JBL and the RWBL, I have experienced mystifying drops in stats, both in offense and in pitching, for both of my teams. It is utterly frustrating and I have no explanation for it. We have been using OOTP4 for these leagues so afr, so I can't tell you if this is going to continue in the future. I certainly hope it will not, but since I can't seem to find a logical reason for the problems, other than dumb luck (which gets less and less likely with the passing of the year--five seasons each now in both of my online leagues), I couldn't even begin to fathom why it's happening. It's enough to make you just want to quit the game altogether, I know that. Chief Rum __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

04-08-2003, 08:06 PM	#10
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Cam, if the effect you're talking about is more pronounced with acquired players rather than "original" players, here's something to consider -- Previous versions of OOTP seemed to have a tendency for players stats to swing considerably if they were in one role vs another. For example, a guy hitting 3rd for Tampa might find himself hitting 6th in Atlanta and experience dramatic stat reduction. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

04-08-2003, 08:08 PM	#11
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	Here's an example: Brandon Haws (default roster equivalent to Nomar Garciaparra) 1996 .241 1997 .306 1998 .323 1999 .357 2000 .372 2001 .289 2002 .310 2003 .329 2004 .245 2005 .277 2006 .258 I guess what I'm worried about is what Chief Rum noted. Right now my team hitting is .241, 29th in the league. My lowest rated hitter for average is a 5. I have a 7 rated hitter in contact hitting .238, a 6 rated hitter in contact hitting .193, and a 11 rated hitter in home runs with 22 in his last full season. That just seems wrong to me. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

04-08-2003, 07:43 PM	#5
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	Cam: Are you using the game-start parks? If so, that can explain part of the problem...Boston's park may be lowering your stats.

04-08-2003, 08:13 PM	#13
couriers	I was just curious if I was too far off base or not. Thanks.

04-08-2003, 08:37 PM	#16
couriers	I am not arguing against ratings I am just saying that in general the stats are more important in sports than ratings are.

04-08-2003, 08:44 PM	#18
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	couriers, stats are more important in perceiving performance, and stats are the most used and objective of way of determining actual ability. But actual ability isn't directly quantified by stats. It is its own entity, a mere part in a number of factors that result in the stats. I don't think a game could be developed and be accurate and realistic that did not in some form try to quantify a player's natural ability. In real life, I believe that a player has a finite amount of ability as well. The difference is we don't have too many objective ways to measure it outside of stats. This is why I play Talent Only. So I can only rely on stats and the couts opinion of their talents and development. This is how it is in real life. But the ratings still exist. I just can't see them. Chief Rum __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

04-08-2003, 09:25 PM	#20
couriers	Astralhaze, believe it or not I really did mean, “argue” in a good way. Chief Rum, I know exactly where you are coming from I was just trying to make a basic statement about sports sims in general despite knowing how important rating really are. To be completely honest I personal like to cheat a bit in these type of sims by keeping the rating on. I tend to take the movie, music, and book approach of using ratings over stats. With those forms of media the ratings are much more important to the average Joe Blow than the stats of items like gross sales and such. Hope that makes sense.

04-08-2003, 09:28 PM	#21
korme Go Reds Join Date: May 2001 Location: Bloodbuzz Ohio	Also, this stuff just happens... fluke bad year.. fluke good year. Currently, Ruben Mateo, filling in for injured outfielders, in 135 at bats is hitting .414 with a 1.167 OPS. I expect both to drop, but still, he's going to end with a great season for 5/4/4 ratings. On the other hand, Adam Dunn, who has had 78 at bats before getting injured, at 5/7/10, is hitting .214, 1 homerun, .713 OPS.. It happens. In your case, dramatically. But I'd cite poor scouting for your problems.

04-08-2003, 09:31 PM	#22
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	Shorty, my scout is rated Legendary/Legendary. And this is happening with every player that's on my roster, even the guys that were there in 2003. 2003, great year. 2004, start to slide. 2005, horrible. What's really funny is I'll trade these guys and for their next team they'll jump back up to hitting .320 with 25 HR or so. Maybe it's the park, I dunno. But it's still frustrating... and I didn't notice the problem to be this bad in v4. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

04-08-2003, 09:57 PM	#23
Celeval Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Cary, NC, USA	How's your hitting coach, Cam?

04-08-2003, 11:04 PM	#24
FBPro College Starter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: SE	IMO, this type of thing makes the game more LRL. Guys have off years a .300 hitter will bat .263 every now and then(for the most part). Or the .247 hitter will break out and hit .300 for a season. I like this part of the game and have not noticed it being extreme in this area. __________________ GM RayCo Raiders-est. 2004-2012 Charter member of the IHOF-RayCo GM GM Tennessee Titans PFL 2011-2014 GM Tennessee Titans FOWL 2020-2025

04-08-2003, 11:20 PM	#26
NoMyths Poet in Residence Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Charleston, SC	dola... And, uh, there's always the "build more offense into my home park" thing to balance it out. Crank your settings up and you'll get your stats.

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