Seems "lawless New Orleans" wasn't so lawless

[HomerJSimpson]

Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated

Widely reported attacks false or unsubstantiated

6 bodies found at Dome; 4 at Convention Center


By Brian Thevenot
and Gordon Russell
Staff writers


After five days managing near-riots, medical horrors and unspeakable living conditions inside the Superdome, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron prepared to hand over the dead to representatives of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.


Following days of internationally reported killings, rapes and gang violence inside the Dome, the doctor from FEMA - Beron doesn't remember his name - came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.

"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalls the doctor saying.

The real total was six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the turning over of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice. State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been killed inside.

At the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, just four bodies were recovered, despites reports of corpses piled inside the building. Only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, said health and law enforcement officials.

That the nation's front-line emergency management believed the body count would resemble that of a bloody battle in a war is but one of scores of examples of myths about the Dome and the Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans' top officials, including the mayor and police superintendent. As the fog of warlike conditions in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath has cleared, the vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.

"I think 99 percent of it is bulls---," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong, bad things happened, but I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything. ... Ninety-nine percent of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."

Dr. Louis Cataldie, the state Health and Human Services Department administrator overseeing the body recovery operation, said his teams were inundated with false reports about the Dome and Convention Center.

"We swept both buildings several times, because we kept getting reports of more bodies there," Cataldie said. "But it just wasn't the case."

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities had confirmed only four murders in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina - making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year. Jordan expressed outrage at reports from many national media outlets that suffering flood victims had turned into mobs of unchecked savages.

"I had the impression that at least 40 or 50 murders had occurred at the two sites," he said. "It's unfortunate we saw these kinds of stories saying crime had taken place on a massive scale when that wasn't the case. And they (national media outlets) have done nothing to follow up on any of these cases, they just accepted what people (on the street) told them. ... It's not consistent with the highest standards of journalism."

As floodwaters forced tens of thousands of evacuees into the Dome and Convention Center, news of unspeakable acts poured out of the nation's media: evacuees firing at helicopters trying to save them; women, children and even babies raped with abandon; people killed for food and water; a 7-year-old raped and killed at the Convention Center. Police, according to their chief, Eddie Compass, found themselves in multiple shootouts inside both shelters, and were forced to race toward muzzle flashes through the dark to disarm the criminals; snipers supposedly fired at doctors and soldiers from downtown high-rises.

In interviews with Oprah Winfrey, Compass reported rapes of "babies," and Mayor Ray Nagin spoke of "hundreds of armed gang members" killing and raping people inside the Dome. Unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies, "we couldn't count."

The picture that emerged was one of the impoverished, masses of flood victims resorting to utter depravity, randomly attacking each other, as well as the police trying to protect them and the rescue workers trying to save them. Nagin told Winfrey the crowd has descended to an "almost animalistic state."

Four weeks after the storm, few of the widely reported atrocities have been backed with evidence. The piles of bodies never materialized, and soldiers, police officers and rescue personnel on the front lines say that although anarchy reigned at times and people suffered unimaginable indignities, most of the worst crimes reported at the time never happened.

Military, law enforcement and medical workers agree that the flood of evacuees - about 30,000 at the Dome and an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 at the Convention Center - overwhelmed their security personnel. The 400 to 500 soldiers in the Dome could have been easily overrun by increasingly agitated crowds, but that never happened, said Col. James Knotts, a midlevel commander there. Security was nonexistent at the Convention Center, which was never designated as a shelter. Authorities provided no food, water or medical care until troops secured the building the Friday after the storm.

While the Convention Center saw plenty of mischief, including massive looting and isolated gunfire, and many inside cowered in fear, the hordes of evacuees for the most part did not resort to violence, as legend has it.

"Everything was embellished, everything was exaggerated," said Deputy Police Superintendent Warren Riley. "If one guy said he saw six bodies, then another guy the same six, and another guy saw them - then that became 18."


Soldier shot - by himself


Inside the Dome, where National Guardsmen performed rigorous security checks before allowing anyone inside, only one shooting has been verified. Even that incident, in which Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt of the 527th Engineer Battalion was injured, has been widely misreported, said Maj. David Baldwin, who led the team of soldiers who arrested a suspect.

Watt was attacked inside one of the Dome's locker rooms, which he entered with another soldier. In the darkness, as he walked through about six inches of water, Watt was attacked with a metal rod, a piece of a cot. But the bullet that penetrated Watt's leg came from his own gun - he accidentally shot himself in the commotion. The attacker never took his gun from him, Baldwin said. New Orleans police investigated the matter fully and sent the suspect to jail in Breaux Bridge, Baldwin said.

As for other shootings, Baldwin said, "We actively patrolled 24 hours a day, and nobody heard another shot."

Doug Thornton, regional vice president of SMG, which manages the Dome, walked the complex from before the storm until the final evacuation and kept a meticulous journal. In a Sept. 9 interview, he said he heard reports of rapes and killings, but they were unconfirmed and came from evacuees and security officials.

"We walked through the facility every day, and we didn't see all this that was being reported," said Thornton, one of about 35 Dome employees who rode out Katrina in the building and lived there in the days after the storm hit. "We never felt threatened. It's hard to determine what's real and what's not real."


No victims


Inside the Convention Center, the rumors of widespread violence have proved hard to substantiate, as well, though the masses of evacuees endured terrifying and inhumane conditions.

Jimmie Fore, vice president of the state authority that runs the Convention Center, stayed in the building with a core group of 35 employees until Sept. 1, the Thursday after Katrina. He was appalled by what he saw. Thugs hotwired 75 forklifts and electric carts and looted food and booze from every room in the building, but he said he never saw any violent crimes committed, and neither did any of his employees. Some, however, did report seeing armed men roaming the building, and Fore said he heard gunshots in the distance on at about six occasions.

NOPD Capt. Jeff Winn's 20-member SWAT team responded on about 10 occasions to calls from the Convention Center, usually after reports of shots being fired. The group found people huddled in the fetal position, lying flat on the ground to avoid bullets or running for the exits. They also heard stories of gang rapes, armed robberies and other violent crimes, but no victims ever came forward while his officers were in the building, he said.

"What's true and what's not, we don't really know," he said.

Rumors of rampant violence at the Convention Center prompted Louisiana National Guard Lt. Col. Jacques Thibodeaux put together a 1,000-man force of soldiers and police in full battle gear to secure the center Sept. 2 at about noon.

It took only 20 minutes to take control, and soldiers met no resistance, Thibodeaux said. What the soldiers found - elderly people and infants near death without food, water and medicine; crowds living in filth - shocked them more than anything they'd seen in combat zones overseas. But they found no evidence, witnesses or victims of any killings, rapes or beatings, Thibodeaux said.

Another commander at the scene, Lt. Col. John Edwards of the Arkansas National Guard, said the crowd welcomed the soldiers. "It reminded me of the liberation of France in World War II. There were people cheering; one boy even saluted," he said. "We never - never once - encountered any hostility."

One widely circulated tale, told to The Times-Picayune by a slew of evacuees and two Arkansas National Guardsmen, held that "30 or 40 bodies" were stored in a Convention Center freezer. But a formal Arkansas Guard review of the matter later found that no soldier had actually seen the corpses, and that the information came from rumors in the food line for military, police and rescue workers in front of Harrah's New Orleans Casino, said Edwards, who conducted the review.

It's possible more than four people died at the Convention Center. Fore, the center's vice president, said he saw another body outside the building early in the first week after the storm, covered in a shroud on the pavement along Julia Street, near the back of the Convention Center. It's unclear whether that body ended up in the nearby food service entrance, where the four confirmed bodies were found later.

Also, several news organizations reported the body of 91-year-old Booker T. Harris, which sat covered in a chair on Convention Center Boulevard for several days after he died on the back of a truck while being evacuated.

Just one of the dead appeared to be the victim of foul play, said Winn, one of few law enforcement officers who spent any time patrolling the Convention Center before it was secured. Winn, who did the final sweep of the building, said one body appeared to have stab wounds, but he could not be sure. Baldwin also said only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, apparently referring to the same body as Winn described. Bob Johannessen, spokesman for the Department of Health and Hospitals, also confirmed just one suspected homicide at the Convention Center, though he said the victim had been shot, not stabbed.

A Washington Post report quoted another soldier who concluded that three of the four people appeared to have been beaten to death, including an older woman in a wheelchair.

But Spc. Mikel Brooks, an Arkansas Guardsman who said he wheeled the woman's dead body into the food service entrance, said she appeared to have died of natural causes. Brooks went on to say that the woman had expired sitting next to her husband, who shocked him by asking him to bring the wheelchair back.

The Post also cited evacuee Tony Cash and three other unnamed sources saying a young boy died of an asthma attack, but multiple officials could not confirm that death.


One attack thwarted


Reports of dozens of rapes at both facilities - many allegedly involving small children - may forever remain a question mark. Rape is a notoriously underreported crime under ideal circumstances, and tracking down evidence at this point, with evacuees spread all over the country, would be nearly impossible. The same goes for reports of armed robberies at both sites.

Numerous people told The Times-Picayune that they had witnessed rapes, in particular attacks on two young girls in the Superdome ladies room and the killing of one of them, but police and military officials said they know nothing of such an incident.

Soldiers and police did confirm at least one attempted rape of a child. Riley said a man tried to sexually assault a young girl, but was "beaten up" by civilians and apprehended by police. It was unclear if that incident was the one that gained wide currency among evacuees.

Baldwin, the National Guard commander of a special reaction team patrolling the Dome, also said he knew of only one attempted sexual assault of a child - but the details of his story, while similar, differed somewhat from that of Riley. It was unclear last week whether the two men spoke about the same incident.

Soldiers apprehended the assailant after a "commotion" in the bathroom exposed him, Baldwin said, but he knew nothing about the man being beaten. Furthermore, in a detail that raises questions about whether officials have full knowledge of any sex crimes, Baldwin said his men turned over one alleged child molester to New Orleans police - only to find him again inside the Dome two days later, reportedly attempting to molest other children.

"We ran into the same guy a couple days later," he said. "The crowd came to us and said, 'You better do something with this guy or we're going to do something with him.' ... That kind of re-confirmed (the first allegation), when the crowd came to us saying he was putting his hands on kids."

But other accusations that have gained wide currency are more demonstrably false. For instance, no one found the body of a girl - whose age was estimated at anywhere from 7 to 13 - who, according to multiple reports, was raped and killed with a knife to the throat at the Convention Center.

Many evacuees at the Convention Center the morning of Sept. 3 treated the story as gospel, and ticked off further atrocities: a baby trampled to death, multiple child rapes.

Salvatore Hall, standing on the corner of Julia Street and Convention Center Boulevard that day, just before the evacuation, said, "They raped and killed a 10-year-old in the bathroom."

Neither he nor the many people around him who corroborated the killing had seen it themselves.

Talk of rape and killing inside the Dome was so pervasive that it prompted a steady stream of evacuees to begin leaving Aug. 31, braving thigh-high foul waters on Poydras Street. Many said they were headed back to homes in flooded neighborhoods.

"There's people getting raped and killed in there," said Lisa Washington of Algiers, who had come to the Dome with about 25 relatives and friends. "People are getting diseases. It's like we're in Afghanistan. We're fighting for our lives right now."

One of her relatives nodded. "They've had about 14 rapes in there," he said.


The official word


In many cases, authorities gave credibility to portraits of violence broadcast around the world.

Compass told Winfrey on Sept. 6 that "some of the little babies (are) getting raped" in the Dome. Nagin backed it with his own tale of horrors: ''They have people standing out there, have been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people.''

But both men have since pulled back to a degree.

"The information I had at the time, I thought it was credible," Compass said, conceding his earlier statements were false. Asked for the source of the information, Compass said he didn't remember.

Nagin frankly acknowledged that he doesn't know the extent of the mayhem that occurred inside the Dome and the Convention Center - and may never.

"I'm having a hard time getting a good body count," he said.

Compass said rumors had often crippled authorities' response to reported lawlessness, sending badly needed resources to respond to situations that turned out not to exist. He offered his own intensely personal example: The day after the storm, he heard "some civilians" talking about how a band of armed thugs had invaded the Ritz-Carlton hotel and started raping women - including his 24-year-old daughter, who stayed there through the storm. He rushed to the scene only to find that although a group of men had tried to enter the hotel, they weren't armed and were easily turned back by police.

Compass, however, promulgated some of the unfounded rumors himself, in interviews in which he characterized himself and his officers as outgunned warriors taking out armed bands of thugs at every turn.

"People would be shooting at us, and we couldn't shoot back because of the families," Compass told a reporter from the (Bridgeport) Connecticut Post who interviewed him at the Saints' Monday Night Football game in New York, where he was the guest of NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. "All we could do is rush toward the flash."

Compass added that he and his officers succeeded in wrestling 30 weapons from criminals using the follow-the-muzzle-flash technique, the story said.

"We got 30 that way," Compass was quoted as saying.

Asked about the muzzle-flash story last week, Compass said, "That really happened" to Winn's SWAT team at the Convention Center.

But Winn, when asked about alleged shootouts in a separate interview, said his unit saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots only one time. Despite aggressively frisking a number of suspects, the team recovered no weapons. His unit never found anyone who had been shot.

Many soldiers and humanitarian workers now agree that although a number of bad actors committed violent or criminal acts, the evacuees responded well considering the hell they endured.

"These people - our people - did nothing wrong," said Sherry Watters of the state Department of Social Services, who was working with the medical unit at the Dome and noted the crowd's mounting frustration. "No human should have to live like that for even a minute."


Crowds pitch in


As the authorities finally mobilized buses to evacuate the Dome on Sept. 2, many evacuees were nearing the breaking point. Baldwin said soldiers could not have controlled the crowd much longer. They ejected a handful of people attempting to start a riot, screaming at soldiers and pushing crowds to revolt.

"We're not prisoners of war - y'all are treating us like evacuees and detainees!" he recalled one of them shouting.

But many others sought to quiet such voices. On the deck outside the Dome on Sept. 1, the day before buses arrived, preachers took it upon themselves to lead the agitated crowd in prayer and song.

"Everybody needs to help the soldiers," Baldwin recalled one of them saying. "We're all family here."

About 15 others joined the medical operation, as people collapsed from heat and exhaustion every few minutes, Baldwin said.

"Some of these guys look like thugs, with pants hanging down around their asses," he said. "But they were working their asses off, grabbing litters and running with people to the (New Orleans) Arena" next door, which housed the medical operation.

As the Dome cleared out Sept. 3, Beron, the National Guard commander, fashioned a plan to deal with the dead. He knew of the six bodies in the freezer, but expected far more. He and an Ohio National Guard commander sent 450 Ohio troops to search every nook of the Dome, top to bottom. They told them to mark locations of bodies on a map of the Dome, to rope off suspected crime scenes, and leave a chemical light sticks next to each one so they could be retrieved later.

"I fully expected to find more bodies, both homicides and natural causes," he said.

They found nothing.

[sachmo71]

Can you link to the article, please?

[HomerJSimpson]

Sure:

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tporlea..._09_26.html#bs

[JonInMiddleGA]

Boy is this one predictable -- the media will quickly be faulted for believing "unreliable sources" ... like the police chief & the mayor.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Boy is this one predictable -- the media will quickly be faulted for believing "unreliable sources" ... like the police chief & the mayor.

No, the Police Chief and Mayor is at fault for spreading rumors when all they needed to do was go and look for themselves.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

No, the Police Chief and Mayor is at fault for spreading rumors when all they needed to do was go and look for themselves.

Okay, you know that and I know that ... but watch & see how it gets spun (overall, not just talking about here).

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Okay, you know that and I know that ... but watch & see how it gets spun (overall, not just talking about here).

I don't disagree. That will be the spin. Even Oprah reported this crap, but there will be no criticism of Saint Oprah.

[sachmo71]

thanks!

[Cringer]

It's a cover up. COVER UP!!!!!!!! The dead were all tossed into the water and floated off to other parts of the city. And the men in black came in and used that memory thing they have to change what these people in the article believe.

After all, we are talking about 20,000-30,000 people. Mostly black people, we know that they had to be violent.

[Subby]

It doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe and folks want to believe the worst imaginable when it comes to the Superdome and the Convention Center.

[cartman]

This bears all the signatures of a classic Karl Rove spin. But what does he have to do with this? Oh wait, that's right, he's the one tasked with heading up the Katrina relief effort.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by cartman

This bears all the signatures of a classic Karl Rove spin. But what does he have to do with this? Oh wait, that's right, he's the one tasked with heading up the Katrina relief effort.

Yup. He personally hid all of the bodies. Shoot, he probably ate them.

And we all know Mayor Nagin and the other NO officials sited in the article are big supporters of the president and would collude with Rove in the cover up.

It is funny how I've seen the left suggest this is some Rove trick, while the right suggest this is cover-up to make the locals look better. I think people are ready to believe the worst when your dealing with certain groups.

[sachmo71]

Another thing to keep in mind about towns with very close-knit, old neighborhoods...rumor is king. It does not surprise me that rumors got out of hand and were believed, especially when you throw in the chaos of the situation.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

It is funny how I've seen the left suggest this is some Rove trick, while the right suggest this is cover-up to make the locals look better. I think people are ready to believe the worst when your dealing with certain groups.

It's funny how you suggest I'm on the left. I'm pretty much a centrist. In those political compass things we do every once in a while, I'm almost always one block off of the center.

I think people automatically pigeonhole someone if they say something detrimental at all about someone on "their" side.

If you can't see this is following the classic Karl Rove pattern, then either you don't want to see it, or are unfamiliar with his pattern of working. First, you wait for the situation to blow over. Then you start to question reports and events that are corollary to the core problem, deflecting the focus away from the core. Then once you get people to find chinks in the armor of the corollary statements, you pound away at those to make the people appear unreliable, and once you do that, you start to make statements that the core problem really wasn't that bad, since unreliable and uninformed people told you about them.

The issue isn't that maybe the looting and lawlessness wasn't as bad as initially reported. The issue is that the enviornment was ripe for that to have happened, and wasn't all that unlikely to have occured. There was no local, state, or federal authority presence until several days after the storm had hit. That is what the issue is, not whether 250 people saw the same crime occur and it was reported 250 times. The crimes occured due to a lack of authority being present on the ground.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

The crimes occured due to a lack of authority being present on the ground.

Which is the responsibility of the city of New Orleans first, and the state of Louisiana second.

Hey, come to think of it, I agree with you then ... let's put the blame squarely where it belongs.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by story

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities had confirmed only four murders in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina - making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year. Jordan expressed outrage at reports from many national media outlets that suffering flood victims had turned into mobs of unchecked savages.

Sorry, I know this probably is one of those "go to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200" things, but I had to chuckle that the bolded just seems so calm and matter-of-fact. "Four murders is a normal week here, nothing to see, move along." Don't get me wrong, Houston was like that, too, but double to triple the numbers, but it just seems so callously mentioned.

Ok, I guess I'll make a real observation now. Four can be a statistical anomaly- one guy could have gone nuts and killed 4 people. But the city was deserted so it wasn't quite a "typical" week nor was there the typical action, so that's a bit of a misleading line. It's a typical week if there's 1.3M people in the city with all the related jealous spouse kills, gangland murders, and mafia hits but the city was abandoned so it's not quite the same thing.

SI

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which is the responsibility of the city of New Orleans first, and the state of Louisiana second.

Hey, come to think of it, I agree with you then ... let's put the blame squarely where it belongs.

No blame, but let's address what the real problems and shortcomings were, and see what we can do to prevent them happening in the future. Agencies at all levels were caught badly off guard by the scope of the disaster, the core question is why.

Spin from anyone doesn't help to answer that.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which is the responsibility of the city of New Orleans first, and the state of Louisiana second.

Hey, come to think of it, I agree with you then ... let's put the blame squarely where it belongs.

If you beleive that police matters should be left to locals and that the federal criminal code/police force should be decreased by about 95% (taking out everything except crimes on federal land, tax and securities crime, and actual interstate criminal trafficing) then we actually agree on something.

Ironically, though, I don't agree with your stated premise. I think that Natural Disasters of this level do require a national police presence to restore/maintain order. It would be a huge waste to expect every state and every city to maintain a standing police force for disasters that come every 50 years or so.

It would seem to save money and make sense to have federal employees who are ready to go to L.A. when the big one hits and New Orleans when the hurricane hits and New York when the terrorists attack, etc.. The alternative is for each city to keep people on the payroll to respond to the disasters.

And, if we decide that the fed is not going to get involved in rescue/recovery after a natrual disaster, we should make that clear so that state and cities do not make their budgets expecting help to be there when it won't.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by cartman

No blame, but let's address what the real problems and shortcomings were, and see what we can do to prevent them happening in the future. Agencies at all levels were caught badly off guard by the scope of the disaster, the core question is why.

Spin from anyone doesn't help to answer that.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Lots of people fucked up big time. We could use this disaster as a chance to really evaluate what went wrong and how to fix it. We could save thousands of lives come the next Katrina or 9/11 or whatever.

Instead, we will have Dems trying to show how "Bush hates all black people" and Repubs. trying to show how every single problem can be traced back to a Democrat and everyone will spin their findings and we won't learn shit.

[sterlingice]

I don't remember *any* reports of lots of murders inside the Superdome, as the article claims. I remember the Superdome was more or less normal, as much as can be during this whole incident. There were reports of a couple of suicides and elderly deaths but the military in there was keeping things under control. I'd love to see them post a couple of links or reports to back up these wild claims and not from billyrefugee69's blog, either. I've gotta say that smacks of spin, as cartman was suggesting.

No one knew anything about the Convention Center, it seemed. That was a whole other ball of wax. There were lots of reports but no one actually there making reports- everything was based off of rumor.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

No blame, but let's address what the real problems and shortcomings were, and see what we can do to prevent them happening in the future.

If you can figure out how to prevent a Cat 5 hurricane, I'm all ears.

Beyond that though, the truth is that the spin battle has already started & in the grand scheme of things, it's infinitely more important that it be won by the right side.

The truth is that the "truth", the actual unvarnished facts about the aftermath of Katrina, will never be known, or at least they'll never be without at least the perspective we all bring to the table with us when looking at them. Good, bad, indifferent, that's the reality of the situation & and that's the playing field on which we have to operate.

Most everybody, I suspect, has their own beliefs already about the causes of any shortcomings in the post-event period (or for that matter, in the pre-event period). Nothing we're going to see, hear, read, etc. is likely to move the needle on those things either, not in any meaningful amount.

For me, the most important thing is not letting the event deter the nation from the course its been on over the past several years. Next in line behind that would be influencing the course of federal funding sent to the area, particularly the New Orelans area, in both amount & spending priorities. Somewhere far down the list is any sort of "getting to the bottom of things" since that's something that a) isn't going to happen in a meaningful way & b)
wouldn't change anything in a meaningful way, not for Katrina victims nor for the next victims of a Cat 5 storm. (The latter because of the layers of competing bureacracies, turf battles, and political motivations that stand between procedural changes & the next eventual victims).

[cartman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If you can figure out how to prevent a Cat 5 hurricane, I'm all ears.

There is no way to prevent a Cat 5 hurricane. But there is a warning period where you can prepare. And it wasn't the hurricane, per se, that caused the New Orleans damage, it was the levees breaking that flooded the city. The hurricane itself caused much more damage to the Mississippi Gulf Coast.

If this was the first test of the new Homeland Security structure, then it was a miserable failure. We won't have any warning if there is a chemical, biological, nuclear, or some other kind of large scale terrorist attack. How is winning a "spin battle" going to help how we respond to a future event like that?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cartman

If this was the first test of the new Homeland Security structure, then it was a miserable failure. We won't have any warning if there is a chemical, biological, nuclear, or some other kind of large scale terrorist attack. How is winning a "spin battle" going to help how we respond to a future event like that?

1) First, far better that we focus our attention on reducing those threats than on recovering from the event.

2) Next, if anybody thought (prior to Katrina) we were equipped to respond in a fashion that would produce minimal disruption/loss of life and/or property, etc. to a large scale terrorist event, then they were a damned fool. Truth is, there's only so much that can be done to minimize the impact of certain events, there's not a foolproof no-muss, no-fuss after action plan for some things.

Now, that said, can the process be made more effective & more efficient? Heck, I'd say you might always be able to improve on a plan, hindsight is often pretty valuable in that regard. But the most efficient & effective plans aren't always practical for various reasons, nor are they politically acceptable.
(note: I'm applying that the full range of the spectrum, not at all limiting it to either side of the aisle).

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by cartman

It's funny how you suggest I'm on the left. I'm pretty much a centrist. In those political compass things we do every once in a while, I'm almost always one block off of the center.

My quote was that it was funny that I have seen many on the left make this claim, not saying you were on the left. You were just falling for the same "conspiracy thoery" thinking. I know a lot about Rove and despise him, but even he can't make bodies disappear before the eyes of hundreds of reporters. Your theory is silly bunk.

I think people automatically pigeonhole someone if they say something detrimental at all about someone on "their" side.

And what side am I on? I think the Right spin and the Left spin on this report is bunk. The report I don't find as spin at all, but clear facts in the face of groundless rumors.

If you can't see this is following the classic Karl Rove pattern, then either you don't want to see it, or are unfamiliar with his pattern of working. First, you wait for the situation to blow over. Then you start to question reports and events that are corollary to the core problem, deflecting the focus away from the core. Then once you get people to find chinks in the armor of the corollary statements, you pound away at those to make the people appear unreliable, and once you do that, you start to make statements that the core problem really wasn't that bad, since unreliable and uninformed people told you about them.

The issue isn't that maybe the looting and lawlessness wasn't as bad as initially reported. The issue is that the enviornment was ripe for that to have happened, and wasn't all that unlikely to have occured. There was no local, state, or federal authority presence until several days after the storm had hit. That is what the issue is, not whether 250 people saw the same crime occur and it was reported 250 times. The crimes occured due to a lack of authority being present on the ground.

I am not denying that the envoronment was ripe for looting, and I do think the federal governmnt bares the blunt of the blame. I also think that this report is completely true in that rumor was reported as fact by many people in this situation to further their own agenda, and it is sad that there are many in America, both left and right, that are showing a subtle form of racism continuing to believe the very worse in the people of New Orleans in the face of hard facts.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

I don't disagree. That will be the spin. Even Oprah reported this crap, but there will be no criticism of Saint Oprah.

She's almost as bad as Starr Jones.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by cartman

If this was the first test of the new Homeland Security structure, then it was a miserable failure. We won't have any warning if there is a chemical, biological, nuclear, or some other kind of large scale terrorist attack. How is winning a "spin battle" going to help how we respond to a future event like that?

This reminded me of a commercial that was on yesterday. It was in the "days" of King Arthur and they said that there was somebody threatening them. A guy said that they should create a catapault...they asked him what they should throw at the enemy. He responded with a huge sack of money. The king said, "So, we should throw money at the problem?"

That's what the Homeland Defense is. Throwing money at the problem and seeing if it can stick to the wall.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

My quote was that it was funny that I have seen many on the left make this claim, not saying you were on the left. You were just falling for the same "conspiracy thoery" thinking. I know a lot about Rove and despise him, but even he can't make bodies disappear before the eyes of hundreds of reporters. Your theory is silly bunk.

Where did I ever state that Karl Rove hid bodies? If you are trying to say I said that, then you are way off base. Please point out in my previous posts where I made this claim.

My point is that stories are starting to show up more and more in the media that are deflecting focus away from the root cause of the problem, and that is a signature tactic of the Rove media machine. If people start arguing if there were 2 people killed, 50 people killed, or 1,000 people killed, that is exactly the outcome that is hoped for, instead of dicussions on the root causes. That, my friend, is very far from silly bunk. It doesn't solve the problem, he is just trying to make his boss look better, not focus on the reconstruction of New Orleans, which you would assume his role is supposed to be, based on his being named the lead of the reconstruction effort.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by cartman

Where did I ever state that Karl Rove hid bodies? If you are trying to say I said that, then you are way off base. Please point out in my previous posts where I made this claim.

My point is that stories are starting to show up more and more in the media that are deflecting focus away from the root cause of the problem, and that is a signature tactic of the Rove media machine. If people start arguing if there were 2 people killed, 50 people killed, or 1,000 people killed, that is exactly the outcome that is hoped for, instead of dicussions on the root causes. That, my friend, is very far from silly bunk. It doesn't solve the problem, he is just trying to make his boss look better, not focus on the reconstruction of New Orleans, which you would assume his role is supposed to be, based on his being named the lead of the reconstruction effort.

To solve a problem, you must have a true assesment of a problem. This article was about clearing up false claims of many murders and rapes within the Superdome and the Congress center. They never happened. Your suggesting this is some kind of Rove ploy, then that would mean somewhere there are bodies of those who murdered hidden somewhere.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

To solve a problem, you must have a true assesment of a problem. This article was about clearing up false claims of many murders and rapes within the Superdome and the Congress center. They never happened. Your suggesting this is some kind of Rove ploy, then that would mean somewhere there are bodies of those who murdered hidden somewhere.

There were lots of bodies found all over New Orleans, MEs are still doing autopsies to determine causes of death. I'm by no means stating that every body found was a murder, but there were quite a few bodies found that obviously were victims of foul play. This is a question where all of the answers are not yet available. Also, would there be a body left behind after a rape?

If you would have read my original post, I stated where I thought that the overstatement of claims came from. I didn't state that Karl Rove hid bodies. That is just a ludicrous claim that doesn't add anything to the discussion. I stated that with the crowded, chaotic conditions, that if a group of people all witnessed a single crime, and then afterwards different people from that group were interviewed at different times by different reporters, it could easily have been assumed that they all saw different crimes, not 50 reports of the same crime.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

To solve a problem, you must have a true assesment of a problem.

I disagree. Truth has nothing to do with going after the opposition.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by cartman

There were lots of bodies found all over New Orleans, MEs are still doing autopsies to determine causes of death. I'm by no means stating that every body found was a murder, but there were quite a few bodies found that obviously were victims of foul play. This is a question where all of the answers are not yet available. Also, would there be a body left behind after a rape?

If you would have read my original post, I stated where I thought that the overstatement of claims came from. I didn't state that Karl Rove hid bodies. That is just a ludicrous claim that doesn't add anything to the discussion. I stated that with the crowded, chaotic conditions, that if a group of people all witnessed a single crime, and then afterwards different people from that group were interviewed at different times by different reporters, it could easily have been assumed that they all saw different crimes, not 50 reports of the same crime.

But this article is about the Superdome and Congress center specifically. Did someone come in and remove those bodies without being seen? That's the point of what is being written, not some "poltical spin." What you are doing is spin. Instead of taking this for what it is, your trying to put some sinister plot on it. Maybe this is actually a case where the newspaper was actually trying to do their job? Is that really so far fetched?

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I disagree. Truth has nothing to do with going after the opposition.

I'm getting that picture. "Truth" is just spin. I guess that makes "spin" truth.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

But this article is about the Superdome and Congress center specifically. Did someone come in and remove those bodies without being seen? That's the point of what is being written, not some "poltical spin." What you are doing is spin. Instead of taking this for what it is, your trying to put some sinister plot on it. Maybe this is actually a case where the newspaper was actually trying to do their job? Is that really so far fetched?

This is just going in circles. I never once stated that you were wrong, except where you put words in my mouth. You are inferring there were no bodies found, since you are trying to say that I'm inferring that "mysterious forces" removed bodies, but the article clearly states there were bodies found at both sites. I'm not a ME, so I can't say why those people died. Once the ME issues their findings, then that will provide answers.

I have serious reservations about Karl Rove being put in charge of the reconstruction effort. What experience does he have in the area of reconstruction? None whatsoever. His job for the last 30 years has been as a political advisor, to help and try to get his clients elected and he is a master of damage control. Some call that spin. If this was the only article written is this manner, I'd be much more inclined to believe it. But there has been, over the past week or or, many articles in the same vein and talking points on talk shows taking the same tact. That to me speaks of a well structured media campaign.

Neither one of our opinions are that far fetched, and I'm sure neither is 100% correct. As with almost everything, the truth is a mixture of the two.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by cartman

This is just going in circles. I never once stated that you were wrong, except where you put words in my mouth. You are inferring there were no bodies found, since you are trying to say that I'm inferring that "mysterious forces" removed bodies, but the article clearly states there were bodies found at both sites. I'm not a ME, so I can't say why those people died. Once the ME issues their findings, then that will provide answers.

I have serious reservations about Karl Rove being put in charge of the reconstruction effort. What experience does he have in the area of reconstruction? None whatsoever. His job for the last 30 years has been as a political advisor, to help and try to get his clients elected and he is a master of damage control. Some call that spin. If this was the only article written is this manner, I'd be much more inclined to believe it. But there has been, over the past week or or, many articles in the same vein and talking points on talk shows taking the same tact. That to me speaks of a well structured media campaign.

Neither one of our opinions are that far fetched, and I'm sure neither is 100% correct. As with almost everything, the truth is a mixture of the two.

Actually, the article states that only one of the bodies found at the Congress center site showed signs of foul play, and none at the Superdome (except the much reported suicide). Did you actually read the article?

I agree that Rove has no qualifications for the position he was put in, but it still doesn't call into question this article (which, if this a Rove "spinner", he must be truly super-naturally evil to be able to force a paper that hates the administration to run it on their front cover, and forcing all of the Dems in the article to go against ther own best interest to agree with the report).

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

But this article is about the Superdome and Congress center specifically. Did someone come in and remove those bodies without being seen? That's the point of what is being written, not some "poltical spin." What you are doing is spin. Instead of taking this for what it is, your trying to put some sinister plot on it. Maybe this is actually a case where the newspaper was actually trying to do their job? Is that really so far fetched?

Meanwhile, going unanswered earlier in the thread (while this keeps being deflected on Cartman who didn't once suggest a body coverup but that people are now making a bigger deal and claiming bigger and wild eyed reports than before)...

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I don't remember *any* reports of lots of murders inside the Superdome, as the article claims. I remember the Superdome was more or less normal, as much as can be during this whole incident. There were reports of a couple of suicides and elderly deaths but the military in there was keeping things under control. I'd love to see them post a couple of links or reports to back up these wild claims and not from billyrefugee69's blog, either. I've gotta say that smacks of spin, as cartman was suggesting.

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cartman

I have serious reservations about Karl Rove being put in charge of the reconstruction effort. What experience does he have in the area of reconstruction? None whatsoever. His job for the last 30 years has been as a political advisor, to help and try to get his clients elected and he is a master of damage control. Some call that spin. If this was the only article written is this manner, I'd be much more inclined to believe it. But there has been, over the past week or or, many articles in the same vein and talking points on talk shows taking the same tact. That to me speaks of a well structured media campaign.

hmm... strange you should mention that when this is today's top headline on all 3 major news sites

Brown: 'I know what I'm doing'


Former FEMA director Michael Brown today defended his role in responding to Hurricane Katrina and put much of the blame for coordination failures on Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin. Brown rejected accusations he was too inexperienced for the job. "I know what I'm doing, and I think I do a pretty darn good job of it," Brown said.

SI

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Meanwhile, going unanswered earlier in the thread (while this keeps being deflected on Cartman who didn't once suggest a body coverup but that people are now making a bigger deal and claiming bigger and wild eyed reports than before)...


SI

Then you weren't paying attention. I heard many a report claiming bodies piling up in both the Superdome and the Congress center. There were claims of repeated rapes in both places. Do a google search of the days following the storm and you'll find them.

[HomerJSimpson]

Dola: As a matter fact, just simply read the many, many page thread on this messageboard that put up numerous new reports on this.

[JonInMiddleGA]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050927/D8CSQOJO0.html

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - Police Superintendent Eddie Compass resigned Tuesday after four turbulent weeks in which the police force was wracked by desertions and disorganization in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath.

"I served this department for 26 years and have taken it through some of the toughest times of its history. Every man in a leadership position must know when it's time to hand over the reins," Compass said at a news conference. "I'll be going on in another direction that God has for me."

As the city slipped into anarchy during the first few days after Katrina, the 1,700-member police department itself suffered a crisis. Many officers deserted their posts, and some were accused of joining in the looting that broke out. Two officers Compass described as friends committed suicide.

Neither Compass nor Mayor Ray Nagin would say whether Compass was pressured to resign.

[rexallllsc]

When does Nagin resign?

[chinaski]

...

Originally Posted by me on the 2nd

But thats you and you are lapping up the chaos/looting reports. Ive seen multiple reports LIVE from the Convention center, every reporter says "The reports of violence are FALSE, there are no shootings, there is no chaos!" Ive heard that MULTIPLE times, from every anchor to Harry Freaking Connick Jr. The Mayor of New Orleans even said its highly exaggerated. Right this very second im watching a MSNBC reporter live from the convention center, he just watched another person DIE right in front of him AND there still hasnt been a bus... in 5 days! There are 20,000 people there, with no food or water. Where are the heli drops? One report of a 'sniper' that does no damage in any form and it still remains unconfirmed, yet that LONE rumor is keeping relief workers away?? BULLSHIT.

I believe the looting/chaos/armed thug hysteria is perpetuated by some inherint subconscious racism/classism, pure and simple. You guys continue to talk about. Its bullshit. Its disgusting the news media even mentions it, but its expected since its sooo 'sensational', but you and the MSM are pissing in the faces of every single survivor by creating the impression New Orleans is overrun with "wild eyed natives".

[Wolfpack]

Originally Posted by chinaski

The Mayor of New Orleans even said its highly exaggerated.

The same mayor who touted the "10,000 dead" line?

[chinaski]

Originally Posted by Wolfpack

The same mayor who touted the "10,000 dead" line?

Being in the middle of all that destruction, do you really think 10,000 dead was a far fetched estimate? Think about circumstances, put yourself into that position. I never believed it would be that high, but at the same time I didnt even bat an eyelash when he said 10k could be dead. If i was mayor of a city in the middle of all this destruction, having no idea how many people left the city, knowing most of it is under 9ft of water, and knowing you need help here NOW, im not going to lowball a death count number. The 10k is a product of how desperate the situation was. There are many things to fault Nagin on, but over estimating the dead is not even close to one of them.